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Vampire counts balancing discussion

TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
edited November 10 in Balancing Discussions
The Vampire Counts are in a bit of an odd place imo, since the "adjustment" to Nehek;

Since you cannot compensate the innate weaknesses of your roster through healing and spamming summons anymore, the power has to come from somewhere else (imo).
Also there are (as always) units that simply don t perform well in general, so let s get started;

PS: My thoughts on Lore of Vampires are linked here, the first 2 posts below the OP
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/253862/possible-rework-idea-for-the-lore-of-vampires#latest


Banshee hero;
Melee stats aren t godd enough for a duel hero. Without support, absolutely not impactful in this regard. As a terrorbomb she can work, but for that are cairn wraiths the better choice.

Suggestions;
(1) Give here a missle attack like the Terrorgheist, that works well against single target and debuffs MA and MD by 8 (or so=)
(2) +4 MA

Vampire hero
Useful enough to be taken sometimes, but lacks a distinct role. Performs well with equipment, but that s not a cost effective way.
Can dish out decent damage, but is rather fragile. Also you often don t need a secondary caster of this kind because either
a) too less WoM available
b) your Lord already has access to more then 1 lore.

Suggestions;
(1) +100 hp, +5 CB, -50g


Cairn wraiths
Garbage without magic support, tho they perform well with it. They simply don t hit anything without a vanhels/corpse cart etc. and that shouldn t be (so extreme).
The best way describing what they should be would be " specialized shock troops with glass cannon possibility"

Suggestion; +6 MA, +5 % physical resistance, -6 MD, add "strider"-passive ability (or make it visible on the unit card!)


Black Knights with lances and barding

They (again) perform very bad in sustained combat (everything after 10 sec after charging) and with how charging mechanics work in TWW they will get worn down in time. Too expensive as a throwaway unit, not quiet good enough at killing independently it´s a weird spot.

Suggestion;
(1) +8 Bonus vs Infantry, +50g to give them a distinct role as "lawnmower"



Hexwraiths
They (again) don t perform truly good without support magic, with it they can take on units that are 200-300g above their pricetag.
Again, I´d like to see a shift here to make them less dependant on magic to do damage while making them more dependant on their physical resistance; Potential to die faster +potential to do more damage where it is needed.

Suggestions;
(1) +8 MA, - 4 MD , +5% physical resistance , add "strider"-passive ability (or make it visible on the unit card!)


Dire wolves
Once they start to crumble (and with leaderhship that happens fast!), they are pretty much gone; Crumbeling here is a clear disadvantage, since normal warhounds do have the potential to rout and to disturb again.

Suggestions;
(1) +5 leadership, -25g

Vargheists
They die incredibly fast and take too much damage, even in advantageous engagements. Even when trying to cyclecharge, they get stuck and die to fast. They do not work in a balanced army and only mediocre in specialized builds.

Suggestions;
(1) +10 armor (half of Varghulf, their bigger brother), +15 hp per model
(2) replace "Vanguard" on the "Devils of Schwarzhafen" with smth useful like regen/physical resistance/or damage buff please!


Corpse carts (all variations)

They are slow and they can get focused down handily by ranged or monsters long before you get to the fight. Therefore I suggest the following;
Add an ability that grants physical resistance based upon the number of models in the area up to a certain threashhold (like 50-60%), a literal "body"-guard, to the cart.


