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Given the large sample size, and that greenskins were most picked (which means more often first picked), their win rate reflects they faced the most competitive opposing factions and still won more than they lost.
Player skill is by far a larger factor than factions in this game but the 55% win rate indicates that either better players play more greenskins or greenskins have a significant edge. My money is on the latter.
i dont see any support for a claim that GS were picked relatively more often as 1st pick, so again they share this with every other faction. and a 1% higher winrate than the majority of factions does NOT indicate that the faction is OP. these numbers suggests it is strong but far from unbeatable, ie small nerfs are warranted (looking at you Grom) but nothing of the order skaven got.
Like i said i want more data, much depends on numbers of first picks, whether the wins are concentrated in a few matchups or more general, but trying to use this data to support a claim that GS are super OP is just ridiculous.
So, I wanted to make a thread to discuss some stats which I saw on a Turin video last week. It's the win% and number of games of factions played at the warhammer world tournament. These stats are from the second round of games, so all the worst players already got eliminated, but it's still not a true top-tier representation.
Ignore the Brettonia meme, I stole the picture from reddit
Some interesting things for me:
Greenskins being by far the most played. Breaking almost 500 games, while no other faction broke 400. While also being top5 in winrate. High usage and winrate = too easy to play?
Tomb kings are by far the lowest faction as far as winrate goes. Surprising? I am not good at MP but the general vibe I got from forums was that they are quite strong. Yet they have 35% wr and guite a decent amount of games played. Unrelated, they also always seem to lose on Turin's stream in the first round of the faction wars Any ideas why?
Bretonnia is rocking almost 60% winrate, by far the highest. Imo this is way too much for a faction that builds so one-dimensionally. You can never go wrong with Bretonnia, while for some faction you really need to think about what to pick.
Dark elves have 48% wr. I always got the impression from people that they are a bad faction, yet they aren't doing so bad, compared to TK or VC. Or even compared to HE, who have only 44%.
"Bretonnia is rocking almost 60% winrate, by far the highest. Imo this is way too much for a faction that builds so one-dimensionally. You can never go wrong with Bretonnia, while for some faction you really need to think about what to pick."
By far the highest for bret? It is the highest, but WE is right beneath it with , just 0.3 percent less win rate but have 8.2 percent pick rate vs 6.4 pick for bret
How else are they going to win if CA has not given them a new DLC with new units? Its going to be strong one dimensionally or weak one dimensionally
Sounds about right, voast garbage as usual, no surprises there being one of the worst faction in game.
Welf again one of the highest win as expected.
Tombs clocking such a massive pick rate with such loses is pretty weird, is this the one without arkhan playing or something
Then again i think its insufficient data, its barely 3500 games div by 15 factions. U need at least 1,000 ea, 15,000 total for a clearer view.
Empire is near 400 games, while orks going close to 500 and factions like beastman going for just little over 100 games. While voast being a trash faction is as expected.
Liz clocking 350s while helf and skaven going for just 250s
i dont see any support for a claim that GS were picked relatively more often as 1st pick, so again they share this with every other faction. and a 1% higher winrate than the majority of factions does NOT indicate that the faction is OP. these numbers suggests it is strong but far from unbeatable, ie small nerfs are warranted (looking at you Grom) but nothing of the order skaven got.
Like i said i want more data, much depends on numbers of first picks, whether the wins are concentrated in a few matchups or more general, but trying to use this data to support a claim that GS are super OP is just ridiculous.
Of course player skill dominates faction OPness. But if you’re gonna talk abou imbalances at all they’re clearly the top of the heap.
the factions sporting 58% look more OP in this data set, even with the 55% pickrate (of GS pickrate), but yes GS look strong - but not dominating at all. Anyway, we need more data especially on matchup - and more games.
the factions sporting 58% look more OP in this data set, even with the 55% pickrate (of GS pickrate), but yes GS look strong - but not dominating at all. Anyway, we need more data especially on matchup - and more games.
The problem is that it is the most popular faction, the second is Empire with 44.5%. The difference is huge. The fact that the third and fourth factions are equally as strong or more so speaks of imbalance: everybody's picking what's working except for noobs(who pick Empire).
The data show that even in MP the empire is not as good as they always told. Very often chosen seldom won and as i said: Archers completly op so the wood elves become very strong. Arches have an insane range they always hit and they are very agil. Compared to this gunpowder units of the empire are useless. They are slow they have a bad cadence and they are unable to shoot over other regiments and the range is worse.
The data show that even in MP the empire is not as good as they always told. Very often chosen seldom won and as i said: Archers completly op so the wood elves become very strong. Arches have an insane range they always hit and they are very agil. Compared to this gunpowder units of the empire are useless. They are slow they have a bad cadence and they are unable to shoot over other regiments and the range is worse.
second-most picked faction is far more telling than the 45% win rate. What we really need is some benchmark for the average win rate for first picks.
