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Giants were buffed the wrong way

VikingCatVikingCat Posts: 240Registered Users
Giants were buffed a couple times now, getting mostly cost reductions. However, they're still bad for the same reasons as before:

- They're quite slow
- They get staggered or knocked over easily, especially by other monsters that can outpace them and which they can't escape
- They're very vulnerable to missiles
- They take a lot of damage if surrounded and not saturated within their own troops, which means you have at least 1800 gold occupying a very small space of the battlefield and will most likely be overwhelmed elsewhere, unless you can afford to blob, which you can't really do against factions with missiles.

Cost reductions barely help them with any of this, since losing a 1500 gold unit to cheap archers before it gets to do much is still not something you can afford. Effectively the only thing this really achieved was buffing them against factions with no or limited missiles, Vampire Counts in particular, where giants were already a viable pick even when they used to cost more.

Therefore I'd suggest to give them following buffs:

- Increased speed
- Less chance to get staggered / knocked over
- Missile resistance (15 percent should be enough)

In return, increase their cost again.

Doing this will make them a more viable pick in match-ups where they're rarely seen (which is pretty much any match-up) while avoiding making them OP against Vampire Counts (which they already may be at this stage, notice how none of the weaknesses I described apply to the VC match-up).
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Comments

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,423Registered Users
    I understand the vc concern. That said you do see giant a lot more now and not just in that matchup. They were made a bit faster in Doomsayer patch, not just cheaper. And some missile resist I don’t think would change their dynamic much, since they still have big hit boxes and will take a ton of hits regardless.

    I’m not sure ca can or does want them to be fifty speed monsters. Failing that I think the cost decrease was best for the unit.

    Can we give anti large to vargheists instead?
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,697Registered Users
    I kind of like giants the way they are now, they doing need to be equally viable in every mu....
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    the issue of Giants getting staggered is not unique to Giants, every monster in the game has that. CA deems it an interesting feature, oh well.


    I share your concern that the best way to buff Giants would have been more speed (they had M6 in TT), but CA went for price reduction instead. I don't think they're in a terrible spot right now, not sure if they're particularly hard for any faction to deal with.
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 381Registered Users
    I feel like their primary issue has always been being a sort of "catch all" monster. It's sort of like a mammoth with weapon damage and higher MA, but worse speed and pathing. I think that this monster could only be balanced if it was very mediocre, and the price decrease of 100 was maybe a bit much considering that it is functionally unbreakable with 100 LD
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users
    I think they are quite balanced now, they are fast enough that they can at least be some degree of a threat in the battlefield, have enough hp and WS that they can duel monsters pretty well, but are still extremely vulnerable to missile fire as they should be.

    Vampire Counts issue with large needs to be dealt with on their side by buffing their underperforming units (vargheists, crypt horrors, dire wolves, ethereals).
  • mightygloinmightygloin Posts: 1,367Registered Users
    VikingCat said:



    - They're quite slow
    - They get staggered or knocked over easily, especially by other monsters that can outpace them and which they can't escape
    - They're very vulnerable to missiles
    - They take a lot of damage if surrounded and not saturated within their own troops,

    Other than speed issue, those are literally Giant's characteristic weaknesses no? Yes they had way higher speed on TT, but they were also clumsy which is probably covered by them frequently falling down in the game. They also had a pretty low Weapon Skill as i remember.

    Unfortunately it just seems they are somewhat differently implemented into the game like several other units. Also some dwarfs being able to run faster than giants will always look silly.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users

    VikingCat said:



    - They're quite slow
    - They get staggered or knocked over easily, especially by other monsters that can outpace them and which they can't escape
    - They're very vulnerable to missiles
    - They take a lot of damage if surrounded and not saturated within their own troops,

    Other than speed issue, those are literally Giant's characteristic weaknesses no? Yes they had way higher speed on TT, but they were also clumsy which is probably covered by them frequently falling down in the game. They also had a pretty low Weapon Skill as i remember.

    Unfortunately it just seems they are somewhat differently implemented into the game like several other units. Also some dwarfs being able to run faster than giants will always look silly.
    PUMP THOSE DWARFEN LEGS!
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,290Registered Users
    Just a wee bit more speed I reckon and they'd be pretty much right.
  • another505another505 Posts: 992Registered Users
    Can ppl stop suggesting missile resist for everything?

