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Possible Rework Idea for the Lore of Vampires

GimblestumpGimblestump Posts: 32Registered Users
Though there have been changes to Lore of Vampires in the past, I believe the lore still suffers from overreliance on two spells: Invocation of Nehek and Raise Dead, although the former far more than the latter. Here are some changes that I feel would not only help Vampiric factions move away from just these two spells, but also move these factions towards a more sustainable, passive sort of healing that benefits their whole army instead of a few power pieces.
My inspiration stems from the Realm of Souls/Lore of Nehekara implemented with the Tomb Kings. I believe it is an excellent example on how to go about healing with Undead factions, focusing more on passive benefits instead of bursts of healing.
If you have any input, by all means please add it.

1. Remove Nehek's healing on characters.
As implied, remove Nehek's ability to heal characters (lords and heroes). Vampire characters (lords in particular) have many powerful abilities and mounts that give them plenty of freedom to choose their engagements. They also never route, so you rarely lose control over them. Removing Nehek’s healing on lords will give other factions, particularly ones with low missile pressure, more chances to capitalize on the mistakes of already slippery lords, as well as pushing the vampire player to be more careful with some of their most powerful tools.
In addition, it might give more reason to use lords like Isabella. Her healing chalice can still only heal characters, giving her a niche application that other lords do not have.
But to counteract this, the crumbling lock on Nehek should be removed. So characters with Nehek can still heal other units with Nehek, just not themselves or other characters.

2. Decrease Nehek's Healing
The current changes to Nehek have tried to discourage blobbing by limiting it to four units max. Despite the changes, the current healing works more like a high ward save, healing back a hearty amount of damage in a short span of time, even more so on an overcast. And since your power pieces tend to be close by one another, the four units max rule doesn’t change much.
I’d like to see Nehek’s overall healing greatly reduced, given a longer duration of healing, made an area of effect spell by default, given a larger area of effect on overcast, and possibly removing the 4 unit healing cap on Nehek. And if possible, give the spell more emphasis on bringing models back to life instead of overall unit health. This change would focus on keeping your entire army alive instead of a couple power units, helping your chaff do a better job of holding the line. This will be important when we come to the third reason…

3. Increase the effectiveness of Curse of Undeath
This is the big one. To incentivize more usage from other Lore of Vampire spells, increase the passive healing and benefits of Curse of Undeath. Most of the time, a Vampire army (mostly Counts) ends a battle with all their chaff is dead, while all their power pieces are still topped up on health.
This change would help both Vampire chaff and their power pieces survive, although the former to a greater degree. And as stated above, it would give more incentive to use other spells from the lore since technically every spell in Lore of Vampires is a healing spell.

I'm not certain on exact numerical values yet, but I feel these changes would be a step towards making the Vampires more of an unending undead horde and less of a goon squad. I’ll make an update if I get the chance to crunch the numbers, although I'm open to input. In the meantime, what are your opinions on these changes?

And please keep it civil and on topic. I don't want the thread derailing into a series of personal experiences.

TLDR: Rework Lore of Vampires by removing Invocation of Nehek’s healing on characters, decreasing the amount of healing received from Nehek while also making it area of effect by default, and increasing the effectiveness of the lore’s passive: Curse of Undeath. These changes are designed to benefit a Vampire player’s whole army instead of a few power units, as well as encourage more spell usage through more passive healing.

Comments

  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    edited November 3
    Woaw, your suggesting HUGE nerfs without giving smth in return;

    Yes, I do agree that Lore of Vampires has a need of a look to, but it has already been hit with a (rather blunt) correction with limiting healing to 4 entities max (which effectively makes it usless for frontline engagements, since the spell targets almost randomly).

    If, I´d suggest talking about buffs/ changes of value;
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    edited November 9
    Focus more on (1)vigour and (2)anti-crumbeling (NOT HEALING)

    Undead cannot tire in the traditional sense, the magic animating them can get weaker tho and therefore achieving a similar effect.

