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Slaneesh's Harvesters

OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users
This unit is undercosted currently and could use a +50. Completely crowds out normal Doomfire Warlocks at its current price point.

Which is surprising because they are a good unit that can debuff the armour of enemies they need to fight as well as harass from range with Doombolt, but when you can get rank 9 stats for 222(!) cheaper and an instant cast soul stealer + 2 word of pains on top they are just a no brainer pick. Tbh they could almost use +100 with their kit.
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Comments

  • hanenhanen Posts: 347Registered Users
    I don't agree. They are fine at 1400 gold.

    Normal ones could howoever get -50 gold.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    edited November 1
    No its not, normal warlocks could use a buff though.
  • alpaca2alpaca2 Posts: 20Registered Users
    Doomfire Warlocks have very low LD for their cost(1200cost 65LD),they need Frenzy or Fear to be balanced.
  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Posts: 301Registered Users
    Doomfire warlocks got a bit overnerfed time ago. I think the RoR is fine and the normal unit should get a minor cost decrease of -25 or -50 cost.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,082Registered Users
    alpaca2 said:

    Doomfire Warlocks have very low LD for their cost(1200cost 65LD),they need Frenzy or Fear to be balanced.

    And why they should have higher LD ? Discount for should be enough.
  • alpaca2alpaca2 Posts: 20Registered Users

    alpaca2 said:

    Doomfire Warlocks have very low LD for their cost(1200cost 65LD),they need Frenzy or Fear to be balanced.

    And why they should have higher LD ? Discount for should be enough.
    -50 cost is enough, I think give them Frenzy or Fear is another way to balance them.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users
    Fair comments, A good change would be +50 on the ROR and -50 on normal Doomfire Warlocks.
  • DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users
    Normal warlocks are just kind of butt. Far too expensive for what you get. RoR is fine.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    edited November 1
    both regular and RoR warlocks are fairly priced. The -222g discount is likely due to the fact that CA thought that the RoR doesn't get significantly more tankiness compared to default version and as such deserves a significant price reduction on rank 9 stats.
  • DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users
    Normal warlocks are pretty severely over-costed. They have infantry HP.

    They pay far too much for their bound spells, poison, and magical attacks. They're effectively a support unit with only 1 casting of a support spell. They pay for two (lesser! as if the spell needed a weaker version) doombolts, which might be the worst spell in the game, and can only use their soulblight a single time. Using their poison requires them to be in combat, where their low HP really, really shows and any kind of missile fire or magic melts them, again due to their insanely low HP per model.

  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,105Registered Users
    Regular doomfires as said above are a joke. They're basically a niche pick to make sure you have counters to other factions niche picks. In other words they're risky to take.

    RoR are definitely very good. However the problem with giving the RoR a cost increase in order to help the regular ones is that no amount of reasonable price increases to RoR will make me want to take regular doomfires instead. Your have to make the RoR something insane like +200 gold.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,055Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    Fair comments, A good change would be +50 on the ROR and -50 on normal Doomfire Warlocks.

    Would be fair actually.

    The nerfs on locks r abit overshooting
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  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,229Registered Users
    Can the demand to buff Warlock actually be substantiated?

    In what way do they underperform?
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,290Registered Users
    I'd rather see the regular warlocks doombolt get swapped for chill wind. It would help them a lot vs wood elves for example.

    Slaanesh's harvesters are a very good unit that doesn't need anything.
  • DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users

    Can the demand to buff Warlock actually be substantiated?

    In what way do they underperform?

    All of the ways.

    They cost the same as knights of the blazing sun, and yet

    they're garbarge. They have, almost, the same hp as chaos warriors per model. But less. They melt to EVERYTHING. They don't kill on charge, they don't survive in a melee, and their spells frankly suck.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    Delude said:

    Can the demand to buff Warlock actually be substantiated?

    In what way do they underperform?

    All of the ways.

    They cost the same as knights of the blazing sun, and yet

    they're garbarge. They have, almost, the same hp as chaos warriors per model. But less. They melt to EVERYTHING. They don't kill on charge, they don't survive in a melee, and their spells frankly suck.
    I don't find them nearly as bad as you say, though the RoR is certainly 'overtuned' in the sense that if you only want 1 Warlocks it will always be the RoR. I don't think the RoR needs nerfs but at the same time it's hard to call regular Warlocks bad in a world where you want 1x Warlocks in most armies.

