Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

How are Empire Knights and Reiksguard considered good despite worst stats for price?

ChaunChaun Junior MemberPosts: 63Registered Users
TLDR? They slow, they trade horribly at their cost, why don't you just bring a different unit?

Summary

The amount I see these picked amazes me, they have worst stats of all cav in their price range.
  • They have the lowest speed of non monsterous cav (66) which means they can't avoid most other cav and move at infantry speed when under any type of slow.
  • They have very low charge bonus for a non-ap shock cav.
  • Mediocre weapon strength
  • Terrible Melee attack/defense
These units are advertised as shock cav, but have the worst offensive stats of comparably priced shock cav. The only high stat they have is armor, but armor has diminishing returns after 100 (armor above 100 does not increase maximum possible roll, it only increases minimum possible roll), especially given the plethora of AP options that exist in the game.

Empire Knights

Comparision to ap cav in price range:
  • People call Orc Boar units horrible, but both variants (anti large and regular) have similar melee stats to empire knights despite having the huge bonus of ap damage. The only major advantage of armor is completely useless against boar units.
  • Because of this, Empire Knights (850) will trade poorly even against the non anti-large version of boar boys (650)
  • The same comparison exits when comparing empire knights to both versions of cold one riders, expect that cold ones trade same charge bonus for a massive increase to weapon strength.
https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_emp_cav_empire_knights%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_grn_cav_orc_boar_boy_big_uns%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_grn_cav_orc_boar_boyz%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh2_main_lzd_cav_cold_ones_1%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh2_main_lzd_cav_cold_one_spearmen_1%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043

Comparison to non-ap cav in price range:
  • They are absolutely outclassed by slightly more expensive Silver Helms and Knights of the Realm
  • They have similar stats to the 150 cheaper knights errant (not accounting for lance formation)
https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_emp_cav_empire_knights%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh2_main_hef_cav_silver_helms_0%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_brt_cav_knights_of_the_realm%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_dlc07_brt_cav_knights_errant_0%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_vmp_cav_black_knights_0%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043

These guys are definitely overpriced by 50-100 gold in terms of combat status, which is made worse by their horrible speed. People say that empire spearmen are too cheap, but this is definitely counteracted by units like empire knights that are worst-in-class for their price.

Reiksguard

Comparison to non-ap cav in price range:
  • Why do people even consider Reiksguard over Knights of the blazing sun? KOTBS are only 50 more gold and are better in every way except melee defense (-4) which is not very important on shock cav and armor (-20) which is not a huge deal when they already have 100. Extra speed (+5), magic resist (25), and charge bonus (+16), and melee attack (+6) means KOTBS have at least 100 gold of extra stats over Reiksguard.
  • Reiksguard are comparable to the 250 cheaper silver healm (shields) without martial prowess... 495 extra health and 8 weapons strength is nice, but def does not make up for martial prowess buff, speed, and 250 gold.
  • Knights of the realm are just a far better unit for 200 cheaper... This is why you always see demigryph spam vs bretonnia, as no other empire cav unit can even remotely trade with a bretonnian one.
  • Reiksguard are basically on par with black knights (lances) which are 100 gold less...
https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_emp_cav_reiksguard%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_dlc04_emp_cav_knights_blazing_sun_0%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh2_main_hef_cav_silver_helms_1%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_brt_cav_knights_of_the_realm%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_vmp_cav_black_knights_3%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043

Comparision to ap cav in price range:
  • Reiksguard trade better vs ap cav than empire knights due to their higher charge and damage, but still feel quite underwhelming when compared to KOTBS
https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_emp_cav_reiksguard%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh2_main_lzd_cav_cold_one_spearmen_1%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh_main_grn_cav_orc_boar_boy_big_uns%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043&units=f%3D0%26k%3Dwh2_main_def_cav_cold_one_knights_0%26r%3D0%26v%3D2078602271960950043

KOTBS perform shock cav role better in every-way for 50 gold. This unit feels like it needs either a cost reduction of 50-100 or to be reworked into a tanky melee cav unit.





Comments

  • another505another505 Posts: 992Registered Users
    Because for their cost, they have good armor and md. Empire player who wants them likes to bully low tier units or low ap units.