    I´d suggest

    (1) "Curse of Undeath"- passive shouldn t heal anymore, but stops crumbeling and replenishes vigour (like 5%)

    (2) "Gaze of Nagash"- damage should be upped or the cost lowered to 6/12 since the missles have bad tracking and spirit leech is just the more reliable damage source aswell as IoN and Vanhels/raise dead just beeing so much more useful. Or give it an additional effect, since more often then not not all missles hit.
    Damage is 600/1200 currently

    (3) "Curse of years", also needs smth different then it is now; less MA is nice and the ability reload is useful more often then not but the speed is useless in prolonged engagements and since your infantry is most of the time all but expendable....
    It is nicely mirrored by "curse of Anraheir", tho this spell lasts 7 seconds longer!

    I´d suggest to replace the ability recharge time by a vigour penalty of -9% and furthermore to make it a normal version an an overcast.
    Normal version is single target for 8-9 WoM with only -9% vigour and overcast for 17-18 WoM gives AoE and -18% vigour



    (4)"Invocation of Nehek" shouldn t apply only to 4 targets but simply not target lords and heroes anymore (since without them, your army is lost!)

    OR

    it should grant +18% vigour, if the 4 targets_max persists.


    Vanhels and Raise dead are good as they are.

    Post edited by TeNoSkill on
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Posts: 218Registered Users
    I've long argued nehek should not work on vampiric units. Give all vampiric units regen and the hunger.

    Nehek should work on all other units that are undead but not vampiric.

    This way you open up the support to line units and give key SEM the ability to heal but through tactical play not spell spam.

    This also aids the strengthening of undead line units without having to buff their stats which is a constant concern.

    Giving vigor buffs is a great idea.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,423Registered Users
    I like some of the concept work in the OP.

    I feel vampires could also use more or cheaper offensive magic since they lack ranged units. That would maybe allow them to play more strategies too.

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,622Registered Users
    edited November 4
    eumaies said:

    I like some of the concept work in the OP.

    I feel vampires could also use more or cheaper offensive magic since they lack ranged units. That would maybe allow them to play more strategies too.

    They could make Gaze of Nagash not suck. And if that means mounted lords and especially flying mounted lords get turned into skeets again then so effin' be it. Mounts and flying mounts need tons of nerfing anyway.

  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,097Registered Users
    Gaze of Nagash used to be super powerful, but then the nerfs.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users
    I think adding an additional effect to Gaze of Nagash could be quite nice. Maybe something that reduced vigour to represent "A deathly gaze falling upon you".
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,097Registered Users
    Honestly the main reason magic is lack luster is because they didn't actually design it to "Get Values" as part of their game design. Like so many spells are supposed to deal damage based on other statistics, Leadership, Melee Defense, Armor Values, "Toughness" (Total HP).

    Even the way that Healing spells and DoTs (Spirit leach, ect...) could have been implemented in a less "Granular" approach and do more flat out Healing and Killing models.

    Invocation of Nehek should just add models to units of Undead, crumbling and mortis effects should just pulse every #'of seconds and kill off a few models.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • GimblestumpGimblestump Posts: 32Registered Users
    TeNoSkill said:

    Woaw, your suggesting HUGE nerfs without giving smth in return;

    Yes, I do agree that Lore of Vampires has a need of a look to, but it has already been hit with a (rather blunt) correction with limiting healing to 4 entities max (which effectively makes it usless for frontline engagements, since the spell targets almost randomly).

    If, I´d suggest talking about buffs/ changes of value;

    TeNoSkill said:

    Woaw, your suggesting HUGE nerfs without giving smth in return;

    Yes, I do agree that Lore of Vampires has a need of a look to, but it has already been hit with a (rather blunt) correction with limiting healing to 4 entities max (which effectively makes it usless for frontline engagements, since the spell targets almost randomly).

    If, I´d suggest talking about buffs/ changes of value;

    The healing changes I've proposed place more focus on healing your entire army instead of just a few high value units. The proposed changes to invocation would be in an aoe by default and given a larger aoe if it's overcast. Combined with a greatly buffed Curse of Undeath, you'd have a lot more healing going around for your entire army from spell casts beyond just invocation.

    I like your change idea to "Gaze of Nagash." It does feel a bit overpriced at the moment, and lower cost spells would also benefit a more powerful healing passive.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 691Registered Users
    Invocation should take a cue from TT and work in a similar way that it did there in terms of amount of healing done on units varies depending on the unit.