I am more interested in the data from the round that just finished tbh. There were still substantial differences in average player skill and matchup knowledge in the round this data was pulled from, whereas the round that just closed was highly competitive and it felt like the players had a much better idea about how to effectively counterpick etc (at least in my pool).
like...the same would be true of all the other factions, and I would expect an OP faction to have the highest winrate, and a significantly higher winrate than other factions. since most of them have a rate of ~53% and 2 have a rate of ~58%, 54% does not support a claim of GS being OP unless you also claim its the noob faction (which would mean you are claiming the good players are intentionally nerfing themselves...). so...yeah...
You have to take pick rate into account as well. GS is the most picked faction by far (~30% more than the next most popular faction - Lizardmen), and is #4 in win rates. Wood Elves, lizardmen, and Bretonnia are also probably too strong currently.
Tomb Kings is probably a bit UP. Coast I'm not so sure... It's always had a low win rate, even when it was considered the best faction in the game by far, so it's probably hard to play, and that's skewing the stats, though it's probably also a bit UP currently.
Sounds about right, voast garbage as usual, no surprises there being one of the worst faction in game.
Welf again one of the highest win as expected.
Tombs clocking such a massive pick rate with such loses is pretty weird, is this the one without arkhan playing or something
Then again i think its insufficient data, its barely 3500 games div by 15 factions. U need at least 1,000 ea, 15,000 total for a clearer view.
Empire is near 400 games, while orks going close to 500 and factions like beastman going for just little over 100 games. While voast being a trash faction is as expected.
Liz clocking 350s while helf and skaven going for just 250s
The general thought is that high pick rate/low win rate is a first pick faction and low pick rate/high win rate reflects a counterpick faction.
Matchup by matchup data would be helpful though. My own suspicion is that a lot of tomb kings and vampirates low win rates comes from the perception that they have an advantageous matchup against greenskins (and Lizardmen too in the case of tomb kings) when it's really much more even than players think. That would explain how they can have such a low winrate without actually being in a bad spot. But without at the pick/counterpick or matchup data it's hard to read too much into it other than greenskins are the strongest faction at the moment with a positive win rate despite a very high pick rate.
Tombkings not surprised by, lack of sustainable AP feel as hurt them for a while. Probably up there with darkelves as my top picks for worst faction.
WE are always gonna be high tier tons of mobility traded for less armor/no artillery will always be worth it. Easier micro than bretonnia and empire.
Lizardmen I assume has to do with Slann not counting towards SEM cap anymore still bugged for some though but we get foot Mazda!
I don’t agree with coast being OP they trade cavalry for ranged seems bad. Though I do think there aren’t a lot of good coast mains.
I think empire could be the best faction but would have to be in hands of really good cavalry micro player. Maybe one day a bretonnian main will make the switch.
if the stats are before the patch that nerfed skaven and WE that would explain a lot. TK does surprise me, they are a very strong faction, i think a lot of the losses might be against GS. same for EMP really. both empire and coast lack good melee (they have decent but...) Norsca im not surprised.
lol whattt they can ban a player? i thought its suppose to be survival of the fittest
For abusing people and refs in wide range of events and cheating in general (lag spiking people, and using different names to pretend to be someone else when it was stated in the rules that its not permitted).
lol whattt they can ban a player? i thought its suppose to be survival of the fittest
For abusing people and refs in wide range of events and cheating in general (lag spiking people, and using different names to pretend to be someone else when it was stated in the rules that its not permitted).
No it was for being racist. All of that of what you wrote was tolerated up until he sported a racist steam profile
Smaller sample size, with better players. Tomb kings drastically improved in wr%. Vampirates sunk even lower. Surprisingly (?) the faction with the highest winrate are the warriors of chaos. Although greenskins are right after them with a way higher pickrate. Dwarves also have taken a hit.
Overall I think just based on the data it's safe to say greenskings are the number 1 faction atm, probably needing some nerfs.
I assume this is post patch? if so well done on tuning skaven and WE!!! both at 50% winrate
norsca still the whipping boy, TK making a comeback, almost empire still popular and still bad^^ VP still weak dwarf matches my own experience, overtuned units makes for easy wins vs mediocre players, lack of antimobility tools make for annoying losses against better players
and yeah GS more clearly in the lead, but still not overly so. Data still only supports light GS nerfs - unless you at the same time nerf BRET and LZM
Comments
Player skill is by far a larger factor than factions in this game but the 55% win rate indicates that either better players play more greenskins or greenskins have a significant edge. My money is on the latter.
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0 · Disagree AgreeLike i said i want more data, much depends on numbers of first picks, whether the wins are concentrated in a few matchups or more general, but trying to use this data to support a claim that GS are super OP is just ridiculous.