(1)Cart normal ;
Either -50 ( since it is only this buff that is helpful, the cart can t fight!) or buff "vigour mortis" with +4 leadership

(2) Balefire cart;
Magic drain really is only useful in camapign (since there you can easily accumulate enough models in the AoE) so either
a) vigour mortis +4 leadership and -50g

(3) Lodestone cart;
The heal is not that potent and considering all the other weaknesses of the cart (slow, can t fight)+ the nerf to Nehek I´d suggest -50 g



And while testing the Vampires I found "soulblight" from the lore of death to not be particularly effective.
Armor debuff is ok, but only WS debuff is not impactfull enough

Suggestion; make soulblight affect Weapon DAMAGE instead of STRENGTH or add - 18 MD and +1 WoM

Post edited by TeNoSkill on
«1

Comments

  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 691Registered Users
    TeNoSkill said:

    The Vampire Counts are in a bit of an odd place imo, since the "adjustment" to Nehek;

    Since you cannot compensate the innate weaknesses of your roster through healing and spamming summons anymore, the power has to come from somewhere else (imo).
    Also there are (as always) units that simply don t perform well in general, so let s get started;

    PS: My thoughts on Lore of Vampires are linked here
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/253862/possible-rework-idea-for-the-lore-of-vampires#latest


    Banshee hero;
    Melee stats aren t godd enough for a duel hero. Without support, absolutely not impactful in this regard. As a terrorbomb she can work, but for that are cairn wraiths the better choice.

    Suggestions;
    (1) Give here a missle attack like the Terrorgheist, that works well against single target and debuffs MA and MD by 8 (or so=)
    (2) +4 MA

    Vampire hero
    Useful enough to be taken sometimes, but lacks a distinct role. Performs well with equipment, but that s not a cost effective way.
    Can dish out decent damage, but is rather fragile. Also you often don t need a secondary caster of this kind because either
    a) too less WoM available
    b) your Lord already has access to more then 1 lore.

    Suggestions;
    (1) +100 hp, +5 CB, -50g


    Cairn wraiths
    Garbage without magic support, tho they perform well with it. They simply don t hit anything without a vanhels/corpse cart etc. and that shouldn t be (so extreme).
    The best way describing what they should be would be " specialized shock troops with glass cannon possibility"

    Suggestion; +6 MA, +5 % physical resistance, -6 MD, add "strider"-passive ability (or make it visible on the unit card!)


    Black Knights with lances and barding

    They (again) perform very bad in sustained combat (everything after 10 sec after charging) and with how charging mechanics work in TWW they will get worn down in time. Too expensive as a throwaway unit, not quiet good enough at killing independently it´s a weird spot.

    Suggestion;
    (1) +8 Bonus vs Infantry, +50g to give them a distinct role as "lawnmower"



    Hexwraiths
    They (again) don t perform truly good without support magic, with it they can take on units that are 200-300g above their pricetag.
    Again, I´d like to see a shift here to make them less dependant on magic to do damage while making them more dependant on their physical resistance; Potential to die faster +potential to do more damage where it is needed.

    Suggestions;
    (1) +8 MA, - 4 MD , +5% physical resistance , add "strider"-passive ability (or make it visible on the unit card!)


    Dire wolves
    Once they start to crumble (and with leaderhship that happens fast!), they are pretty much gone; Crumbeling here is a clear disadvantage, since normal warhounds do have the potential to rout and to disturb again.

    Suggestions;
    (1) +5 leadership, -25g

    Vargheists
    They die incredibly fast and take too much damage, even in advantageous engagements. Even when trying to cyclecharge, they get stuck and die to fast. They do not work in a balanced army and only mediocre in specialized builds.

    Suggestions;
    (1) +10 armor (half of Varghulf, their bigger brother), +15 hp per model
    (2) replace "Vanguard" on the "Devils of Schwarzhafen" with smth useful like regen/physical resistance/or damage buff please!


    Corpse carts (all variations)

    They are slow and they can get focused down handily by ranged or monsters long before you get to the fight. Therefore I suggest the following;
    Add an ability that grants physical resistance based upon the number of models in the area up to a certain threashhold (like 50-60%), a literal "body"-guard, to the cart.

