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Balance changes for Beastmen and Wood elves

Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,290Registered Users
edited October 30 in Balancing Discussions
Here are my thoughts for the most needed changes for the wood elves and Beastmen. Feel free to ask me if you have questions about the reasoning for a particular change.

Beastmen


1. Harpies +5 speed
2. Bestigor(+ROR): +3LD, +2 speed
3. Add feral manticore
4. Khazrak: Dark mail, change activation condition to : active if enemy within 55m.
5. Malagor: +7 speed
6. Gorebull: Give him wings to match his ability to fly (or fix his animations :wink: )
7. Traitor kin: fix so that it is more distinct from devolve i.e good vs single combatants and bad vs infantry.
8. Mantle of ghorok: aoe on overcast with appropriate WoM adjustment
9. Giant: +3 speed

Wood elves

1. Waywatchers: -50 cost, -2hp, +25m activation range for hawkish precision
2. Hawkeyes: add missing bonus vs infantry, -2hp, +25m activation range for HP
3. Eternal guard : +50 mass
4. Hawk riders: fear, +5LD, +100 mass
5. Orion: +21 speed,+40 range, +hawkish precision, +13 ammo, -5 MD, +20 physical resistance, give back magic attacks, +150 cost
6. Cloak of Isha: active at 30% HP, change wardsave to 60% magic resist, -50 cost.
7. Forest dragon: +5 LD
8. Treeline: +2 AP
9. Waystalker: +50 cost, add castable loec's shroud and a single use smokebomb, and remove potion and warrior bane
10. Spellsinger (unicorn): +16 speed, +6 charge bonus, +20AP/-20WD




Post edited by Loupi_ on
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Comments

  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,355Registered Users
    I think a lot of that is reasonable, some of it I don't agree with, some quite vehemently.
    Beastmen:
    1)Would the harpy buff be for all harpies or just beastmen harpies? Either way harpies are already a VERY strong choice, so such a buff would have to come with a 25 or 50 gold price hike imo.
    2)LD buff is fine, speed buff I don't agree with, bestigors are already the fastest heavy infantry in the game by far, they don't need to be in the ballpark of wardancers with their trait up.
    3)Sounds good.
    4)Sounds good, still a stupid expensive item for just that.
    5)Good
    6)Very good, maybe even 2 sets of wings.
    7)Agree
    8)Sounds cool, I already quite like this spell and a buff like that could be fun.
    9)Once again, beastmen only, or beastmen and others? Not necessarily opposed thoguh.

    Wood Elves:
    1)Yes to cost cut, not sure I agree with further nerfs to their performance, they took a hefty nerfing last patch.
    2)Sure to the added BvsI, absolutely no to removing smokebomb without major price cuts. The unit is already rather rare and BvsI is nowhere near the ballpark of smokebomb for utility.
    3)Sure
    4)Sure, doesnt really help them that much though, imo.
    5)That's like 400 gold worth of buffs and you want him to only jump in cost by 150? Also, I absolutely abhor the idea of him regaining magic attacks. Dwarf magic resist(especially with runelord seat) already F's up the vast majority of Wood Elf lords damage output, given that both tree variants, dragons and bow damage is all magical. Unless we're finally getting that spell and magic damage split and stunties lose their magic resist, the last thing I want is for all of the various elf lords to be little more than window dressing in this MU.
    6)With the above buff desire, this makes some sense, but 60% magic resist is just meh. I assume the goal here is to make orion a hard counter to brettonian grails and allarielle DP blobs, but I can't say im a fan of the approach.
    7-10)All decent suggestions imo.
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  • hanenhanen Posts: 347Registered Users
    I agree with most changes. I do however have some thoughts regarding some of them.

