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The Black Coach

sandercohensandercohen Posts: 171Registered Users
The black coach is a real winner. It holds the title of having the lowest WS out of all the single entity chariots. In addition, it is the chariot with the lowest mass out of any other chariot. These two issues plague this unit as it forces you to babysit it as it can easily get stuck in even basic infantry and can get completely blocked to a standstill by light cavalry - who either weigh as much or even outweigh it significantly. Therefore, I propose to:

1. Double the mass from 450 to 900. For comparison, a Goblin Wolf Chariot has a mass of 680, a Mortis Engine has 1100 and a basic Tomb King chariot has 900.
2. Increase the weapon strength to 200 from 120.

Yes, yes, I know about the Evocations of Death, but the last stage is the only real powerful one and it takes like 90 seconds engaged in melee before it triggers, a considerable amount of time no matter if you are talking about MP or SP.

What do you think?

Comments

  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 381Registered Users
    The biggest thing with it is in being particularly fast, and I was told in the past that the design behind it is being especially weak early on and especially strong later on rather than a gradual power climb. It is also among few chariots that cause terror. Increasing mass I could see an argument for, but the weapon strength I feel would be a bit much.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    weapon strength on chariots can also be deceiving as it’s not fully related to how much damage they do on a charge for several reasons.

    Mass increase I approve of.
  • sandercohensandercohen Posts: 171Registered Users

    The biggest thing with it is in being particularly fast, and I was told in the past that the design behind it is being especially weak early on and especially strong later on rather than a gradual power climb. It is also among few chariots that cause terror. Increasing mass I could see an argument for, but the weapon strength I feel would be a bit much.

    The black coach isn't really any faster than other non-supportive / combat single-entity chariots. It's a lot slower than Arkhans and Settra's chariots - by about 8 or so . The part about it becoming more powerful later in the game due to the Evocations of Death is of course true, but again it takes a considerable amount of time before you reach that final stage. The WS buff still puts it far below most other single entity chariots, including non-lord ones.
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 381Registered Users

    The biggest thing with it is in being particularly fast, and I was told in the past that the design behind it is being especially weak early on and especially strong later on rather than a gradual power climb. It is also among few chariots that cause terror. Increasing mass I could see an argument for, but the weapon strength I feel would be a bit much.

    The black coach isn't really any faster than other non-supportive / combat single-entity chariots. It's a lot slower than Arkhans and Settra's chariots - by about 8 or so . The part about it becoming more powerful later in the game due to the Evocations of Death is of course true, but again it takes a considerable amount of time before you reach that final stage. The WS buff still puts it far below most other single entity chariots, including non-lord ones.
    Well, once it picks up the first evocation the thing is just shy of being impossible to catch with the acceleration bonus, and it's very rare for a black coach to show up and not reach max stacks of the evocation unless the person on the other end is handling it very effectively and exploiting your micro or positioning.

    For chariots their most important stats are charge bonus and weapon strength. It's true that the black coach is pretty severely lacking in the weapon strength department, but hitting a 108 charge bonus off of the first evocation is pretty crazy, and then with the second evocation your weapon strength hits 156. What this ends up meaning is that your weapon strength on charge will hit 264 then decrease over time, a doomwheel for reference is 270 with a 50 charge bonus putting it at 320 and decreasing over time, however note that this chariot is 350 more so giving them comparable weapon strength is a pretty crazy buff even considering that one of these shoots.

    I really don't like comparing units across rosters, especially when what you're comparing them to is something they won't be realistically fighting, but that's probably the best comparison here. You're paying for evocations where the initial chariot is worth far less than the initial price tag but the fully buffed and healed one is definitely worth a lot more than 1100. The problem is just getting it there. That's why I'm more supportive of a mass buff but less of weapon strength.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    edited November 4

    The biggest thing with it is in being particularly fast, and I was told in the past that the design behind it is being especially weak early on and especially strong later on rather than a gradual power climb. It is also among few chariots that cause terror. Increasing mass I could see an argument for, but the weapon strength I feel would be a bit much.

