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Empire Changes (post hotfix)

HeroofRome1HeroofRome1 MemberPosts: 1,613Registered Users
edited October 26 in Balancing Discussions
Some other players were talking about posting their own faction update lists so I decided to post my own.

Since the recent hotfix patch many of Empire's issues have been identified but, imo, not fixed. Here's a list from me - insert shameless self promotion here.


Wulfhart:
- -10 Ammo
-Hunter’s Snare single target.

Karl Franz:
- Ghal Maraz or Dragontooth
- Have Deathclaw be the only griffin which can have Blood Roar

Arch Lector:
- Change movement speed of the horse mounts to how they are on other Empire characters.
- Revert Soulfire
- Arch Lector and Warrior Priest abilities can’t stack.

Huntsman General (secretly Gascone)
- - 50 cost
- Increase Range on Oil Flask and AoE fire damage ability

Warrior Priest:
- Remove Scroll of shield BUUUUUUFFFFFF Power
- Revert Soulfire change.

Spearmen (all variants):
- +25 cost

Halberdiers:
- -100 cost
- 2MA and 4MD

Sigmar’s Sons:
- Same hp as regular Swords (they have around 300 more than regular Swordsmen I believe)

Free Company Militia:
- Fire on the Move.

Archers:
- +50 cost
- +20 range

Deathjacks:
- +20 range

White Wolves:
- - 50 cost

Black Lions:
- Reduce Rate of Fire, Accuracy and ammo.

Demis (Halberds, Lances, ROR):
- Cap to 2

Demis (regular):
- +50 cost

War Wagons (Regular and Mortar):
- +4 CB and +200 hp
Team Rome, Team Byzantium, Team Dwarfs, Team Empire, Team Bretonnia Team Grim, Team elf slayers, Team Belegar.
Post edited by HeroofRome1 on

Comments

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    edited October 26
    I think these are all very reasonable suggestions, but about the Archer one, do you really think they would be balanced with 140 range and for 450g? Seems a unit you would never buy especially since they have only 2 AP.

    Maybe reduce their LD by 5-8, reduce AP by 1 and rework them into a 90 model unit could be an idea.

    That way they could have a niche vs mass chaff, e.g. Skavens or Coast, but at the same time their weak LD would mean you need to work with them or they rout to 1 artillery volley.
  • HeroofRome1HeroofRome1 Member Posts: 1,613Registered Users
    edited October 26
    Yes, the archer problem is on odd one. I think that they could use a re-design personally - around the same cost as Peasant Bows but a bit worse cus longbows are Bretonnian's thing. I think, that +100 cost might be a bit too much - espeically as Crossbowmen exist- +50 or 75 might be a bit more reasonable.

    Overall, I don't really mind. The basic point is they need to be more expensive and a bit more elite imo.
    Team Rome, Team Byzantium, Team Dwarfs, Team Empire, Team Bretonnia Team Grim, Team elf slayers, Team Belegar.
  • nonentitynonentity Posts: 176Registered Users
    I much rather see hunter snare get 0 range (so directly at Markus' feet) with a 5 second cast time. Thus, it's more akin of a hunter spending 5 s to setup a trap at his position instead of a magical hex it currently is.

    Also -100 on halberds seems quite significant. Everything else I can agree with.
  • WunderKatzeWunderKatze Posts: 218Registered Users
    This is extreme, why remove scroll, make the buffs not stack and limit Demi's to two? All of those things in combination are not needed.

    I don't think hunters snare should be single target. It takes all of Markus' utility and makes him a one dimensional sniper. If I see that I will just with hold single units. He does decent damage against units but it's iffy.

    An increase to the huntsman's generals flask range would be appreciated.
  • HeroofRome1HeroofRome1 Member Posts: 1,613Registered Users
    edited October 27
    @nonentity While that does sound good in theory, I think that it will be far more useful as single entity snare - simply put, an AoE around Markus does not really synergise well with him or the unit's he's suppose to support. It's certainly food for thought though.