    Add on top that empire has strong range play. They can protect your firing line or tarpit well

  • ParadoxendParadoxend Posts: 24Registered Users
    edited November 8
    Both are fine
    Neither up nor op for me
    subjectively I prefer reiksguards with a bit more LD
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,423Registered Users
    because 110 armour ain't beanbag. Especially when you're getting pestered by spear units and archers now and then. Boar boys die, empire knights endure.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,355Registered Users
    Yeah, no...
    Empire knights can ping pong around in a backline not giving af about almost any non-AP AL. Empire knights can beat the snot out of cheaper cav and crush backlines on a budget. Reiksguard can, once again, crush cheaper non-AP cav. Both KOTR and Silver Helms get smashed by reiksguard in a straight up fight, and after that is done reiksguard can run shop on your backline. KOTBS are better if you have impeccable micro, are synergizing with plague of rust or need an ounce more speed, but if you need a high mass defensive cav, both reiks and knights are better.
    Regularly publish Total War: Warhammer 2 content on my YT channel

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPI93p-X2T4YKD18O16bhPw
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 691Registered Users
    I just wanted to point out that the difference of 90 armor vs 120 armor is quite substantial when it comes to reducing non-AP damage.

    90 armor reduced non-AP damage by about 67.5%. While 120 armor reduced it by about 86%.
    Thinking about it another way,

    instead of taking 32.5% damage, you take 14%. Which means non-AP damage is cut by more than half!

    In practice, since "non-AP" attacks have some AP component, the actual reduction is about 25- 30%. Which is still pretty big!
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 916Registered Users
    edited November 8
    Because empire knights are an 850 gold unit trucking around with 110 armor, solid CB, and good enough melee stats. Sure they arn't the best in sustained combat or the fastest but who cares? They are going to ping ponging around the backline taking comparatively little from all non-ap sources. Sure, most other cav are able to kill them in a grind easily, but its an 850 gold cav (which is pretty much cheaper than all of its counters) thats going to take 10 years for any other equivilent priced cav to kill. Meanwhile the other 4 you brought because they cost nothing are going to be destroying the enemy backline.

    For reiksguard, they are a very similar unit except they have the sustained combat stats to dumpster pretty much any lower tier non-ap cav. I mean its basically the same unit but better at everything, totally fine.

    Even the stat comparisons you listed, did you even ready them?

    Empire knights outstat orc boars in basically every stat (MA, MD, LD, Spd, CB). They lose on WS but typically for the role you are employing Emp knights don't require it. Vs bigguns they cost less, are still significantly better into non armored infanty, and are tankier.

    Vs coldones they have 9 extra models (which is quite meaningful from a total damage perspective), don't rampage, still have more armor and MD, higher CB (which remember, also gives MA). Sure sustained stats are lower but its not necessary when you're job is to cycle infantry.

    TLDR: a 110 armored cav that costs 10 cents with a decent CB is always useful.
  • ReymReym Posts: 477Registered Users
    edited November 9
    Empire knights are totally fine in the context of the Empire (see other people arguments above).

    Reiksguard are a bit trickier to judge. On its own the unit has no problem, however it has to rivalise with knights of the blazing suns who are more focused on offensive stats (which comes handy for a shock cav) and this magical resistance that prevents model bleeding from spirit leech types effect. Generally when someone want a cav at this price tier the reiksguard will just be skipped. Then if you want only to bully low tier infantry well you got the empire knights.

    Reiksguard isn't a bad unit, it just doesn't differentiate itself enough to compete with the 2 others.
    The only situation I can think of is that you are facing HE, you don't want empire knights or demis for X reason and prefer something a bit middle tier but you can't really get blazing suns cause of dragon princes fire resist so you end up taking reiksguards. That's the only exemple and yet I have to take away a lot of elements away.
    Post edited by Reym on
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • ChaunChaun Junior Member Posts: 63Registered Users

    I just wanted to point out that the difference of 90 armor vs 120 armor is quite substantial when it comes to reducing non-AP damage.

    90 armor reduced non-AP damage by about 67.5%. While 120 armor reduced it by about 86%.
    Thinking about it another way,

    instead of taking 32.5% damage, you take 14%. Which means non-AP damage is cut by more than half!

    In practice, since "non-AP" attacks have some AP component, the actual reduction is about 25- 30%. Which is still pretty big!

    Idk, It would be more useful to them if they were a unit that was designed to stay in a fight. Their extra armor cost them about 10% of the speed of other horse cav.

    120 armor vs attacker with 30% non-ap means about 25% of total damage blocked on average.
    90 armor vs attacker with 30% non-ap means about 20% of total damage blocked on average.