    I get giant has trouble but everyone is asking for It

    It was first corsairs
    Depth guards and now this...
  • FerrousTarkusFerrousTarkus Posts: 525Registered Users

    Can ppl stop suggesting missile resist for everything?

    I get giant has trouble but everyone is asking for It

    It was first corsairs
    Depth guards and now this...

    Yup, artificial resistance is lazy. Wardsaves, physical resistances and missile resist need to stop and even potentially erased.

    Its true that giants are really vulnerable tp range fire and Im not sure what the solution may be. But really its some other SEM that are over the top and need toning down.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    100% against resist, makes no sense at all. These kind of missile resist r very normally already incorporated in their hp. Unless some lore suggests otherwise. Characters 15% r due to totalwar and look out sir being implemented.
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  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users

    Can ppl stop suggesting missile resist for everything?

    Why not? If only reason why Giants are not used are missiles? Missiles are quite OP in damage output vs such units.
    Just buff missile resist. So shooting would be less cost effective. Right now missiles are too cost effective vs Giants.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Can ppl stop suggesting missile resist for everything?

    Why not? If only reason why Giants are not used are missiles? Missiles are quite OP in damage output vs such units.
    Just buff missile resist. So shooting would be less cost effective. Right now missiles are too cost effective vs Giants.
    missiles are not OP.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited October 30
    Green0 said:


    missiles are not OP.

    Vs target like Giants they are OP. If you have even 1 range unit that can shoot Giant it is insane damage without retalation. And most range units that counter him HARD are either 400-500 in price range in case of infantry(but infantry are harder to keep shooting it due to low speed, so you need quite often 2 such units) or 500-750 in case of skirmish cavalry. Vs 1500 gold unit. It is 2x-3x cost effective solution to any Giant. And quite fast solution. And you would still has said unit after spending ammo on killing Giant. Good luck finding solution of range units with such cost effectivness and such low investment.

    Giant need at least 20% missile resist for start to not be such good target for missiles. Without enemy missiles he is quite viable and balanced unit right now.

  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Green0 said:


    missiles are not OP.

    Vs target like Giants they are OP. If you have even 1 range unit that can shoot Giant it is insane damage without retalation. And most range units that counter him HARD are either 400-500 in price range in case of infantry(but infantry are harder to keep shooting it due to low speed, so you need quite often 2 such units) or 500-750 in case of skirmish cavalry. Vs 1500 gold unit. It is 2x-3x cost effective solution to any Giant. And quite fast solution. And you would still has said unit after spending ammo on killing Giant. Good luck finding solution of range units with such cost effectivness and such low investment.

    Giant need at least 20% missile resist for start to not be such good target for missiles. Without enemy missiles he is quite viable and balanced unit right now.

    All the factions that have giants are decent at shutting down backlines though. GS, Norsc, Beast men are all excellent at that. Chaos isn't as good tbf but Chaos has huge gaps in their roster.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Green0 said:


    missiles are not OP.

    Vs target like Giants they are OP. If you have even 1 range unit that can shoot Giant it is insane damage without retalation. And most range units that counter him HARD are either 400-500 in price range in case of infantry(but infantry are harder to keep shooting it due to low speed, so you need quite often 2 such units) or 500-750 in case of skirmish cavalry. Vs 1500 gold unit. It is 2x-3x cost effective solution to any Giant. And quite fast solution. And you would still has said unit after spending ammo on killing Giant. Good luck finding solution of range units with such cost effectivness and such low investment.

    Giant need at least 20% missile resist for start to not be such good target for missiles. Without enemy missiles he is quite viable and balanced unit right now.

    so don't bring Giants on big maps or vs factions that can deny it easily and will typically spam archers vs you? It doesn't need to be good vs all factions.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Quite good example why Giants suck. Starting from 12 minutes to 15 minutes. 1 unit of skirmish cavalry that has less than half ammo was enough to drop most of Giants health. Despite screening and dodging attempt. And it is game vs HjalleNalle on large tournament, not some noname player, so quite competitive. And i still had after that healthy unit cavalry that can cycle charge infantry just fine.


