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Kharybdiss

SeldkamSeldkam Senior MemberPosts: 4,104Registered Users
I don't often use dark elf monsters, but I'm sure the black dragon and Hydra have their uses. But what about the kharybdiss? Does anyone use this guy in any builds? It's a cool unit but from what I remember the anti large doesn't make up for the Regen, or that's what I gathered.

Also if anyone actually doesn't think dragons and hydras work as well as I think, let me know, as I've never really found them to work well xP
The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
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Comments

  • DeludeDelude Posts: 297Registered Users
    The Kharibdyss is butt, as far as gold value goes it's an abomination against Khaine.

    You can use it vs VC for burst damage if you manage to net something valuable with witches, but you have to be careful with it because it can't really catch things on its own and if it wanders out of your blob it dies. You're probably better off taking a unit of BG+dreadspears for the cost, but it's really cool looking and it has good burst vs mortis engines and vargulfs.

    You can also take it vs Norsca if you're a gambling man. But that's a little more complicated.

    Also, please, cool it on the DE threads for a little bit. We're not doing half bad right now, and while a few units could use touch ups, (the Kharibdyss, corsairs, bleakswords, dark riders, and in particular HGE), we have many good units such as DR xbows, and BG. Buff too many things at once and you'll make DE OP, which no one wants, because then they'll take away something nice.

    I'd like to focus on getting that executioner buff and see where it lands us. I think it'd be a pretty significant help in some of the harder DE MUs. (Except WE, but I don't know how that MU could really be solved.)
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,228Registered Users
    Well, I would assume there are some uses, but they're few and far between.
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian Posts: 110Registered Users
    I think the problem is it's an Anti-large monster with Hydra animations. Those aren't really suited for dealing large damage to SEMs. Cavalry I find it can be useful, but not any better than the Dark Elves other options.
    Also Abysall Howl is useless.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 322Registered Users
    It's a monster killer too slow to catch any monsters other than a giant, so it often just gets stuck in the frontline where it's not cost-effective at all. It also doesn't trade any better than cost-effectively vs. most other anti-large monsters. It can be viable vs. VC, Chaos and Beastmen though. I'd give it +500 health.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    You can use it to create really strong terror bomb build. So it can be extremely effective vs low LD factions.
  • AristodemosIIAristodemosII Posts: 111Registered Users
    I would be careful about buffing single entity monsters. That can go wrong veeery quickly. Just keep it as it is, worst case it doesn't get used very often, that's not the end of the world.
    Common sense applies.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,287Registered Users
    I think it needs a cost reduction of about 100, maybe 50. It's an okay monster but the hydra is just far more cost effective.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,104Registered Users
    Delude said:

    The Kharibdyss is butt, as far as gold value goes it's an abomination against Khaine.

    You can use it vs VC for burst damage if you manage to net something valuable with witches, but you have to be careful with it because it can't really catch things on its own and if it wanders out of your blob it dies. You're probably better off taking a unit of BG+dreadspears for the cost, but it's really cool looking and it has good burst vs mortis engines and vargulfs.

    You can also take it vs Norsca if you're a gambling man. But that's a little more complicated.

    Also, please, cool it on the DE threads for a little bit. We're not doing half bad right now, and while a few units could use touch ups, (the Kharibdyss, corsairs, bleakswords, dark riders, and in particular HGE), we have many good units such as DR xbows, and BG. Buff too many things at once and you'll make DE OP, which no one wants, because then they'll take away something nice.

    I'd like to focus on getting that executioner buff and see where it lands us. I think it'd be a pretty significant help in some of the harder DE MUs. (Except WE, but I don't know how that MU could really be solved.)

    Can I just say-- instead of talking the talk, how about you actually go and make a thread about another faction then, instead of telling someone else to be quiet? This is a forum bud. Nothing makes less sense than someone telling someone else to not talk on a forum. Talking about buffs to DE will not translate directly to buffs to them, so please-- just let it be.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,287Registered Users
    Kharibdyss: -50 cost, +4 speed
    Hydra: +4 speed, +2 MD, make breath usable in melee
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Loupi_ said:


    Hydra: +4 speed, +2 MD, make breath usable in melee

    Yeah. Buff one of the most picked unit in Everchosen even more. RoR hydra was extremely common and extremely strong in it. It definitely needs buff. Not factions that were not picked even once.
    I would say DE needs only nerfs right now. It is one of the most picked factions in competitive.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,104Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Loupi_ said:


    Hydra: +4 speed, +2 MD, make breath usable in melee

    Yeah. Buff one of the most picked unit in Everchosen even more. RoR hydra was extremely common and extremely strong in it. It definitely needs buff. Not factions that were not picked even once.
    I would say DE needs only nerfs right now. It is one of the most picked factions in competitive.
    Likewise, if you think DE need nerfs, how about you go make a thread about it? Personally I agree hydras don't need a buff, but this is supposed to be about kharybdiss anyways.