    1. Harpies. I don't think speed is what Harpies need. I would rather give them +5 LD.
    2. Mantle of Gorok. BM already hit pretty hard in combat. This would make them absolutely devastate every front line in the game. Big no no.
    3. Orion. I don't like the idea of having fast unbreakable SEM. These changes could be done when units lose unbreakable somehow in during the battle.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,229Registered Users
    I haven't played Beastmen enough to have a clear opinion on such specific suggestions, but I disagree with almost everything about Wood Elves.

    1, 2) I think Waywatchers are fine for the most part now.

    3) Ok, not sure it will have enough of an impact, to be meaningful.

    4) No. Hawk Riders are fine I think. Sure, it might make sense to give them more LD than 60, but flying missile units can be difficult to deal with for a lot of factions.

    5, 6) That would be a nerf on the whole for Orion, I feel, and he would get a price increase as well. Cloak of Isha is the only thing that's keeping him as a decent pick at the moment.

    7) I think Forest Dragon is fine

    8) Treekin +2 AP. Ok, makes sense. They're certainly among the worst monstrous infantry units in the game.

    9) Waystalker is fine I think.

    10) Ok, I agree with this. I'd also like a unicorn mount for Glady and a Great White Stag mount for Glord.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    Treekin shouldnt get +2 ap, they r already really, really good. Tough as hell and the recent att swap buff made them extremely powerful.

    Dryad should be the one getting +2 ap not treekin
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  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,290Registered Users

    I haven't played Beastmen enough to have a clear opinion on such specific suggestions, but I disagree with almost everything about Wood Elves.

    1, 2) I think Waywatchers are fine for the most part now.

    3) Ok, not sure it will have enough of an impact, to be meaningful.

    4) No. Hawk Riders are fine I think. Sure, it might make sense to give them more LD than 60, but flying missile units can be difficult to deal with for a lot of factions.

    5, 6) That would be a nerf on the whole for Orion, I feel, and he would get a price increase as well. Cloak of Isha is the only thing that's keeping him as a decent pick at the moment.

    7) I think Forest Dragon is fine

    8) Treekin +2 AP. Ok, makes sense. They're certainly among the worst monstrous infantry units in the game.

    9) Waystalker is fine I think.

    10) Ok, I agree with this. I'd also like a unicorn mount for Glady and a Great White Stag mount for Glord.

    1. I think cost increase was too harsh given the cost of WE units, so undo it and need stats mildly.
    3. I think it would help a bit (that's the point, each change is meant to be quite small so all together it's impactful but not OP)
    4. Hawks are mostly a melee unit and having them rout to a pair of fellbats, or immediately terror rout to a flyer makes quite weak in the air sometimes. Also mass is to help get out of ground blobs, cf Pegasus knights mass changes.
    5-6. I think it would be clearly an overall buff to Orion if you micro him.
    7. Forest dragon has less leadership than sun dragon, it often can be routed after just a few rear hits, thanks to its squishiness.
    9. I think -100 cost reduction was too much, so it should be partially reverted. Also he has the worst items in the game, so some cool tactical items would be most welcome.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,290Registered Users
    hanen said:

    I agree with most changes. I do however have some thoughts regarding some of them.

    1. Harpies. I don't think speed is what Harpies need. I would rather give them +5 LD.
    2. Mantle of Gorok. BM already hit pretty hard in combat. This would make them absolutely devastate every front line in the game. Big no no.
    3. Orion. I don't like the idea of having fast unbreakable SEM. These changes could be done when units lose unbreakable somehow in during the battle.

