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Are Vampire Coast (Pirates) Under Powered?

tzurugbytzurugby Posts: 262Registered Users
Just looking through tournament and QB data and one of the factions that stands out is VP.... they have a win rate in the low 40's across the board in Pick/Ban tournaments, Blind Pick Tournaments and Quick Battles. Note: that data is still highly variable at this point, so this may change over the next month or so, but it sticks out like a sore thumb at the moment.

I know there is discussion on buffing Depth Guard.... just wondering if the problem goes a little deeper? Are there any Pirate mains that can weigh in? How does the faction "feel" these days to play as and to play against?

Comments

  • PippingtonPippington Posts: 2,021Registered Users
    edited October 28
    I really think this is an example of the limitations of the data you're collecting beyond just low stats. The win rates are not a direct window into faction balance, they are a convolution of faction balance, counterpick probability, player faction preference among a limited pool of players, and probably a bunch of other things too.

    Here's another hypothesis that fits the data pretty much indistinguishably to "Coast are UP": among the very low number of high-placing players whose games get streamed the most, and who have the highest win rates independent of faction choice, there are few to none who main Coast, (A) because most of them have been playing the game for a long time and Coast are the youngest faction, and (B) because Coast have a dull and unpopular playstyle.


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  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,082Registered Users
    Nope. Pure win percentage is uninforming without pick rate/MU's variation/players average skill data. VP were definitely toned down ( wich is good ) but even now their specific combination of classic undead healable line + solid gunline make them competitive. Necrofex is big fat nope to your cavalry, zombies with halberds wich are hands down absurd in their price range, gun bats and so on. Even their "bad" units are good in wierd way that they simply uncrucial for competitive playstyle. Truth be told, classic VC are main loosers of all undead if you consider their overreliance on heal spam and rush. VP and TK can play " come on me bro " game - VC cant.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,082Registered Users

    I really think this is an example of the limitations of the data you're collecting beyond just low stats. The win rates are not a direct window into faction balance, they are a convolution of faction balance, counterpick probability, player faction preference among a limited pool of players, and probably a bunch of other things too.

    Here's another hypothesis that fits the data pretty much indistinguishably to "Coast are UP": among the very low number of high-placing players whose games get streamed the most, and who have the highest win rates independent of faction choice, there are few to none who main Coast, (A) because most of them have been playing the game for a long time and Coast are the youngest faction, and (B) because Coast have a dull and unpopular playstyle.

    Read your post after printing my own. Cant say better than you , all is summed up nicely.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    edited October 28
    They r ok, have some gaps but overall not as glaringly disadvantaged as others when faced in some extreme, almost impossible scenario. Skaven, tombs and dwf really rekt them so badly. Esp skaven, its like literally outright murders voast
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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    edited October 28

    I really think this is an example of the limitations of the data you're collecting beyond just low stats. The win rates are not a direct window into faction balance, they are a convolution of faction balance, counterpick probability, player faction preference among a limited pool of players, and probably a bunch of other things too.

    Here's another hypothesis that fits the data pretty much indistinguishably to "Coast are UP": among the very low number of high-placing players whose games get streamed the most, and who have the highest win rates independent of faction choice, there are few to none who main Coast, (A) because most of them have been playing the game for a long time and Coast are the youngest faction, and (B) because Coast have a dull and unpopular playstyle.

    as much as this sounds as "keeping the hard working Zombie Pirate down", I fully agree with this analysis. Coast is not weak by any means, simply nobody has put the time to crack matchups such as Coast vs HE from Coast side.

    Incidentally, a MU like Coast vs HE is very winnable for Coast, the unwinnable ones are stuff like Dwarfs.

    They also got favorable matchups vs for example VC and Lizardmen.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,697Registered Users
    They are fine imo, felkon did a number with them last week for what it's worth.
  • tzurugbytzurugby Posts: 262Registered Users
    .

    They are fine imo, felkon did a number with them last week for what it's worth.

    I watched his games as I added his wins to the tournament data set... that double necrofex seemed pretty strong!
  • DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users
    I am, and have been, of the opinion that the last nerf to their zombie mobs really weakened VP and that they are underpowered atm.

    That said, it's not hugely so. They're weak rather than strong, but they're not too far from the bar.

    I also think it's due to not many players being comfortable with them on the tournament level, as others have said. So they're not played often enough to fully develop their meta.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    Tournament builds and play should not be comparable with balancing due to many rules that are optamized at preventing abuse or force play you would not do otherwise.

    Even if a faction had 0% win rate in events it wouldn't be any case to buff it unless it performs bad in QB's.