    That means 30 armor saves them from about 5% of incoming damage against an average ap unit... I just don't see how that is worth it given their low stat-line.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,355Registered Users
    Chaun said:

    I just wanted to point out that the difference of 90 armor vs 120 armor is quite substantial when it comes to reducing non-AP damage.

    90 armor reduced non-AP damage by about 67.5%. While 120 armor reduced it by about 86%.
    Thinking about it another way,

    instead of taking 32.5% damage, you take 14%. Which means non-AP damage is cut by more than half!

    In practice, since "non-AP" attacks have some AP component, the actual reduction is about 25- 30%. Which is still pretty big!

    Idk, It would be more useful to them if they were a unit that was designed to stay in a fight. Their extra armor cost them about 10% of the speed of other horse cav.

    120 armor vs attacker with 30% non-ap means about 25% of total damage blocked on average.
    90 armor vs attacker with 30% non-ap means about 20% of total damage blocked on average.

    That means 30 armor saves them from about 5% of incoming damage against an average ap unit... I just don't see how that is worth it given their low stat-line.
    Except their stat line isn't that low, and the point of armor is to bully non-AP enemies. Reiksguard can sit and tank even high end AL cav for far longer than they should thanks to their high armor. They can run amok while low end spears struggle to make a tangible impact on them. A cheap spear unit with something like 9 AP and 31 non-AP with BvsL involved is looking at 14 damage per hit vs reiksguard, as opposed to 19 vs a unit like silverhelms or brettonian knights. Needing 8 hits to kill a reiksguard model as opposed to 5-6 for other 45 model mid-tier cav due to their armor is a HUGE difference.
    Reym said:

    Empire knights are totally fine in the context of the Empire (see other people arguments above).

    Reiksguard are a bit trickier to judge. On its own the unit has no problem, however it has to rivalise with knights of the blazing suns who are more focused on offensive stats (which comes handy for a shock cav) and this magical resistance that prevents model bleeding from spirit leech types effect. Generally when someone want a cav at this price tier the reiksguard will just be skipped. Then if you want only to bully low tier infantry well you got the empire knights.

    Reiksguard isn't a bad unit, it just doesn't differentiate itself enough to compete with the 2 others.
    The only situation I can think of is that you are facing HE, you don't want empire knights or demis for X reason and prefer something a bit middle tier but you can't really get blazing suns cause of dragon princes fire resist so you end up taking reiksguards. That's the only exemple and yet I have to take away a lot of elements away.

    I think if you want to play a more defensive build, but still want your cav to have some punch, reiksguard can be a better choice than KOTBS. They save you some money for spells, abilities, infantry etc and have slightly better staying power than KOTBS. I do agree the contest between thetwo is less favorable to reiksguard than KOTBS though.
    Regularly publish Total War: Warhammer 2 content on my YT channel

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPI93p-X2T4YKD18O16bhPw
  • ChaunChaun Junior Member Posts: 63Registered Users
    Fair arguments, I guess I'll have to test empire knights vs non-ap chaff more. It might be I need to change up my playstyle with them more, I play with them like they have 76 speed even though they only have 66 which gets them caught in bad engagements.

    Do people have more success with empire knights/reiksguard as a reserve cav rather than a flanker?
  • another505another505 Posts: 992Registered Users
    edited November 9
    If you want better cavs play bretonnia ;)

    Currently empire is so overtuned for its theme, i want to see units nerfed before any buffs.

    Especially demi and warrior priest

    Regarding their role. It depends what im faced with but either as mobile hole plugger like monsters that can just push through your inf, i will send them in to hold it down , So allows my gunners to shoot. Or mass empire and demi halberd for the flank and then the backline.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    ARMOUR
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Posts: 535Registered Users
    edited November 9
    Empire cav other than demis trades horribly with other heavy cav for cost. Same is true of silver helms, for instance. As others have said, these units are mostly for bouncing around a defenceless backline.

    Still, I think you are basically right that 850 is expensive for a unit that can get shut down so easily. Knights Errant can do a similar job at a lower price, and KoTR will do that AND trade decently with cav or monsters for only a modest price increase. I doubt you'd see EK much if KE/KOTR were available to the Empire, but the performance differential is fair given the breadth of the Empire roster.
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Posts: 489Registered Users
    Also on diminishing returns of armor don't forget that armor above 100 helps buffer units for when they get tired.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,355Registered Users
    edited November 9

    Empire cav other than demis trades horribly with other heavy cav for cost. Same is true of silver helms, for instance. As others have said, these units are mostly for bouncing around a defenceless backline.