    (1)Cart normal ;
    Either -100 ( since it is only this buff that is helpful, the cart can t fight!) or buff "vigour mortis" with +4 leadership

    (2) Balefire cart;
    Magic drain really is only useful in camapign (since there you can easily accumulate enough models in the AoE) so either
    a) vigour mortis +4 leadership and -50g
    OR
    b) add a drain aura (active in melee) that does half the damage of the mortis engine and +50g

    (3) Lodestone cart;
    The heal is not that potent and considering all the other weaknesses of the cart (slow, can t fight)+ the nerf to Nehek I´d suggest -100 g



    And while testing the Vampires I found "soulblight" from the lore of death to not be particularly effective.
    Armor debuff is ok, but only WS debuff is not impactfull enough

    Suggestion; make soulblight affect Weapon DAMAGE instead of STRENGTH or add - 18 MD and +1 WoM

    Good ideas in general.

    I would just say that for the balefire cart, how about making it drain vigour?
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    Most of the suggestions in here are way over the top.

    The fact that VC need help is also all to be proven.
  • Lord_DistamorfinLord_Distamorfin Posts: 434Registered Users
    TeNoSkill said:

    The Vampire Counts are in a bit of an odd place imo, since the "adjustment" to Nehek;

    Since you cannot compensate the innate weaknesses of your roster through healing and spamming summons anymore, the power has to come from somewhere else (imo).
    Also there are (as always) units that simply don t perform well in general, so let s get started;

    PS: My thoughts on Lore of Vampires are linked here
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/253862/possible-rework-idea-for-the-lore-of-vampires#latest


    Banshee hero;
    Melee stats aren t godd enough for a duel hero. Without support, absolutely not impactful in this regard. As a terrorbomb she can work, but for that are cairn wraiths the better choice.

    Suggestions;
    (1) Give here a missle attack like the Terrorgheist, that works well against single target and debuffs MA and MD by 8 (or so=)
    (2) +4 MA

    Vampire hero
    Useful enough to be taken sometimes, but lacks a distinct role. Performs well with equipment, but that s not a cost effective way.
    Can dish out decent damage, but is rather fragile. Also you often don t need a secondary caster of this kind because either
    a) too less WoM available
    b) your Lord already has access to more then 1 lore.

    Suggestions;
    (1) +100 hp, +5 CB, -50g


    Cairn wraiths
    Garbage without magic support, tho they perform well with it. They simply don t hit anything without a vanhels/corpse cart etc. and that shouldn t be (so extreme).
    The best way describing what they should be would be " specialized shock troops with glass cannon possibility"

    Suggestion; +6 MA, +5 % physical resistance, -6 MD, add "strider"-passive ability (or make it visible on the unit card!)


    Black Knights with lances and barding

    They (again) perform very bad in sustained combat (everything after 10 sec after charging) and with how charging mechanics work in TWW they will get worn down in time. Too expensive as a throwaway unit, not quiet good enough at killing independently it´s a weird spot.

    Suggestion;
    (1) +8 Bonus vs Infantry, +50g to give them a distinct role as "lawnmower"



    Hexwraiths
    They (again) don t perform truly good without support magic, with it they can take on units that are 200-300g above their pricetag.
    Again, I´d like to see a shift here to make them less dependant on magic to do damage while making them more dependant on their physical resistance; Potential to die faster +potential to do more damage where it is needed.

    Suggestions;
    (1) +8 MA, - 4 MD , +5% physical resistance , add "strider"-passive ability (or make it visible on the unit card!)


    Dire wolves
    Once they start to crumble (and with leaderhship that happens fast!), they are pretty much gone; Crumbeling here is a clear disadvantage, since normal warhounds do have the potential to rout and to disturb again.

    Suggestions;
    (1) +5 leadership, -25g

    Vargheists
    They die incredibly fast and take too much damage, even in advantageous engagements. Even when trying to cyclecharge, they get stuck and die to fast. They do not work in a balanced army and only mediocre in specialized builds.

