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Am I imagining it?

ItharusItharus Senior MemberPosts: 7,045Registered Users
Or does the AI simply *always* know to send units (in appropriate force) to *exactly* where your vanguarded stalking units are to discover them? Every. Single. Time. Without. Fail?

Stalking units in general seem as though the AI always knows exactly where they are. It's kind of annoying.

Like... even if you put them in some really stupid out of the way place that makes no tactical sense, the AI goes there. So it's not as if the AI is actually just figuring "gee that's a good spot for an ambush"; it's that they *literally* know where your stalking units are.

Drives me nuts.

Comments

  • MaksboMaksbo Posts: 229Registered Users
    Truth be told.. the AI probably does know... even if it might pretend not to. It's like playing games with kids, you know. You being the kid
  • ArsenicArsenic Posts: 4,562Registered Users
    I've always found stalking units useless on Campaign or Custom for that very reason, so if you're imagining it, it's not just you.
    "Ours is a world of fleeting glory. But it is glory, nonetheless."
  • neodeinosneodeinos Posts: 1,664Registered Users
    Yeah it looks like Stalk is useless against the AI.
  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 1,510Registered Users
    It’s always like that 😂
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 7,045Registered Users
    It's making me mad because I love Dwarf Rangers, thematically, lol.

    Also... I miss the old vanguard... the useful one... before it was pointlessly nerfed into uselessness. It was just about the only thing that made Goblins useful. Then they went and removed it and just gave NGWB stupidly high buffs. Boo.
  • FrostPawFrostPaw Junior Member Posts: 1,064Registered Users
    I've had some success dividing the army up some visible in normal position, then some hiding to the side in the trees. If you hide the entire army though, they just head towards you.

    While I too feel it's cheap to know where you are, if the ai didn't, the ai could spend 20+ minutes wandering aimlessly or just sit and wait for you to show yourself. Both of these are reasonable ideas but they also suck as the player in ambush.
  • 42konyo42konyo Posts: 774Registered Users
    No not always, I've been playing around with it wondering the same thing in my previous campaign and I've noticed that my hidden/vanguard units that are always hidden from the start of the battle tend to be ignored by the AI (specifically skink chameleons and salamander hunting packs), however it does seem like units without stalk will be targeted if they're spotted for just 1 second be it because you still need to move them a few meters into the forest at the start of the battle or if the forest area is spread out causing them to lose hidden status for a second.

    In short, unless you keep your units standing still in areas that hide them the AI tends to spot them and will send units to deal with them, haven't had that happen when keeping them in place until all their units are engaged though so it boils down to guessing exactly the right spot for them in the deployment phase and hope they're not too close to be spotted while the AI moves towards you or too far away to be used in time.
  • CrajohCrajoh Member Posts: 1,459Registered Users
    I don't know about Stalk but I have certainly been able to use terrain (woods) to hide parts of my army which I then bring out to attack the enemy Arty or Archers once the melee battle commences
    Live your life and try to do no harm.

    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 7,045Registered Users
    42konyo said:

    No not always, I've been playing around with it wondering the same thing in my previous campaign and I've noticed that my hidden/vanguard units that are always hidden from the start of the battle tend to be ignored by the AI (specifically skink chameleons and salamander hunting packs), however it does seem like units without stalk will be targeted if they're spotted for just 1 second be it because you still need to move them a few meters into the forest at the start of the battle or if the forest area is spread out causing them to lose hidden status for a second.

    In short, unless you keep your units standing still in areas that hide them the AI tends to spot them and will send units to deal with them, haven't had that happen when keeping them in place until all their units are engaged though so it boils down to guessing exactly the right spot for them in the deployment phase and hope they're not too close to be spotted while the AI moves towards you or too far away to be used in time.

    The case that brought me here today is specifically my dwarf rangers - which have stalk.
  • 42konyo42konyo Posts: 774Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    42konyo said:

    No not always, I've been playing around with it wondering the same thing in my previous campaign and I've noticed that my hidden/vanguard units that are always hidden from the start of the battle tend to be ignored by the AI (specifically skink chameleons and salamander hunting packs), however it does seem like units without stalk will be targeted if they're spotted for just 1 second be it because you still need to move them a few meters into the forest at the start of the battle or if the forest area is spread out causing them to lose hidden status for a second.

    In short, unless you keep your units standing still in areas that hide them the AI tends to spot them and will send units to deal with them, haven't had that happen when keeping them in place until all their units are engaged though so it boils down to guessing exactly the right spot for them in the deployment phase and hope they're not too close to be spotted while the AI moves towards you or too far away to be used in time.

