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Saurus Warriors, what about them?

M3HowM3How Posts: 47Registered Users
I was thinking about Lizardmen units and their roles in this circus and I'm kinda puzzled. As Saurus warriors with shields are "basic" lizard infantry next to skink cohorts (and javelins) and their task is to hold as long as possible I don't really understand what for we do have Saurus warriors without shields...

Price difference is small enough so people pick shield variant most of the time anyways.
Both types do have the same speed.
Both types have same hp pool.
Size of both unit types are the same.

Only defense stats are different.
Why not to differenciate those units? Make unshielded variant faster a bit, or give them a bit more weapon strenght (as they do use both hands to fight), or more ap for unshielded variant [ofc those changes would require changing price so they wouldn't end up as op unit].

A small change could bring more fun/strategies/options to mp battles (heck even in campaign there is no point in recruiting unshielded variant as few turns further you'll have shielded ones which are way better...).

Fellow warhammer total war players what do you guys think?
CA what do you guys think?
Grumpy Guard in-game
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Comments

  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 323Registered Users
    Saurus without shields and saurus spears are undertuned if you compare their price-stat difference with saurus warriors with shields vs. say bleakswords and dreadspears or empire spearmen vs. swordsmen. Shields and spears are significantly better in other factions. There's no major rework needed, just slight rebalancing along the same lines as DE.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    you guys have it wrong, Saurus Warriors with shields are overtuned and need nerfs not the other way around lmao.

    Small example:

    Saurus Warriors without shield, 750g
    29 MA
    28 MD

    Saurus Warriors with shield, 800g
    29 MA
    34 MD

    Let's say both fight something like Empire Swordsmen (32 MA)

    Vs the unshielded variant, Emp Swordsmen have 39% chance to hit

    Vs the shielded variant however, Emp Swordsmen have a 33% chance to hit.

    This means, roughly speaking, that in melee, the shielded variant has 15% more durability (~15% more HP) for only 6% more cost.

    This of course not to mention the 35% extra HP they gain vs missiles.

    Lastly compare to shields of any other unit in the game, you'll see that they pay more both in absolute (~75g generally) and relative terms.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 323Registered Users
    Green, your example only shows there's a discrepancy between saurus with and without shields. Concluding it must be the shielded variant that's OP then is pure bias.

    Saurus with shields are still not as good as berserkers, chaos warriors, tomb guard, grave guard, the RoR gors, the RoR pilgrims or big uns with the Waagh. They barely beat white lions, who have AP, a bonus in the woods and 360° missile resistance. Something tells me it's only that last comparison you care about though. ;)
  • tzurugbytzurugby Posts: 262Registered Users
    The stratification of Saurus Warriors has bothered me ever since the Lizardmen were released as it started out unbalanced.

    Whether you believe the Shielded variant are OP or the unshielded variant are UP, they should be about 100 gold apart.

    That means either:

    Saurus Warriors - 700 G
    Saurus Warriors w Shield - 800 G

    or

    Saurus Warriors - 725 G
    Saurus Warriors w Shield - 825 G

    or

    Saurus Warriors - 750 G
    Saurus Warriors w Shield - 850 G


    This would make a lot more sense and they would show up in terms of the value generated in a melee engagement correctly, as the Shielded version would generate less value in a melee fight, but would last longer and get there in better shape because of their missile protection.


    The same goes for the spear version, but they are objectively weaker than Saurus and very expensive for a non-ap spear, though they have solid Weapon Strength..... I would put them as follows:


    Saurus Warriors Spears - 675 G
    Saurus Warriors Spears w Shield - 775 G
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    edited October 29

    Green, your example only shows there's a discrepancy between saurus with and without shields. Concluding it must be the shielded variant that's OP then is pure bias.