    Suggestions;
    (1) +10 armor (half of Varghulf, their bigger brother), +15 hp per model
    (2) replace "Vanguard" on the "Devils of Schwarzhafen" with smth useful like regen/physical resistance/or damage buff please!


    Corpse carts (all variations)

    They are slow and they can get focused down handily by ranged or monsters long before you get to the fight. Therefore I suggest the following;
    Add an ability that grants physical resistance based upon the number of models in the area up to a certain threashhold (like 50-60%), a literal "body"-guard, to the cart.

    (1)Cart normal ;
    Either -100 ( since it is only this buff that is helpful, the cart can t fight!) or buff "vigour mortis" with +4 leadership

    (2) Balefire cart;
    Magic drain really is only useful in camapign (since there you can easily accumulate enough models in the AoE) so either
    a) vigour mortis +4 leadership and -50g
    OR
    b) add a drain aura (active in melee) that does half the damage of the mortis engine and +50g

    (3) Lodestone cart;
    The heal is not that potent and considering all the other weaknesses of the cart (slow, can t fight)+ the nerf to Nehek I´d suggest -100 g



    And while testing the Vampires I found "soulblight" from the lore of death to not be particularly effective.
    Armor debuff is ok, but only WS debuff is not impactfull enough

    Suggestion; make soulblight affect Weapon DAMAGE instead of STRENGTH or add - 18 MD and +1 WoM

    The Banshee hero should definitely get its "Ghostly Howl" ability. Classing it a breath attack might be the best way to go about it considering it's supposed to be scream, although CA would probably have to simplify it to just do straight damage (as opposed to doing damage based on the target's leadership, sadly).

    Devils of Swartzhafen could do with a more useful ability than vanguard deployment.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    edited November 10
    VC are not in a bad spot as people think, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g
    Post edited by Lotus_Moon on
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,355Registered Users

    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I generally agree with this take more than OP's(I do think balefire corpse cart needs something as well, since atm it's just bad, though it got an entire thread dedicated to it at one point).

    That said, I do have to say I disagree with nerfing Black Knights, even by a small amount. Sure they're really strong, no doubt about it, but what cavalry in that price range is not strong? Nehekharan Horsemen, Empire Knights, Knights Errant, Centigors, Cold One Riders, Squig hoppers and even units right on the cusp with this low-mid cost cav like ellyrian reavers are really good for their price. The only outliers in badness are boar boys. Unless we're looking to spike unit costs for all of them across the board, I think it would be entirely unfair to single out Black Knights.
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    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPI93p-X2T4YKD18O16bhPw
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I generally agree with this take more than OP's(I do think balefire corpse cart needs something as well, since atm it's just bad, though it got an entire thread dedicated to it at one point).

    That said, I do have to say I disagree with nerfing Black Knights, even by a small amount. Sure they're really strong, no doubt about it, but what cavalry in that price range is not strong? Nehekharan Horsemen, Empire Knights, Knights Errant, Centigors, Cold One Riders, Squig hoppers and even units right on the cusp with this low-mid cost cav like ellyrian reavers are really good for their price. The only outliers in badness are boar boys. Unless we're looking to spike unit costs for all of them across the board, I think it would be entirely unfair to single out Black Knights.
    I dont think Empire knights, centigors or cold one riders are are as good as black knights, Nehekahara are for sure but they are in need of a nerf also.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    edited November 10
    Then pls elaborate why you think so!



    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Posts: 218Registered Users
    Hunger and Regeneration to all Vampiric Units

    Immunity to Nehek for all Vampiric Units

    Strider and immunity to vigor loss for all Ethereal Units

    Removal of Helm of Discord from Blood Dragon Lord

    Dire Wolves -25 Gold

  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited November 10


    Nerf
    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    Dunno if it needed. Yeah, they are cost effective, but VC do need mobile pressure, it is no range faction after all.