    1. Fair enough, I think more speed would help them (and Dark elves) in their hard matchups without really doing anything in their good ones.
    2. It would be pretty strong, but it could be balanced with a high magic cost, like 20+ for example.
    3. I don't get it, undead are fast and essentially unbreakable, also green knight is faster, ethereal and regens in forest. If you're worried about draw kiting then that's up to CA with fixing the quick battle mechanics, so that balance of power (or some other metric) decides the winner.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users
    Wood Elves

    1. No changes to Waywatchers. Finally a balanced unit and moving beyond the WW spam, no need to return to it
    2. No changes to WW ROR except giving them their bonus VS infantry.
    3. Not sure.
    4. Not sure.
    5. No changes to Orion except maybe buffing hawk talons damage a small amount and +2 ammo.
    6. No changes to cloak of isha.
    7. Forest dragon is fine at price point.
    8. Treekin need something to clear chaff more than they need ap. They need something but just like with dragon princes not sure more ap is the answer.
    9. No to both ideas and cost increase. Warriors bane could be - 5MA or something similar at CA's discretion.
    10. Not sure, seems like a massive buff
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,290Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    I think a lot of that is reasonable, some of it I don't agree with, some quite vehemently.
    Beastmen:
    1)Would the harpy buff be for all harpies or just beastmen harpies? Either way harpies are already a VERY strong choice, so such a buff would have to come with a 25 or 50 gold price hike imo.
    2)LD buff is fine, speed buff I don't agree with, bestigors are already the fastest heavy infantry in the game by far, they don't need to be in the ballpark of wardancers with their trait up.
    3)Sounds good.
    4)Sounds good, still a stupid expensive item for just that.
    5)Good
    6)Very good, maybe even 2 sets of wings.
    7)Agree
    8)Sounds cool, I already quite like this spell and a buff like that could be fun.
    9)Once again, beastmen only, or beastmen and others? Not necessarily opposed thoguh.

    Wood Elves:

    6)With the above buff desire, this makes some sense, but 60% magic resist is just meh. I assume the goal here is to make orion a hard counter to brettonian grails and allarielle DP blobs, but I can't say im a fan of the approach.

    I absolutely despise how Orion is complete trash without the OP cloak of Isha. The goal is to make Orion good on his own and make the cloak a non-auto pick item thats good only in certain matchups, or at least not as good in every matchup.

    Yes it would help vs Bret and HE magic attack blobs, but it also helps other factions that can struggle to kill him when below the threshold. It also helps prevent him getting instantly sniped by magic missile spam.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    BM

    1) Harpies are already a good unit honestly, if they need a buff to stats at all costs let it be LD buff.
    2) sure
    3) idk, Beastmen with airforce... do we really want that? I guess tho Feral Manticore is a beast unit if anything...
    4) sure
    5) sure
    6) no opinion on this
    7) yes too many spells in Wild lore overlap. First and second also (though one is weak and one strong vs armor, having 2 AoEs is not great)
    8) sure
    9) not a fan of buffing Giants 10 patches in a row. I think it's currently already fairly competitive after last buff. If it needs more speed, let it be like 52 speed and +100g to compensate.


    WE

    1) no strong opinion on this
    2) as above
    3) agreed
    4) no opinion on this
    5) sounds like a very substantial rework, not sure I can comment about the effects in a vacuum. Might end up being OP UP or balanced who knows.
    6) no opinion on this
    7) agreed and iirc Glade Lord also suffers from this
    8) no opinion on this
    9) idk I can't say I'm a fan of giving Unspottable to a unit with Arrow of Kurnous and homing shots.
    10) sure, Unicorn seems UP atm and a never picked mount.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,229Registered Users
    Loupi_ said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    I think a lot of that is reasonable, some of it I don't agree with, some quite vehemently.
    Beastmen:
    1)Would the harpy buff be for all harpies or just beastmen harpies? Either way harpies are already a VERY strong choice, so such a buff would have to come with a 25 or 50 gold price hike imo.
    2)LD buff is fine, speed buff I don't agree with, bestigors are already the fastest heavy infantry in the game by far, they don't need to be in the ballpark of wardancers with their trait up.
    3)Sounds good.
    4)Sounds good, still a stupid expensive item for just that.
    5)Good
    6)Very good, maybe even 2 sets of wings.
    7)Agree
    8)Sounds cool, I already quite like this spell and a buff like that could be fun.
    9)Once again, beastmen only, or beastmen and others? Not necessarily opposed thoguh.