    The case that brought me here today is specifically my dwarf rangers - which have stalk.
    And you don't move them in between deploying and the AI committing to an attack?
    I do always double down btw, I never used stalk on it's own, always hidden in forests out of habbit, maybe that plays a role in the AI not responding to it.
  • buutronbuutron Posts: 54Registered Users
    edited October 22
    I have found that if you move hidden units, even if they still show the hidden icon on the unit card, the enemy will 'see' them and commit troops in that direction.

    They will only be ignored if you keep them hidden and completely still from the start of the battle

    That's a bug and needs reporting
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 7,045Registered Users
    These were gravitated to even tho hidden and still :-/
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,113Registered Users
    The thing with stalk is yes, the ai unfortunately always knows where units are. But stalks purpose is actually is more so to protect your unit from ranged fire, not melee. Your stalk unit is going to be threatened eventually to a degree, and it's just a way to ensure you get into a favorable position without getting bombarded by artillery or long range small arms fire
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • arghozarghoz Junior Member Posts: 281Registered Users
    I have noticed this as well, same with hidden units in forests. Sometimes it works, but other times the AI sends units straight at it like a homing missile, even if i placed them at the western or eastern edge of the map far away from the main army. Seems to be a bit random so i would assume its a bug.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 7,045Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    The thing with stalk is yes, the ai unfortunately always knows where units are. But stalks purpose is actually is more so to protect your unit from ranged fire, not melee. Your stalk unit is going to be threatened eventually to a degree, and it's just a way to ensure you get into a favorable position without getting bombarded by artillery or long range small arms fire

    Nah I don't buy that as it's purpose. They could just as easily add missile avoidance if that was the point. This specifically says they can move hidden in any terrain. The AI should not know where they are while they are hidden. This is either a bug, or it's just flat out wrong-headed design that lets them know everything. In either case - it should be fixed.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 7,045Registered Users
    Point case btw... even back in Shogun and Medieval (the originals), you could hide - and it worked just fine back then. If you wanted to you could cat and mouse the AI for the entire battle timer (assuming you used one) -- aside from your general, who could never hide.

    Sometimes I feel like this series randomly takes step backwards. I wish the quality were consistent on all fronts.
  • JadawinKhanidiJadawinKhanidi Posts: 883Registered Users
    I found that hiding units works reasonably well as long as you present some non-hidden units to the AI as a decoy. They go for the visible units and ignore the hidden ones. If they have nothing to go for, they seem to move towards hidden units with uncanny precision.

    That they keep going after a unit that was hidden and then was briefly exposed and then hid again makes a lot of sense. A player, or a general on the field, would not suddenly completely forget the existence of a revealed unit just because it went into hiding again, but send a force to flush them out. Once seen, if only for second, the enemy is aware of it, and that's how it should be.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,113Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    Seldkam said:

    The thing with stalk is yes, the ai unfortunately always knows where units are. But stalks purpose is actually is more so to protect your unit from ranged fire, not melee. Your stalk unit is going to be threatened eventually to a degree, and it's just a way to ensure you get into a favorable position without getting bombarded by artillery or long range small arms fire

    Nah I don't buy that as it's purpose. They could just as easily add missile avoidance if that was the point. This specifically says they can move hidden in any terrain. The AI should not know where they are while they are hidden. This is either a bug, or it's just flat out wrong-headed design that lets them know everything. In either case - it should be fixed.
    You're not really talking about its purpose, you're talking about CAs intent. The best purpose of stalk is objectively to protect units from ranged fire, because unless you plan on sitting in the corner of the map, your opponent WILL send units to engage in melee. And the only way to protect at that point is if your stalk unit can kill the other unit, like with the mist stalkers, or if you have another unit nearby to support. Even the most stalkers are going to be engaged by Spears at some point though, unless again, you run away.

    But generally stalking units are exactly the kind of units you want to shoot at. With waywatchers, deepwood scouts, mournghouls, huntsmen, night gobbos, all these units will be discovered eventually and will need to either run or fight. All these units are easier to kill or fend off with missiles, than to chase, and these are just some examples. Gutter runners are another one.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 7,045Registered Users

    I found that hiding units works reasonably well as long as you present some non-hidden units to the AI as a decoy. They go for the visible units and ignore the hidden ones. If they have nothing to go for, they seem to move towards hidden units with uncanny precision.

    That they keep going after a unit that was hidden and then was briefly exposed and then hid again makes a lot of sense. A player, or a general on the field, would not suddenly completely forget the existence of a revealed unit just because it went into hiding again, but send a force to flush them out. Once seen, if only for second, the enemy is aware of it, and that's how it should be.

    Yeah but these lil buggers are 100% hidden. Game tells you when they are revealed.
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