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Gotrek and Felix

DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,167Registered Users
edited November 7 in Balancing Discussions
The logic of making them is exactly how this game should have been made from the beginning. Now the hit box issues have to be addressed, apart that they are in a perfect spot. I don't main Empire so no bias. Now the rest of the game has some factions as well as some units in these factions and also some of its aspects like magic which are trash made, CA was hesitant fearing these would be OP if they made them as they were meant to be, these need to be made correctly and finally we get a VERY GOOD game.

P. S. What needs to be done about them is they both have to be present in the same army. So they get balanced this way.
Post edited by DandalusXVII on
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Comments

  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    edited November 7
    They have hitbox issues?

    These 2 r great heroes, pricey but they get the job done for whats paid. Pretty satisfied with heroes like these
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    edited November 7
    They a bit overtunned, hopefully get nerfed in due time but not by much, alternatively just make them not available in MP and have them SP and custom game only or at the very least take up a ROR slot and than they can remain bit overtunned.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,167Registered Users
    @Lotus_Moon they will be available in multiplayer but you have to take them both.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users

    They a bit overtunned, hopefully get nerfed in due time but not by much, alternatively just make them not available in MP and have them SP and custom game only or at the very least take up a ROR slot and than they can remain bit overtunned.

    Never understand this, last thing we want is less content for multiplayer. Maybe sisters of twilight and Ariel should be custom battle only too?

    Gotrek and Felix need at most minor stats tweaks. Nice to finally have some useful viable foot characters, breaks up the monotony of nothing but fast large and range at high level play.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    edited November 8
    OrkLads said:


    Gotrek and Felix need at most minor stats tweaks.

    Yeah mate, AP AL lord beating Queek Headtaker, anti-infantry duelist while costing less also. That's very nice "useful, viable lords" right there. Comment removed.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,624Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    They a bit overtunned, hopefully get nerfed in due time but not by much, alternatively just make them not available in MP and have them SP and custom game only or at the very least take up a ROR slot and than they can remain bit overtunned.

    Never understand this, last thing we want is less content for multiplayer. Maybe sisters of twilight and Ariel should be custom battle only too?

    Gotrek and Felix need at most minor stats tweaks. Nice to finally have some useful viable foot characters, breaks up the monotony of nothing but fast large and range at high level play.
    The problem is that G&F aren't joining any Elgi armies. They'd be perfectly balanced if they would.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    They a bit overtunned, hopefully get nerfed in due time but not by much, alternatively just make them not available in MP and have them SP and custom game only or at the very least take up a ROR slot and than they can remain bit overtunned.

    Never understand this, last thing we want is less content for multiplayer. Maybe sisters of twilight and Ariel should be custom battle only too?

    Gotrek and Felix need at most minor stats tweaks. Nice to finally have some useful viable foot characters, breaks up the monotony of nothing but fast large and range at high level play.
    What is hard for you to understand? that Some stuff should be Single player only so it can be kept really strong? this is already the case with LZM spawning untis and special empire ROR's.

    If they want to make sisters of twilight broken when they come out or ariel than hell yeah they should be single player only, i see nothing wrong with that.

    What makes gotrek and felix a special case for me though is the fact that they need to be balanced across 3 factions, the only multi faction units currently are warhounds/giants and trees for avelorn but none of them are in 3 factions.


    I dont agree they need minor stat nerfs, its more their items and abilities that need nerfs in addition to their icon fix.

    I mean i'm not against them being in MP they just need serious toning down if thats the case.

  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,355Registered Users

    OrkLads said:

    They a bit overtunned, hopefully get nerfed in due time but not by much, alternatively just make them not available in MP and have them SP and custom game only or at the very least take up a ROR slot and than they can remain bit overtunned.

    Never understand this, last thing we want is less content for multiplayer. Maybe sisters of twilight and Ariel should be custom battle only too?

    Gotrek and Felix need at most minor stats tweaks. Nice to finally have some useful viable foot characters, breaks up the monotony of nothing but fast large and range at high level play.
    What is hard for you to understand? that Some stuff should be Single player only so it can be kept really strong? this is already the case with LZM spawning untis and special empire ROR's.