    Wood Elves:

    6)With the above buff desire, this makes some sense, but 60% magic resist is just meh. I assume the goal here is to make orion a hard counter to brettonian grails and allarielle DP blobs, but I can't say im a fan of the approach.

    I absolutely despise how Orion is complete trash without the OP cloak of Isha. The goal is to make Orion good on his own and make the cloak a non-auto pick item thats good only in certain matchups, or at least not as good in every matchup.

    Yes it would help vs Bret and HE magic attack blobs, but it also helps other factions that can struggle to kill him when below the threshold. It also helps prevent him getting instantly sniped by magic missile spam.
    Cloak of Isha isn't really OP.

    Orion is still very vulnerable to burst damage. What makes the combo interesting is that against Wood Elves you don't need that much burst damage because most wood elf unit are bad in a grind, so catching them or doing damage from range is more important than burst damage.

    Orion really only becomes strong in late game once sources of burst damage are neutered.

    So, it works in keeping enemy honest, as they have to account for one more possibility.
  • DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users
    Let's avoid buffing Beastmen. They just recently got a heaping pile of buffs, and I suspect the buffs were a little too much, rather than too little. Maybe if we tone down razorgors, first.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,290Registered Users
    edited October 30



    Orion really only becomes strong in late game once sources of burst damage are neutered.

    Yeah exactly, so make him strong for the early/mid-game and less likely to be abusive and hard to kill in the end-game.

    Anyway we have discussed Orion in depth, both here and on discord; I think we just fundamentally disagree on our visions of our Lord Kurnous.
  • Gilgamesh1Gilgamesh1 Posts: 586Registered Users
    i agree on the BM part.

    but harpyes are already good,i think LD buff would be better.

    Bestigor LD buff it's very needed... BM just need better LD on their infantry since they are arguably weaker than Skaven in LD department.. +4 LD would set Bestigor at 70 making them decent at holding the line. they still have not fantastic armor and very low MD so they are not going to be a tanky infantry...but at least more resolute against terror bombing.
    plus, a lot of hight tier infantry unit have received big LD buffs without any adjustement so i think it would be great without ruin nothing

    Manticore would be great since we are likely to never see jabber or preyton...i would add it as a mount options for Lords also. i don't think it would be used a lot but would still be a decent options to spice up the roster AND would greatly improve the Lords like Malagor, Khazrak or regular Beastlord without making the BM a flying faction since they only have harpyes and weak archers to protect a flying lord. would make for a decent added option...something BM desperetely need

    i would add to the list:
    -chariot mount or manticore mount for Malagor (he should fly...so at least make him mobile)
    - -25 gold on Ungor Herd or slightly higher MA/CB to make them more hard hitting. they lose to 350 gold infantry...so if you are taking them for stalk+vanguard you may as well go for the spear variant that cost the same and is more versatile
    - -100 gold on regular Minos...they were already overcosted after the buff and i don't think they are going to be seen at 1300
  • nonentitynonentity Posts: 176Registered Users
    Traitor Kin in tabletop affected only cav and monsters I believe. Basically, all the enemy's beasts become feral and attacks their owner so CA should makes something similar like working only large entities.

    Everything else seems good, but if you are going to buff unicorns (which I think is a good idea) -- apply it to Bretonnia as well, even tho its the default choice for the Fay.
  • nonentitynonentity Posts: 176Registered Users
    Also Wardancers need a rework as elite infantry which WE currently lack. Make them similar to Sister of Slaughter and give them all their dance abilities.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,355Registered Users
    Loupi_ said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    I think a lot of that is reasonable, some of it I don't agree with, some quite vehemently.
    Beastmen:
    1)Would the harpy buff be for all harpies or just beastmen harpies? Either way harpies are already a VERY strong choice, so such a buff would have to come with a 25 or 50 gold price hike imo.
    2)LD buff is fine, speed buff I don't agree with, bestigors are already the fastest heavy infantry in the game by far, they don't need to be in the ballpark of wardancers with their trait up.
    3)Sounds good.
    4)Sounds good, still a stupid expensive item for just that.
    5)Good
    6)Very good, maybe even 2 sets of wings.
    7)Agree
    8)Sounds cool, I already quite like this spell and a buff like that could be fun.
    9)Once again, beastmen only, or beastmen and others? Not necessarily opposed thoguh.