    Halberds, oddly enough, a reverse case of Archers. A basic unit trying to pose as an elite one. Basically, halberds - who are suppose to just be spearmen with a halberd rather than a spear - should, imo, become cheaper and lose stats to compensate. As it stands they're so expensive to the point that, unless you've got some niche build planned, two spears or one handgunner are almost always better choices in every scenario.

    @WunderKatze Because the Warrior Priest /demi combo is arguably one of the most broken and un-fun things in the game right now. The changes I propose ensure that this strategy can be nerfed without the need to nerf the demis themselves, which are a strong but balanced unit, and one necessary in a couple of MUs.
    Post edited by HeroofRome1 on
    Team Rome, Team Byzantium, Team Dwarfs, Team Empire, Team Bretonnia Team Grim, Team elf slayers, Team Belegar.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    I´d rather go with

    -50g on halberds with -2 MD
  • nonentitynonentity Posts: 176Registered Users
    I'd rather go +10 armor
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    Agree with most

    I dont think demis need a cap though
    I think hutsmen general needs -10 ammo also
    Archer change i would just +25g that about it, can get +5 range with that.
    Halbediers i think -100g is too much drop i think they fine currently.
  • ParadoxendParadoxend Posts: 24Registered Users
    edited October 27
    Markus:for me no ammo Nerf after the change to his Arrow classIfication
    Net only large

    Karl:ok(with +2MD)
    Not ok with Griffon suggestion

    Arch:ok mount
    Soulfire cap for me
    Yes for no stack

    Huntsman:ok and -5 ammo

    Warrior Priest:ok
    Soulfire cap (maybe give Priest the old one and arch the new One)

    Spearmen:ok if with small buff to flagellants and greatswords

    RoR sword: ok

    Halbeldiers:ok but with a small buff maybe -50cost -2/3 MA(a buff to the 5,7atk interval????)

    Free Company: only front Ok

    Archer:my suggestion is +25 cost and Vanguard, but i also agree with yours
    RoR:ok

    Huntsman RoR:ok
    But i prefer a rework(Too equal to free company, just more range and
    Melee) above all and also for the free Company suggestion

    RoR wagons:ok for rate of Fire/accuracy nerf, no for ammo


    Denis lance: ok
    No for cap

    War wagons: maybe bit more
    +6 CB and +100hp entity
  • HeroofRome1HeroofRome1 Member Posts: 1,613Registered Users
    edited October 27
    @TeNoSkill

    Could work. To be honest, so long as halberds get less elite and cheaper as a result, I don't think that the specifics matter too much. They should probably also lose charge defence against all as well.

    @Lotus_Moon

    Well, if Wulfhart loses 10 ammo the general probably should as well...

    Archers. Well, it's a matter of principle I suppose.

    Team Rome, Team Byzantium, Team Dwarfs, Team Empire, Team Bretonnia Team Grim, Team elf slayers, Team Belegar.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,290Registered Users
    Agree with most, but I think leave halberdiers and demi lancers alone, and no caps please.
  • TlaxtlanSoothsayerTlaxtlanSoothsayer Posts: 2,288Registered Users
    edited October 27
    Overall some interesting ideas and I agree with many of HeroofRome1's suggestions.


    There are two things which really beg the question why they should be exclusive to one faction and why they should be even necessary in quick battles in the first place.

    Hard caps to elite cavalry:
    On the one hand I understand that hard caps to elite units make sense. A lot of tournaments have rules like this. On the other hand it would be ridiculous to restrict Demigryph Knigths to 2, while you can pick 5 Horned Ones, 10 Dark Elf units of Cold One cavalry, 5 Bloodknights, and whatnot. I'm not sure if caps like this have a place in casual quick battles to begin with. Let's say CA would implement hard caps to elites then they need to appy to every single faction.


    Stacking of similar abilities.
    Yes, Shield of Faith + Grand Shield of Faith is a quite powerful combo as your units get a 44% wardsave.