    If coast got bad win rate in events and ok in QB (which we do not have access to) than perhaps the key would be to adjust tournament rules to be more flexible for them.


    FYI i think coast is balanced now
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users

    Tournament builds and play should not be comparable with balancing due to many rules that are optamized at preventing abuse or force play you would not do otherwise.

    Even if a faction had 0% win rate in events it wouldn't be any case to buff it unless it performs bad in QB's.

    If coast got bad win rate in events and ok in QB (which we do not have access to) than perhaps the key would be to adjust tournament rules to be more flexible for them.


    FYI i think coast is balanced now

    I think it also comes down to a lack of fantasy with which many Coast players play.

    Most Coast matches I've seen come down to:

    - Coast player brings a bunch of Mortars, Zombie frontline, Handgunners and maybe Gunbats/Dogs.

    Everyone prepares for that pretty much and as a result it's a close game but the non-Coast player typically wins.

    If Coast players had more originality, for example brought Harken when he's not an ideal pick (e.g. vs HE, say), or brought Mongol rush vs Empire, or crab builds... then people would stop spamming 7+ archers and would bring 1-2 units that are "easy" for Coast to beat, such as Demi halberds as insurance vs crab builds.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Tournament builds and play should not be comparable with balancing due to many rules that are optamized at preventing abuse or force play you would not do otherwise.

    Even if a faction had 0% win rate in events it wouldn't be any case to buff it unless it performs bad in QB's.

    If coast got bad win rate in events and ok in QB (which we do not have access to) than perhaps the key would be to adjust tournament rules to be more flexible for them.


    FYI i think coast is balanced now

    I think it also comes down to a lack of fantasy with which many Coast players play.

    Most Coast matches I've seen come down to:

    - Coast player brings a bunch of Mortars, Zombie frontline, Handgunners and maybe Gunbats/Dogs.

    Everyone prepares for that pretty much and as a result it's a close game but the non-Coast player typically wins.

    If Coast players had more originality, for example brought Harken when he's not an ideal pick (e.g. vs HE, say), or brought Mongol rush vs Empire, or crab builds... then people would stop spamming 7+ archers and would bring 1-2 units that are "easy" for Coast to beat, such as Demi halberds as insurance vs crab builds.
    Word you're looking for is imagination. I agree with the comment though.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users
    yst said:

    They r ok, have some gaps but overall not as glaringly disadvantaged as others when faced in some extreme, almost impossible scenario. Skaven, tombs and dwf really rekt them so badly. Esp skaven, its like literally outright murders voast

    What makes Skaven such a rough matchup? What is the meta build here?
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,355Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    yst said:

    They r ok, have some gaps but overall not as glaringly disadvantaged as others when faced in some extreme, almost impossible scenario. Skaven, tombs and dwf really rekt them so badly. Esp skaven, its like literally outright murders voast

    What makes Skaven such a rough matchup? What is the meta build here?
    I'd imagine it's the fact that skaven can basically dominate you in any field they choose. Jezzails or even WLC will dominate the ranged game as well as heavily armored monsters and flyers, so your only real fallback is massing mongols and trying for a melee rush. The problem is that skaven, even with a decent chunk invested in heavy guns, should have more than enough funds to invest in contingencies for such a push. Even before the prophet+warlock DLC, skaven could actually bludgeon voast pretty hard with a combination of massed slingers+wither+death runners
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  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    ^ pretty much that. Also complete inability to deal with flanks of skaven skirmishers. Zombs r slow af so they r completely ineffective vs skaven, that leaves ur other “faster” unit which r pretty much completely outclass. Anything else, jezz will take care of it. Also took them bloody arm and leg just to deal with a single hellpit. Skaven have plenty of options of coz no match r impossible but this is as close as it gets
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  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 323Registered Users
    Felkon went 5-1 at Prince Pittance X this weekend with Vampirates, a faction he doesn't play much, losing only once in the finals to HE.

    Crusader and Tutorial have also done very well with them.

    Very few other top players play them, probably because as Pippington said, their playstyle is quite monotonous.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users


    Very few other top players play them, probably because as Pippington said, their playstyle is quite monotonous.

    With only one colossus Coast are much more bearable to most factions.
    Either way there is at least 3 really bad matchups for Coast right now. With dawi one being simply unwinnable.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 691Registered Users
    tank3487 said:


    Very few other top players play them, probably because as Pippington said, their playstyle is quite monotonous.

    With only one colossus Coast are much more bearable to most factions.
    Either way there is at least 3 really bad matchups for Coast right now. With dawi one being simply unwinnable.
    I just recently got coast and probably played like a dozen QB's and won all but 1. I lost one against empire when I tried taking an all crab build... that did not work out too well.