    The black coach isn't really any faster than other non-supportive / combat single-entity chariots. It's a lot slower than Arkhans and Settra's chariots - by about 8 or so . The part about it becoming more powerful later in the game due to the Evocations of Death is of course true, but again it takes a considerable amount of time before you reach that final stage. The WS buff still puts it far below most other single entity chariots, including non-lord ones.
    Well, once it picks up the first evocation the thing is just shy of being impossible to catch with the acceleration bonus, and it's very rare for a black coach to show up and not reach max stacks of the evocation unless the person on the other end is handling it very effectively and exploiting your micro or positioning.

    For chariots their most important stats are charge bonus and weapon strength. It's true that the black coach is pretty severely lacking in the weapon strength department, but hitting a 108 charge bonus off of the first evocation is pretty crazy, and then with the second evocation your weapon strength hits 156. What this ends up meaning is that your weapon strength on charge will hit 264 then decrease over time, a doomwheel for reference is 270 with a 50 charge bonus putting it at 320 and decreasing over time, however note that this chariot is 350 more so giving them comparable weapon strength is a pretty crazy buff even considering that one of these shoots.

    I really don't like comparing units across rosters, especially when what you're comparing them to is something they won't be realistically fighting, but that's probably the best comparison here. You're paying for evocations where the initial chariot is worth far less than the initial price tag but the fully buffed and healed one is definitely worth a lot more than 1100. The problem is just getting it there. That's why I'm more supportive of a mass buff but less of weapon strength.
    also don't forget that there's double/triple attack animations going on for most chariots. Take Noble chariots, they have something like ~300 WS from memory, yet charge them frontally into an Emp Swordsmen they will do ~700 damage while from the side they can even do ~1200. According to how CB and attack intervals work classically, this should be impossible, but in reality, horses and the charioteers often also perform attack animations with variable MA and WS, so in the case of chariots one should look at ingame performance and not at stats only.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,097Registered Users

    For chariots their most important stats are charge bonus and weapon strength.

    So just to be stingy... and I know you know your stuff Aerocrastic... but wouldn't the most important stats on chariots be all the hidden ones that deal with impact hits. I remember when the Mammoth was finally reverted back into a "chariot" monster it involved a lot of unit characteristics that we rarely ever talk about.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,097Registered Users
    Yeah back in the Aye! Aye! patch they reverted Mammoths to being a "chariot" monster, the most important thing they changed was. "+4 collision attack max targets, 2 collision attack max targets cooldown"
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 323Registered Users
    Hm, I see them do quite well and they're a nightmare to deal with in the late game. They are very hard to use, but more mass with their buffs could make them run through infantry without opposition, which means basically only a very fast SEM can deal with it. I'd rather mellow this unit out a little bit by increasing its mass and stats but decreasing its speed and/or buffs a little.
  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 78Registered Users
    Most of you guys dont play with vamps so why do you bother...
    Well i do and let me tell you that the coach is very good in the skilled hands yes it requires a lot of micro cause it gets stuck but im OK with how it is now
    The VC has the biggest support tools dont forget that
    Why should it have a bigger mass i mean look at the model its a coach not a chariot!
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users

    Most of you guys dont play with vamps so why do you bother...
    Well i do and let me tell you that the coach is very good in the skilled hands yes it requires a lot of micro cause it gets stuck but im OK with how it is now
    The VC has the biggest support tools dont forget that
    Why should it have a bigger mass i mean look at the model its a coach not a chariot!

    nobody is saying give it +500 mass but like +100/200 why not.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    edited November 4

    Most of you guys dont play with vamps so why do you bother...

    Exactly lol, wth even got caught up with the noob trap picking coach. Ya sure back then u use then, right now its stupid to pick them when u only have 3 entity slot. Completely and utterly useless unit in mp, its more of a campaign carebear unit.

    Yayyy I got 3 single entity spot, lets not bring terrorgheist, lets not bring vargulf, lets not bring mortis, lets not bring zombie dragon. Bring coach!!!!

    Coach 450 mass vs vargulf and terrorgheist. Ya very useful unit, go micro urself to death just to proc that last stage of nimbus
    Green0 said:

    nobody is saying give it +500 mass but like +100/200 why not.