    The weaker the unit the more healing happens.

    So maybe units should be put into tiers and heal based no these. The following is just and example and they healing numbers can be tweaked.

    Tier 1: Zombies
    Heals 2000 hp

    Tier 2: ghouls, skeletons, dire wolves, fell bats, corpse carts
    Heals 1200 hp

    Tier 3: grave guard, black knights, crypt horrors, necromancers, wightlords
    Heals 800 hp

    Tier 4: All ethereal units, black coach, Terrorgheist, mortis engine
    Heals 500 hp

    Tier 5: All vampiric units,
    restores vigour (som percentage)

    In addition, all vampiric units should get some form of passive healing (hunger + regen)
  • GimblestumpGimblestump Posts: 32Registered Users
    edited November 5

    Invocation should take a cue from TT and work in a similar way that it did there in terms of amount of healing done on units varies depending on the unit.

    The weaker the unit the more healing happens.

    So maybe units should be put into tiers and heal based no these. The following is just and example and they healing numbers can be tweaked.

    Tier 1: Zombies
    Heals 2000 hp

    Tier 2: ghouls, skeletons, dire wolves, fell bats, corpse carts
    Heals 1200 hp

    Tier 3: grave guard, black knights, crypt horrors, necromancers, wightlords
    Heals 800 hp

    Tier 4: All ethereal units, black coach, Terrorgheist, mortis engine
    Heals 500 hp

    Tier 5: All vampiric units,
    restores vigour (som percentage)

    In addition, all vampiric units should get some form of passive healing (hunger + regen)

    You have to consider Vampire Coast. They have the Lore of Vampires too, which is I why I haven't given any exact numbers for healing yet.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 691Registered Users




    Invocation should take a cue from TT and work in a similar way that it did there in terms of amount of healing done on units varies depending on the unit.

    The weaker the unit the more healing happens.

    So maybe units should be put into tiers and heal based no these. The following is just and example and they healing numbers can be tweaked.

    Tier 1: Zombies
    Heals 2000 hp

    Tier 2: ghouls, skeletons, dire wolves, fell bats, corpse carts
    Heals 1200 hp

    Tier 3: grave guard, black knights, crypt horrors, necromancers, wightlords
    Heals 800 hp

    Tier 4: All ethereal units, black coach, Terrorgheist, mortis engine
    Heals 500 hp

    Tier 5: All vampiric units,
    restores vigour (som percentage)

    In addition, all vampiric units should get some form of passive healing (hunger + regen)

    You have to consider Vampire Coast. They have the Lore of Vampires too, which is I why I haven't given any exact numbers for healing yet.
    Good point.

    I guess in this case Vcoast would have to have its own tiers of units with (potentially) different healing values. There is no reason why they need to be the same.

    After all, the raise dead spell is different.


    And the numbers I gave are just to illustrate the point, those are not the numbers that would be balanced.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    You could make it dependant on the price tag..
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 691Registered Users
    TeNoSkill said:

    You could make it dependant on the price tag..

    This might work if the function of cost that you choose, makes the result balanced. However, the function could not be linear since then zombies (100g) would gain 20 x the healing of TG, which will not be balanced.

    if it is not linear, it will be hard to understand for players.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users

    TeNoSkill said:

    You could make it dependant on the price tag..

    This might work if the function of cost that you choose, makes the result balanced. However, the function could not be linear since then zombies (100g) would gain 20 x the healing of TG, which will not be balanced.

    if it is not linear, it will be hard to understand for players.
    Well, zombies are quiet bad and if the time period is long enough...
  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 78Registered Users
    All your proposals except the Gaze significantly WEAKENS the VC
    You actually try to change the whole strategy of how the VC works as a whole and sugestivní that the VC infantry will do the most work
    Well it CANT and never WILL ! its whole stats distribution including super low LD means its whole role is to occupy opposing army while your elites turn the battle into your victory

    Please play more with the VC before you start to make such a suggestions which basically mean whole army rework
    The VC are fine sittin nicely in the middle which is fine by me
    Give us better doggos and mighty Krell!!
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 691Registered Users

    All your proposals except the Gaze significantly WEAKENS the VC
    You actually try to change the whole strategy of how the VC works as a whole and sugestivní that the VC infantry will do the most work
    Well it CANT and never WILL ! its whole stats distribution including super low LD means its whole role is to occupy opposing army while your elites turn the battle into your victory

    Please play more with the VC before you start to make such a suggestions which basically mean whole army rework
    The VC are fine sittin nicely in the middle which is fine by me
    Give us better doggos and mighty Krell!!