    Wood Elves:

    6)With the above buff desire, this makes some sense, but 60% magic resist is just meh. I assume the goal here is to make orion a hard counter to brettonian grails and allarielle DP blobs, but I can't say im a fan of the approach.

    I absolutely despise how Orion is complete trash without the OP cloak of Isha. The goal is to make Orion good on his own and make the cloak a non-auto pick item thats good only in certain matchups, or at least not as good in every matchup.

    Yes it would help vs Bret and HE magic attack blobs, but it also helps other factions that can struggle to kill him when below the threshold. It also helps prevent him getting instantly sniped by magic missile spam.
    Killing him below the threshold isnt really that hard, he's still a large, low armor target with fairly mediocre MD, and as sarmatians noted, bursting through that isn't that hard. 44% damage resist makes him more resilient, but hardly invulnerable, especially given that every sort of damage is dishing out some hurt to him.
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  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,290Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    Loupi_ said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    I think a lot of that is reasonable, some of it I don't agree with, some quite vehemently.
    Beastmen:
    1)Would the harpy buff be for all harpies or just beastmen harpies? Either way harpies are already a VERY strong choice, so such a buff would have to come with a 25 or 50 gold price hike imo.
    2)LD buff is fine, speed buff I don't agree with, bestigors are already the fastest heavy infantry in the game by far, they don't need to be in the ballpark of wardancers with their trait up.
    3)Sounds good.
    4)Sounds good, still a stupid expensive item for just that.
    5)Good
    6)Very good, maybe even 2 sets of wings.
    7)Agree
    8)Sounds cool, I already quite like this spell and a buff like that could be fun.
    9)Once again, beastmen only, or beastmen and others? Not necessarily opposed thoguh.

    Wood Elves:

    6)With the above buff desire, this makes some sense, but 60% magic resist is just meh. I assume the goal here is to make orion a hard counter to brettonian grails and allarielle DP blobs, but I can't say im a fan of the approach.

    I absolutely despise how Orion is complete trash without the OP cloak of Isha. The goal is to make Orion good on his own and make the cloak a non-auto pick item thats good only in certain matchups, or at least not as good in every matchup.

    Yes it would help vs Bret and HE magic attack blobs, but it also helps other factions that can struggle to kill him when below the threshold. It also helps prevent him getting instantly sniped by magic missile spam.
    Killing him below the threshold isnt really that hard, he's still a large, low armor target with fairly mediocre MD, and as sarmatians noted, bursting through that isn't that hard. 44% damage resist makes him more resilient, but hardly invulnerable, especially given that every sort of damage is dishing out some hurt to him.
    It makes him almost invulnerable if you don't have burst damage, or lots of mobility, which is often the case in the late game. These changes make him stronger throughout the game, and his mobility would make him harder to burst down early on, and heavy magic resist stops a specific kind of burst damage, while allowing late game armies to grind him down if caught, or if he's forced to engage, for attacking rules or whatever.

    Basically my wish is to make him stronger if used and microed very well, and weaker/less forgiving if he's used badly.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,290Registered Users
    edited October 30
    nonentity said:

    Also Wardancers need a rework as elite infantry which WE currently lack. Make them similar to Sister of Slaughter and give them all their dance abilities.

    problem with that is that then WE would have nothing in the mid range, which is usually more useful meta-wise. In theory yeah i'd like to see them be elite but what's going to fill the hole they leave behind?
    nonentity said:


    Everything else seems good, but if you are going to buff unicorns (which I think is a good idea) -- apply it to Bretonnia as well, even tho its the default choice for the Fay.

