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Shield balance

ParadoxendParadoxend Posts: 24Registered Users
edited November 4 in Balancing Discussions
probably this is part of the asymmetry of the game but i I noticed a different treatment
between the versions with shields of different factions so: (spear as example)
Empire: gain +75 +8md 35 parry
Lizard:+50 +6md 35 parry
Skaven:+50, +4md 35 parry
Wood elf: +75 +8md 55 parry -4 cb
Brettonia:+75 +8md +2 ma 55 parry
Beastmen:+50 +8md 35 parry
So i propose this
Empire:-25 cost -2 MD
Lizard:ok
Wood elf:ok
Brettonia:-2ma
Skaven:+2md
Beastmen:-2MD
In short bronze shield:+50 cost +6 MD
Silver shield:+75 +8 md

For the cavalry
Dark riders
Cold One knight
Cold One dread knight
Dragon princes
Have a +5% parry chance that They should lose in favor of the bretonia cavalry:
knight of the realm
Grail knight
«134

Comments

  • ystyst Posts: 6,056Registered Users
    Chaffs r pretty much perfectly balanced.

    Overperforming cav like drag prince needs some nerf and tweaks but other than that most r generally well balanced.
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  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 441Registered Users
    edited November 4
    Oh boy here we go again.

    Honestly, shield vs shieldless balance is not perfect. In some cases it's good, in others you would take shieldless version only versus VC, and even then may be not, because MD bonus that shields give can be too good to pass up. I would go for small MA buffs for certain shieldless versions, just to create a principle - Shield gives missile block and much better MD, while shieldless version is cheaper and sometimes has a bit better offensive capability.

    Eternal Guard without shields having + 4 CB is a great precedent btw and a good example of good shield vs no shield balance.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users
    I do like the idea of the pros/cons added from no-shield/Bronze Shield/ Silver shield all being consistent so that it is easier for new players to grasp exactly what they are paying for when they do/don't take a shield.

    The Bretonnia example is a weird one, because normal men-at-arms don't get more MA with shields, only the spear variant. That should be brought into line for consistency purposes either +2 ma for no shields or -2ma for shields on spears.

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users


    For the cavalry
    Dark riders
    Cold One knight
    Cold One dread knight
    Dragon princes
    Have a +5% parry chance that They should lose in favor of the bretonia cavalry:
    knight of the realm
    Grail knight

    why? None of those cavs are OP, in fact many are UP while both Grails and KotR are OP.
  • DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users
    This absolute madman proposed buffing Empire Spears and nerfing CODK in the same post. I'm actually impressed by the sheer looney toons levels.

    That said, the concept of standardized shield values is interesting to an extent. I don't know if it's a good idea in practice because +x MD will effect different units differently. Some units are 300, some are 800. Y'know?

    Also Elves have slightly higher shield block because they have less HP and cost more. (Also because they have better reflexes than puny mayflies.) If you want to nerf their block chance for the sake of homogenization (BOO, BORING!), you'd also have to increase their HP values.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,098Registered Users

    probably this is part of the asymmetry of the game but i I noticed a different treatment
    between the versions with shields of different factions so: (spear as example)
    Empire: gain +75 +8md 35 parry
    Lizard:+50 +6md 35 parry
    Skaven:+50, +4md 35 parry
    Wood elf: +75 +8md 55 parry -4 cb
    Brettonia:+75 +8md +2 ma 55 parry
    Beastmen:+50 +8md 35 parry

    Ummm.... You cant just take these stats in a vacuum and pretended that all those units have the same Health Pools and Leadership profiles.

    +8 MD is worth a lot more on a 100 LD unit than say a 25 LD unit, or a 10,000 HP unit vs. a 3,000 HP unit.

    Shields from my experience are worth less on cavalry units that usually get shot it the back a lot more than infantry.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    OdTengri said:

    probably this is part of the asymmetry of the game but i I noticed a different treatment
    between the versions with shields of different factions so: (spear as example)
    Empire: gain +75 +8md 35 parry
    Lizard:+50 +6md 35 parry
    Skaven:+50, +4md 35 parry
    Wood elf: +75 +8md 55 parry -4 cb
    Brettonia:+75 +8md +2 ma 55 parry
    Beastmen:+50 +8md 35 parry

    Ummm.... You cant just take these stats in a vacuum and pretended that all those units have the same Health Pools and Leadership profiles.

    +8 MD is worth a lot more on a 100 LD unit than say a 25 LD unit, or a 10,000 HP unit vs. a 3,000 HP unit.

    Shields from my experience are worth less on cavalry units that usually get shot it the back a lot more than infantry.
    this.

    also, the relative percentage by which a 1v1 vs another "typical infantry unit" improves is significant. E.g. Saurus vs Saurus (shields), +6 MD means something like +15% HP in melee vs an "average" melee infantry, a very good deal for only 50g.
  • ParadoxendParadoxend Posts: 24Registered Users
    Green0 said:


    For the cavalry
    Dark riders
    Cold One knight
    Cold One dread knight
    Dragon princes
    Have a +5% parry chance that They should lose in favor of the bretonia cavalry:
    knight of the realm
    Grail knight

    why? None of those cavs are OP, in fact many are UP while both Grails and KotR are OP.
    I think that if there is a faction that should have a bonus to parry this should be Bretonnia.
    if the listed units are up / op they should have separate nerf / buffs
    Delude said:

    This absolute madman proposed buffing Empire Spears and nerfing CODK in the same post. I'm actually impressed by the sheer looney toons levels.