    What if RoR got +50g, and regular -50g? Would that be a good balancing decision?

    Here are matchups where I think regular Warlocks can do well:

    - HE
    - Skaven
    - Beastmen
    - Greenskins
    - VC (only 1 unit for magical attacks but u don't necessarily want the RoR).
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    Fair comments, A good change would be +50 on the ROR and -50 on normal Doomfire Warlocks.

    No it wouldnt, a good change would be -50g on normal ones.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,697Registered Users
    I would agree DE don't need more gold tax right now, they were hit quite hard last patch with cost increases. I think on average my DE builds got 200 gold more expensive. Only NORSCA got it worse last patch.

    I agree the ror >> regular though but maybe stat changes could be rather used if the ror needs touching. I am not sure it does. It's strong no doubt but also quite easy to counter for almost all factions.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,229Registered Users
    edited November 2
    Delude said:

    Can the demand to buff Warlock actually be substantiated?

    In what way do they underperform?

    All of the ways.

    They cost the same as knights of the blazing sun, and yet

    they're garbarge. They have, almost, the same hp as chaos warriors per model. But less. They melt to EVERYTHING. They don't kill on charge, they don't survive in a melee, and their spells frankly suck.
    They have 40% physical resistance. They have splash attacks. They have vanguard. They have 92 speed. They have two bound spells with two charges each, they have magic AND poison attacks.

    I did a few quick test vs AI and if you use word of pain and doombolt, they can defeat Wild Riders and Reiksguard, or at least have a close fight (in tests Warlocks won decisively, but I'm assuming that in actual battles they will do worse due to wider lines meaning more damage taken on the charge). Also, from what I remembered from earlier tests I did with a friend, they win against those units more often than not if they use their abilities. Iirc, they haven't received any nerfs except a price increase, so I assume that still holds true.

    So, you have very versatile 92 speed cav, that can mess up backlines quickly, support the fights with poison and abilities, and generally do well with much heavier cavalry units due to their abilities.

    Just because we have CoK dominating cavalry department of Dark Elves, that's really no reason to buff quite strong units of cavalry.

  • DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users

    Delude said:

    Can the demand to buff Warlock actually be substantiated?

    In what way do they underperform?

    All of the ways.

    They cost the same as knights of the blazing sun, and yet

    they're garbarge. They have, almost, the same hp as chaos warriors per model. But less. They melt to EVERYTHING. They don't kill on charge, they don't survive in a melee, and their spells frankly suck.
    They have 40% physical resistance. They have splash attacks. They have vanguard. They have 92 speed. They have two bound spells with two charges each, they have magic AND poison attacks.

    I did a few quick test vs AI and if you use word of pain and doombolt, they can defeat Wild Riders and Reiksguard, or at least have a close fight (in tests Warlocks won decisively, but I'm assuming that in actual battles they will do worse due to wider lines meaning more damage taken on the charge). Also, from what I remembered from earlier tests I did with a friend, they win against those units more often than not if they use their abilities. Iirc, they haven't received any nerfs except a price increase, so I assume that still holds true.

    So, you have very versatile 92 speed cav, that can mess up backlines quickly, support the fights with poison and abilities, and generally do well with much heavier cavalry units due to their abilities.

    Just because we have CoK dominating cavalry department of Dark Elves, that's really no reason to buff quite strong units of cavalry.

    Normal warlocks don't have word of pain.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,229Registered Users
    Delude said:

    Delude said:

    Can the demand to buff Warlock actually be substantiated?

    In what way do they underperform?

    All of the ways.

    They cost the same as knights of the blazing sun, and yet

    they're garbarge. They have, almost, the same hp as chaos warriors per model. But less. They melt to EVERYTHING. They don't kill on charge, they don't survive in a melee, and their spells frankly suck.
    They have 40% physical resistance. They have splash attacks. They have vanguard. They have 92 speed. They have two bound spells with two charges each, they have magic AND poison attacks.

    I did a few quick test vs AI and if you use word of pain and doombolt, they can defeat Wild Riders and Reiksguard, or at least have a close fight (in tests Warlocks won decisively, but I'm assuming that in actual battles they will do worse due to wider lines meaning more damage taken on the charge). Also, from what I remembered from earlier tests I did with a friend, they win against those units more often than not if they use their abilities. Iirc, they haven't received any nerfs except a price increase, so I assume that still holds true.