    It's pretty clear the kharybdiss needs something though. TBH I'd like to make it faster, that might help get on targets it needs to be on.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,287Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Loupi_ said:


    Hydra: +4 speed, +2 MD, make breath usable in melee

    Yeah. Buff one of the most picked unit in Everchosen even more. RoR hydra was extremely common and extremely strong in it. It definitely needs buff. Not factions that were not picked even once.
    I would say DE needs only nerfs right now. It is one of the most picked factions in competitive.
    Yep I agree it needs some small buffs.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Seldkam said:


    Likewise, if you think DE need nerfs, how about you go make a thread about it?

    How about. No. Kharybdis are a situational unit. I should not be used in the builds where you do not benefit from the massive LD debuff that it provides. Overbuffing it for bringing in other situations is just wrong.
    Does it worth it in all situations? Definitely not.
    Does it worth it in terror bomb builds? Yes. It can be devastating for some factions.
    If units are situational, it is not bad.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,104Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Seldkam said:


    Likewise, if you think DE need nerfs, how about you go make a thread about it?

    How about. No. Kharybdis are a situational unit. I should not be used in the builds where you do not benefit from the massive LD debuff that it provides. Overbuffing it for bringing in other situations is just wrong.
    Does it worth it in all situations? Definitely not.
    Does it worth it in terror bomb builds? Yes. It can be devastating for some factions.
    If units are situational, it is not bad.
    Great so you're paying basically for a -8 leadership penalty. Sounds awful and not worth it ever. Why not bring a dragon at that point, easy rear charging is pretty much as good, plus breath attacks.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,372Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    tank3487 said:

    Seldkam said:


    Likewise, if you think DE need nerfs, how about you go make a thread about it?

    How about. No. Kharybdis are a situational unit. I should not be used in the builds where you do not benefit from the massive LD debuff that it provides. Overbuffing it for bringing in other situations is just wrong.
    Does it worth it in all situations? Definitely not.
    Does it worth it in terror bomb builds? Yes. It can be devastating for some factions.
    If units are situational, it is not bad.
    Great so you're paying basically for a -8 leadership penalty. Sounds awful and not worth it ever. Why not bring a dragon at that point, easy rear charging is pretty much as good, plus breath attacks.
    Yea true, when could an -8 ld penalty on top of fear and terror ever be useful. After all, Dark Elves have such easy matchups into factions that are susceptible to terror like Beastmen, Greenskins, Skaven, Bretonnia, who would ever need that.

    Gotta agree with Tank here, Dark Elves had an extremely solid showing in the Everchosen, easily one of the top 3 factions. Just because they didn't have a matchup where the Kyarabbdis would be good (although Soothsayer could probably have used one when he saw a Dread Saurian + Mazda on Zlaaq + Skink infantry....) doesn't mean it needs buffs.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Seldkam said:


    Great so you're paying basically for a -8 leadership penalty. Sounds awful and not worth it ever. Why not bring a dragon at that point, easy rear charging is pretty much as good, plus breath attacks.

    Cause all this stack. In terror bomb build you -8 LD penalty from Khary, her terror, fear(another -8), some light cav or harpies that do rear charge(or even Lord on Dragon on top of it), LD debuff from magic.

    Basicaly. If dragon would be enough to terror rout Ungor Herd. Kharibdys would be enough to terror rout Gor Herd.
    If dragon would have been enough to terror rout Gor Herd. Kharibdys would be enough to terror rout Bestigors.

    In all cases 8 LD difference mean entire tier of units being terror able target. So it would be really carefull with overbuffing such situational unit.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,104Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Seldkam said:


    Great so you're paying basically for a -8 leadership penalty. Sounds awful and not worth it ever. Why not bring a dragon at that point, easy rear charging is pretty much as good, plus breath attacks.

    Cause all this stack. In terror bomb build you -8 LD penalty from Khary, her terror, fear(another -8), some light cav or harpies that do rear charge(or even Lord on Dragon on top of it), LD debuff from magic.