    Silvaron already has great stats, so no buffs for fay, but yeah it should apply to other bret unicorns.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    Loupi_ said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    I think a lot of that is reasonable, some of it I don't agree with, some quite vehemently.
    Beastmen:
    1)Would the harpy buff be for all harpies or just beastmen harpies? Either way harpies are already a VERY strong choice, so such a buff would have to come with a 25 or 50 gold price hike imo.
    2)LD buff is fine, speed buff I don't agree with, bestigors are already the fastest heavy infantry in the game by far, they don't need to be in the ballpark of wardancers with their trait up.
    3)Sounds good.
    4)Sounds good, still a stupid expensive item for just that.
    5)Good
    6)Very good, maybe even 2 sets of wings.
    7)Agree
    8)Sounds cool, I already quite like this spell and a buff like that could be fun.
    9)Once again, beastmen only, or beastmen and others? Not necessarily opposed thoguh.

    Wood Elves:

    6)With the above buff desire, this makes some sense, but 60% magic resist is just meh. I assume the goal here is to make orion a hard counter to brettonian grails and allarielle DP blobs, but I can't say im a fan of the approach.

    I absolutely despise how Orion is complete trash without the OP cloak of Isha. The goal is to make Orion good on his own and make the cloak a non-auto pick item thats good only in certain matchups, or at least not as good in every matchup.

    Yes it would help vs Bret and HE magic attack blobs, but it also helps other factions that can struggle to kill him when below the threshold. It also helps prevent him getting instantly sniped by magic missile spam.
    Killing him below the threshold isnt really that hard, he's still a large, low armor target with fairly mediocre MD, and as sarmatians noted, bursting through that isn't that hard. 44% damage resist makes him more resilient, but hardly invulnerable, especially given that every sort of damage is dishing out some hurt to him.
    Yea I agree, I don't think Orion needs any changes. Wood Elves as a faction have very few units that are tanky so it seems fitting that one of their iconic legendary lords can make up for this weakness somewhat. He is also a heap of fun to play with as is, I think he could just use a little bit more ammo (maybe start with +2ish) and better damage on Hawk's Talon and he will be decently competitive now that he has vanguard.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,290Registered Users
    OrkLads said:



    Yea I agree, I don't think Orion needs any changes. Wood Elves as a faction have very few units that are tanky so it seems fitting that one of their iconic legendary lords can make up for this weakness somewhat. He is also a heap of fun to play with as is, I think he could just use a little bit more ammo (maybe start with +2ish) and better damage on Hawk's Talon and he will be decently competitive now that he has vanguard.

    Tanky legendary lord is Durthu's job. Orions job should be run wild and free with wild riders! (and to play the hybrid "hunter" role from range and in melee). He should NOT be tanky in melee.
  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Posts: 215Registered Users
    also ROR wardancers with spears need a rework to be viable
    maybe remove their current active invisability skill, add more speed and give them a dance to +mass but -speed or something


  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,290Registered Users

    also ROR wardancers with spears need a rework to be viable
    maybe remove their current active invisability skill, add more speed and give them a dance to +mass but -speed or something


    I think they are a great unit if you are careful with them. Regular wardancers though could use another dance that increases melee defence.
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 441Registered Users
    Gotta agree with Sarmatian here, well said.

    For personal notes, removal of smoke bomb from WW RoR with such changes is an instant -150 gold change, may be even -200. Smoke bomb and discourage are 2 things that make them viable in current meta after they were unviable for so long. Remove it and they go into the realm of never used. If anything, I would just add 5 Bonus vs Infantry for free to all WW, because why not? Would help in some late game or doggo scenarious, as WW are barely okay in melee right now.