    Missile units are OP vs Giants it is fact. And Giant need missile resist to be viable.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Green0 said:


    so don't bring Giants on big maps or vs factions that can deny it easily and will typically spam archers vs you? It doesn't need to be good vs all factions.

    Don't bring Giants at all. Cause you do not need missile spam to kill Giant. You need 1 unit of skirmish cavalry or 2 units of missile infantry.
    Yeah, this is why Giants are viable only vs VC.
    OrkLads said:


    All the factions that have giants are decent at shutting down backlines though. GS, Norsc, Beast men are all excellent at that. Chaos isn't as good tbf but Chaos has huge gaps in their roster.

    Problem are that you cannot shutdown backline as cost effective as you can shutdown Giant with missiles. This is why it is bs. You have unit that can be countered with 500 gold. But to counter this 500 gold investment how much you need to spend? And this is with 1500 gold hold hole in you roster.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    tank3487 said:


    Don't bring Giants at all. Cause you do not need missile spam to kill Giant. You need 1 unit of skirmish cavalry or 2 units of missile infantry.
    Yeah, this is why Giants are viable only vs VC.

    I've used them to decent success vs Norsca also for example. Probably viable vs a bunch of other factions too like vs GS.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Green0 said:


    I've used them to decent success vs Norsca also for example. Probably viable vs a bunch of other factions too like vs GS.

    It is not viable vs Norsca if Norsca do bring some range. You pay 1500 for juicy target. It is even without mention of AL range option that Norsca can field(but cav are more universal of course).
    Cannot find replay, but there is even more one sided game vs Norsca, where slade_x had bringed double giants as BM. And i had javelins that time. Giants can work only if enemy has no range at all.

    Why not give Giants missile resist? It would not break ANY matchup. Cause only faction vs which Giant are strong pick right now are VC.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Green0 said:


    I've used them to decent success vs Norsca also for example. Probably viable vs a bunch of other factions too like vs GS.

    It is not viable vs Norsca if Norsca do bring some range. You pay 1500 for juicy target. It is even without mention of AL range option that Norsca can field(but cav are more universal of course).
    Cannot find replay, but there is even more one sided game vs Norsca, where slade_x had bringed double giants as BM. And i had javelins that time. Giants can work only if enemy has no range at all.

    Why not give Giants missile resist? It would not break ANY matchup. Cause only faction vs which Giant are strong pick right now are VC.
    you can capture javelins with something like Centigors or Poison Warhounds.

    If you misplay a Giant, it's not a good reason for it to get buffed, at 1500g it can't be much cheaper and it certainly doesn't deserve missile resist. either considering it has 9000 HP and 100 LD.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Green0 said:


    either considering it has 9000 HP and 100 LD.

    Lol. 300 gold goblins has 6700 hp and 25 armor. It is not argument at all.
    You speak about 9k like it a lot for target of range unit. Giant cannot dodge unlike other SEM and take more damage than infantry units due to size. All missiles that you fire at him would end decreasing his hp. Any range are insanely cost effective vs 1500 gold 30 armor unit.
    Green0 said:


    If you misplay a Giant

    I do not play Giant. I want to win. When my oponent bring Giant it is 1500 gold handicap that i can use. Only exception are VC. And in matchup with VC it is quite balanced unit.
    Green0 said:


    you can capture javelins with something like Centigors or Poison Warhounds.

    And you can afford to overhelm his 500 gold missiles protection with 1.5k of gold spended on missile magnet? Be real. This is why i propose missile resist, with it you would be forced to spend at least 700-750 gold on missile counter to Giant and would let at least some openning.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    missile resist. is out of the question. Basically asking to create more Mammoths (broken monsters) instead of nerfing overperforming monsters down a notch.

    And by the way in melee the Giant is worth way more than 1500g due to its 60 MA 600 WS 100 LD and 9000 HP it can duel down most monsters in this game.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited October 30
    Green0 said:

    missile resist. is out of the question. Basically asking to create more Mammoths (broken monsters) instead of nerfing overperforming monsters down a notch.