    Saurus with shields are still not as good as berserkers, chaos warriors, tomb guard, grave guard, the RoR gors, the RoR pilgrims or big uns with the Waagh. They barely beat white lions, who have AP, a bonus in the woods and 360° missile resistance. Something tells me it's only that last comparison you care about though. ;)

    you're right, they should destroy absolutely everything, including units they have no right to like Chaos Warriors with their monstrous MD and armor or the insanely underpriced Berserkers.

    FYI I doubt they lose to Tomb Guard since the 800g variant beats Longbeards (both variants) and White Lions so that's a straight up lie.

    Not to mention the totally ridiculous comparisons with RoR units, which are often overtuned by design.

    I mean if you're not convinced run tests, I have and I know for a fact 800g is the overperforming one besides like I said normally you pay 75g for shields upgrade (100g on cav) idk why you're pretending like paying 50g is normal especially when it gives you such a large boost (15%) in melee.
    tzurugby said:

    The stratification of Saurus Warriors has bothered me ever since the Lizardmen were released as it started out unbalanced.

    Whether you believe the Shielded variant are OP or the unshielded variant are UP, they should be about 100 gold apart.

    That means either:

    Saurus Warriors - 700 G
    Saurus Warriors w Shield - 800 G

    or

    Saurus Warriors - 725 G
    Saurus Warriors w Shield - 825 G

    or

    Saurus Warriors - 750 G
    Saurus Warriors w Shield - 850 G

    Saurus Warriors 750g
    Saurus Warriors (shields) 825g.

    Just like any other unit in the game, 75g for shields (Emp Spearmen, Bret ones and so on and so forth).
  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    edited October 29
    Yet another epic fail balancing $800 saurus should lose to $750 warriors. Completely clueless when the other comes with silvershield 100 armor and $50 cheaper
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  • Lord_DistamorfinLord_Distamorfin Posts: 434Registered Users
    CA still needs to address the problem of Rampage on Saurus and Kroxigors. Predatory Fighter isn't represented in-game outside of just being a melee attack skill. Primal Instincts is still a fundamental problem with the Lizardmen that CA should address.
  • Meteor18Meteor18 Posts: 69Registered Users
    yst said:

    Yet another epic fail balancing $800 saurus should lose to $750 warriors. Completely clueless when the other comes with silvershield 100 armor and $50 cheaper

    The primary role of that 100 Armor of Chaos Warriors is to negate the effectiveness of low AP of units like Saurus Warriors.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,423Registered Users
    Meteor18 said:

    yst said:

    Yet another epic fail balancing $800 saurus should lose to $750 warriors. Completely clueless when the other comes with silvershield 100 armor and $50 cheaper

    The primary role of that 100 Armor of Chaos Warriors is to negate the effectiveness of low AP of units like Saurus Warriors.
    Yeah because I regularly counter both Saurus and Chaos warriors with rangers. Works basically the same really.

  • zer0zer0 Posts: 302Registered Users
    650 gold Longbeards beat 750 gold Forsaken because of their armor
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 916Registered Users
    Saurus are fine. They fall into a weird place where 800 gold is extremely expensive for non-specialized infantry. At that point most factions a starting to push specialist options (empire/bret are running greatswords, everyone else has armored gw).

    They are too expensive to really fill as a chaff, as a holding unit they are just too costly compared to something like DW or spears, they don't cut through infantry super fast due to their stats, and they arn't really great enough at killing infantry to crack a frontline quickly or ensure an infantry win.

    Meanwhile for the same price greenskins, norsicans, and chaos will have torn you apart and other factions have tools to force infantry engages to go well. Saurus just don't do that.