    But what if what we are proposing is a net buff?

    I mean, let's say currently nehek heals 600 hp on Blood knights. Well what can be done is lower this number a bit. But drastically increase the amount of healing that zombies/skeletons get. This would not weaken VC. What it would do is make casting nehek on chaff much better. This opening up more playstyles/strategies.

    What's wrong with that?

    Currently, there is absolutely no reason to cast nehek on zombies. But what if we make it worthwhile and balanced?
  • GimblestumpGimblestump Posts: 32Registered Users

    All your proposals except the Gaze significantly WEAKENS the VC
    You actually try to change the whole strategy of how the VC works as a whole and sugestivní that the VC infantry will do the most work
    Well it CANT and never WILL ! its whole stats distribution including super low LD means its whole role is to occupy opposing army while your elites turn the battle into your victory

    Please play more with the VC before you start to make such a suggestions which basically mean whole army rework
    The VC are fine sittin nicely in the middle which is fine by me
    Give us better doggos and mighty Krell!!

    As Wojmir says, these changes are designed to place more healing emphasis on chaff and encourage more careful usage of your power pieces. A more survivable front line means that your win conditions have more space to maneuver, both in the case of Vampire Counts and Vampire Coast. However, you will still need to be careful with your win conditions since they don't have as much of a healing safety net. You can still heal them, but they won't be healed as much as your chaff.
    And for the lore fans, a long lasting frontline also fits the lore dea of an endless undead horde grinding down the opposition through attrition.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users

    All your proposals except the Gaze significantly WEAKENS the VC
    You actually try to change the whole strategy of how the VC works as a whole and sugestivní that the VC infantry will do the most work
    Well it CANT and never WILL ! its whole stats distribution including super low LD means its whole role is to occupy opposing army while your elites turn the battle into your victory

    Please play more with the VC before you start to make such a suggestions which basically mean whole army rework
    The VC are fine sittin nicely in the middle which is fine by me
    Give us better doggos and mighty Krell!!

    All my proposals work on elites too!

    My proposals would shift the focus from "heavy healing" to "healing, vigour, anti- crumbeling".

  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 78Registered Users

    All your proposals except the Gaze significantly WEAKENS the VC
    You actually try to change the whole strategy of how the VC works as a whole and sugestivní that the VC infantry will do the most work
    Well it CANT and never WILL ! its whole stats distribution including super low LD means its whole role is to occupy opposing army while your elites turn the battle into your victory

    Please play more with the VC before you start to make such a suggestions which basically mean whole army rework
    The VC are fine sittin nicely in the middle which is fine by me
    Give us better doggos and mighty Krell!!

    But what if what we are proposing is a net buff?

    I mean, let's say currently nehek heals 600 hp on Blood knights. Well what can be done is lower this number a bit. But drastically increase the amount of healing that zombies/skeletons get. This would not weaken VC. What it would do is make casting nehek on chaff much better. This opening up more playstyles/strategies.

    What's wrong with that?

    Currently, there is absolutely no reason to cast nehek on zombies. But what if we make it worthwhile and balanced?
    Whats wrong with that??
    You cant be serious
    Why would i EVER heal my chaff which has such a horendous stats?!
    Whats the point of healing your chaff which cant dish out any damage at all
    Why would i invest my magic into frontline which in the end anyway crumbles because it always fights against superior units??
    Im not against nice fresh approach to VC like this
    But this would need a major rework of all your frontline units



  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 691Registered Users

    All your proposals except the Gaze significantly WEAKENS the VC
    You actually try to change the whole strategy of how the VC works as a whole and sugestivní that the VC infantry will do the most work
    Well it CANT and never WILL ! its whole stats distribution including super low LD means its whole role is to occupy opposing army while your elites turn the battle into your victory

    Please play more with the VC before you start to make such a suggestions which basically mean whole army rework
    The VC are fine sittin nicely in the middle which is fine by me
    Give us better doggos and mighty Krell!!