    The thing is, that a lot of other factions have similar options to stack resistances: Wood Elves can boost their cavalry with bound Shield of Thorns + Shield of Thorns to 84% physical resistance. High Elves can buff Phoenix Guard to 42% physical + 23% wardsave with the vast majority if it being permanent. Lizardmen with Kroak and a Slann have 66% wardsave and also have Guardian for another 15% in their army roster. Even Dwarfs can get a 66% wardsave with their bread and butter characters. The list goes on. In the case of the Empire the real outlier is the Scroll of Power as it allows you to cast the Shield of Faith and all of the other Warrior Priest abilities in rapid succession.



    To get back on the topic of possible changes:
    As mentioned earlier I think some of these suggestions make a lot of sense. The way I see it, is that these are possibly the most important ones:


    - Warrior Priest: Remove the Scroll of Power

    - Spearmen +25 gold

    - Spearmen (Shields) +25 gold

    - Black Lions: Reduce accuracy

    - Halberdiers aren't that useful at their current price tag.


    Well, and something really needs to be done about the regular War Wagons. They're bad compared to real chariots. But they're also underwhelming compared to missile cavalry. I'm not entirely sure what they're supposed to do aside from looking kinda goofy like "stunning feats of engineering".








  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    edited October 27

    Overall some interesting ideas and I agree with many of HeroofRome1's suggestions.


    There are two things which really beg the question why they should be exclusive to one faction and why they should be even necessary in quick battles in the first place.

    Hard caps to elite cavalry:
    On the one hand I understand that hard caps to elite units make sense. A lot of tournaments have rules like this. On the other hand it would be ridiculous to restrict Demigryph Knigths to 2, while you can pick 5 Horned Ones, 10 Dark Elf units of Cold One cavalry, 5 Bloodknights, and whatnot. I'm not sure if caps like this have a place in casual quick battles to begin with. Let's say CA would implement hard caps to elites then they need to appy to every single faction.


    Stacking of similar abilities.
    Yes, Shield of Faith + Grand Shield of Faith is a quite powerful combo as your units get a 44% wardsave.

    The thing is, that a lot of other factions have similar options to stack resistances: Wood Elves can boost their cavalry with bound Shield of Thorns + Shield of Thorns to 84% physical resistance. High Elves can buff Phoenix Guard to 42% physical + 23% wardsave with the vast majority if it being permanent. Lizardmen with Kroak and a Slann have 66% wardsave and also have Guardian for another 15% in their army roster. Even Dwarfs can get a 66% wardsave with their bread and butter characters. The list goes on. In the case of the Empire the real outlier is the Scroll of Power as it allows you to cast the Shield of Faith and all of the other Warrior Priest abilities in rapid succession.



    To get back on the topic of possible changes:
    As mentioned earlier I think some of these suggestions make a lot of sense. The way I see it, is that these are possibly the most important ones:


    - Warrior Priest: Remove the Scroll of Power

    - Spearmen +25 gold

    - Spearmen (Shields) +25 gold

    - Black Lions: Reduce accuracy

    - Halberdiers aren't that useful at their current price tag.


    Well, and something really needs to be done about the regular War Wagons. They're bad compared to real chariots. But they're also underwhelming compared to missile cavalry. I'm not entirely sure what they're supposed to do aside from looking kinda goofy like "stunning feats of engineering".








    calling 23% ward save "permanent" is very wishful. Shield of Saphery is 11s (typically 2.5 attack intervals), and it's not like you can spam 4 WoM Earthbloods like at release anymore. There's also a cooldown.

    Realistically, something like Phoenix Guard will have:

    30% innate physical resistance
    + 12% from Shieldstone (you need to stay very compact, i.e. blob, which might not always be optimal

    Furthermore:

    12% from Scions (a 750g unit that is very useless otherwise) as long as you're above 30 WoM
    11% from SoS (which conflicts with your desire to keep the Scions effect up as long as possible).

    So you see there are many caveats. Quite different from the fifty second ward save the Arch Lector gives!