    If they want to make sisters of twilight broken when they come out or ariel than hell yeah they should be single player only, i see nothing wrong with that.

    What makes gotrek and felix a special case for me though is the fact that they need to be balanced across 3 factions, the only multi faction units currently are warhounds/giants and trees for avelorn but none of them are in 3 factions.


    I dont agree they need minor stat nerfs, its more their items and abilities that need nerfs in addition to their icon fix.

    I mean i'm not against them being in MP they just need serious toning down if thats the case.

    I agree with most of what's being said here, but will note that the giant isn't in 3 factions, but 4, its also still struggling to find competitive footing though, so im not sure it's a good one example either way.
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    I had a look at gotrek and seems his base stats need +100g and i stick by the idea of making gotrek and felix count as a ROR unit.

    It makes sense lore wise and it would make sense balance wise for them to be under the ROR limit, this can be added to albion heroes in the future also with the troothslayer and dark emisary who would count as ROR heroes for various factions.
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Posts: 489Registered Users
    edited November 8
    A foot melee only character that people think needs nerfs? Never thought I would see the day.
    Personally I think there is a chance that a lot of other similar lords you could compare them to are under tuned which makes it so when you compare G&F to those weak melee only foot lords Gotrek and Felix feel strong in comparison.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users

    I had a look at gotrek and seems his base stats need +100g and i stick by the idea of making gotrek and felix count as a ROR unit.

    It is still 1k+ tied to foot hero without armor. Unless you do some sick forest blob strat it is hard to return such investment.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    I had a look at gotrek and seems his base stats need +100g and i stick by the idea of making gotrek and felix count as a ROR unit.

    It is still 1k+ tied to foot hero without armor. Unless you do some sick forest blob strat it is hard to return such investment.

    Yes but compare to other foot heroes his a bomb at that cost.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited November 8


    Yes but compare to other foot heroes his a bomb at that cost.

    In case of foot Lord. You take them quite often to make harder snipe of you Lord(basicaly it is +10 LD map wide buff) and most of them do have AOE support tools for you army plus wider army potential cause you cannot not to take Lord at all.
    All this things are not suit Gotrek cause he is hero. It is wrong to compare him to Lords at all.

    And in comprasion with things like mounted Nobles or Tomb Princes or Wight Kings or things like Gorebulls or Paladins. Gotrek do not feel too strong at all for such cost.

  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited November 8
    Green0 said:


    Yeah mate, AP AL lord beating Queek Headtaker, anti-infantry duelist while costing less also. That's very nice "useful, viable lords" right there. Comment removed.

    And how AP would help Queek in fight vs unarmored bearded guy? It is 150-200 gold wasted right there. Plus You forget AOE buffs that are tied to Queek. Including 10 LD buff that every Lord provide to army map wide.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,375Registered Users
    Finally have some useful and powerful foot heroes in the game and allegedly they need to be nerfed. Comparisons to neverpick foot melee lords seems silly, if anything those foot lords still need a power boost to make them more viable.

    This is a cross faction problem, when was the last time you saw any of these lords picked on foot in competitive play:

    - Greenskins: Grimgor Ironhide, Skarsnik
    - Empire: Boris Todbringer, Karl Franz
    - Chaos: Prince Sigvald the Magnificent
    - Dwarfs: Ungrim Ironfist
    - Skaven: Tretch Craventail, Queek Headtaker
    - High Elves: Tyrion
    - Dark Elves: Crone Hellebron, Lokhir Fellheart
    - Vampire Counts: Vlad Von Carstein (using Vlad as a placeholder to represent ALL Vampire lords. Vampires are supposed to be powerful supernatural beings in their own right, but they certainly don't feel that way when not on a dragon. Them being casters complicates the picture somewhat but still exceptionally rare to see a foot vampire lord taken)
    - Tomb Kings: High Queen Khalida
    - Norsca: Wulfrik the Wanderer
    - Vampire Coast: Aranessa Saltspite

    I've excluded all caster lords and ranged lords, however if I were to add them in there would be many more who are never seen on foot. High level play is still consistently dominated by melee lords on monstrous flying mounts, caster lords (sometimes on foot but 99/100 will be on a mount if they have one), masses of cavalry, lots of range, very token infantry force.