    How do VC manage to deal with this scary Giants with no range options at all? Giants are not scary at all if you have spears infantry support(and VC spears are not that good to begin with). It is good mostly vs SEMs. Most of which are much faster.

    I see only broken missiles that can counter triple it is cost with such ease.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Green0 said:

    missile resist. is out of the question. Basically asking to create more Mammoths (broken monsters) instead of nerfing overperforming monsters down a notch.

    How do VC manage to deal with this scary Giants with no range options at all? Giants are not scary at all if you have spears infantry support(and VC spears are not that good to begin with). It is good mostly vs SEMs. Most of which are much faster.
    not rvery faction has access to Bloodknights, Blood Dragon with Helm or Terrorgheists.

    Maybe something we could agree on is making Giants 52 speed for +100g, you would have your missile resist in form of less walk time and I would have 9k effective HP vs archers not 11-12k. Unfortunately that’s not what CA wants but missile resist. is something that makes me really uncomfortable. Wulfrik on Mammoth has it for some reason and it’s the main reason why he got a nasty +200g last patch since his effective HP vs missiles is like 13-14k.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Green0 said:


    Wulfrik on Mammoth has it for some reason and it’s the main reason why he got a nasty +200g last patch since his effective HP vs missiles is like 13-14k.

    Wulfrik has armor. It seems that you underestimate how huge 30 vs 80 armor difference. Plus Mammonths are faster than Giant and can push to missile infantry. And still missiles are extremely good counter to mammonths.
    Green0 said:


    not rvery faction has access to Bloodknights, Blood Dragon with Helm or Terrorgheists.

    It is not like other factions have no tools vs Large on they own.
    BKs and TGs are not that good vs Giant alone. Main tool vs him are get his targetting off with infantry or spears. It is not Star Dragon that has insane MD that cannot be penetrated by most melee tools, really. It is slow 10k of hp without armor. Anything that has AL damage it heavy.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    Missiles aren't even remotely a "good counter" to Mammoths. Past patch people have been spamming Norsca in tournaments for good reason, insanely strong Fimirs vs large units + autowin Mammoths vs infantry (even if you take say 7k HP from a gunline, then you get on top of his archers and it's GG and it makes 0 diff if ur Mammoth lord has 8000 or 3000 HP left).

    I'd like to not see history repeat itself and have another patch where people spam a missile-immune monster to melee rush vs 15/15 factions like happened with Norsca.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,621Registered Users
    edited October 30
    Green0 said:

    Missiles aren't even remotely a "good counter" to Mammoths.

    Disposable_Hero recommends combined arms. Or should only non-Elves be forced to jump through hoops and overspend just to counter CA's broken absuive SEMs?
    Post edited by Ephraim_Dalton on

  • tzurugbytzurugby Posts: 262Registered Users
    tank3487 said:



    Giant need at least 20% missile resist for start to not be such good target for missiles. Without enemy missiles he is quite viable and balanced unit right now.

    I think this is a good solution. Missile resist is not a catch all, but a targeted stat that does not break other areas of the units capabilities..... cost reduction and heath increases may help as a proxy for missile resist but does not get to the technical reasoning behind why giants are so vulnerable to this specific damage type.

    Missile units are in part balanced by their accuracy stat, and their projectile velocity.

    Giants have a very large hit box so even inaccurate missile units with slow projectiles "can't miss". This is also in part because of their very slow speed compared to other large units and they have no "jenky" animations.

    For example, the skaven lord can take their bell wagon mount and even though it is slow, it has a crazy back and forth animation that can randomly dodge entire volleys.

    Beyond that, Giants have an abnormally low armour stat which puts them at risk against even the weakest missiles. I have not tested this, but would not at all be surprised if a single group of peasant archers couldn't take a giant out all by themselves if allowed to fire unimpeded.

  • Modern_ErasmusModern_Erasmus Posts: 131Registered Users
    Giants being slow and weak to non-ap missiles is the only reason they're balanced. They have massive health pools, fantastic melee stats, some of the highest weapon strength in the game, and unlike many of their low leadership monstrous peers are virtually unbreakable.

    As is, they're a fantastic value for 1500 and that's why you're seeing them so often nowadays. They don't need further buffs.
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