    But what if what we are proposing is a net buff?

    I mean, let's say currently nehek heals 600 hp on Blood knights. Well what can be done is lower this number a bit. But drastically increase the amount of healing that zombies/skeletons get. This would not weaken VC. What it would do is make casting nehek on chaff much better. This opening up more playstyles/strategies.

    What's wrong with that?

    Currently, there is absolutely no reason to cast nehek on zombies. But what if we make it worthwhile and balanced?
    Whats wrong with that??
    You cant be serious
    Why would i EVER heal my chaff which has such a horendous stats?!
    Whats the point of healing your chaff which cant dish out any damage at all
    Why would i invest my magic into frontline which in the end anyway crumbles because it always fights against superior units??
    Im not against nice fresh approach to VC like this
    But this would need a major rework of all your frontline units



    What if, hypothetically, an invocation on zombies heals the entire unit to the max (say 8000 hp?). Would this not be thematic, lore friendly and also a cool new tool for VC, without being OP?

    What if Grave guard healed for several thousand hp? Would you not want to use it on them?

  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 78Registered Users

    The only viable frontline infantry are grave guards and crypt ghouls on the flanks
    The rest is just unbreakable solid block of bodies which i would never ever invest my magic into because of their abyssmal stats.
    The main goal for VC is to decide the battle before the ranged tools of enemy overvalues you
    Now how would a fully healed zombs help me with that goal??
    Your elites do. And since VC has no elite infantry...
    One thing is having nice lore support the 2nd competetivness

  • GimblestumpGimblestump Posts: 32Registered Users


    The only viable frontline infantry are grave guards and crypt ghouls on the flanks
    The rest is just unbreakable solid block of bodies which i would never ever invest my magic into because of their abyssmal stats.
    The main goal for VC is to decide the battle before the ranged tools of enemy overvalues you
    Now how would a fully healed zombs help me with that goal??
    Your elites do. And since VC has no elite infantry...
    One thing is having nice lore support the 2nd competetivness

    Your chaff holds the enemy in place so that your elites can do damage. The longer the chaff lasts, the more damage elites can do.
    These changes aren't just for Vampire Counts. Their wet cousins also have Lore of Vampires, and I believe cumulative healing would be effective for them as well. With these changes, healing would be focused more on keeping your whole army alive instead of just your elites. Again, you can still heal your elites, but not as much as before with Invocation since:
    1. You would be getting an AOE heal by default with Invocation.
    2. You would be getting healing with every spellcast thanks to a buffed Curse of Undeath (the lore passive).
  • another505another505 Posts: 992Registered Users
    I think you need to see that healing your chaffs to hold longer to allow your elites to do dmg mean nothing when your elites the one being focused down and needs healing.

    Most factions can just ignore the zombie skeleton chaffs with their basic chaffs so they would expend all their focus on the elites
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,782Registered Users
    @Gimblestump

    Though there have been changes to Lore of Vampires in the past, I believe the lore still suffers from overreliance on two spells: Invocation of Nehek and Raise Dead, although the former far more than the latter. Here are some changes that I feel would not only help Vampiric factions move away from just these two spells, but also move these factions towards a more sustainable, passive sort of healing that benefits their whole army instead of a few power pieces.


    Tbh, most of your suggestions look like even further nerfs to Counts (and Coast to certain degree, though there situation is a bit different), which already don't perform well.

    On top of that, for some reason your suggestions also:
    - tosses stats, which won't delete reliance on these tools anyway
    - doesn't take into account that Counts need as cost-effecient and useful output from other magic spells as from IoN/RD to "replace" IoN/RD

    I'm against any further nerfs for Counts/Coast which affect:
    1. Single Player
    2. Race design and its main flavor
    At least until IoN/RD would be fixed for SP or would be ensured that it would get fixed at some point.

    IoN and RD are 2 main spells for Counts, because their army based around Necromancy and sustaining power with their magic Lore. They are magic oriented Race, which is based around and sustained with magic.
    Weak IoN/RD don't make sense, because with such weak tools they won't be able to sustain their armies.

    Remove Nehek's healing on characters.