    Still, I think you are basically right that 850 is expensive for a unit that can get shut down so easily. Knights Errant can do a similar job at a lower price, and KoTR will do that AND trade decently with cav or monsters for only a modest price increase. I doubt you'd see EK much if KE/KOTR were available to the Empire, but the performance differential is fair given the breadth of the Empire roster.

    I think the armor benefit is still being heavily underrated here. 110 armor vs 90 or 80 remains a significant advantage. With their mild hp benefit, empire knights remain significantly tankier than KE's. Assuming 110 armor averages to 80% save, this becomes evident by the numbers. Vs silver helms for example, KE's die in 5-6 hits(5.5 average), while knights die in 7-8(with 7.65 being the average). Even KOTR die in 6-7 hits, despite higher hp and 90 armor, with 6.6 being the average.

    Vs a unit of generic high elf spears, we're talking about 6.6 hits needed to kill empire knights vs 4.6 for knights errant or 5.54 for kotr.

    If all you want is lower-mid tier disrupts, then empire knights at 850 are still very competitive with a unit like KE or KOTR, especially in their price range.
    Regularly publish Total War: Warhammer 2 content on my YT channel

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPI93p-X2T4YKD18O16bhPw
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    edited November 9

    Empire cav other than demis trades horribly with other heavy cav for cost.

    They really don't, for example Empire Knights are cost-effective into Wild Riders.

    Blazing Suns tie v Cold One Knights which is a specialized AP AL cav.

    Reiksguard beats Black Knight (Lances and Barding) and Silver Helms.


    A lot of cav units in this game happen to have AP and AL, so yes, the generic Empire cavalry loses vs those, but still both Empire Knights and Knights of the Blazing Sun, and to a lesser degree Reiksguard also are very above average in the shock cav department.

    Very sure Empire Knights beats Knights Errant also.

    Just don't ask the same price/tier of cav to beat something like Knights of the Realm, those are OP anyway due to being in THE cav faction and even if they weren't there's 0 reason why a generic cavalry should trade into a specialized one.

    More generally I have to wonder how little insight OP can have to start such a thread about some of the best cav units calling them underpowered lol.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    ^ come on, not first day in the game. Frikking $1000 vs $1200, some r even as stupid as $1150 vs $900. Waste of time really. Theres like absolutely 0 insights about the costs of those cavs.

    Emp knights r nothing but armour and armour and more armour. Stats r absolutely abysmal which fortunately again, makes up for it by armour.

    As for knights of the realm, its just stupid to even label them anywhere near op. Thats just completely lack any knowledge od the game, they r by far one of the worst in that region in terms of anti large. Boars, cold knights, cold riders, all r ap anti large of $1000 with boar even cheaper than that.
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Posts: 535Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Empire cav other than demis trades horribly with other heavy cav for cost.

    They really don't, for example Empire Knights are cost-effective into Wild Riders.

    Blazing Suns tie v Cold One Knights which is a specialized AP AL cav.

    Reiksguard beats Black Knight (Lances and Barding) and Silver Helms.


    A lot of cav units in this game happen to have AP and AL, so yes, the generic Empire cavalry loses vs those, but still both Empire Knights and Knights of the Blazing Sun, and to a lesser degree Reiksguard also are very above average in the shock cav department.

    Very sure Empire Knights beats Knights Errant also.

    Just don't ask the same price/tier of cav to beat something like Knights of the Realm, those are OP anyway due to being in THE cav faction and even if they weren't there's 0 reason why a generic cavalry should trade into a specialized one.

    More generally I have to wonder how little insight OP can have to start such a thread about some of the best cav units calling them underpowered lol.
    Wild riders are not heavy cav IMO (and the specific reason I said heavy). And whatever you call them, they're pretty infamous for their cost ineffecient trades with heavy cav. I think only Black Knights trade comparable badly - empire cav and SH are half a notch up.

    Other than that I think we're pretty much in agreement.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 691Registered Users
    Chaun said:

    I just wanted to point out that the difference of 90 armor vs 120 armor is quite substantial when it comes to reducing non-AP damage.

    90 armor reduced non-AP damage by about 67.5%. While 120 armor reduced it by about 86%.
    Thinking about it another way,

    instead of taking 32.5% damage, you take 14%. Which means non-AP damage is cut by more than half!

    In practice, since "non-AP" attacks have some AP component, the actual reduction is about 25- 30%. Which is still pretty big!