    Regardless, I can agree to an extent that Phoenix Guard resistance stacking is also too strong, BUT it's mostly Physical Resistance, not ward save. I'm all up for turning Shield of Faith/Grand Shield of Faith into Physical Resistances and leave them unchanged, OR leaving them as Ward saves but not allowing stacking... but allowing stacking of something that offers no counterplay (e.g. in the form of magical attacks) is unfair, particularly on a 125 armor unit that happens also to be the best duelist anti-cav cav.

    It's also worth mentioning that Phoenix Guard move at 31 speed, Demis at 75 so again, 2 very different situations, Phoenix Guard still allows counterplay in the form of for example artillery, Demiblob doesn't (too fast to do significant damage to it with arty).

    Anyway if you want "fair play" across all factions for all I am in favor of reworking the Scions of Mathlann into something that doesn't promote blobbing as I've stated multiple times. Shield of Faith stacking absolutely needs to go though.

    About the other 2 examples you mention, you gotta realize that for example part of the reason Slann count as superweapons is exactly their Ward save stacking as well as GAC stacking. Again it seems to be a common theme that stacking of such abilities leads to unfun/unbalanced gameplay.

    About the Dwarfs example, well, Dwarfs are a unidimensional faction, we never see them particularly rock a tournament... but I can see resistance stacking being too strong also in this case, vs for example Chaos. For what it's worth, from memory I think the Master Rune of Shielding is not 50s like the Grand Shield of Faith (could be wrong on this one, too lazy to check right now). But again, I think it's fair to tone down ward save stacking here also though again, Demiblob is the biggest offender due to the combo of being in a more versatile faction + moving at higher speed.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    Regarding war wagons;

    -All variants should get +14 bonus vs infantry
    -Regular variant should be dropped to 750g
    - mortar and black lions should get their armor dropped to 70 (and maybe a small price decrease of 50g)

    -Archers should get +25g and +10 range

    - Halberdiers should get cheaper by at least 50g, -2 MD and +15 armor


  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,355Registered Users
    Most of it I think is reasonable, though I disagree with some of the suggestions quite vehemently.

    KF - Griffon change is a big nope for me

    Arch Lector/Priest - Are we removing all resist stacking? Or is empire being singled out? If it's the latter, then hell no to removing their resist stacking. Also, soulfire could have its damage halved, or uses reduced to 3. I don't necessarily mind the reversion either, since it allows some fun gimmicks, but I don't think that's the only potential fix.

    Halberds - Even with spear nerfs, bringing these guys for 550 is just not going to be worth it, despite having relatively good stats for the cost at that price point. They just don't do anything well, or for raw holding spears are jsut more cost efficient. If you really need to get AP on the field you'll find a different fallback as empire.

    Black Lions - Reducing all of those things is overkill. As it stands their accuracy is not at all that outstanding, and I'm fairly confident people have not tested this extensively. yolo something like a carnosaur at them and they only get a fraction of their theoretical damage in before it makes contact. Demolishing blobs of cav/infantry is something it does exceptionally well, but im not sure an accuracy decrease would really mitigate that. Personally I think ROF decrease should be a first nerf, with other things to follow if/as needed.

    So if all demis are now reduced to 2, I assume you believe all heavy cav over the 1200 should be limited to 2 or less? If not then such a nerf would be completely ludicrous, all while doing nothing to mitigate the much whined about demi-blobs.

    War Wagon changes - Mortar is in an ok spot atm imo, at most maybe another 50 or so overpriced, but all in all decent. Vanilla war wagon is garbage and probably an easy 250-300 gold overpriced(I've already broken this down extensively before). Either needs better mobility and a proper BvsI to make it work as a cheap chariot, or a massive buff to ammo and DPS, or a combination of both.
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  • HeroofRome1HeroofRome1 Member Posts: 1,613Registered Users
    I agree that demis probably shouldn't be capped.

    Halberds a difficult problem and the unit, imo at least, really just needs a re-design. Personally, I feel that they should get cheaper and have stats lowered as a compromise. I don't claim that this is the best solution though.