    I have yet to face dawi though.

    I faced Brets like 4 times out of the dozen I played, which suggests people were actively counter picking. Is that a thing? is Bret considered a hard MU for VP? I also faced HE 3 times, each time the build was pretty much the same: just lots of archers/lothern sea guard mixed in with some silver helms.

    in any case, against dawi, I am not sure what I would try to do. One thing I can think of is trying to outgun them. take 3 cannonades, a gunner wight a couple of mournghouls, noctilus on foot, couple of deckgunners, a ton of deckhand mobs, a few dogos.

    Can the dawi arti outshoot VP? I feel like the deckgunners can really put a dent in dawi handgunners, quarrelers because of distance + shieldbreaker.

    What am I missing?
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,423Registered Users

    tank3487 said:


    Very few other top players play them, probably because as Pippington said, their playstyle is quite monotonous.

    With only one colossus Coast are much more bearable to most factions.
    Either way there is at least 3 really bad matchups for Coast right now. With dawi one being simply unwinnable.
    I just recently got coast and probably played like a dozen QB's and won all but 1. I lost one against empire when I tried taking an all crab build... that did not work out too well.

    I have yet to face dawi though.

    I faced Brets like 4 times out of the dozen I played, which suggests people were actively counter picking. Is that a thing? is Bret considered a hard MU for VP? I also faced HE 3 times, each time the build was pretty much the same: just lots of archers/lothern sea guard mixed in with some silver helms.

    in any case, against dawi, I am not sure what I would try to do. One thing I can think of is trying to outgun them. take 3 cannonades, a gunner wight a couple of mournghouls, noctilus on foot, couple of deckgunners, a ton of deckhand mobs, a few dogos.

    Can the dawi arti outshoot VP? I feel like the deckgunners can really put a dent in dawi handgunners, quarrelers because of distance + shieldbreaker.

    What am I missing?
    Against dwarfs two common approaches are an intensive artillery/gun barrage (sometimes with queen bess, sometimes with deck gunners, or both) with delaying infantry and summons to help it all grind them down, or alterantively a straight up rush heavy on mournguls/depth guard/syreens to flip the script and go on the offense.

    Dwarfs can win a straight up ranged fight but VP have summons for quick protection, healing, no psychology to let crews run off the field, and wights are better than engineers, so generally speaking a straight up ranged fight favors VP and dwarfs will typically do something more offensive and with plenty of crossbow type units. Like a lot of factions, going wide and archer heavy is the ticket vs VP and it works better for dwarves than most with their shielded and stalked archers who are also pretty resilient (or in the case of bugmans, dominant in melee). Previously, VP could literally try to just run them out of arrows with tons of HP on zombie units, but that's gotten a bit weaker with the recent patches. Zeblasky has popularized the use of double gunnery wights on crabs, which are faster than all dawi units, have regenerating ammo, and are longer range than anything other than dawi artillery, so those can be good in a protracted engagement where the dwarfs lack artillery, though.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users

    tank3487 said:


    Very few other top players play them, probably because as Pippington said, their playstyle is quite monotonous.

    With only one colossus Coast are much more bearable to most factions.
    Either way there is at least 3 really bad matchups for Coast right now. With dawi one being simply unwinnable.
    I just recently got coast and probably played like a dozen QB's and won all but 1. I lost one against empire when I tried taking an all crab build... that did not work out too well.

    I have yet to face dawi though.

    I faced Brets like 4 times out of the dozen I played, which suggests people were actively counter picking. Is that a thing? is Bret considered a hard MU for VP? I also faced HE 3 times, each time the build was pretty much the same: just lots of archers/lothern sea guard mixed in with some silver helms.

    in any case, against dawi, I am not sure what I would try to do. One thing I can think of is trying to outgun them. take 3 cannonades, a gunner wight a couple of mournghouls, noctilus on foot, couple of deckgunners, a ton of deckhand mobs, a few dogos.

    Can the dawi arti outshoot VP? I feel like the deckgunners can really put a dent in dawi handgunners, quarrelers because of distance + shieldbreaker.

    What am I missing?
    Nah they can't. Taking the artillery fight is a risk the Dwarf player shouldn't take if they are trying to guarantee a win against VP.

    For dwarfs, you just need to take something roughly like:

    - Belegar - 1000
    - 5 Quarrelers - 2750
    - 5 Dwarf Warrior - 2250
    - 3 Longbearfs - 1950
    - 2 Slayers - 1800
    - Dragonback Slayers - 1150
    - Total 10900, 1500 funds remaining

    So from there you could take some rangers, thunderers, Ulthar's raiders, Bugman's, put some of the DW and LB up to GW, whatever you like. You can also go even heavier on range by dropping a slayer or longbeard or whatever and grabbing more rangers.