    Idk, It would be more useful to them if they were a unit that was designed to stay in a fight. Their extra armor cost them about 10% of the speed of other horse cav.

    120 armor vs attacker with 30% non-ap means about 25% of total damage blocked on average.
    90 armor vs attacker with 30% non-ap means about 20% of total damage blocked on average.

    That means 30 armor saves them from about 5% of incoming damage against an average ap unit... I just don't see how that is worth it given their low stat-line.


    I am not sure about the bolded part above....

    90 armor blocks 67.5% of non-AP damage. In the case of a 70% non-AP / 30% AP hitting the unit, the damage done woudl be:

    30% + [(70%) * (100 - 67.5)%] = 30% + 22.75% = 52.75% taken

    120 armor blocks 86% of non-AP damage. In the case of a 70% non-AP / 30% AP hitting the unit, the damage done woudl be:

    30% + [(70%) * (100 - 86)%] = 30% + 10% = 40% taken.

    So it looks like that 30 armor saves from about 12-13% damage. In total, reducing incoming damage by about 24%. That's pretty good.

  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    edited November 9
    Hes refering to ap opponent which is correct. They r very effective vs low ap targets, anything with ap tho just blows them apart.
    Post edited by yst on
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,229Registered Users
    edited November 9
    Chaun said:



    These units are advertised as shock cav, but have the worst offensive stats of comparably priced shock cav. The only high stat they have is armor, but armor has diminishing returns after 100 (armor above 100 does not increase maximum possible roll, it only increases minimum possible roll), especially given the plethora of AP options that exist in the game.

    No.

    You roll on the entire range of armour, in case of Reiksguard 60-120, and everything above 100 is rounded down to 100, making armour above 100 actually worth more, and gets progressively more valuable the more you get.

    If you have a unit with a 100 armour, it rolls between 50 and 100. If it rolls 100, you completely negate non-AP damage. You have 2% chance to get that.

    If you get a unit with 120 armour, it rolls between 60-120. If it rolls anywhere between 100-120, you completely negate non-AP damage. You have 33% chance of rolling that.

    That is why units with high armour are extremely resistant to non-AP damage, and require dedicated AP counters. Going above 100 adds a lot to survivability. You can test that easily by having a unit of Skavenslave Slingers (1AP/6 regular damage) shoot at the back of KotBS and Reiksguard. The difference should be miniscule if armour worked as you say, KotBS would ignore 75% on average, Reiksguard would ignore 80%, a mere 5% difference.

    In reality, when Skavenslave Slingers use up all ammunition:

    Knights of the Blazing Suns have suffered 3954 damage (24 models killed)

    Reiksguard have suffered 2901 (16 models killed).

    That is a difference of roughly 27% in damage suffered, much more than 5%.

    That includes that 1AP slingers have, which always goes through if the missile hits, regardless of armour. If we took that out of the equation, and looked only on non-AP damage suffered, difference would be certainly over 30%.

    TLDR : Armour above 100 is very valuable and gets more valuable the more you have. Empire cavarly is very efficient, in no small part to armour.
  • another505another505 Posts: 992Registered Users
    edited November 9
    Regarding KOTR, they are fine, and carrying bretonnia more than grail knights right now

    Comparing them to empire knight is a disservice , KOTR is a damage dealer and flank winner, empire knight is a tank and disrupter.
    While the meta favours KOTR, empire knight in empire is very effective. Even i wish bret has empire knight instead of grail guardians
  • tzurugbytzurugby Posts: 262Registered Users



    No.

    You roll on the entire range of armour, in case of Reiksguard 60-120, and everything above 100 is rounded down to 100, making armour above 100 actually worth more, and gets progressively more valuable the more you get.

    If you have a unit with a 100 armour, it rolls between 50 and 100. If it rolls 100, you completely negate non-AP damage. You have 2% chance to get that.

    If you get a unit with 120 armour, it rolls between 60-120. If it rolls anywhere between 100-120, you completely negate non-AP damage. You have 33% chance of rolling that.

    That is why units with high armour are extremely resistant to non-AP damage, and require dedicated AP counters. Going above 100 adds a lot to survivability. You can test that easily by having a unit of Skavenslave Slingers (1AP/6 regular damage) shoot at the back of KotBS and Reiksguard. The difference should be miniscule if armour worked as you say, KotBS would ignore 75% on average, Reiksguard would ignore 80%, a mere 5% difference.