    Basicaly. If dragon would be enough to terror rout Ungor Herd. Kharibdys would be enough to terror rout Gor Herd.
    If dragon would have been enough to terror rout Gor Herd. Kharibdys would be enough to terror rout Bestigors.

    In all cases 8 LD difference mean entire tier of units being terror able target. So it would be really carefull with overbuffing such situational unit.
    That's an awful lot of resources to terror route something. In fact that's probably about a fourth or fifth of your army funds right there, just to collapse one unit.

    Still not convinced. You can get much better bang for buck by stacking 2x doom and darkness on the whole Frontline for less money too.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,228Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    tank3487 said:

    Seldkam said:


    Great so you're paying basically for a -8 leadership penalty. Sounds awful and not worth it ever. Why not bring a dragon at that point, easy rear charging is pretty much as good, plus breath attacks.

    Cause all this stack. In terror bomb build you -8 LD penalty from Khary, her terror, fear(another -8), some light cav or harpies that do rear charge(or even Lord on Dragon on top of it), LD debuff from magic.

    Basicaly. If dragon would be enough to terror rout Ungor Herd. Kharibdys would be enough to terror rout Gor Herd.
    If dragon would have been enough to terror rout Gor Herd. Kharibdys would be enough to terror rout Bestigors.

    In all cases 8 LD difference mean entire tier of units being terror able target. So it would be really carefull with overbuffing such situational unit.
    That's an awful lot of resources to terror route something. In fact that's probably about a fourth or fifth of your army funds right there, just to collapse one unit.

    Still not convinced. You can get much better bang for buck by stacking 2x doom and darkness on the whole Frontline for less money too.
    You won't collapse one unit, you can collapse an entire flank with it. If there are multiple units in a crucial battle, you can rout chaff and leave important enemy units isolated. RoR spider queen and 2 biguns are scary, but terror rout the biguns and suddenly spider is isolated and very vulnerable.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited October 21
    Seldkam said:


    That's an awful lot of resources to terror route something.

    By something you mean entire infantry frontline for some factions? Vs something like Beastmen it is definitely worth it.
    Seldkam said:


    Still not convinced. You can get much better bang for buck by stacking 2x doom and darkness on the whole Frontline for less money too.

    You make wrong assumptions that Khary are used without doom and darkness. If you go terror bomb build, you stack LD debuffs as much as possible. It is not common, but competitive build at least vs Beastmen that i have seen on tournaments with good effect. This is why buffing Khary are not so easy as you think.

    Maybe i am wrong, but i think only unit with similar strong LD debuff and Terror are Dread Saurian(and LZD has less synergy).
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,228Registered Users
    Potentially you can stack:

    1) Lokhir (-4)
    2) Kharybdiss (-8)
    3) fear (-8)
    4) Doom and Darkness (-8)

    that's -28 right there.

    Then if you rear charge with, let's say harpies, you may get additional LD debuffs with hp loss, and 'losing combat' and 'attacked in the rear'

    And then Terror on top.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,104Registered Users

    Potentially you can stack:

    1) Lokhir (-4)
    2) Kharybdiss (-8)
    3) fear (-8)
    4) Doom and Darkness (-8)

    that's -28 right there.

    Then if you rear charge with, let's say harpies, you may get additional LD debuffs with hp loss, and 'losing combat' and 'attacked in the rear'

    And then Terror on top.

    I could've sworn D+D was -16. Looks like you don't need the kharybdiss then.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,082Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    Potentially you can stack:

    1) Lokhir (-4)
    2) Kharybdiss (-8)
    3) fear (-8)
    4) Doom and Darkness (-8)

    that's -28 right there.

    Then if you rear charge with, let's say harpies, you may get additional LD debuffs with hp loss, and 'losing combat' and 'attacked in the rear'

    And then Terror on top.

    I could've sworn D+D was -16. Looks like you don't need the kharybdiss then.
    Bigger LD debuff = faster unit rout and/or better units rout.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,104Registered Users

    Seldkam said:

    Potentially you can stack:

    1) Lokhir (-4)
    2) Kharybdiss (-8)
    3) fear (-8)
    4) Doom and Darkness (-8)

    that's -28 right there.

    Then if you rear charge with, let's say harpies, you may get additional LD debuffs with hp loss, and 'losing combat' and 'attacked in the rear'

    And then Terror on top.

    I could've sworn D+D was -16. Looks like you don't need the kharybdiss then.
    Bigger LD debuff = faster unit rout and/or better units rout.
    Ok let's say gor herd. 62 LD.