    Gortrek and Felix need minimal buffs at most. The fact they are pushing the 2-3+ year meta away from being able to deal with any and all problems with monsters, cav, and range is a GOOD THING for game diversity and pick diversity. Of course mounts and caster lords should remain viable, but they should not be objectively better choices than others in 99% of situations. Gotrek and Felix are finally heroes that are showing it can be done if they priced and powered appropriately without requiring changes to the game mechanics (i.e. CDvL, 100% knockback immunity etc).
  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    Both gotrek and felix shows that CA r capable of making viable foot heroes both on costs and performance. If theres anything bith could use some minor buffs with the rest of other foot lords without kounts getting buff gradually to viability.
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  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,229Registered Users
    I'm not really comfortable with AL character being the best duelist.

    But, if that is the standard, sure, go for it. Buff all other foot lords in similar fashion to Gotrek, Felix and Gor Rok.

    Give everyone active ability that gives cca. 50% ward save/physical resistance, and another ability that gives cca. 50MA and 50% more AP damage.
  • turrehundturrehund Posts: 188Registered Users
    Either they have to be nerfed or all other foot lords/heroes need some major buffs. I'd prefer a hefty price increase for their abilities while leaving the base price roughly the same.
  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 78Registered Users
    Agree with Lotus on this
    Price increase is the easiest to do
    Yes they are foot lords BUT they are within top tier factions and should be viewed as another powerful variable which has your opp prepare for
    Sure rout Felix and it goes well but good player will protect him with his little budd who hits like truck
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,423Registered Users
    edited November 8

    I'm not really comfortable with AL character being the best duelist.

    But, if that is the standard, sure, go for it. Buff all other foot lords in similar fashion to Gotrek, Felix and Gor Rok.

    Give everyone active ability that gives cca. 50% ward save/physical resistance, and another ability that gives cca. 50MA and 50% more AP damage.

    We've already had this discussion, but +30 AL is not some magical power that actually makes you trade especially well vs large monsters. He's a duelist first and foremost. We identified only one other melee foot lord with no meaningful utility buffs (sigvald, who is cheaper and also can carry regeneration) who looks weak next to Gotrek. All other melee foot character bring utility items, else yes they could be buffed.

    In any battlefield scenario, Gotrek is fine, nothing special.

    The culprit, as always in this game, is that healing is very strong if you don't find a way to counter it. Felix is the only character that really changes anything of note.

    Except for Brettonia who yes need some AP tool like Gotrek so good for them they have him now.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,423Registered Users
    ... and anyone who takes Gotrek's items is wasting money. it is in no way competitive to double down hundreds and hundreds of points on a single foot character.
  • another505another505 Posts: 992Registered Users

    Agree with Lotus on this
    Price increase is the easiest to do
    Yes they are foot lords BUT they are within top tier factions and should be viewed as another powerful variable which has your opp prepare for
    Sure rout Felix and it goes well but good player will protect him with his little budd who hits like truck

    Empire as a whole need a nerf
    They got multiple buffs with a dlc when they were very viable before

    Starting with warrior priest, demis in general, black lion and spearmen
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,229Registered Users
    edited November 8
    eumaies said:

    I'm not really comfortable with AL character being the best duelist.

    But, if that is the standard, sure, go for it. Buff all other foot lords in similar fashion to Gotrek, Felix and Gor Rok.

    Give everyone active ability that gives cca. 50% ward save/physical resistance, and another ability that gives cca. 50MA and 50% more AP damage.

    We've already had this discussion, but +30 AL is not some magical power that actually makes you trade especially well vs large monsters. He's a duelist first and foremost. We identified only one other melee foot lord with no meaningful utility buffs (sigvald, who is cheaper and also can carry regeneration) who looks weak next to Gotrek. All other melee foot character bring utility items, else yes they could be buffed.

    In any battlefield scenario, Gotrek is fine, nothing special.

    The culprit, as always in this game, is that healing is very strong if you don't find a way to counter it. Felix is the only character that really changes anything of note.