    I didn't explain myself well,maybe with an example of Empire spearmen:
    If the Empire spearmen(all), as propose before, need a nerf of +25
    Spearmen(no shield):325
    Spearmen(shield):375 and -2md(+25 -25 and-2md)
    My propose Is to standardize the cost increase of shield variant
    OdTengri said:

    probably this is part of the asymmetry of the game but i I noticed a different treatment
    between the versions with shields of different factions so: (spear as example)
    Empire: gain +75 +8md 35 parry
    Lizard:+50 +6md 35 parry
    Skaven:+50, +4md 35 parry
    Wood elf: +75 +8md 55 parry -4 cb
    Brettonia:+75 +8md +2 ma 55 parry
    Beastmen:+50 +8md 35 parry

    Ummm.... You cant just take these stats in a vacuum and pretended that all those units have the same Health Pools and Leadership profiles.

    +8 MD is worth a lot more on a 100 LD unit than say a 25 LD unit, or a 10,000 HP unit vs. a 3,000 HP unit.

    Shields from my experience are worth less on cavalry units that usually get shot it the back a lot more than infantry.
    Good points
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users

    <
    I think that if there is a faction that should have a bonus to parry this should be Bretonnia.
    if the listed units are up / op they should have separate nerf / buffs

    there is no strong reason why that should be the case. I personally think Star Dragons should have 25 BvL and cost adjusted accordingly but that's... my opinion :)

    About the extra 5% block for Dragon Princes, the likely justification if you zoom in is that their shields are much larger than regular ones (was like this in TT also on their models), hence the 5% block. You can argue all day whether this makes a difference or not but the explanation is likely that.

    Anyway about your proposal, Grails currently are already underpriced by like 50-100g, Knights of Realm if you compare to something like Silver Helms you'll also see they have improved WS, AP and a free BvL. I'm against buffing the already very strong Bret cav further tbh.
  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Posts: 535Registered Users
    edited November 4
    We already had this discussion a few days ago. See tenth thread in balancing (saurus warriors).

    I've no idea why people obsess over dragon princes getting 35% block with their massive shields when wild riders are getting 55% with their little ones.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,056Registered Users
    edited November 4
    ^ lulz what rubbish. Pilgrims have gigantic shield and only bronze

    Should actually u know, look at chaos knight shield. If this lame of a reasoning holds, chaos knight should be given gold

    We all know drag prince r grossly underpriced and not even paying for that shield. If let untouched they even get free mass, theyve been overperforming far too long. Either they pay for that shield or cost increase
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  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Posts: 535Registered Users
    edited November 4
    yst said:

    ^ lulz what rubbish. Pilgrims have gigantic shield and only bronze

    Just like dragon princes.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,056Registered Users
    Dark riders - elf
    Cold One knight - elf
    Cold One dread knight - elf
    Dragon princes - elf
    Have a +5% parry chance

    And ppl wonder why :D
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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    yst said:

    ^ lulz what rubbish. Pilgrims have gigantic shield and only bronze

    Should actually u know, look at chaos knight shield. If this lame of a reasoning holds, chaos knight should be given gold

    We all know drag prince r grossly underpriced and not even paying for that shield. If let untouched they even get free mass, theyve been overperforming far too long. Either they pay for that shield or cost increase

    Chaos Knights can have extra 5% parry for free if this is such a pressing issue for you.
  • Meteor18Meteor18 Posts: 69Registered Users


    For the cavalry
    Dark riders
    Cold One knight
    Cold One dread knight
    Dragon princes
    Have a +5% parry chance that They should lose in favor of the bretonia cavalry:
    knight of the realm
    Grail knight

    This is such a weird statement. If you really have to buff Brettonian cavalry then go ahead, but you don't need to nerf other units across other factions to achieve that. It is like taking silver shield from goblins and giving it to Chaos Marauders because Chaos supposed to be the infantry faction, or reducing the armor of Corsairs and adding it to Rangers because Dwarves deserved to have more armor.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,056Registered Users
    What for, if drag prince r getting it for free. Then all others should have it, grails, demis, horned ones etc

    Then again we all know the solution to it. Pay or lose the xtra free block
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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    edited November 4
    yst said:

    What for, if drag prince r getting it for free. Then all others should have it, grails, demis, horned ones etc

    Then again we all know the solution to it. Pay or lose the xtra free block

    nope only CK which are the only ones I admit being slightly lackluster. All other cavs you mention are monsters and in need of nerfs if anything not buffs.

    Also if DPs need to start paying for shields, can we make Grails start paying for ItP or Perfect Vigor? Or Knights of Realm pay for the totally free BvL they get? Or Bloodknights and Demis pay for the too generous stats and abilities they get (or we are under the impression that for example Cause Fear should come for free for those 2 when a unit like Wild Riders most definitely pays for it?)