    So, you have very versatile 92 speed cav, that can mess up backlines quickly, support the fights with poison and abilities, and generally do well with much heavier cavalry units due to their abilities.

    Just because we have CoK dominating cavalry department of Dark Elves, that's really no reason to buff quite strong units of cavalry.

    Normal warlocks don't have word of pain.
    Soulblight, sorry.
  • DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users

    Delude said:

    Delude said:

    Can the demand to buff Warlock actually be substantiated?

    In what way do they underperform?

    All of the ways.

    They cost the same as knights of the blazing sun, and yet

    they're garbarge. They have, almost, the same hp as chaos warriors per model. But less. They melt to EVERYTHING. They don't kill on charge, they don't survive in a melee, and their spells frankly suck.
    They have 40% physical resistance. They have splash attacks. They have vanguard. They have 92 speed. They have two bound spells with two charges each, they have magic AND poison attacks.

    I did a few quick test vs AI and if you use word of pain and doombolt, they can defeat Wild Riders and Reiksguard, or at least have a close fight (in tests Warlocks won decisively, but I'm assuming that in actual battles they will do worse due to wider lines meaning more damage taken on the charge). Also, from what I remembered from earlier tests I did with a friend, they win against those units more often than not if they use their abilities. Iirc, they haven't received any nerfs except a price increase, so I assume that still holds true.

    So, you have very versatile 92 speed cav, that can mess up backlines quickly, support the fights with poison and abilities, and generally do well with much heavier cavalry units due to their abilities.

    Just because we have CoK dominating cavalry department of Dark Elves, that's really no reason to buff quite strong units of cavalry.

    Normal warlocks don't have word of pain.
    Soulblight, sorry.
    It makes sense to me that soulblight would **** over reiksguard, the wild riders losing confuses the heck out of me, though. granted, I never take them vs WE because [ARROWS] or against Empire because KoTBS have MR and also because Warrior Priests auto-win cav engagements right now. Their fragility makes them really undesirable as once you've used Soulblight you basically have a dud unit.

    Reiksguard are probably an example of a unit where the normal version is better due to their spells. soulblight > Word of Pain when you have low AP values vs high armour.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,290Registered Users
    Delude said:

    Delude said:

    Delude said:

    Can the demand to buff Warlock actually be substantiated?

    In what way do they underperform?

    All of the ways.

    They cost the same as knights of the blazing sun, and yet

    they're garbarge. They have, almost, the same hp as chaos warriors per model. But less. They melt to EVERYTHING. They don't kill on charge, they don't survive in a melee, and their spells frankly suck.
    They have 40% physical resistance. They have splash attacks. They have vanguard. They have 92 speed. They have two bound spells with two charges each, they have magic AND poison attacks.

    I did a few quick test vs AI and if you use word of pain and doombolt, they can defeat Wild Riders and Reiksguard, or at least have a close fight (in tests Warlocks won decisively, but I'm assuming that in actual battles they will do worse due to wider lines meaning more damage taken on the charge). Also, from what I remembered from earlier tests I did with a friend, they win against those units more often than not if they use their abilities. Iirc, they haven't received any nerfs except a price increase, so I assume that still holds true.

    So, you have very versatile 92 speed cav, that can mess up backlines quickly, support the fights with poison and abilities, and generally do well with much heavier cavalry units due to their abilities.

    Just because we have CoK dominating cavalry department of Dark Elves, that's really no reason to buff quite strong units of cavalry.

    Normal warlocks don't have word of pain.
    Soulblight, sorry.
    It makes sense to me that soulblight would **** over reiksguard, the wild riders losing confuses the heck out of me, though. granted, I never take them vs WE because [ARROWS] or against Empire because KoTBS have MR and also because Warrior Priests auto-win cav engagements right now. Their fragility makes them really undesirable as once you've used Soulblight you basically have a dud unit.

    Reiksguard are probably an example of a unit where the normal version is better due to their spells. soulblight > Word of Pain when you have low AP values vs high armour.
    wild riders losing to warlocks is simple; magic attacks gets through their physical resist, soulblight reduces armour to nothing and reduces their damage, then poison further reduces their damage, then doombolt nukes the stationary wild riders. It's not even a close fight really if you use the spells correctly.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,055Registered Users
    They could use +4 def instead of cost reduction. Hsrvester can get a +$50 and still be the most popular delf ror
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  • fierbali111fierbali111 Posts: 18Registered Users
    doomfire warlocks are crazy sqush for their price point and i think a leadership buff to 68 or 70 would be a balanced decision as without spells their stat line is weak for the cost. at least doombolt was buffed so it actually does a bit of damage on blobbed targets now.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users
    edited November 3
    Overall it looks like regular Warlocks could use either a buff or cost decrease, while the RoR needs a cost increase if it wants to stay with its current statline.

