Balance Changes In Beta Patch

TheShiroOfDalton

Hidden in the comments CA_Duck reveals that the current beta patch also contains some unit balancing:

LIZARDMEN

Dread Saurians (all):
Tweaks to attack animations to help melee targeting
+3000 mass
+1000 hit points (on ultra)
+0.5 acceleration
+50 building damage

Dread Saurian: -100 cost

Shredder of Lustria: -100 cost

Kroq-Gar on Grym-loq: -0.4 seconds melee attack interval

Razordons (all):
-10 projectile muzzle velocity
+10 projectile range
+10 projectile calibration distance
-1 second base reload time

Nakai the Wanderer: -100 cost


EMPIRE

War Wagons: -50 cost

War Wagons (Mortar): -100 cost

The Black Lions: +100 cost

Markus Wulfhart:
-7 melee defence
-18% ap projectile damage
-17% base projectile damage
+0.5 projectile calibration area (+100%)
-70 marksmanship bonus
Changed projectile type from artillery to arrow (can be blocked by shields and applies a smaller morale penalty)


ABILITIES

Kill Shot
-45% ap projectile damage
-45% base projectile damage
-33% bonus vs large
Changed projectile type from artillery to arrow (can be blocked by shields and applies a smaller morale penalty)
Number of uses changed from 3 to 2

Executioner
-50% ap projectile damage
-45% base projectile damage
-33% bonus vs large
Changed projectile type from artillery to arrow (can be blocked by shields and applies a smaller morale penalty)

Amber Bow
-24% ap projectile damage
-40% base projectile damage
-17% bonus vs large
+0.4 projectile calibration area (+400%)
-75% explosion detonation radius
-75% explosion detonation speed

Hand of Gods
-25% projectile calibration area
https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-ii-patch-beta/

So, what's everyone's thoughts about this? Looks like Markus caught a nasty facefull here.

Pokemonsdude

🦀🦀🦀 MARKUS IS GONE 🦀🦀🦀

IMaybo

i think it can be too radical

Parmigiano

Markus will still be viable if they added tracking to his arrows.

Lizardmen gameplay is going to be imbalanced, favored matchups got buffed.

Seldkam

Oof Markus you pooor poor man. Not that I wanted him to stay the same but wowie. The hammer has come down, it looks like.

Energyzed#6772

All lizardmen changes seem on the good direction. I would have added more units on the balance changes, but taking into account that its as a small patch to balance the new DLC stuff its fine.
I will just add that i think that sacred Kroxis might need +2MD. Same as Kroq gar on Grymlock, but at least he is finally getting some love.

FerrousTarkus

Good ridance Markus OPheart! 👋

TheShiroOfDalton

FerrousTarkus said:

Good ridance Markus OPheart! 👋

There's fixing a broken character and then there's shredding him to bits. Looks like Markus has been obliterated.

Asamu#6386

Seems fine for the most part. I like the LM changes. Not sure if it's enough for Razordons, but they're a bit of a niche unit anyway, and can be pretty strong in certain match ups.

RIP Markus though. Abilities getting blocked 60% vs someone like Gor Rok is a pretty big deal, and those ability damage nerfs are huge. He might still see some use because nets are busted though. Hopefully they add a separate "large" category for monsters in the festag patch so they can fix projectile abilities and magic to be useful against monsters without being broken vs foot/cav heroes.

There are a bunch of other tweaks I'd like to see, but those are minor. They're addressing the major concerns.

Pippington#5795

Shield characters (or at least, characters with silver shields) are generally pretty niche in themselves though. It's nice to see that niche being protected - Markus will still not be shield-blocked vs more on-meta lord choices.

Seldkam

Pippington said:

Shield characters (or at least, characters with silver shields) are generally pretty niche in themselves though. It's nice to see that niche being protected - Markus will still not be shield-blocked vs more on-meta lord choices.

Sigvald is top tier competitive I'll have you know.

Pippington#5795

i'm sorry sigvald please don't be handsome at me

JDog91

Glad to see some Dread Saurian buffs, but the price reduction was overkill.

glosskilos#4009

Ephraim_Dalton said:

FerrousTarkus said:

Good ridance Markus OPheart! 👋

There's fixing a broken character and then there's shredding him to bits. Looks like Markus has been obliterated.

He still has a bound aoe net, that alone will make him worth it sometimes.

TheShiroOfDalton

glosskilos said:

Ephraim_Dalton said:

FerrousTarkus said:

Good ridance Markus OPheart! 👋

There's fixing a broken character and then there's shredding him to bits. Looks like Markus has been obliterated.

He still has a bound aoe net, that alone will make him worth it sometimes.

I bet a Light Mage with Net is cheaper and probably also more useful.