    Give it +1000 still gets 0 pick rate lol, why on earth any1 would bring it over vargulf. Only the best single entities get brought, coach over varg and terror, get real
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  • Lord_DistamorfinLord_Distamorfin Posts: 434Registered Users
    If CA can figure out a good way of giving units toggle fly, the Black Coach could get its fly ability from tabletop (along with a few other units). That could be interesting.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    edited November 4

    If CA can figure out a good way of giving units toggle fly, the Black Coach could get its fly ability from tabletop (along with a few other units). That could be interesting.

    I think that would make things worse, now they occupy bloody 1 single entity spot AND 1 flying spot.....

    That limit completely rekt vamps hard. Couldnt even bring bats without handicapping urself on limit. Just lord on dragon alone already took a big chunk of the limit. And without terrorghiest vamps just have 0 chance vs so many factions. Nightmares, zomb drag, im many cases r outright compulsory to bring.

    Unlessss ure saying per duration in combat, they gain flying after. Then maybe it could work.

    But really end of the day, is all that trouble microing the cycling charge even worth it. So much easier to just get a varg and get the job done. Of coz once they get stage 3 procced they can be somewhat useful, still tho having close to 0 melee capability other than cycling just dont really make sense to bring one like 99/100 times.
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  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 78Registered Users
    edited November 4
    yst said:

    Most of you guys dont play with vamps so why do you bother...

    Exactly lol, wth even got caught up with the noob trap picking coach. Ya sure back then u use then, right now its stupid to pick them when u only have 3 entity slot. Completely and utterly useless unit in mp, its more of a campaign carebear unit.

    Yayyy I got 3 single entity spot, lets not bring terrorgheist, lets not bring vargulf, lets not bring mortis, lets not bring zombie dragon. Bring coach!!!!

    Coach 450 mass vs vargulf and terrorgheist. Ya very useful unit, go micro urself to death just to proc that last stage of nimbus
    Green0 said:

    nobody is saying give it +500 mass but like +100/200 why not.

    Give it +1000 still gets 0 pick rate lol, why on earth any1 would bring it over vargulf. Only the best single entities get brought, coach over varg and terror, get real
    You are right
    I see only one instance when they are better pick than varghulf and thats again dorfs
    Better disengage option and better protection from slayers
    Still you need to use summons smartly to pave a way for them sometimes...

  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    edited November 4
    ^ Agreed, really just too much babysitting on 1 unit. U can spam click till u broke ur wrists or really just use something else. Just not worth the effort
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  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Considering that Black Coach now occupies SEM slot it needs buff. By bringing coaches you give away either air or Mortis to enemy right now. It is huge trade-off and quite significant nerf to any Coach centered strats.


    I see only one instance when they are better pick than varghulf and thats again dorfs

    Vargulfs are better vs dorfs due to magic attacks vs magic resists. Do not forget that Rune Lord can bring magic resist to 40% and this drop damage from coach. Plus Runes work now even vs charge speed, so no ping pong for you now. Add to this better mass and regen of Vargulfs.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,229Registered Users
    As someone who was recently on the receiving end of Black Coach soloing hundreds of infantry, I'd say it is fine.

  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 381Registered Users
    OdTengri said:

    For chariots their most important stats are charge bonus and weapon strength.

    So just to be stingy... and I know you know your stuff Aerocrastic... but wouldn't the most important stats on chariots be all the hidden ones that deal with impact hits. I remember when the Mammoth was finally reverted back into a "chariot" monster it involved a lot of unit characteristics that we rarely ever talk about.
    Nice catch, but I don't have the numbers for how many impact hits each chariot has so I'm trying to avoid talking about something I'm not certain of. Maybe the coach has less, and maybe the coach has more, but in the assumption that all chariots have a somewhat comparable number of impact attacks, WS and CB is what contributes most to their ability to actually kill models on contact. Given that the coach's driving cairn wraith also has an attack animation of its own, I would assume that it has splash attacks like hero chariots too so this becomes even more important
  • Lord_DistamorfinLord_Distamorfin Posts: 434Registered Users
    yst said:

    If CA can figure out a good way of giving units toggle fly, the Black Coach could get its fly ability from tabletop (along with a few other units). That could be interesting.

    I think that would make things worse, now they occupy bloody 1 single entity spot AND 1 flying spot.....