    And only if similar cost buff to Lances. Cause Lances are slightly overpriced right now.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?
    Black Knights barding i think are fine because i did testing comparing with silver helms and reiksguard and they perfrom very well, their issue is not that they are a bad unit its rather that non barded and blood knights are superb units, there was a change though that i missed with barded ones which doesnt make sense to me, why do they drop -2ma and -8md over normal black knights.

    Maybe a better change should be,

    Black Knights -1 MA, -3MD

    Black Knights Lance and Barding +1MA +5md

    This would be a nerf to normal ones and buff to lance version.



    I think Vargheists are fine, i seen korean top players use them all the time to great effect, agreed that the ROR is crap though perhaps give the ROR hunger?

    Coorps carts, i think the normal one is really good at 250g, its freaking slow though, but buffing its speed is hard to justify unless all zombie speed gets buffed, perhaps zombies (all factions) can get +2 speed including corps cart, its not a big buff but its something.

    I'm not against it having encourage also.

    The other two would be justified with -100g.

    Regarding lore of vampires, i think overall the lore is good, gaze needs WOM reduction, nehek is still super strong (i would be ok with it not healing lords and heroes ONLY if all vampire heroes/lords get hunger for free and BLood Knights) but thats just getting into balancing trouble, danse is a good spell, raise dead is great also though i wish OC was more worth it, cures of years is the only one that i think needs improvement, what if it also reduced opponents vigour by -18%?

    "How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?"

    It would keep their speed the same, would not reduce their MA and MD and they would not suffer LD penalties for being tired/exausted, it would be a very big buff actually, that might end up making them too good.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,054Registered Users
    Vargheist Is still not a good unit despite some of those minor changes they got. They r insanely fragile and horrors just pretty meh, their dmg output r absurdly low.

    Ghost wise, hex r pretty ok now, some room for improvements but generally usable. Wraith and banshee need a much bigger help.

    Its difficult to pin point where vamps biggest weak link are other than direwolves really. Those r one hella garbage unit
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    tank3487 said:


    Nerf
    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    Dunno if it needed. Yeah, they are cost effective, but VC do need mobile pressure, it is no range faction after all.

    And only if similar cost buff to Lances. Cause Lances are slightly overpriced right now.
    I don't think being a no range faction is a valid excuse, only when it comes to air support i feel because of how the game currently works, there are ranged factions who dont have some other tools that VC have etc etc, i think my above post explains the black knights things a bit more and it does buff the lance version which i forgot to mention.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    edited November 10
    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?
    Banshees are some of the best duelists in the game though. They can duel cost-efficiently... well, anything without magical attacks. Kholek, a Star Dragon, all game for a Banshee.

    You're one of those guys who looks only at MA and MD stat I guess huh. Then I guess for you Swordmasters must be among the best units in the game and Nasty Skulkers among the worst.

    In truth, Banshees are very very strong at the moment and very underpriced. There's little reason not to take 1 vs most factions, often even 2.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?
    Banshees are some of the best duelists in the game though.

    You're one of those guys who looks only at MA and MD stat I guess huh. Then I guess for you Swordmasters must be among the best units in the game and Nasty Skulkers among the worst.

    In truth, Banshees are very very strong at the moment and very underpriced. There's little reason not to take 1 vs most factions, often even 2.
    Yes, Banshees can kill most heroes and tie up lords;
    Yes, it takes ages to do so and your opponent to not simply move said character away and THAT matters! That they can be easily destroyed by magic damage makes them not even reliable, so stop overinflating it!
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?
    Black Knights barding i think are fine because i did testing comparing with silver helms and reiksguard and they perfrom very well, their issue is not that they are a bad unit its rather that non barded and blood knights are superb units, there was a change though that i missed with barded ones which doesnt make sense to me, why do they drop -2ma and -8md over normal black knights.

    Maybe a better change should be,

    Black Knights -1 MA, -3MD

    Black Knights Lance and Barding +1MA +5md

    This would be a nerf to normal ones and buff to lance version.