    I think its fine that Saurus perform well in an extended fights. They come at such an awkward price point in a roster with such mediocre infantry that its justified.
  • zer0zer0 Posts: 302Registered Users
    Yeah the tiers aren't particularly good for saurus, the shielded ones are pretty much autopicks over the non shielded and the spears are in a kinda weird spot, maybe some AP would help.
  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Posts: 535Registered Users
    edited October 29
    Shielded variants (with a few weird exceptions like Gors) are straight improvements and much more cost effective in any case where you're actually expecting to use them as line infantry rather than a disposable roadblock. Compared to unshielded variants, Bretonnian shielded spears get silver shields, +2 MA and +8MD, and Empire ones get +8MD and 23% shorter attack interval (huge hidden buff). By comparison the bronze shield and +6 MD the shielded saurus spears gain over unshielded is minor.

    https://twwstats.com/unitscards?compare=3&units=f=0&k=wh_dlc07_brt_inf_spearmen_at_arms_1&r=0&v=2078602271960950043&units=f=0&k=wh_main_brt_inf_spearmen_at_arms&r=0&v=2078602271960950043&units=f=0&k=wh_main_emp_inf_spearmen_0&r=0&v=2078602271960950043&units=f=0&k=wh_main_emp_inf_spearmen_1&r=0&v=2078602271960950043&units=f=0&k=wh2_main_lzd_inf_saurus_spearmen_0&r=0&v=2078602271960950043&units=f=0&k=wh2_main_lzd_inf_saurus_spearmen_1&r=0&v=2078602271960950043

    As Green has raised the point about hit % let's say they're getting attacked by something with 32MA (like Empire swords):

    Bret spears 32+40-30=42% hit chance
    Bret spears shields 32+40-38=34% hit chance
    Saurus spears 32+40-32=40% hit chance
    Saurus spears shields 32+40-38=34% hit chance

    Clearly the shielded bret spears are gaining more in terms of not being hit. And they also gain MA and silver shields, which the shielded saurus don't. It's clearly a far bigger improvement than the shielded saurus get.

    Of course as the saurus are a more expensive unit you'd expect to pay more for each stat improvement. Even so, shields dominate unshielded in both cases to a similar degree IMO. Likewise empire.

    So I don't really think it's a saurus specific thing. I'm also not sure it's a bad thing. It's just a feature of the game that if you can afford to give your guys shields, you generally do. Is that really so crazy? And there are still cases where unshielded are worth having (e.g. because you are throwing them away as a cheap roadblock or can't afford shields).
  • another505another505 Posts: 992Registered Users
    I think saurus are good as generic inf that is able to handle any situation well

    Only problem is against high armor inf. It will still hold well and lzm got plenty of tools to deal with it
  • FerrousTarkusFerrousTarkus Posts: 525Registered Users
    Lets not forget their nearly unbreakable moral that as beastmen I really envy. 🤷‍♂️
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    Shielded ones could use +25g and +1MD.
  • alpaca2alpaca2 Posts: 20Registered Users
    edited October 30
    Saurus have high HP and WS, they are designed to be a chaff killer, they should not trade well with high armour high MD units like Chaos Warriors,but they defeat Chaos Warriors in 1v1.


    They trade well vs Black Guards (1300cost elite infantry with 100 armour and 48md)


  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    And they should, its $800, warriors t $750 with silvershield.

    Go have a look at big uns, basically saurus that r modified into anti large
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  • alpaca2alpaca2 Posts: 20Registered Users
    edited October 30
    yst said:

    And they should, its $800, warriors t $750 with silvershield.

    Go have a look at big uns, basically saurus that r modified into anti large

    I do not think 20% missile block is better than 900hp.
    White Lions have same cost with Saurus but they lose to Saurus badly too.

    Saurus are very strong and LZM is a top tier faction, they do not need any buffs now.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    yst said:

    And they should, its $800, warriors t $750 with silvershield.

    Go have a look at big uns, basically saurus that r modified into anti large

    yup except Saurus got a minuscule +20 armor, shields and more MD... totally irrelevant I know.

    More WS also.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    yst said:

    And they should, its $800, warriors t $750 with silvershield.

    Go have a look at big uns, basically saurus that r modified into anti large

    yup except Saurus got a minuscule +20 armor, shields and more MD... totally irrelevant I know.