    Why? Are you saying people struggle against Necromancer Lords/Heroes? Are you saying that most non-mounted Vampiric Characters present any serious danger? No? Then issue isn't with character healing. Character healing prevents Lord/Hero sniping vs Counts being too effecient (even though it already is). I would argue that some other Races should be (at least slightly) improved in this area, if needed (like GS, especially Goblins non mounted Skaven Lords etc).

    But to counteract this, the crumbling lock on Nehek should be removed. So characters with Nehek can still heal other units with Nehek, just not themselves or other characters.

    This doesn't counteract anything you've suggested.
    This thing should be removed in any case, since either people don't remember about it, either it spoils Counts gameplay and supports focusing Characters. Most opponents don't value it. Most Counts players won't like it being a thing.

    2. Decrease Nehek's Healing
    The current changes to Nehek have tried to discourage blobbing by limiting it to four units max. Despite the changes, the current healing works more like a high ward save, healing back a hearty amount of damage in a short span of time, even more so on an overcast. And since your power pieces tend to be close by one another, the four units max rule doesn’t change much.
    I’d like to see Nehek’s overall healing greatly reduced, given a longer duration of healing, made an area of effect spell by default, given a larger area of effect on overcast, and possibly removing the 4 unit healing cap on Nehek. And if possible, give the spell more emphasis on bringing models back to life instead of overall unit health. This change would focus on keeping your entire army alive instead of a couple power units, helping your chaff do a better job of holding the line. This will be important when we come to the third reason…

    What exactly does it fix? How exactly does it fix issue with "sustainability of chaff" with even less cost-effecient IoN?

    I’d like to see Nehek’s overall healing greatly reduced,

    Nerf to IoN means - less spells would be used. People go for needed and effecient spells. Garbage spells or situaitional one would still be garbage/situational and requirement for spell quality for Counts is higher, than for other Races (even compared to other Undead).
    given a longer duration of healing,

    Why and how does it connect to other suggestions? Chaff in most cases need more faster/stronger healing, than SEMs and other elite units. Not drastic difference and idea on its own isnt' bad, but within your suggestion I can't track idea behind it.
    made an area of effect spell by default
    given a larger area of effect on overcast,

    So its a buff to regular cast, but further nerf to overcast? What's a point to use overcast at all, if you could just blob without unit cap? If without removing 4 unit cap, why do you think people would heal chaff instead of elite units? If with removing cap, but nerfing regular IoN only - that may work, but again, less and slower healing per spell hurts chaff more and in both cases you would stuck between blobing and elite unit healing.
    And if possible, give the spell more emphasis on bringing models back to life instead of overall unit health

    It doesn't make any sense, apart from situations where any unit with high model count high model losses would receive less healing and would require lost models to regain power of IoN. Which sounds like double nerf anyway.
    In other cases, you would get 1 Model with 1 HP, which would make IoN almost useless for high model count units, even with buffs in other areas.
    Like we would have healing losses with each 1HP model being instantly killed (which affect whole value of damaged unit) or in case of them being fully healed before being added about additional healing losses from each cast, each time they won't be able to restore model. Both would be indirect buff to crumbling on top of that.


    3. Increase the effectiveness of Curse of Undeath
    This is the big one. To incentivize more usage from other Lore of Vampire spells, increase the passive healing and benefits of Curse of Undeath. Most of the time, a Vampire army (mostly Counts) ends a battle with all their chaff is dead, while all their power pieces are still topped up on health.
    This change would help both Vampire chaff and their power pieces survive, although the former to a greater degree. And as stated above, it would give more incentive to use other spells from the lore since technically every spell in Lore of Vampires is a healing spell.