    Or is it another case of your double standards?
  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 547Registered Users
    edited November 4
    I find it kinda hilarious that people are bickering over 5% missile block. How much is it really worth in g? 10g? 5g?

    When some people are talking about the "free" missile block and fire resistance that DP have they make it sound like it's easily worth 500 g, absolutely hilarious.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,056Registered Users
    edited November 4
    Oh no need those lousy ones lol

    Cold knights got
    - Ap
    - Anti large
    - FeaR

    Not the only one too lol u got boars, spear riders. Realm? Lol get in line
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  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 547Registered Users
    edited November 4
    Another thing that is kinda weird is that i see a lot of homogenization threads in the forums regarding shields but i rarely see any thread about mass, except the one about dragon prince mass. If we gonna make everything the same, why don't we make all infantry the same mass while we are at it?

    Both saurians, orcs and dwarfs get alot of free mass if i'm not mistaken, give every infantry unit the same mass as them or make them pay for it.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,056Registered Users
    They ARE ALREADY THE SAME.

    Emp spear 100 mass
    Clanrat spear 100 mass
    Goblins, skeletons 90 mass
    Tomb skeleton 80 mass
    Ungor spear 100 mass
    Dread, eternal spear 100 mass
    Mara spear 100 mass

    Andddd helf spear 150 so.... im 100% on inf mass rebalance, helf simply get too many things for free
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  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 547Registered Users
    yst said:

    They ARE ALREADY THE SAME.

    Emp spear 100 mass
    Clanrat spear 100 mass
    Goblins, skeletons 90 mass
    Tomb skeleton 80 mass
    Ungor spear 100 mass
    Dread, eternal spear 100 mass
    Mara spear 100 mass

    Andddd helf spear 150 so.... im 100% on inf mass rebalance, helf simply get too many things for free

    Is there a reason why you deliberatly left out the units i named? What about saurus shields, orc boys and dwarf warriors?
  • ystyst Posts: 6,056Registered Users
    Cirdan said:

    Is there a reason why you deliberatly left out the units i named? What about saurus shields, orc boys and dwarf warriors?

    Er saurus is $800. Unless u want drag prince to have same mass as reavers then im all for it.
    Ork boys r 130 LESS MASS THAN ELF SPEAR. Dwf warriors r 150, no problem nerfing that.
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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    yst said:

    They ARE ALREADY THE SAME.

    Emp spear 100 mass
    Clanrat spear 100 mass
    Goblins, skeletons 90 mass
    Tomb skeleton 80 mass
    Ungor spear 100 mass
    Dread, eternal spear 100 mass
    Mara spear 100 mass

    Andddd helf spear 150 so.... im 100% on inf mass rebalance, helf simply get too many things for free

    can HE spears get 42 permanent MD also and not 38 only while costing almost double Emp spears? Ooooh wait that doesn't suit ur narrative.
  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 547Registered Users
    edited November 4
    yst said:

    Cirdan said:

    Is there a reason why you deliberatly left out the units i named? What about saurus shields, orc boys and dwarf warriors?

    Er saurus is $800. Unless u want drag prince to have same mass as reavers then im all for it.
    Ork boys r 130 LESS MASS THAN ELF SPEAR. Dwf warriors r 150, no problem nerfing that.
    Goblins and clanrats are 200-ish cheaper than spearmen, yet you include them in your list. So the fact that the price is higher shouldn't be a problem. Saurus pay for alot of extra stats in comparison to other units.

    What about B-orcs and TG:s? A lot of free mass right there.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,056Registered Users
    edited November 4
    Cirdan said:

    What about B-orcs and TG:s? A lot of free mass right there.

    U do know they r bigger right, unless u think they got the same hitbox as helf spearman lol
    Green0 said:

    can HE spears get 42 permanent MD also and not 38 only while costing almost double Emp spears? Ooooh wait that doesn't suit ur narrative.

    For those who failed math, it will never suits the narrative coz apparently elven logic dictates $500 = $750.
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  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 323Registered Users
    There's no need to standardize shields, or anything for that matter, completely between factions. Shields offer different benefits for different factions, e.g. rush vs. gunline, and stat points have different effects depending on the unit's original stats, e.g. +8 MD is huge for a 1500 gold unit but virtually never worth 75 gold on peasants.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    edited November 4
    yst said:

    Dark riders - elf
    Cold One knight - elf
    Cold One dread knight - elf
    Dragon princes - elf
    Have a +5% parry chance

    And ppl wonder why :D

    Silver helms - 30% Also elf....
    Swordmasters - Bronze shields - 20% - guess what Elf
    Sisters of slaughter - Bronze shields...wait for it.....20% - elf


    Going by your logic

    Chosen 60% - elf
    Knights Errant 35% - elf
  • ystyst Posts: 6,056Registered Users
    ^ I dont think u understand lol, theres NO STANDARDISATION of shield. They r getting xtra block for FREE. ALL cav r either bronze or silver. Those listed r the absolute anomaly.
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    edited November 4
    ^ i dont think you understand that Choesn and Errants are not elves while silver helms, SM and sisters are.
This discussion has been closed.