    Waystalker idea is nice though, something like I was advocating for a long time. And all his items and abilities besides Arrow of Kurnous are bad. But honestly WS is pretty solid in the meta right now(mostly thanks to the arrow of Kurnous), so dunno.

    And Orion either needs cloak to activate at 30-35% HP or a massive rework. He is centered around Cloak, and there are quite a few characters like that, centered around an item or ability, but I understand that some people want more creative freedom. But for me it's fire. What's not fine is that his ward save buffer HP zone is too small and too easy to overcome with a burst thanks to his pretty weak defensive stats.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users

    also ROR wardancers with spears need a rework to be viable
    maybe remove their current active invisability skill, add more speed and give them a dance to +mass but -speed or something


    That would totally destroy the unit, their main selling point has always been leorc shroud
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  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,290Registered Users
    edited October 31
    Zeblasky said:

    Gotta agree with Sarmatian here, well said.

    For personal notes, removal of smoke bomb from WW RoR with such changes is an instant -150 gold change, may be even -200. Smoke bomb and discourage are 2 things that make them viable in current meta after they were unviable for so long. Remove it and they go into the realm of never used. If anything, I would just add 5 Bonus vs Infantry for free to all WW, because why not? Would help in some late game or doggo scenarious, as WW are barely okay in melee right now.

    fair point, smokebomb is useful vs infantry, but vs cav the centre of mass basically has to be ontop of hawkeyes for smokebomb to affect them , its even harder to time right vs lance formation. Ill get rid of the smokebomb removal for them then.
    Zeblasky said:


    And Orion either needs cloak to activate at 30-35% HP or a massive rework. He is centered around Cloak, and there are quite a few characters like that, centered around an item or ability, but I understand that some people want more creative freedom. But for me it's fire. What's not fine is that his ward save buffer HP zone is too small and too easy to overcome with a burst thanks to his pretty weak defensive stats.

    Yeah I think he needs massive rework so that he's not just Lord of Cloaks. Mel Gibson needs his FREEEDOOOMM!
    Post edited by Loupi_ on
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 441Registered Users
    Loec tricksters need their invis + smoke bomb instead of a very rarely useful +MA -MD ability. Boom, instantly competitve and deadly, much less heavy cav charging right through them without a care in the world. Too strong? Well, that's still 1300 gold unit with paper armor and heavily dependent on cooldowns and good timing.

    And you know, there is one WE unit that I would certainly like to buff.

    Dryads: +2MA or +2MD.
    Why? Because, while they may seem quite strong on paper(Fear, ITP, good armor + phys resist, good WS, magic attacks), a LOT of things counter them well - armor or magic resist as well as AP, magical or fire attacks. Combo at least 2 of those things and Dryads melt. And even against targets that do not have all that they are still... Not too impressive. I think some testing would be nice to support this, but for now I would love for dryads to get a small buff to help them perform much better vs Chaff.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,290Registered Users
    Zeblasky said:

    Loec tricksters need their invis + smoke bomb instead of a very rarely useful +MA -MD ability. Boom, instantly competitve and deadly, much less heavy cav charging right through them without a care in the world. Too strong? Well, that's still 1300 gold unit with paper armor and heavily dependent on cooldowns and good timing.

    And you know, there is one WE unit that I would certainly like to buff.

    Dryads: +2MA or +2MD.
    Why? Because, while they may seem quite strong on paper(Fear, ITP, good armor + phys resist, good WS, magic attacks), a LOT of things counter them well - armor or magic resist as well as AP, magical or fire attacks. Combo at least 2 of those things and Dryads melt. And even against targets that do not have all that they are still... Not too impressive. I think some testing would be nice to support this, but for now I would love for dryads to get a small buff to help them perform much better vs Chaff.

    OK yeah smokebomb would be very good on them, certainly more useful than for hawkeyes, but don't you think it would be a bit too strong to have both hawkeyes and tricksters with smokebomb. Bringing both would be quite expensive so it might balance itself out.