    Arch Lector/WP If I'm to be truly candid with you, yes I am singling Empire out as I believe that the buff stacks on demis is one of the most powerful combinations in the game. What I will agree with is that the Scroll is at the root of the problem and should be prioritised. Essentially I was just trying to find ways to nerf the demi blob without nerfing the demis themselves. Again, I don't claim that my solutions are the best.

    Black Lions. Slow nerfs at a time, like you propose, are probably the best solution.

    War Wagons. Imo it's damage as a chariot should probably be increased.


    As a general message to everyone, I am keeping track of all the suggestions but I'm not going to edit the main thread anymore as every time I do it will just need "to be approved."
    Team Rome, Team Byzantium, Team Dwarfs, Team Empire, Team Bretonnia Team Grim, Team elf slayers, Team Belegar.
  • PussyslayerXDDPussyslayerXDD Posts: 24Registered Users
    Overall good suggestions, and since most points have been already addressed :

    -mortar wagon: ammo brought in line with normal mortar, a weapon that is effective against infantry only, quite inaccurate but a lot more expensive should have at least the same shots as the normal version. Especially since they suck as normal chariots anyway.

    -Flagellants: -25 gold pretty sure they lose vs any simliar priced infantry, no armor and no MD means everything will hit them, a glorified unbreakable meatshield

    -The Tattersouls: imo the lamest ror in the empire roster(and probably the least picked unit), since those guys are super religious fanatics they could get a support role similar to the censerer bearers ror, maybe not demegoguery trait, but just an encourage?

    -Silver bullets: Never understood why they have stalk, they overlap with the stirland revenge and with hunters out it seems even more out of place

    -Hellstorm rocket battery (and ror): increased angle of fire


    Only in my dreams: Generals of the empire get access to the 10 unclaimed runefags (screw you gelt you cant take that anyway in mp), ofc only 1 pickable.



  • FerrousTarkusFerrousTarkus Posts: 525Registered Users
    Empire need nerfs not buffs what is wrong with the balance board lately. 🤨

    Look at matchups and "tier" list. Lizardmen, empire, skavens, dark elves, high elves are all top tier and have a balanced chance against every other factions.

    Now the other factions, the one that either have hard counter or are simply bad , need to be looked at.
  • HeroofRome1HeroofRome1 Member Posts: 1,613Registered Users
    edited October 28
    I fail to see what is wrong with this thread in that case.

    Karl nerf
    Markus nerf
    Arch Lector nerf
    Warrior Priest nerf
    Demis (all) nerf
    Spearmen nerf
    Sigmar's Sons nerf
    Black Lions nerf

    White Wolves and War Wagons (useless units) buff

    Also, now this might be a bomb shell, but Empire really aren't op as a faction. It's just the new units which are over the top. Once Archers, Wulfhart, the demi blob, and the Black Lions get sorted out Empire will be fine.
    Team Rome, Team Byzantium, Team Dwarfs, Team Empire, Team Bretonnia Team Grim, Team elf slayers, Team Belegar.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Posts: 218Registered Users

    Overall some interesting ideas and I agree with many of HeroofRome1's suggestions.


    Stacking of similar abilities.
    Yes, Shield of Faith + Grand Shield of Faith is a quite powerful combo as your units get a 44% wardsave.

    The thing is, that a lot of other factions have similar options to stack resistances: Wood Elves can boost their cavalry with bound Shield of Thorns + Shield of Thorns to 84% physical resistance. High Elves can buff Phoenix Guard to 42% physical + 23% wardsave with the vast majority if it being permanent. Lizardmen with Kroak and a Slann have 66% wardsave and also have Guardian for another 15% in their army roster. Even Dwarfs can get a 66% wardsave with their bread and butter characters. The list goes on. In the case of the Empire the real outlier is the Scroll of Power as it allows you to cast the Shield of Faith and all of the other Warrior Priest abilities in rapid succession.

    To get back on the topic of possible changes:
    As mentioned earlier I think some of these suggestions make a lot of sense. The way I see it, is that these are possibly the most important ones:


    - Warrior Priest: Remove the Scroll of Power

    - Spearmen +25 gold

    - Spearmen (Shields) +25 gold

    - Black Lions: Reduce accuracy

    - Halberdiers aren't that useful at their current price tag.