    Except for Brettonia who yes need some AP tool like Gotrek so good for them they have him now.
    We did. I wasn't convinced by your arguments.
    eumaies said:

    ... and anyone who takes Gotrek's items is wasting money. it is in no way competitive to double down hundreds and hundreds of points on a single foot character.

    I would disagree. Being able to dish out a huge amount of damage in short space of time, or to ignore a large amount of damage is even more important for a foot character who has trouble picking his engagements.

    My stance on Gotrek hadn't changed - he's overtuned in every way, but due to how monster animations work, he's still mostly useless against them. Instead he dominates foot characters or large units with non-abusive attack animations, thus pushing the game even more into charging monster meta.

    He doesn't cover a weakness, he just makes non abusive option less attractive. He won't do anything to a noble chariot, but will decisively defeat Tyrion on foot. Is that what we want? To make noble chariots (or stegadons or mammoths...) even better pick vs dwarfs and make pick like Tyrion on foot (or Sigvald or whatnot) even less used vs dwarfs? It just limits options and forces opponents to double down on hard counters.



  • mightygloinmightygloin Posts: 1,367Registered Users
    Felix is slightly overtuned for what he's supposed to be. It could be better if his healing affected only a single target. On the other hand, Gotrek is undertiered. Price and performance difference between these characters should've been way higher.
    Also them being seperate entities was the best way to do it, but still it could be more thematic and balanced if it wasn't possible to take one without the other.

    Secondly, just because other foot characters suck, doesn't mean these two should automatically suck too. If anything you need to buff the others, not nerf the almost viable ones. The long time meta is as clear as the sun for obvious reasons and it still barely includes foot characters.

    Lastly, multiplayer is not a seperate game that caters to few overly competitive individuals. So limiting units - especially such iconic units - to SP is one of the worst ideas for the game in my view.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,423Registered Users

    eumaies said:

    I'm not really comfortable with AL character being the best duelist.

    But, if that is the standard, sure, go for it. Buff all other foot lords in similar fashion to Gotrek, Felix and Gor Rok.

    Give everyone active ability that gives cca. 50% ward save/physical resistance, and another ability that gives cca. 50MA and 50% more AP damage.

    We've already had this discussion, but +30 AL is not some magical power that actually makes you trade especially well vs large monsters. He's a duelist first and foremost. We identified only one other melee foot lord with no meaningful utility buffs (sigvald, who is cheaper and also can carry regeneration) who looks weak next to Gotrek. All other melee foot character bring utility items, else yes they could be buffed.

    In any battlefield scenario, Gotrek is fine, nothing special.

    The culprit, as always in this game, is that healing is very strong if you don't find a way to counter it. Felix is the only character that really changes anything of note.

    Except for Brettonia who yes need some AP tool like Gotrek so good for them they have him now.
    We did. I wasn't convinced by your arguments.
    eumaies said:

    ... and anyone who takes Gotrek's items is wasting money. it is in no way competitive to double down hundreds and hundreds of points on a single foot character.

    I would disagree. Being able to dish out a huge amount of damage in short space of time, or to ignore a large amount of damage is even more important for a foot character who has trouble picking his engagements.

    My stance on Gotrek hadn't changed - he's overtuned in every way, but due to how monster animations work, he's still mostly useless against them. Instead he dominates foot characters or large units with non-abusive attack animations, thus pushing the game even more into charging monster meta.

    He doesn't cover a weakness, he just makes non abusive option less attractive. He won't do anything to a noble chariot, but will decisively defeat Tyrion on foot. Is that what we want? To make noble chariots (or stegadons or mammoths...) even better pick vs dwarfs and make pick like Tyrion on foot (or Sigvald or whatnot) even less used vs dwarfs? It just limits options and forces opponents to double down on hard counters.



    Gotrek loses badly to a unit of saurus warriors with shields. Is that what you mean by "large units"? Or do you mean that he loses more than half the time versus a unit of Kroxigors which cost less than him? Either way, outside of duels, he loses and does not recoup his cost.

    As for the items, it's the same principal as ungrim's useless items. Pouring more money after bad. Using a wrath and rune to allow some mega expensive melee lord to do 500 or 700 damage or whatever. It's not decisive and you just lost because you wasted 1500 points on a foot lord who doesn't do anything else for your army.