    In reality, when Skavenslave Slingers use up all ammunition:

    Knights of the Blazing Suns have suffered 3954 damage (24 models killed)

    Reiksguard have suffered 2901 (16 models killed).

    That is a difference of roughly 27% in damage suffered, much more than 5%.

    That includes that 1AP slingers have, which always goes through if the missile hits, regardless of armour. If we took that out of the equation, and looked only on non-AP damage suffered, difference would be certainly over 30%.

    TLDR : Armour above 100 is very valuable and gets more valuable the more you have. Empire cavarly is very efficient, in no small part to armour.



    There is definitely a diminishing rate of return on armour as Chaun states, and armour above 100 has less value per point than armour below 100.

    As a broad stroke think of it this way. Going from 0 to 100 amour gets you an average of about 75% mitigation from non-AP damage. Going from 100 to 200 gets you an average mitigation of near 100%, or an additional 25% mitigation for that additional 100 armour. So, you get +75% mitigation for the first 100 armour and only +25% mitigation for the second 100 armour. That is exactly what diminishing rate of return means.

    Even that is not quite right, as armour can not mitigate 100% of non-AP damage, but it is close enough an approximation to understand what is actually going on.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    tzurugby said:



    There is definitely a diminishing rate of return on armour as Chaun states, and armour above 100 has less value per point than armour below 100.

    the return is increasing, not diminishing. For example, if you go from 50% average block (66.6 armor) to 75% (100 armor), the effective HP vs non-AP doubles, however you increased armor only by 50%.

    AP component of every weapon attenuates this mechanic, but the general trend stays.

    You can also notice this ingame by e.g. picking HE archers and letting them shoot a 100 armor unit (Executioners) and a 125 armor one. The damage mitigation if far more significant in the latter case.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 900Registered Users
    tzurugby said:



    No.

    You roll on the entire range of armour, in case of Reiksguard 60-120, and everything above 100 is rounded down to 100, making armour above 100 actually worth more, and gets progressively more valuable the more you get.

    If you have a unit with a 100 armour, it rolls between 50 and 100. If it rolls 100, you completely negate non-AP damage. You have 2% chance to get that.

    If you get a unit with 120 armour, it rolls between 60-120. If it rolls anywhere between 100-120, you completely negate non-AP damage. You have 33% chance of rolling that.

    That is why units with high armour are extremely resistant to non-AP damage, and require dedicated AP counters. Going above 100 adds a lot to survivability. You can test that easily by having a unit of Skavenslave Slingers (1AP/6 regular damage) shoot at the back of KotBS and Reiksguard. The difference should be miniscule if armour worked as you say, KotBS would ignore 75% on average, Reiksguard would ignore 80%, a mere 5% difference.

    In reality, when Skavenslave Slingers use up all ammunition:

    Knights of the Blazing Suns have suffered 3954 damage (24 models killed)

    Reiksguard have suffered 2901 (16 models killed).

    That is a difference of roughly 27% in damage suffered, much more than 5%.

    That includes that 1AP slingers have, which always goes through if the missile hits, regardless of armour. If we took that out of the equation, and looked only on non-AP damage suffered, difference would be certainly over 30%.

    TLDR : Armour above 100 is very valuable and gets more valuable the more you have. Empire cavarly is very efficient, in no small part to armour.



    There is definitely a diminishing rate of return on armour as Chaun states, and armour above 100 has less value per point than armour below 100.

    As a broad stroke think of it this way. Going from 0 to 100 amour gets you an average of about 75% mitigation from non-AP damage. Going from 100 to 200 gets you an average mitigation of near 100%, or an additional 25% mitigation for that additional 100 armour. So, you get +75% mitigation for the first 100 armour and only +25% mitigation for the second 100 armour. That is exactly what diminishing rate of return means.

    Even that is not quite right, as armour can not mitigate 100% of non-AP damage, but it is close enough an approximation to understand what is actually going on.

    You're thinking of it backwards.

    If you go from 0% to 75% mitigation - 0 to 100 armor - you are taking 25% of the damage, which is 1/4th as much as before.

    If you go from 75% to 90% mitigation - 100 to 120 armor - you are taking 10% damage, which is less than half as much as you were taking previously for only a 1/5th increase in armor. This is because more points of armor push up both the maximum and the *minimum* points of the range within which armor rolls to mitigate damage, so 100 armor rolls 50-100% while 120 rolls 60-120% and then rounds down anything over 100 to 100.
Sign In or Register to comment.