    Issue is that Lore Attribute is binded to Casting not to WoM cost, which means to make it more useful with other spells even with 120/180HP/cast (unlike 60HP/cast atm) you need either to decrease cost for them, either you need to bind it to WoM spendings. Alternatively, of course, you could just increase WoM cost for IoN/RD and buff Attribute values, but idk if that helps in general, because:
    - Macabre is situationally good
    - Curse of Years is very situationally good
    - WoD is very situationally good, but also could be really punishing
    - Gaze of Nagash is still bad
    Which returns us to what we started from: you don't take into account output of other LoV Spells for Vampire Counts. They may be good for other Races, but not for Counts. Similar situation with Counts and Death/Shadows/Beasts (Beast at least could work with Lore attribute since binded to Lords with mixed Lores and CotU).
    On top of that, I'm not 100% sure that Counts need any further passive support in going wide (Top-Tier players are doing okaish with that still) or even being spammy (again, Top-Tier players example) at their maximum potential. Issue its not well fitting for lesser, than top-tier players, because its zeitnot situation with crumbling chaff and cycle charging micro managment and even there, this tactic still works only thanks to IoN/RD.

    Also, Counts aren't TK and such approach could make them basically stripped down TK without ranged and Realm of Souls and even heavier bind to their lore attribute with most effecient spells from it. Don't forget that Counts suffer not only from their inner imbalance, but also from their design: melee mostly (almost only) Race, with Rush orientation and magic support requirement with versatile choices of Lords/Heroes (to the point of overlapping) and lackluster Army Unit Roster (due to not having 1:1 melee replacement options for missing ranged options in each niche).

    ______________________________________________________
    My Proposal


    Global:
    (!!!) No "disabled: if LD is broken" for any current Counts tools: Curse of the Undeath, IoN, Hunger, Master of the Dead
    ______________________

    Curse of the Undeath:
    (!!!) Binded to WoM investements 1 WoM = 15 HP.
    (!!!) Works after a cast, not when casting
    ______________________

    Invocation of Nehek:
    Global
    (!!!) 1000HP/Cast or duration around 20-21 seconds

    Single Target Cast
    (!!!) 4-5 WoM cost (4, if affected with penalties for healing Large)
    (!!!) 20 seconds cooldown, if cooldown would stay as is for AoE
    (?) -25-50% Healing for Large Targets
    (??) WoM Recharge Rate Debuff for own army for Healing Large Targets during duration of a spell

    AoE Cast
    (!!!) 8 units cap
    (!!!) 10 WoM Cost
    (!!!) -50% Healing for Large Targets
    (!!!) WoM Recharge Rate Debuff for own army for Healing each Large Targets during duration of a spell
    (!!!) 40m AoE
    (!!!) 40s cooldown for AoE aka current one with "+50% cooldown" red description, if single target IoN would get cooldown reduction

    Optional
    (???) Indeed, somehow there could be added slower healing (let's say we would double duration, but cut it HP output in half), but idk, if that would work without...
    (???) "Newly Dead" trait for Undead Chaff like Zombies/Skeletons/Wolves/Bats (and maybe Ghouls). +25-50% healing from IoN/Curse of the Undeath
    (???) "Vampiric" Trait - units have Hunger by default, but receive -25% healing compared to other units from IoN/Curse of the Undeath (75% for Infantry and 50-25% healing for Large)
    ______________________

    Raise Dead and other LoV summons:
    (!!!) WoM Recharge Rate Debuff for own army for each own summon presented on a battlefield
    (!!!) More cost-effecient summons compared to current one (even Zombies are meh after last change)
    (???) "Disabled if caster in the air" (until lands) requirement
    ______________________

    Vanhel's Danse Macabre:
    - Vigour buff for both versions
    ______________________

    Gaze of Nagash:
    Either:
    - cheaper casts for both
    - give some useful debuff and slightly cheaper casts for both
    - always O shape form to ensure that single entitites like Characters mounted on a horse won't suffer and buffed damage output vs Large
    - could be added direct damage with effect on contact that drains HP of any victim it manages to hit
    ______________________

    Curse of Years:
    - Add single target cast
    - Add damage effect for AoE with multiplier for more units in AoE
    ______________________

    Wind of Death:
    - less damage for both casts
    - cheaper WoM cost for regular one
    - faster Wind effect to minimize dodging or add some debuff effect (like speed debuff on contact)

    ______________________

    Vampire Coast "Lore of Vampires" exclusive treatment:
    +1 WoM Cost for each regular cast of each Lore of Vampires spells (potential exception IoN - 5-6 WoM and summons, which are in okayish spot)
    +2 WoM Cost for each overcasted version of each Lore of Vampires spells (potential exception IoN - 12-14 WoM and summons, which are in okayish spot)
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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