    Against a player who knows what they're doing I would say it is easily one of the hardest matchups in the game, up there with Bretonnia vs Lizardmen.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    edited October 29
    Just go 8x slayers 3x cannons really if ure lazy not like voast can do anything about that lol. Literally one of the most effortless win ull ever get
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  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,105Registered Users
    yst said:

    Just go 8x slayers 3x cannons really if ure lazy not like voast can do anything about that lol. Literally one of the most effortless win ull ever get

    You can't do 8 slayers anymore right?
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  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    edited October 29
    Seldkam said:

    You can't do 8 slayers anymore right?

    +Giants slayers they r really just there to rekt trash guard lol but ya bit overkill, normally u really just need maybe 2. Thats just the lazy approach, at 2400 or 3600 u have plenty of other options. 5x ballista is also a lazy win if u want.
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    Depth guard 3x are great vs Dwai

    I found this not a horrible match-up as many claim.
  • nonentitynonentity Posts: 176Registered Users
    I'd rather have a faction with unbreakable range units and gun summons be underpowered than overpowered anyways.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited November 4


    Can the dawi arti outshoot VP? I feel like the deckgunners can really put a dent in dawi handgunners, quarrelers because of distance + shieldbreaker.
    What am I missing?

    You missing that VP is the only faction that cannot run away from dawi and deckgunners do lack damage while they shoot such cheap units due to poor accuracy.
    You just spam Quarelers to the max possible limit(5-6 depend on rules). 8-9 units of longbeards/dwarf warriors mix. 4 Slayers. As Lord I prefer Belegar. And just push with all this force. Quarelers counter Depth Guard and are cost-effective solutions vs all VP units. Dogs cannot chew through the armor of quarelers.
    4 Slayers are more than enough to solve all problems with Mournghouls.
    It can vary(for example some bring bugmans instead of quarelers or rangers), but the general idea is something like this.

    I do believe that some extremely cheese builds like Double Wight kite can make some difference. But due to such abuses, there are rules in tournaments. And double wight kite would not work there due to attack rules.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,782Registered Users
    - Lore of Vampires was severly nerfed, while Lore of Deep wasn't buffed to become strong on average to cover that

    - Deckhand Mob underperforming a bit (specifically non-ap)
    - Depth Guard undeperforming in general, which leaves only Syreens as somehow ok melee infantry unit (I don't talk about Human Pirates, because they are sub-faction choice only and they route)
    - All Bombers are still trashy
    - Bloated Corpse still more of a fun unit, rather somehow cost-effective
    - Leviathan is ehh unit, even though concept wise seems nice with well fitting tanking+healing
    - Necrofex Colossus capped at 2 is quite painful thing, since they were most "effective" unit
    - Queen Bess still requires support most of the time to be good for its cost

    Idk about Mournguls. I would give back stats and Terror, but would add Rampage to regular one similar to Ror one.

    I would look at Harkon on TG and Prometheans (especially Ranged though) in case of potential overperformance though.

    I think their infantry (or ranged infantry) is a bit too weak atm (Deckhand Mob/Depth Guard) and need some buffs (a bit here, a bit there), also their SEMs apart from Mounts/Terrorgheist are in weird spot (including Bess) and Bombers are, well Bombers.
    I would also say that while they have way more sources compared to Counts (and even some others) in terms of ranged damage, they almost don't have any unit with cost-effecient sources of high damage output apart from Lords/Heroes/Necrofex, since most units are more about tanking and holding or hit and run/selecting preferable targets, which in theory should be a balanced thing with taking ranged+LoV into account, but in reality armies seem to run out of steam a bit too earlier it seems.

    But in general I would say they are more versatile, than many other Undead and have some advantages (some of them are on surface, some are a bit deeper), so are sorta fine and I think other problems lay in unfavourable match-ups/DLC status/newcommer status with "being strong without being weak before" thing.
    If to look at what affected their losses/wins in your data most, they wreck LM and suffer a lot in Empire match-ups. Also they seem to be dominated by factions with nice skirmish or good infantry+good ranged on average. Which again leads me to idea that their infantry/SEMs aren't that great for nerfs they received previously in ranged/magic section (alternatively, its other way around and ranged/magic ain't that great for nerfs for infantry/restrictions for SEMs vs SEM performance).

    But that's my 2 cents and big imo.
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