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I'm not really comfortable with AL character being the best duelist.

    But, if that is the standard, sure, go for it. Buff all other foot lords in similar fashion to Gotrek, Felix and Gor Rok.

    Give everyone active ability that gives cca. 50% ward save/physical resistance, and another ability that gives cca. 50MA and 50% more AP damage.

    We've already had this discussion, but +30 AL is not some magical power that actually makes you trade especially well vs large monsters. He's a duelist first and foremost. We identified only one other melee foot lord with no meaningful utility buffs (sigvald, who is cheaper and also can carry regeneration) who looks weak next to Gotrek. All other melee foot character bring utility items, else yes they could be buffed.

    In any battlefield scenario, Gotrek is fine, nothing special.

    The culprit, as always in this game, is that healing is very strong if you don't find a way to counter it. Felix is the only character that really changes anything of note.

    Except for Brettonia who yes need some AP tool like Gotrek so good for them they have him now.
    We did. I wasn't convinced by your arguments.
    eumaies said:

    ... and anyone who takes Gotrek's items is wasting money. it is in no way competitive to double down hundreds and hundreds of points on a single foot character.

    I would disagree. Being able to dish out a huge amount of damage in short space of time, or to ignore a large amount of damage is even more important for a foot character who has trouble picking his engagements.

    My stance on Gotrek hadn't changed - he's overtuned in every way, but due to how monster animations work, he's still mostly useless against them. Instead he dominates foot characters or large units with non-abusive attack animations, thus pushing the game even more into charging monster meta.

    He doesn't cover a weakness, he just makes non abusive option less attractive. He won't do anything to a noble chariot, but will decisively defeat Tyrion on foot. Is that what we want? To make noble chariots (or stegadons or mammoths...) even better pick vs dwarfs and make pick like Tyrion on foot (or Sigvald or whatnot) even less used vs dwarfs? It just limits options and forces opponents to double down on hard counters.



    Gotrek loses badly to a unit of saurus warriors with shields. Is that what you mean by "large units"? Or do you mean that he loses more than half the time versus a unit of Kroxigors which cost less than him? Either way, outside of duels, he loses and does not recoup his cost.

    As for the items, it's the same principal as ungrim's useless items. Pouring more money after bad. Using a wrath and rune to allow some mega expensive melee lord to do 500 or 700 damage or whatever. It's not decisive and you just lost because you wasted 1500 points on a foot lord who doesn't do anything else for your army.

    most footlords lose to a full unit of mid-tier infantry when surrounded and fighting alone.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,423Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I'm not really comfortable with AL character being the best duelist.

    But, if that is the standard, sure, go for it. Buff all other foot lords in similar fashion to Gotrek, Felix and Gor Rok.

    Give everyone active ability that gives cca. 50% ward save/physical resistance, and another ability that gives cca. 50MA and 50% more AP damage.

    We've already had this discussion, but +30 AL is not some magical power that actually makes you trade especially well vs large monsters. He's a duelist first and foremost. We identified only one other melee foot lord with no meaningful utility buffs (sigvald, who is cheaper and also can carry regeneration) who looks weak next to Gotrek. All other melee foot character bring utility items, else yes they could be buffed.

    In any battlefield scenario, Gotrek is fine, nothing special.

    The culprit, as always in this game, is that healing is very strong if you don't find a way to counter it. Felix is the only character that really changes anything of note.

    Except for Brettonia who yes need some AP tool like Gotrek so good for them they have him now.
    We did. I wasn't convinced by your arguments.
    eumaies said:

    ... and anyone who takes Gotrek's items is wasting money. it is in no way competitive to double down hundreds and hundreds of points on a single foot character.

    I would disagree. Being able to dish out a huge amount of damage in short space of time, or to ignore a large amount of damage is even more important for a foot character who has trouble picking his engagements.

    My stance on Gotrek hadn't changed - he's overtuned in every way, but due to how monster animations work, he's still mostly useless against them. Instead he dominates foot characters or large units with non-abusive attack animations, thus pushing the game even more into charging monster meta.