    Black Knights (barding) are shock cav, which means they already have lower stats (relying on their Cb do hit) and they are undead; And THAT means they have 2x lower stats.
    The melee stats should be different, otherwise Black Knights (700g) should be renamed and reskined because having just an entirely inferior version of a unit is boring.

    And I don t see it as a effective solution to have BKnormal and Blood Knights brought down to the lvl of BKBarding instead of just improving BKBarding to have a role like with 8 BvsI.

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?

    I think Vargheists are fine, i seen korean top players use them all the time to great effect, agreed that the ROR is crap though perhaps give the ROR hunger?

    The pls link to me videos or streams or describe how they made them work!

    RoR the easiest solution would be regen or more hp then the normal version and a missle resistance

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?


    Coorps carts, i think the normal one is really good at 250g, its freaking slow though, but buffing its speed is hard to justify unless all zombie speed gets buffed, perhaps zombies (all factions) can get +2 speed including corps cart, its not a big buff but its something.

    I'm not against it having encourage also.

    The other two would be justified with -100g.

    The basic cart provides the same buff as "my will be done", but the latter costs only 160g and is much more mobile with the character.
    And with the "adjustment" to Nehek it is now less favourable to buff your frontline/blob with it/ take the risk of it (cart) getting destroyed early on and that was the ONLY way you can use it thanks to its abysmal speed.

    +2 speed won t address the problem here coz it will still slow your infantry down, making it a better target.
    Again I propose the addition of an ability, that grants physical resistance up to a certain threashhold (like 40-60%) based on the number of models in the AoE.
    That shoul be achieveable easy enough while still being suceptable to vortexes and magic missles.


  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,160Registered Users
    edited November 10
    TeNoSkill said:


    Yes, Banshees can kill most heroes and tie up lords;
    Yes, it takes ages to do so and your opponent to not simply move said character away and THAT matters!

    that's VC for you. They play that way, don't like them, don't play them. Also a Banshee has 60 speed, which incidentally is the same speed as for example a Dragon on the ground, I have to wonder when a Zombie summon is around, how wise it is to "simply move away the character".
    TeNoSkill said:

    That they can be easily destroyed by magic damage makes them not even reliable, so stop overinflating it!

    Banshees are actually quite resilient to magic damage as long as you keep track of them. Yes people tend to bring magical attacks vs VC (though not always) but I can hardly see 12400 funds devoted to magical attacks so there's normally an occasion to make them shine.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?


    Regarding lore of vampires, i think overall the lore is good, gaze needs WOM reduction, nehek is still super strong (i would be ok with it not healing lords and heroes ONLY if all vampire heroes/lords get hunger for free and BLood Knights) but thats just getting into balancing trouble, danse is a good spell, raise dead is great also though i wish OC was more worth it, cures of years is the only one that i think needs improvement, what if it also reduced opponents vigour by -18%?

    Agreed on "Gaze".
    Yes, Nehek is still troubeling; It would have been good if they had split the VC roster into vampiric and thralls like with Tomb Kings.
    I think good compromise would be
    (1) Having it not work on Lords and heroes
    (2) Make "the Hunger" a common ability
    (3) remove the 4_max limitation

    OR

    if the limitation persists (4_max_targets) , add +18% vigour

    My proposition on Curse of years
    (3) "Curse of years", also needs smth different then it is now; less MA is nice and the ability reload is useful more often then not but the speed is useless in prolonged engagements and since your infantry is most of the time all but expendable....
    It is nicely mirrored by "curse of Anraheir", tho this spell lasts 7 seconds longer!

    I´d suggest to replace the ability recharge time by a vigour penalty of -9% and furthermore to make it a normal version an an overcast.
    Normal version is single target for 8-9 WoM with only -9% vigour and overcast for 17-18 WoM gives AoE and -18% vigour



    I also think the passive should be changed coz the healing is rather useless in the VC roster, whwere there are so many different healing sources;
    It should stop crumbeling and restore 5% vigour.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    edited November 10

    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?