    More WS also.
    Orc Big Uns have:

    - +450 HP
    - +9 MA
    - +8 Bonus vs Large
    - +11 Charge Bonus

    Saurus (Shields)have:

    - +10 Armour
    - +35% Missile Block chance
    - +7 Leadership
    - +6 MD
    - +10 WS (5ap, 5 non-ap)

    Seems like pretty equal value in their stats tbh. Only thing I could think could maybe use a nerf for them is the buff granted by primal instincts. The MA bonus should be +4-6 instead of +8.
  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Posts: 301Registered Users
    Saurus warriors are completly fine. If anything is needed, is to nerf the MA buff they gain when rampage triggers.
  • AsamuAsamu Posts: 581Registered Users
    edited October 30
    Green0 said:

    FYI I doubt they lose to Tomb Guard since the 800g variant beats Longbeards (both variants) and White Lions so that's a straight up lie.

    Longbeards cost 650, and Saurus do not trade efficiently with them. Though that comparison isn't great, because shield longbeards are probably the best front line infantry in the game for the cost. Great weapon longbeards do just fine vs Saurus for what they cost, especially considering they have ITP and encourage.

    Tomb guard can beat unshielded Saurus some of the time, even without the realm of souls triggering; if not for the melee attack buff when below 20% hp, Saurus would probably lose it more often than not. With realm of souls triggering, they could very well beat shielded Sarurus sometimes. It's a pretty close fight either way.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    edited October 30
    Asamu said:


    Longbeards cost 650, and Saurus do not trade efficiently with them. Though that comparison isn't great, because shield longbeards are probably the best front line infantry in the game for the cost. Great weapon longbeards do just fine vs Saurus for what they cost, especially considering they have ITP and encourage.

    Nope that's another straight up lie, did tests time ago, Saurus survive with 25 to 30% HP and something like 33 models on average, not bad trade at all and you also need to consider that 100 armor is not an ideal engagement for Saurus and that DW infantry is underpriced for the stats it gets.

    Vs Tomb Guard I didn't run tests though based on you being wrong about Saurus I don't have a lot of faith in you being right about Tomb Guard.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Posts: 218Registered Users
    I actually think unshielded should go down to 725 for both spear and hand weapon.

    Might be controversial. But at that price there is enough difference to actually think about it.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    edited October 30
    alpaca2 said:


    White Lions have same cost with Saurus but they lose to Saurus badly too.

    Dont even know wth ppl use whitelions in comparison for.

    White lions r totally a dif league, top tier of their class, go co,pare to chaos 2h and other 2h. None has 30% resist, none have their top def and they have strider.

    U wanna compare white lions, go compare to wildwood which they get + frikking 50 armor and 30% missile resist. They r much more effective and better than chaos 2h who not only costs more but perform worse than white lions in a staggering number of situations. White lions r fast, blocks significantly more missile dmg than any other 2h of the same class, being one of the fastest u can be sure they get to the lines with as minimal missile dmg as possible.
    Green0 said:

    totally irrelevant I know.

    More WS also.

    Nice, finally improving, keep that up and ull get better.
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  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users

    I actually think unshielded should go down to 725 for both spear and hand weapon.

    Might be controversial. But at that price there is enough difference to actually think about it.

    That shouldve happen ages ago. Personally i dont they should even exists. Its like unshielded chaos warrior, makes 0 sense at all. U do it for bret men at arm thats fine because they suck anyway. Its not really a good thing on saurus. They should remove unshield altogether or -$2

    Saurus spear still suck badly.
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  • AsamuAsamu Posts: 581Registered Users
    edited October 30
    Green0 said:

    Asamu said:


    Longbeards cost 650, and Saurus do not trade efficiently with them. Though that comparison isn't great, because shield longbeards are probably the best front line infantry in the game for the cost. Great weapon longbeards do just fine vs Saurus for what they cost, especially considering they have ITP and encourage.

