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The Tagmata "issue" that does not exist

EasternRoman5EasternRoman5 Posts: 6Registered Users
Hello,

I have been playing total war Rome 2 and Attila, every day, for almost a year. I am loving every second of it.
My favorite part of the game is the anticipation of unlocking the next tier of units and, of course, the moment of unlocking itself.
Unfortunately, even when playing more slowly and defensively, with focus on building libraries and economy, the technologies to unlock the top tier units just takes too long and I don't get to experience these elite troops in my campaigns. Or if I get there eventually, the late-game battles are not that intense or important anymore. (Rome 2 at least allows you to have a top tier unit as a general so that's something)

Anyway, as I was reading stuff about Attila, I noticed that back in 2015, many players had a problem with the Tagmata cavalry (Eastern Roman elite melee cavalry) unit being too overpowered. I was sincerely surprised and in my humble opinion, a powerful melee cavalry is always welcome, especially when it is supposed to be a late game medieval armoured elite cavalry. I mean it makes sense. And I always hate when even when using very powerful melee cavalry against other cavalry, the casualties are always way too high. So I was eager to try these guys in battle.

So I tried Tagmata (in the current 2019 state of the game) in custom battles against different same tier melee cavalry and I was disappointed. Nothing too special and their horse armor is missing too (why did they remove it? makes no sense). I then wondered how powerful could they have been back in 2015 so that the developers had to demote them to their current pitiful state.

I found a mod that reverts the stats of Tagmata back to their original values and adds the horse armor back. I don't like to play with mods but I just couldn't resist this one. They look amazing with their horse armor (but I noticed their armor values are quite low compared to other factions' similar cavalry) and they performed considerably better (I also noticed a bug when using the mod, which makes the corpses of fallen Tagmata cavalrymen float in the air).

However after many tests.... I never experienced the "overpowered" Tagmata everyone was talking about. High friendly casualties, low rate of kills and still died from spearmen like all cavalry.

As a conclusion, I feel that "nerfing" Tagmata was unjust. They should be buffed again, for two main reasons: 1)Firstly they are supposed to be hella strong cause they are late-game high-tier medieval cavalry from an empire shrunk yet mighty and rich.
It doesn't matter if someone will say that in real life they appeared way later, in this game you make the decisions and if you prosper more than the real life Romans, nothing stops you from having them earlier. They already require too much time anyways before they are available in GC, even when building Imperial Libraries in all of my starting ERE provinces. 2)Secondly, at the current state of the game (october 2019) they are sadly way too weak for a high tier Eastern Roman cavalry, at least in my opinion.

If someone read the whole rant, thank you for your time, I hope someone will share his opinion too and have a chat!

P.S.: I don't always agree with testing units in custom battles. First of all in custom battles you don't get factional bonuses that you have in Grand Campaign for example Macedon's cavalry have extra charge bonus in GC but not in custom battles. Celtic cav also gets extra melee attack in GC but not in custom battles. But in the case of Tagmata, factional bonuses don't really affect the result

Comments

  • CogreCogre Senior Member Posts: 2,169Registered Users
    I have discovered that more than once, complaining about something in the game they don't like. Making a big deal on it, but when I try it out I don't see the problem.

    I chock it up to their lack of ability in gameplay
    KRYTEN: I'm some kind of robot who's fighting this virus, and none of
    this exists, it's all in a fever, except for you guys, who really do
    exist, only you're not really here, you're really on some space ship in
    the future. Hell, if that's got to make sense I don't want to be
    sober!
  • EasternRoman5EasternRoman5 Posts: 6Registered Users
    edited November 2
    I have edited my post too many times that I have to ask directly cause I have the feeling I didn't quite catch your intentions.

    You don't see what problem exactly? And whose abilities are you talking about?

    Post edited by EasternRoman5 on
  • CogreCogre Senior Member Posts: 2,169Registered Users
    edited November 3
    I was talking about some "problems " that seem to be in games, like the one you took great pains to investigate.

    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
    KRYTEN: I'm some kind of robot who's fighting this virus, and none of
    this exists, it's all in a fever, except for you guys, who really do
    exist, only you're not really here, you're really on some space ship in
    the future. Hell, if that's got to make sense I don't want to be
    sober!
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,622Registered Users
    Launch state Tagmata were OP to the point you didn't need to bother with any other cavalry as the ERE.

    Sorry, that's fact.

  • EasternRoman5EasternRoman5 Posts: 6Registered Users
    So, after the nerfing, do you actually bother with any other cavalry? The point of upgrading is to get better units. And if someone wants to use other cavalry, what are the options?:

    1)Scout equites are a great flanking unit due to the high weapon damage but they don't stand a chance against melee cavalry. They are the only cavalry available during the early game.
    2)Equites Dalmatae are a melee cavalry that there is no reason to bother with since they are inferior to Equites promoti but they are just less costly. They are available from the same level barracks. (A good change would be to let them be recruitable from the cavalry corral along with scout equites for a more interesting early on army composition).
    3)Scholae Palatina are better than promoti but they get upgraded to Tagmata so you don't have the choice of choosing between the two
    4)Excubitores are a different kind of melee cavalry because they have a bonus versus infantry and not against cavalry (at least that is what the stats show)
    5)Shock cavalry: no matter how strong the available melee cavalry is, shock cav has its own uses and own place in the army composition for those who like them and who know how and when to use them. Unfortunately Clibanarii is the upgrade of Cataphractarii and Cataphractarii an upgrade of Contarii, so there is no choice to be made.

    So I don't see how a powerful melee cavalry is a bad thing. There are other "problems" if someone is concerned about unit diversity
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