    Well, and something really needs to be done about the regular War Wagons. They're bad compared to real chariots. But they're also underwhelming compared to missile cavalry. I'm not entirely sure what they're supposed to do aside from looking kinda goofy like "stunning feats of engineering".

    Sooth has nailed it in regards to Resistance stacking.

    Only the Highest Relevant unique resistance should count and it should not be cumulative

    You should not gain 15% missile resist plus 15% missile resist

    You should gain 15% missile resist THEN 15% damage resist for instance

    If you have 20% phys Resist and then a unit that can confer Phys resist of say 12% is nearby it should not be 32%. The highest relevant resist takes precedence, so that unit stays with 20%.

    At the moment all it does is encourage blobbing.

    Next

    War Wagons
    are just in a poor place. Watch the latest ECL both Shetland and I use them, upon utilising all their ammo the wagons in both match ups are used in melee charging into weak infantry - Peasant Bowman against the Black Lions and Skellie warriors against Mortar Wagons

    Firstly the wagons are exhausted from firing so their already dire stats are utterly appalling. In addition they couldnt even inflict anything approaching even satisfactory damage on the charge. Bear in bind the Black Lions even had Rank 9 stats..

    Normal and Mortar need a drastic cost reduction AND combat stat/ impact damage adjustments

    -Black Lions cost increase was incorrect, they needed a rate of fire and accuracy nerf NOT a cost increase

    -Halberds need a role

    And as per usual

    +5 Armour for Greatswords and introduce Stubborn

    -Flagellents are incredibly boring as is. If they are to stay as they are, give them +15% AP with their charge bonus





  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,355Registered Users

    I agree that demis probably shouldn't be capped.

    Halberds a difficult problem and the unit, imo at least, really just needs a re-design. Personally, I feel that they should get cheaper and have stats lowered as a compromise. I don't claim that this is the best solution though.

    Arch Lector/WP If I'm to be truly candid with you, yes I am singling Empire out as I believe that the buff stacks on demis is one of the most powerful combinations in the game. What I will agree with is that the Scroll is at the root of the problem and should be prioritised. Essentially I was just trying to find ways to nerf the demi blob without nerfing the demis themselves. Again, I don't claim that my solutions are the best.

    Black Lions. Slow nerfs at a time, like you propose, are probably the best solution.

    War Wagons. Imo it's damage as a chariot should probably be increased.


    As a general message to everyone, I am keeping track of all the suggestions but I'm not going to edit the main thread anymore as every time I do it will just need "to be approved."

    I wish I had a good counter-recommendation to improve halberds, but quite frankly I don't. It's just difficult to justify them in the empire lineup. If they were AP/AL with stats and cost on par with spears+shields and no expert charge defense(more in line with zombie polearms, essentially), you'd maybe see them more imo. But as long as theyre in the midtier price range, empire is just always going to take spears for the holding role instead.
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  • HeroofRome1HeroofRome1 Member Posts: 1,613Registered Users
    Yep :(

    Well, as i'm sure you've heard me say before, Halberds are after all just a spearman with a halberd rather than a spear. Therefore, re-designing the unit into a cheaper (400-550) costing unit would make some degree of sense and, as a slightly more expensive spear with ap and better stats for a bit more, they might see some use. As it stands right now, the unit does not really have role in the roster.

    Obviously my suggestion isn't the best, and I don't claim it is, but it's what I think anyway.
    Team Rome, Team Byzantium, Team Dwarfs, Team Empire, Team Bretonnia Team Grim, Team elf slayers, Team Belegar.
  • nonentitynonentity Posts: 176Registered Users

    Overall some interesting ideas and I agree with many of HeroofRome1's suggestions.


    Stacking of similar abilities.
    Yes, Shield of Faith + Grand Shield of Faith is a quite powerful combo as your units get a 44% wardsave.