Paradoxend#4347

Markus nerfed top much??? Maybe
In this case Markus Will be buffed next patch and gain a balancend status

OrkLads

Looks good.

Markus either needed to be shredded or Alith Anar needed to be given insane buffs. Anything else made no sense from a lore perspective, you cant have some random human hunter be better than the Shadow King. If Markus is too weak now he can be made a bit cheaper in a following patch. But he'll still have a good ranged attack and net so likely still useful.

Wyvern2

My take is
DS changes - good they fixed QoL, bad that they dropped cost without waiting to see if fixing the bugs helped it, especially the normal one.

Rest of lizard changes good or OK

War Wagon change - Mockery, -50 gold on a 950 gold unit that objectively isn't worth more than 600-650 is a poor joke. They need real buffs and real fixes.
War Wagon mortar - good change, the unit was near good, -100 will probably make it nice.
Black Lion - +100 cost doesn't fix the 6000 damage it lays down within 10 seconds of setting up. The unit needs RoF drops, not cost bumps.
Wulfhart - Big Oof, the guy needed a nerf, but the loss of something like 30-50% of his ability damage, nearly 20% of normal damage and the loss in shield bypass seems overboard.

DatHomieSilverSurfer#4822

Markus has suffered the fate of many an OP dlc unit before him. RIP, kind sir, and may your pick rate find peace in the single digits

fan3982173917524862#7883

CA needs to stop giving the depth guard treatment to overtuned stuff like AC and now Markus.
I think the DS missile stagger being removed is better than anything else it got.
Nakai needs more love. Fix him getting staggered and knocked down, but that's a general foot lord issue.

Modern_Erasmus#3567

Fantastic patch all around, kudos to the balance team!

Standard War wagons could definitely use a bigger price reduction though. Imo they should be the same as outriders, with the choice being a trade off of damage or kite ability.

Sephlock

Footage of the nerfing process in action, with Markus on the right

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW3rDW_KAaA

stormcloud23#9360

Maybe Markus should be balanced instead of being made useless?

Lotus_Moon#2452

While im glad markus got smashed, i think this is way too much, but its beta patch hopefully not all this changes make it through.

I do think his abilities got hit good, but his base form got hit bit much.

Likewise unnecessary surian buffs and not enough black lions nerfs

wbadger_13

Wulfhart nerfs are completely over the top imo. Yeah the guy was a mp nightmare but i think clipping him down with smaller stat nerfs and removal of amber bow/executioner from mp would have been a better. I've seen how nuts he is for mp but in my campaigns with him he never was as deadly, and with these nerfs he'd be a joke.

I'm not exactly sure what to think of the razordon changes. I assume that the gist is for longer range/faster firing, but idk how the muzzle velocity impacts that exactly. My main problem with these guys is that they never hit anything unless they were at point blank range, similar to handcannons for vamp coast, who at least have spiteful shot to make them useful for a little bit

Delude

The nerfs to Markus are actually pretty minor and much less than I expected. He'll still be at least as powerful as Alith Anar, and still has a WoM-free multi-target net.

Also he has 45 ammo, 50% more than Alith or Glady. He's going to be fine.

Disposable Hero

Delude said:

The nerfs to Markus are actually pretty minor and much less than I expected. He'll still be at least as powerful as Alith Anar, and still has a WoM-free multi-target net.

Also he has 45 ammo, 50% more than Alith or Glady. He's going to be fine.

Without testing I actually think this might be true. I think he's still better than alith tbh. Vanilla attack, net, ammo are still good, then half his skills are still way better than moonbow...

Sarmatianns#6760

Markus nerf is very good news. Wagons buff is very good.

I don't like price increase on Black Lions, I would have like more of an accuracy nerf, especially at long range.

Dread Saurian buffs are, of course, completely unnecessary.

HSK#4606

Ephraim_Dalton said:

FerrousTarkus said:

Good ridance Markus OPheart! 👋

There's fixing a broken character and then there's shredding him to bits. Looks like Markus has been obliterated.

Yes sadly.

Modern_Erasmus#3567

I think Markus will still be good. The whole reason he's been considered broken is that using his two abilities in tandem he can oneshot numerous characters. They've been nerfed by a little under half, so the ability to nuke characters for 60% of their health is still really good. Plus he still has the Hunter's snare, which is three bound overcast nets of amyntok (with a shorter duration but still, that's invaluable).

I think the people saying he's been butchered are overstating things a bit. He'll defintiely still be better than Alith Anar and will absolutely be viable in a number of matchups.

fan3982173917524862#7883

Alith Anar should be buffed and similar units like Markus shouldn't need to be brought down below their level and some more with how big the nerfs to his regular damage and shots are.
Very bad choice by CA and I hope they only nerf his abilities and not his regular damage as well.