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1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree"Bretonnia is rocking almost 60% winrate, by far the highest. Imo this is way too much for a faction that builds so one-dimensionally. You can never go wrong with Bretonnia, while for some faction you really need to think about what to pick."
By far the highest for bret? It is the highest, but WE is right beneath it with , just 0.3 percent less win rate but have 8.2 percent pick rate vs 6.4 pick for bret
How else are they going to win if CA has not given them a new DLC with new units? Its going to be strong one dimensionally or weak one dimensionally
Know your places, peasants!!!
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1 · Disagree AgreeWelf again one of the highest win as expected.
Tombs clocking such a massive pick rate with such loses is pretty weird, is this the one without arkhan playing or something
Then again i think its insufficient data, its barely 3500 games div by 15 factions.
U need at least 1,000 ea, 15,000 total for a clearer view.
Empire is near 400 games, while orks going close to 500 and factions like beastman going for just little over 100 games. While voast being a trash faction is as expected.
Liz clocking 350s while helf and skaven going for just 250s
Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
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2 · Disagree AgreeThen it's difficult to say too much about the rest of the factions since the degree of first pick/counter pick will taint the data a lot.
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1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeAnyway, we need more data especially on matchup - and more games.
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeAlmost like I called it when their melee front line didn't get any buffs to compensate for the heavy ranged nerfs.
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3 · Disagree AgreeReflects I think what most see the meta Factions and win rates to be.
TK and empire win rates vs pick rates don't surprise me
They don't have op units and don't have one size fits all builds that can reliably perform vs almost all factions
See 3x WW and glady raema spam
See 6x gs skirmish and grom
LIZ are probably the most rounded of the balanced Factions performing to a decent extent but even then overperforming units like chams are a must take
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2 · Disagree 1AgreeVery often chosen seldom won and as i said: Archers completly op so the wood elves become very strong. Arches have an insane range they always hit and they are very agil. Compared to this gunpowder units of the empire are useless. They are slow they have a bad cadence and they are unable to shoot over other regiments and the range is worse.
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeThis was BEFORE SKV AND WE nerfs last patch.
With extremely high pick rate it means a lot of people are just jumping on the hype train.
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3 · Disagree 1AgreeGS is the most picked faction by far (~30% more than the next most popular faction - Lizardmen), and is #4 in win rates.
Wood Elves, lizardmen, and Bretonnia are also probably too strong currently.
Tomb Kings is probably a bit UP. Coast I'm not so sure... It's always had a low win rate, even when it was considered the best faction in the game by far, so it's probably hard to play, and that's skewing the stats, though it's probably also a bit UP currently.
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2 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeTop #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeMatchup by matchup data would be helpful though. My own suspicion is that a lot of tomb kings and vampirates low win rates comes from the perception that they have an advantageous matchup against greenskins (and Lizardmen too in the case of tomb kings) when it's really much more even than players think. That would explain how they can have such a low winrate without actually being in a bad spot. But without at the pick/counterpick or matchup data it's hard to read too much into it other than greenskins are the strongest faction at the moment with a positive win rate despite a very high pick rate.
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3 · Disagree AgreeTop #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
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2 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeWE are always gonna be high tier tons of mobility traded for less armor/no artillery will always be worth it. Easier micro than bretonnia and empire.
Lizardmen I assume has to do with Slann not counting towards SEM cap anymore still bugged for some though but we get foot Mazda!
I don’t agree with coast being OP they trade cavalry for ranged seems bad. Though I do think there aren’t a lot of good coast mains.
I think empire could be the best faction but would have to be in hands of really good cavalry micro player. Maybe one day a bretonnian main will make the switch.
Skaven are just OP.
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0 · Disagree AgreeTK does surprise me, they are a very strong faction, i think a lot of the losses might be against GS. same for EMP really.
both empire and coast lack good melee (they have decent but...)
Norsca im not surprised.
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
2 · Disagree AgreeLol
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0 · Disagree AgreeSmaller sample size, with better players. Tomb kings drastically improved in wr%. Vampirates sunk even lower. Surprisingly (?) the faction with the highest winrate are the warriors of chaos. Although greenskins are right after them with a way higher pickrate. Dwarves also have taken a hit.
Overall I think just based on the data it's safe to say greenskings are the number 1 faction atm, probably needing some nerfs.
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1 · Disagree Agreenorsca still the whipping boy,
TK making a comeback, almost
empire still popular and still bad^^
VP still weak
dwarf matches my own experience, overtuned units makes for easy wins vs mediocre players, lack of antimobility tools make for annoying losses against better players
and yeah GS more clearly in the lead, but still not overly so. Data still only supports light GS nerfs - unless you at the same time nerf BRET and LZM
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0 · 1Disagree Agree