    He doesn't cover a weakness, he just makes non abusive option less attractive. He won't do anything to a noble chariot, but will decisively defeat Tyrion on foot. Is that what we want? To make noble chariots (or stegadons or mammoths...) even better pick vs dwarfs and make pick like Tyrion on foot (or Sigvald or whatnot) even less used vs dwarfs? It just limits options and forces opponents to double down on hard counters.



    Gotrek loses badly to a unit of saurus warriors with shields. Is that what you mean by "large units"? Or do you mean that he loses more than half the time versus a unit of Kroxigors which cost less than him? Either way, outside of duels, he loses and does not recoup his cost.

    As for the items, it's the same principal as ungrim's useless items. Pouring more money after bad. Using a wrath and rune to allow some mega expensive melee lord to do 500 or 700 damage or whatever. It's not decisive and you just lost because you wasted 1500 points on a foot lord who doesn't do anything else for your army.

    most footlords lose to a full unit of mid-tier infantry when surrounded and fighting alone.
    Yes and sarmatian was claiming he’s somehow different.

    He’s good at dueling. Good for him.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    edited November 8
    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I'm not really comfortable with AL character being the best duelist.

    But, if that is the standard, sure, go for it. Buff all other foot lords in similar fashion to Gotrek, Felix and Gor Rok.

    Give everyone active ability that gives cca. 50% ward save/physical resistance, and another ability that gives cca. 50MA and 50% more AP damage.

    We've already had this discussion, but +30 AL is not some magical power that actually makes you trade especially well vs large monsters. He's a duelist first and foremost. We identified only one other melee foot lord with no meaningful utility buffs (sigvald, who is cheaper and also can carry regeneration) who looks weak next to Gotrek. All other melee foot character bring utility items, else yes they could be buffed.

    In any battlefield scenario, Gotrek is fine, nothing special.

    The culprit, as always in this game, is that healing is very strong if you don't find a way to counter it. Felix is the only character that really changes anything of note.

    Except for Brettonia who yes need some AP tool like Gotrek so good for them they have him now.
    We did. I wasn't convinced by your arguments.
    eumaies said:

    ... and anyone who takes Gotrek's items is wasting money. it is in no way competitive to double down hundreds and hundreds of points on a single foot character.

    I would disagree. Being able to dish out a huge amount of damage in short space of time, or to ignore a large amount of damage is even more important for a foot character who has trouble picking his engagements.

    My stance on Gotrek hadn't changed - he's overtuned in every way, but due to how monster animations work, he's still mostly useless against them. Instead he dominates foot characters or large units with non-abusive attack animations, thus pushing the game even more into charging monster meta.

    He doesn't cover a weakness, he just makes non abusive option less attractive. He won't do anything to a noble chariot, but will decisively defeat Tyrion on foot. Is that what we want? To make noble chariots (or stegadons or mammoths...) even better pick vs dwarfs and make pick like Tyrion on foot (or Sigvald or whatnot) even less used vs dwarfs? It just limits options and forces opponents to double down on hard counters.



    Gotrek loses badly to a unit of saurus warriors with shields. Is that what you mean by "large units"? Or do you mean that he loses more than half the time versus a unit of Kroxigors which cost less than him? Either way, outside of duels, he loses and does not recoup his cost.

    As for the items, it's the same principal as ungrim's useless items. Pouring more money after bad. Using a wrath and rune to allow some mega expensive melee lord to do 500 or 700 damage or whatever. It's not decisive and you just lost because you wasted 1500 points on a foot lord who doesn't do anything else for your army.

    most footlords lose to a full unit of mid-tier infantry when surrounded and fighting alone.
    Yes and sarmatian was claiming he’s somehow different.

    He’s good at dueling. Good for him.
    you can have whatever stance you prefer about Gotrek, but if you find him balanced you also have to admit every other footlord in the game (or most of them) are underpriced by 400g or so if you compare their performance to Gotrek's.

    My preference for nerfing Gotrek and not buffing other footlords stems from the realization that a footlord like, say, Grimgor can't cost much less than 1250g and still be balanced.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,423Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I'm not really comfortable with AL character being the best duelist.