    Doomfire Warlocks are slightly overcosted but still a strong unit when used correctly (as in using their bound spells to effectively maximise their combat effectiveness like @Loupi_ said above) but were nerfed consistently over a couple patches and now feel a bit too pricey.

    The RoR will still need a price bump imo, even with normal warlocks at 1150 the RoR would be an auto-include if you want a DF Warlock. Soul Stealer is an amazing spell and extremely versatile spell, as is Word of Pain.

    I can see the merit in a cost decrease or buff for the normal variant, but either way the RoR needs a nerf or cost increase. It is quite clearly undercosted currently.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,105Registered Users
    edited November 3
    Auto include RoR doesn't mean it needs a nerf. RoR units are meant to be used often. Royal altdorfs are an example. So are silver bullets. Sternsmen. If you're taking dragon ogres, summoners of rage.

    There will have to be a lot of needs to lots of RoR....
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    Overall it looks like regular Warlocks could use either a buff or cost decrease, while the RoR needs a cost increase if it wants to stay with its current statline.

    Doomfire Warlocks are slightly overcosted but still a strong unit when used correctly (as in using their bound spells to effectively maximise their combat effectiveness like @Loupi_ said above) but were nerfed consistently over a couple patches and now feel a bit too pricey.

    The RoR will still need a price bump imo, even with normal warlocks at 1150 the RoR would be an auto-include if you want a DF Warlock. Soul Stealer is an amazing spell and extremely versatile spell, as is Word of Pain.

    I can see the merit in a cost decrease or buff for the normal variant, but either way the RoR needs a nerf or cost increase. It is quite clearly undercosted currently.

    No it doesnt, your driving this agenda based on your view, why does it need it? they a squishy 1400g unit with a useful spells.

    Its not quite clearly undercosted you have not presented any reasoning why you think its undercosted rather than your bias against that unit, provide some points and comparisons at least so we can have a discussion.

    I fully disagree with you and think you're wrong on this unit, normal ones need a buff but ROR are fine.
  • DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users
    Literally nothing supports the RoR needing any kind of nerf, other than you insisting it does, OrkLads.

    It takes up one of your 3 RoRs, it costs 1400g, and you can only have one. There is literally nothing wrong with it. There is plenty of cost attached to the unit.

    Worse: nerfing them nerfs DE's anti-blob ability. Which is not a good idea for the faction, or the game.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users

    OrkLads said:

    Overall it looks like regular Warlocks could use either a buff or cost decrease, while the RoR needs a cost increase if it wants to stay with its current statline.

    Doomfire Warlocks are slightly overcosted but still a strong unit when used correctly (as in using their bound spells to effectively maximise their combat effectiveness like @Loupi_ said above) but were nerfed consistently over a couple patches and now feel a bit too pricey.

    The RoR will still need a price bump imo, even with normal warlocks at 1150 the RoR would be an auto-include if you want a DF Warlock. Soul Stealer is an amazing spell and extremely versatile spell, as is Word of Pain.

    I can see the merit in a cost decrease or buff for the normal variant, but either way the RoR needs a nerf or cost increase. It is quite clearly undercosted currently.

    No it doesnt, your driving this agenda based on your view, why does it need it? they a squishy 1400g unit with a useful spells.

    Its not quite clearly undercosted you have not presented any reasoning why you think its undercosted rather than your bias against that unit, provide some points and comparisons at least so we can have a discussion.

    I fully disagree with you and think you're wrong on this unit, normal ones need a buff but ROR are fine.
    They get rank 9 stats for 222 less, + an extremely strong anti blob ability that heals them, + 2 Word of Pains which basically allows any 2 engagements in the battlefield be tilted strongly towards the Dark Elves favour.

    They have gotten a pass until now because normal DF Warlock's have been overpriced and so only very infrequently picked. Happy to let this lie for now, I think pickrates will show they need a nerf once DF Warlock's get a price decrease and they still crowd them out of the roster.
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