    That limit completely rekt vamps hard. Couldnt even bring bats without handicapping urself on limit. Just lord on dragon alone already took a big chunk of the limit. And without terrorghiest vamps just have 0 chance vs so many factions. Nightmares, zomb drag, im many cases r outright compulsory to bring.

    Unlessss ure saying per duration in combat, they gain flying after. Then maybe it could work.

    But really end of the day, is all that trouble microing the cycling charge even worth it. So much easier to just get a varg and get the job done. Of coz once they get stage 3 procced they can be somewhat useful, still tho having close to 0 melee capability other than cycling just dont really make sense to bring one like 99/100 times.
    I say it mainly from a gameplay/feature perspective than a balance perspective. I imagine a flying chariot or flying Malagor would upend existing balance and require a lot of changes.
    But assuming CA ever makes such a change, flying would be a fourth Evocation of Death.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users

    As someone who was recently on the receiving end of Black Coach soloing hundreds of infantry, I'd say it is fine.

    You forgetting price of Coach. To just get back its cost. You need to kill something like 200+ Spears in the case of HE for example. Unless you use it vs something really elite. And Coach are really bad vs cavalry or SEMs, it is not Noble chariots and cannot fight something other than infantry.
    It was fine while there was no SEM limit for them, but right now Coach needs rebalance buff to validate its place in SEM limit.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,229Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    As someone who was recently on the receiving end of Black Coach soloing hundreds of infantry, I'd say it is fine.

    You forgetting price of Coach. To just get back its cost. You need to kill something like 200+ Spears in the case of HE for example. Unless you use it vs something really elite. And Coach are really bad vs cavalry or SEMs, it is not Noble chariots and cannot fight something other than infantry.
    It was fine while there was no SEM limit for them, but right now Coach needs rebalance buff to validate its place in SEM limit.
    I'm not really sure units should be buffed just because a different unit is better value for money.

    Whether there is 1 or 3 or 10 SEM limit, reasons to buff (or nerf) a unit should stand on their own merit.

  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users


    I'm not really sure units should be buffed just because a different unit is better value for money.

    It is not about the different unit being valued for money. It is more about only 3 slots for important Air/AL/Antiblob tools. Do not forget that VC relies on SEMs for air and for blob counter.
    If you make unit occupy this slot and limit you on these fields it should have more value.


    Whether there is 1 or 3 or 10 SEM limit, reasons to buff (or nerf) a unit should stand on their own merit.

    Units do not exist in vacuum.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,097Registered Users

    OdTengri said:

    For chariots their most important stats are charge bonus and weapon strength.

    So just to be stingy... and I know you know your stuff Aerocrastic... but wouldn't the most important stats on chariots be all the hidden ones that deal with impact hits. I remember when the Mammoth was finally reverted back into a "chariot" monster it involved a lot of unit characteristics that we rarely ever talk about.
    Nice catch, but I don't have the numbers for how many impact hits each chariot has so I'm trying to avoid talking about something I'm not certain of. Maybe the coach has less, and maybe the coach has more, but in the assumption that all chariots have a somewhat comparable number of impact attacks, WS and CB is what contributes most to their ability to actually kill models on contact. Given that the coach's driving cairn wraith also has an attack animation of its own, I would assume that it has splash attacks like hero chariots too so this becomes even more important
    I just know that Chariot's are weird and that the damage they do slamming in to units might not even have all that much to do with stats we can see. I agree with everything you had to say about CB and the other stats we can see but I just know trying to compare chariots might have a lot to do with mechanics that are largely specific to chariots and not frequently discussed.

    @CA_Duck sorry to bug you but is their anything we're missing about our understanding of chariots?
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,229Registered Users
    tank3487 said:


    I'm not really sure units should be buffed just because a different unit is better value for money.

    It is not about the different unit being valued for money. It is more about only 3 slots for important Air/AL/Antiblob tools. Do not forget that VC relies on SEMs for air and for blob counter.
    If you make unit occupy this slot and limit you on these fields it should have more value.


    Whether there is 1 or 3 or 10 SEM limit, reasons to buff (or nerf) a unit should stand on their own merit.