    The thing is, that a lot of other factions have similar options to stack resistances: Wood Elves can boost their cavalry with bound Shield of Thorns + Shield of Thorns to 84% physical resistance. High Elves can buff Phoenix Guard to 42% physical + 23% wardsave with the vast majority if it being permanent. Lizardmen with Kroak and a Slann have 66% wardsave and also have Guardian for another 15% in their army roster. Even Dwarfs can get a 66% wardsave with their bread and butter characters. The list goes on. In the case of the Empire the real outlier is the Scroll of Power as it allows you to cast the Shield of Faith and all of the other Warrior Priest abilities in rapid succession.

    To get back on the topic of possible changes:
    As mentioned earlier I think some of these suggestions make a lot of sense. The way I see it, is that these are possibly the most important ones:


    - Warrior Priest: Remove the Scroll of Power

    - Spearmen +25 gold

    - Spearmen (Shields) +25 gold

    - Black Lions: Reduce accuracy

    - Halberdiers aren't that useful at their current price tag.


    Well, and something really needs to be done about the regular War Wagons. They're bad compared to real chariots. But they're also underwhelming compared to missile cavalry. I'm not entirely sure what they're supposed to do aside from looking kinda goofy like "stunning feats of engineering".

    Sooth has nailed it in regards to Resistance stacking.

    Only the Highest Relevant unique resistance should count and it should not be cumulative

    You should not gain 15% missile resist plus 15% missile resist

    You should gain 15% missile resist THEN 15% damage resist for instance

    If you have 20% phys Resist and then a unit that can confer Phys resist of say 12% is nearby it should not be 32%. The highest relevant resist takes precedence, so that unit stays with 20%.

    At the moment all it does is encourage blobbing.

    Next

    War Wagons
    are just in a poor place. Watch the latest ECL both Shetland and I use them, upon utilising all their ammo the wagons in both match ups are used in melee charging into weak infantry - Peasant Bowman against the Black Lions and Skellie warriors against Mortar Wagons

    Firstly the wagons are exhausted from firing so their already dire stats are utterly appalling. In addition they couldnt even inflict anything approaching even satisfactory damage on the charge. Bear in bind the Black Lions even had Rank 9 stats..

    Normal and Mortar need a drastic cost reduction AND combat stat/ impact damage adjustments

    -Black Lions cost increase was incorrect, they needed a rate of fire and accuracy nerf NOT a cost increase

    -Halberds need a role

    And as per usual

    +5 Armour for Greatswords and introduce Stubborn

    -Flagellents are incredibly boring as is. If they are to stay as they are, give them +15% AP with their charge bonus





    Shield of Faith is a 22% ward save (no counters) whereas Shield of Thorns is a physical resistance boost which can be neglected with magic damage.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 916Registered Users
    Hard no on the franz change, he would be significantly worse if he lost runefang and its not like hes overtuned anyways.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,622Registered Users
    I'd actually like to remove the Runefang and replace it with the Silver Seal to increase his survivability and lower his burst damage antics.

  • FerrousTarkusFerrousTarkus Posts: 525Registered Users

    I fail to see what is wrong with this thread in that case.

    Karl nerf
    Markus nerf
    Arch Lector nerf
    Warrior Priest nerf
    Demis (all) nerf
    Spearmen nerf
    Sigmar's Sons nerf
    Black Lions nerf

    White Wolves and War Wagons (useless units) buff

    Also, now this might be a bomb shell, but Empire really aren't op as a faction. It's just the new units which are over the top. Once Archers, Wulfhart, the demi blob, and the Black Lions get sorted out Empire will be fine.

    Fair enough, I retract. 🙇‍♂️
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users

    I'd actually like to remove the Runefang and replace it with the Silver Seal to increase his survivability and lower his burst damage antics.

    Silver seal doesn t have a ability tho...
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,229Registered Users

    Overall some interesting ideas and I agree with many of HeroofRome1's suggestions.


    Stacking of similar abilities.
    Yes, Shield of Faith + Grand Shield of Faith is a quite powerful combo as your units get a 44% wardsave.