    But, if that is the standard, sure, go for it. Buff all other foot lords in similar fashion to Gotrek, Felix and Gor Rok.

    Give everyone active ability that gives cca. 50% ward save/physical resistance, and another ability that gives cca. 50MA and 50% more AP damage.

    We've already had this discussion, but +30 AL is not some magical power that actually makes you trade especially well vs large monsters. He's a duelist first and foremost. We identified only one other melee foot lord with no meaningful utility buffs (sigvald, who is cheaper and also can carry regeneration) who looks weak next to Gotrek. All other melee foot character bring utility items, else yes they could be buffed.

    In any battlefield scenario, Gotrek is fine, nothing special.

    The culprit, as always in this game, is that healing is very strong if you don't find a way to counter it. Felix is the only character that really changes anything of note.

    Except for Brettonia who yes need some AP tool like Gotrek so good for them they have him now.
    We did. I wasn't convinced by your arguments.
    eumaies said:

    ... and anyone who takes Gotrek's items is wasting money. it is in no way competitive to double down hundreds and hundreds of points on a single foot character.

    I would disagree. Being able to dish out a huge amount of damage in short space of time, or to ignore a large amount of damage is even more important for a foot character who has trouble picking his engagements.

    My stance on Gotrek hadn't changed - he's overtuned in every way, but due to how monster animations work, he's still mostly useless against them. Instead he dominates foot characters or large units with non-abusive attack animations, thus pushing the game even more into charging monster meta.

    He doesn't cover a weakness, he just makes non abusive option less attractive. He won't do anything to a noble chariot, but will decisively defeat Tyrion on foot. Is that what we want? To make noble chariots (or stegadons or mammoths...) even better pick vs dwarfs and make pick like Tyrion on foot (or Sigvald or whatnot) even less used vs dwarfs? It just limits options and forces opponents to double down on hard counters.



    Gotrek loses badly to a unit of saurus warriors with shields. Is that what you mean by "large units"? Or do you mean that he loses more than half the time versus a unit of Kroxigors which cost less than him? Either way, outside of duels, he loses and does not recoup his cost.

    As for the items, it's the same principal as ungrim's useless items. Pouring more money after bad. Using a wrath and rune to allow some mega expensive melee lord to do 500 or 700 damage or whatever. It's not decisive and you just lost because you wasted 1500 points on a foot lord who doesn't do anything else for your army.

    most footlords lose to a full unit of mid-tier infantry when surrounded and fighting alone.
    Yes and sarmatian was claiming he’s somehow different.

    He’s good at dueling. Good for him.
    you can have whatever stance you prefer about Gotrek, but if you find him balanced you also have to admit every other footlord in the game (or most of them) are underpriced by 400g or so if you compare their performance to Gotrek's.

    My preference for nerfing Gotrek and not buffing other footlords stems from the realization that a footlord like, say, Grimgor can't cost much less than 1250g and still be balanced.
    As I've said before, there are very few other melee footlords with no other utility.

    Grimgor is indeed weak compared to his other lord competition in the greenskin roster. However, just as a unit he does far more than Gotrek because he has the waaagh ability. That is called battlefield utility. Any foot lord with items that affect things at range, much less the whole battlefield, have a basic utility that a pure melee infantry character lacks.

    Grimgor is also useful for his stats and combat abilities of course. But his overall utility is completely different from Gotrek because he does something to help your army win aside from brawling.

    If there are any footlords (like Ungrim or Sigvald) that are pure melee foot characters, you are correct they do indeed suck and are not worth taking (except vs dwarfs of course). Pure melee foot characters need to be really good at the one things they do.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,423Registered Users
    Belegar is an example of an actually useful melee combat lord. He also has a very basic AOE buff you can pay for (not much utility), but fundamentally he's priced about right. He's very tanky has a big shield, plenty of hp, hit points, so long as you don't need AP. And he's priced quite low while also being a lord, and survivability has some value for a lord. He doesn't have the killing power of gotrek but for less money and with much higher armour he has survivability.

    That's about the benchmark. 1100 for gotrek who is great at offense, worse at defense, and not even a lord is also on par with that kind of 'good' melee foot lord class.
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