    For dryads there are 2 ways you can go I think; either make them slightly better vs armour/midtier i.e. AP swap, or make them better vs chaff, in which case I think more MA would be more helpful than MD. Also a better charge bonus and speed could work too to help vs chaff.
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 441Registered Users
    Loupi_ said:


    OK yeah smokebomb would be very good on them, certainly more useful than for hawkeyes, but don't you think it would be a bit too strong to have both hawkeyes and tricksters with smokebomb. Bringing both would be quite expensive so it might balance itself out.

    For dryads there are 2 ways you can go I think; either make them slightly better vs armour/midtier i.e. AP swap, or make them better vs chaff, in which case I think more MA would be more helpful than MD. Also a better charge bonus and speed could work too to help vs chaff.

    WW RoR is defensive, loec Tricsters one would be more offensive oriented. And sure, you could have 2 smoke bombs plus a net, but it would be a pretty expensive and glassy setup. Open to debate though.


    And hah, I think dryads should be better vs low tier infantry, for 550 they don't perform all too well, especially considering their weaknesses. For mid and high tier infantry you have Wardancers, Wildwood rangers and a lot of diffferent sources of AP fire. So +2 MA and +4 CB seems perfect. At the same time their MD is so pitiful, but I'm not sure that buffing their MD is not too much of a general buff. MA+ CB buff seems much safer.

  • MrMecHMrMecH Posts: 2,099Registered Users
    BEASTMEN

    1. Harpies +5 speed

    - I think Harpies is already good and cost effective.

    2. Bestigor(+ROR): +3LD, +2 speed

    - Agree with speed buff to all Bestigor. LD would be great buff for Primal Fury too.

    3. Add feral manticore

    - I don't like its. Feral Manticore isn't in Beastmen army book or lore. Preyton would be more welcome.

    4. Khazrak: Dark mail, change activation condition to : active if enemy within 55m.

    - Dark Mail should be Map-Wide effect but it will active while enemy caster cast a spell. Similar to Cygor's Soul Eater ability.

    5. Malagor: +7 speed

    - I think 7 speed wouldn't help Malagor much. Give him new ability to stalk for a while, like Tretch, would be more useful.

    6. Gorebull: Give him wings to match his ability to fly (or fix his animations :wink: )

    - Flybull is lovely XD

    7. Traitor kin: fix so that it is more distinct from devolve i.e good vs single combatants and bad vs infantry.

    - Agree absolutely

    8. Mantle of ghorok: aoe on overcast with appropriate WoM adjustment

    - Mantle of Ghorok is fine but need a little cost reduce and less WoM

    9. Giant: +3 speed

    - Agree (by the way I know It can't help him)
    SHUT UP GIVE US GHORGON!!!!!

  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,229Registered Users
    Zeblasky said:

    Loec tricksters need their invis + smoke bomb instead of a very rarely useful +MA -MD ability. Boom, instantly competitve and deadly, much less heavy cav charging right through them without a care in the world. Too strong? Well, that's still 1300 gold unit with paper armor and heavily dependent on cooldowns and good timing.

    And you know, there is one WE unit that I would certainly like to buff.

    Dryads: +2MA or +2MD.
    Why? Because, while they may seem quite strong on paper(Fear, ITP, good armor + phys resist, good WS, magic attacks), a LOT of things counter them well - armor or magic resist as well as AP, magical or fire attacks. Combo at least 2 of those things and Dryads melt. And even against targets that do not have all that they are still... Not too impressive. I think some testing would be nice to support this, but for now I would love for dryads to get a small buff to help them perform much better vs Chaff.

    I think that would be too strong. Unit that can stop AND kill cavalry all in one.

    Dryads are also fine, I feel. They provide chaff killing potential at acceptable price level, and that is a very important role in Wood Elves roster.

    I like in general how most WE units are designed - they are strong in optimal conditions, but have obvious and plentiful counters, so it takes skill to get them to perform well
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