    The thing is, that a lot of other factions have similar options to stack resistances: Wood Elves can boost their cavalry with bound Shield of Thorns + Shield of Thorns to 84% physical resistance. High Elves can buff Phoenix Guard to 42% physical + 23% wardsave with the vast majority if it being permanent. Lizardmen with Kroak and a Slann have 66% wardsave and also have Guardian for another 15% in their army roster. Even Dwarfs can get a 66% wardsave with their bread and butter characters. The list goes on. In the case of the Empire the real outlier is the Scroll of Power as it allows you to cast the Shield of Faith and all of the other Warrior Priest abilities in rapid succession.

    To get back on the topic of possible changes:
    As mentioned earlier I think some of these suggestions make a lot of sense. The way I see it, is that these are possibly the most important ones:


    - Warrior Priest: Remove the Scroll of Power

    - Spearmen +25 gold

    - Spearmen (Shields) +25 gold

    - Black Lions: Reduce accuracy

    - Halberdiers aren't that useful at their current price tag.


    Well, and something really needs to be done about the regular War Wagons. They're bad compared to real chariots. But they're also underwhelming compared to missile cavalry. I'm not entirely sure what they're supposed to do aside from looking kinda goofy like "stunning feats of engineering".

    Sooth has nailed it in regards to Resistance stacking.

    Only the Highest Relevant unique resistance should count and it should not be cumulative


    I don't think that was his point, but ok.

    Personally, I wouldn't mind if it worked like that, but the work to rebalance everything to work that way would be incredibly hard work. What of +armour spells and abilities? Only useful on slayers and flaggelants? You're making -armour spells and abilities worth much more then. What of +MA/MD buffs? Yes/no, and why? Some units rely on armour for protection, why they can't use + armour buffs, while other units can use MA/MD buffs? Some units rely on physical resistance for protection - why not allow them to double up on that? You can raise Steam Tanks or Stegadons armour over 200, effectively impervious to non ap damage - why should ethereal units be able to do the same?

    Also, there would still be ways to stack resistances. For instance, vs missiles, you could stack missile resistance, ward saves and physical/magic resistance, in addition to any missile block chance.

    Not that the idea has no merit, but it would just make one big giant mess of things... Easier to nerf biggest offenders than to upset the balance of the entire game.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Posts: 218Registered Users
    Really good points Sarm I hadn't considered armour buffing. Yes acknowledge that wasn't soothsayers thrust it was mine taking on some of his points and running with them.

    As mentioned I don't see problems with the COMBINATION of UNIQUE resistances the problem is the CUMULATION of the SAME resistances

    I.e 15% missile resist then 15% phys or magical then 15% ward in this most extreme version

    However it is where a unit already has say
    15% phys resist it then gains another 25% phys and another 12% phys. In this instance only the 25% should apply.

    I agree it would need rebalacing and I'd suggest Base resists of certain units should go up as a result somewhat. so for instance dragon princes would go up to 30% - made up figure and would need balancing but you get the idea.

    But that is still a benefit as it prevents the blobbing which is, in my view, detrimental to the game in terms of player enjoyment and strategy. Happy to accept some might enjoy a resistance blob.

    I have less concerns with single target resist buffing, the AOE resist buffing is fine so long as the highest resist stands so a 25% phys resist buff would apply to all unless they already had 25% or had say 30% in which case they keep their own.

    Viz the armour buffing point I do think there should be a limit to how high armour could get, some armour values are already absurd and it's good to see some moves towards lessening them ( Dinos). Once over 100 armour I don't think it's good to have extra armour added on top. So a steam tank would never go above its set value of 150 or so (I can't remember fully However if one wants to buff a line of eternal guard however they could have an AoE armour buff taking them up to 100.


    In a similar vein to the introduction of Caps it's my view that limits on armour and resist stacking would also benefit the game.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,622Registered Users
    TeNoSkill said:

    I'd actually like to remove the Runefang and replace it with the Silver Seal to increase his survivability and lower his burst damage antics.

    Silver seal doesn t have a ability tho...
    The passive.

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