    With all these units attacking, that will easily proc the "50% HP lost in 60 seconds" for -32 LD. 30 LD left. Significantly losing combat -8. 22 LD. -16 D&D. 8 left, then rear charged by harpies. Then there's the %HP lost in the last 4 seconds debuff, probably about 10% HP IF we are being nice. That's them broken. Not even counting fear from dragon which makes much more sense than kharybdiss anyways. Instant terror route.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 381Registered Users
    Hey don't touch my favorite Dark Elf monster. It trades even with Shaggoths if it gets a 1v1, and it kills the RoR Hydra in a 1v1 due to routing it. Obviously magic and skirmishing can introduce a lot of variables but who cares. It's not like it's completely useless if it doesn't get ideal engagements. Leave the Fish Hydra alone!
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,104Registered Users

    Hey don't touch my favorite Dark Elf monster. It trades even with Shaggoths if it gets a 1v1, and it kills the RoR Hydra in a 1v1 due to routing it. Obviously magic and skirmishing can introduce a lot of variables but who cares. It's not like it's completely useless if it doesn't get ideal engagements. Leave the Fish Hydra alone!

    Fair enough, beating a shaggoth even sometimes is impressive. However ... I am surprised you'd even bother trying to contest an anti large game vs chaos. Maybe I haven't given the k-fish enough chances.

    At those saying it's "useful in terror route builds" this is a waste of money. Against orc boys, D&D, harpy rear charge, dragon flank charge, and bleakswords frontal charge route them in about 3 seconds. Against big uns, it's about 8 seconds.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,228Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    Potentially you can stack:

    1) Lokhir (-4)
    2) Kharybdiss (-8)
    3) fear (-8)
    4) Doom and Darkness (-8)

    that's -28 right there.

    Then if you rear charge with, let's say harpies, you may get additional LD debuffs with hp loss, and 'losing combat' and 'attacked in the rear'

    And then Terror on top.

    I could've sworn D+D was -16. Looks like you don't need the kharybdiss then.
    More = better.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,104Registered Users

    Seldkam said:

    Potentially you can stack:

    1) Lokhir (-4)
    2) Kharybdiss (-8)
    3) fear (-8)
    4) Doom and Darkness (-8)

    that's -28 right there.

    Then if you rear charge with, let's say harpies, you may get additional LD debuffs with hp loss, and 'losing combat' and 'attacked in the rear'

    And then Terror on top.

    I could've sworn D+D was -16. Looks like you don't need the kharybdiss then.
    More = better.
    See above. Barring super strong infantry theres no reason for this thing. Even against big uns it's a wash. You could probably make it even faster if you spent money on a better Frontline than bleakswords.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Seldkam said:


    See above. Barring super strong infantry theres no reason for this thing. Even against big uns it's a wash. You could probably make it even faster if you spent money on a better Frontline than bleakswords.

    You forgeting that enemy too has LD modificators. Like Lord neraby, allies on flanks etc. etc.
    And if you manage to terror bestigors on contact it is worth it.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,104Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Seldkam said:


    See above. Barring super strong infantry theres no reason for this thing. Even against big uns it's a wash. You could probably make it even faster if you spent money on a better Frontline than bleakswords.

    You forgeting that enemy too has LD modificators. Like Lord neraby, allies on flanks etc. etc.
    And if you manage to terror bestigors on contact it is worth it.
    Beastmen bring bestigors against DE? A whole Frontline? And the test was taken with the enemy general in encourage distance. Allies on flanks is going to be quickly outdone by stronger and faster enemies nearby, along with flanks exposed, which actually nullifies the flanks secure bonus.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,228Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    Seldkam said:

    Potentially you can stack:

    1) Lokhir (-4)
    2) Kharybdiss (-8)
    3) fear (-8)
    4) Doom and Darkness (-8)

    that's -28 right there.

    Then if you rear charge with, let's say harpies, you may get additional LD debuffs with hp loss, and 'losing combat' and 'attacked in the rear'

    And then Terror on top.

    I could've sworn D+D was -16. Looks like you don't need the kharybdiss then.
    More = better.
    See above. Barring super strong infantry theres no reason for this thing. Even against big uns it's a wash. You could probably make it even faster if you spent money on a better Frontline than bleakswords.
    You are again looking at 1 v 1 situations. In a group fight, units will have different level of health. While it may be enough to rout 1 unit on contact, others may still be in positive leadership, and hold out until help arrives. So, getting that additional -LD can make them rout before help arrives.
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