    Units do not exist in vacuum.
    I agree with the premise (units do not exist in a vacuum), but I disagree with the conclusion, because it relies on a notion that units should be balanced within a roster, rather than compared with all other units in the game. A single OP unit or lord that is dominating pick rates (ie. Noctilus when Coast first arrived) is encouraging buffs for other balanced units.

    Which is why I can not agree with buffs based on what you lose when you don't pick other units.

    In the Wood Elves roster, Sisters of the Thorn compete with two versions of Scouts, two versions of Glade Riders and Waywatchers for 360 firing cap. You don't see them that often, but they are a well balanced unit that has its niche and should not be buffed, imho.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited November 5


    Which is why I can not agree with buffs based on what you lose when you don't pick other units.

    Problem are that limit are just 3 units. It is quite huge pressure. And mostly not about units of being OP or not OP, but that you sacrifice existing counters in the quite smal roster. It is huge additional price that was added in last patch for bringing Coach in game.
  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 78Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Considering that Black Coach now occupies SEM slot it needs buff. By bringing coaches you give away either air or Mortis to enemy right now. It is huge trade-off and quite significant nerf to any Coach centered strats.


    I see only one instance when they are better pick than varghulf and thats again dorfs

    Vargulfs are better vs dorfs due to magic attacks vs magic resists. Do not forget that Rune Lord can bring magic resist to 40% and this drop damage from coach. Plus Runes work now even vs charge speed, so no ping pong for you now. Add to this better mass and regen of Vargulfs.
    I disagree. actually quite a lot
    Varghulfs simply melt when focus fired
    The coach has armor speed and LD to make it out much unharmed when being slowed etc
    Their magic attack is only a slight problem for them cause once pumped up they return their value super fast
    Even with such a low mass its still a chariot hence very good antidorf tool
    About the SEM cap -Some SEM from VC have only one specific matchup i can live with that


  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,782Registered Users
    Either:
    - caps should be fixed and 2 unit cap and/or 3 unit SRE need to go. Which may be ideal, but I would prefer caps tbh to separate QB MP further from affecting other areas of a game
    - unit needs to be slightly buffed to fit new standards/restrictions. I would say in non-buffed state and first 2 Tiers, but it may come with some stat swaps as well to ensure it won't become to strong for top tier players with good battle control/micro.
    If to speak in general Counts played mostly via SEMs (apart from few cav/cav like units), since they are main cycle charge damage dealers. Rest is sort of cannon fodder, so restrictions for this group became quite ouchy.

    At the same time I think this SEM area brings more benifits to already strong players, which seem in fine/okayish spot anyway, so idk about big buffs, since it could get its value okayish as unit in vacuum and may be really strong when would get all Tiers.
    Idk about buffs to mass, since I don't undestand it clearly, so Devs would decide what's better there.
    And CB/Speed stats maybe should be looked at in case of buffs, if it would be too benefitial for top-tier players.

    Also Crypt Horrors still may get some buffs to cover AP area better.
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,097Registered Users
    Black Chariots shouldn't be Rare Single Entities they should be chariots, like every body else's chariots.

    Just like Slann are just wizards, just because they're big don't make them Rare Single Entities.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,097Registered Users

    OdTengri said:

    For chariots their most important stats are charge bonus and weapon strength.

    So just to be stingy... and I know you know your stuff Aerocrastic... but wouldn't the most important stats on chariots be all the hidden ones that deal with impact hits. I remember when the Mammoth was finally reverted back into a "chariot" monster it involved a lot of unit characteristics that we rarely ever talk about.
    Nice catch, but I don't have the numbers for how many impact hits each chariot has so I'm trying to avoid talking about something I'm not certain of. Maybe the coach has less, and maybe the coach has more, but in the assumption that all chariots have a somewhat comparable number of impact attacks, WS and CB is what contributes most to their ability to actually kill models on contact. Given that the coach's driving cairn wraith also has an attack animation of its own, I would assume that it has splash attacks like hero chariots too so this becomes even more important
    The only other thing I can say is that Mass and Impact hits interact, they had to lower the mammoths mass by a ton to rebalance it as a chariot monster.

    Increasing the Black Coach's Mass might not just make it pull through crowds easier but it might actually make them do more damage.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

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