    Nope that's another straight up lie, did tests time ago, Saurus survive with 25 to 30% HP and something like 33 models on average, not bad trade at all and you also need to consider that 100 armor is not an ideal engagement for Saurus and that DW infantry is underpriced for the stats it gets.

    Vs Tomb Guard I didn't run tests though based on you being wrong about Saurus I don't have a lot of faith in you being right about Tomb Guard.
    Longbeards vs Saurus is pretty close if both units have a similar frontage. Saurus win it with ~1k-~2.5k hp remaining, depending on the width of the frontage (in thinner formations, Longbeards perform relatively better). Considering they cost ~23% more, that's really not efficient, since Saurus will route close to 10% hp.

    That's also in 1v1 unit tests, where balance of power is shifting more than it would if more units were on the field, so the Longbeards route a bit early.

    More expensive units generally trade more favorably than the proportional difference in cost, in 1v1 testing, because of how the relative strengths play out (Lanchester's law); similar numbers fighting favors the stronger unit disproportionately more if numbers are equal (for the same reason that if you have more units and the units are identical, you will win the fight far more decisively; with 1000 idential gun infantry per side, if one side splits into 2 500 segments, and one stays at 1000, the one with 1000 will end the fight with ~707 remaining, rather than the fight being equal). If you run 6 units of longbeards vs 5 units of Saurus w/shields, the 6 units of longbeards win the fight pretty easily. with about 33% total hp remaining, despite having less funds invested into it.

    If you put 5 chevrons on the Longbeards (bringing their cost to 793), the Longbeards win the fight even on wider frontages, though it's very close, with only ~1000hp remaining on the longbeards at the end.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    ^ 800g Saurus vs Longbeards, in super stretched formation (the only one that matters), Saurus win with 2-2.1k HP on average and something like 32 models. The results vs both LB variants are actually similar since GW are more killy but also less tanky.

    2k HP out of the 7.6k something Saurus have is more than 25% HP remaining i.e. 200g give or take. 32 models is almost 1/2 models so like 400g if you wanna count that way.

    More importantly I can’t stress enough that:

    a) Saurus shouldn’t trade well into 100 armor even though they have something like 18 AP that’s still only 1/3 of their WS

    b) Saurus have little business trading vs 48 MD

    all in all I think Longbeards are the unit that shows best how overtuned Saurus are. Alternatively you can also test vs Plague Monks, White Lions or Wardancers, all engagements that Saurus win even though they shouldn’t.
  • Meteor18Meteor18 Posts: 69Registered Users
    yst said:


    Dont even know wth ppl use whitelions in comparison for.

    White lions r totally a dif league, top tier of their class, go co,pare to chaos 2h and other 2h. None has 30% resist, none have their top def and they have strider.

    U wanna compare white lions, go compare to wildwood which they get + frikking 50 armor and 30% missile resist. They r much more effective and better than chaos 2h who not only costs more but perform worse than white lions in a staggering number of situations. White lions r fast, blocks significantly more missile dmg than any other 2h of the same class, being one of the fastest u can be sure they get to the lines with as minimal missile dmg as possible.

    White lions have 30% missile resist, but Chaos Warriors have around 1200 more HP (23%) and 10 more armor. So in practice White Lions are not significantly more resistant to missiles. They are also more susceptible to cav and magic. In melee I'm pretty sure CW GW win pretty handily (as they should) because of that extra HP, as their stats are identical. White Lions have 6 more combined MA/MD with martial prowess, without it they have 8 less. CW GW have a bit better WS and CB. Both units are fine by the way.

    As for Saurus Warriors, I don't they need any buff. They have huge HP, decent speed, good leadership, okay armor and high mass. They are a very tanky reliable unit and also beat most of the units in their price range. The idea that they are slightly better infantry units in infantry oriented factions like Chaos or GS at the this price range, doesn't prove anything.
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