    Regarding lore of vampires, i think overall the lore is good, gaze needs WOM reduction, nehek is still super strong (i would be ok with it not healing lords and heroes ONLY if all vampire heroes/lords get hunger for free and BLood Knights) but thats just getting into balancing trouble, danse is a good spell, raise dead is great also though i wish OC was more worth it, cures of years is the only one that i think needs improvement, what if it also reduced opponents vigour by -18%?





    (1)Agreed on "Gaze", maybe a secondary effect would also be a way.

    (2) Nehek is still troubeling, it should have been like the Tomb Kings with thrall and vampiric units.
    A possible way would be
    - remove 4_max_target
    - make it not work on heroes or Lords
    - make "The Hunger" a common ability

    OR

    add +18% vigour, if the 4_max persists



    (3) "Curse of years", also needs smth different then it is now; less MA is nice and the ability reload is useful more often then not but the speed is useless in prolonged engagements and since your infantry is most of the time all but expendable....
    It is nicely mirrored by "curse of Anraheir", tho this spell lasts 7 seconds longer!

    I´d suggest to replace the ability recharge time by a vigour penalty of -9% and furthermore to make it a normal version an an overcast.
    Normal version is single target for 8-9 WoM with only -9% vigour and overcast for 17-18 WoM gives AoE and -18% vigour



    I also think the passive is not very usefull in a roster that has so many alternate healing sources.
    I think it should stop crumbeling and restore +5% vigour
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    TeNoSkill said:

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?
    Black Knights barding i think are fine because i did testing comparing with silver helms and reiksguard and they perfrom very well, their issue is not that they are a bad unit its rather that non barded and blood knights are superb units, there was a change though that i missed with barded ones which doesnt make sense to me, why do they drop -2ma and -8md over normal black knights.

    Maybe a better change should be,

    Black Knights -1 MA, -3MD

    Black Knights Lance and Barding +1MA +5md

    This would be a nerf to normal ones and buff to lance version.



    Black Knights (barding) are shock cav, which means they already have lower stats (relying on their Cb do hit) and they are undead; And THAT means they have 2x lower stats.
    The melee stats should be different, otherwise Black Knights (700g) should be renamed and reskined because having just an entirely inferior version of a unit is boring.

    And I don t see it as a effective solution to have BKnormal and Blood Knights brought down to the lvl of BKBarding instead of just improving BKBarding to have a role like with 8 BvsI.

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?

    I think Vargheists are fine, i seen korean top players use them all the time to great effect, agreed that the ROR is crap though perhaps give the ROR hunger?

    The pls link to me videos or streams or describe how they made them work!

    RoR the easiest solution would be regen or more hp then the normal version and a missle resistance

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?


    Coorps carts, i think the normal one is really good at 250g, its freaking slow though, but buffing its speed is hard to justify unless all zombie speed gets buffed, perhaps zombies (all factions) can get +2 speed including corps cart, its not a big buff but its something.

    I'm not against it having encourage also.

    The other two would be justified with -100g.

    The basic cart provides the same buff as "my will be done", but the latter costs only 160g and is much more mobile with the character.
    And with the "adjustment" to Nehek it is now less favourable to buff your frontline/blob with it/ take the risk of it (cart) getting destroyed early on and that was the ONLY way you can use it thanks to its abysmal speed.

    +2 speed won t address the problem here coz it will still slow your infantry down, making it a better target.
    Again I propose the addition of an ability, that grants physical resistance up to a certain threashhold (like 40-60%) based on the number of models in the AoE.
    That shoul be achieveable easy enough while still being suceptable to vortexes and magic missles.


    Nah they get barding so same principal should be applied as to charecters horse with and without barding, - speed + armour, the fact they get a lance is justified with more charge bonus, there is absolutely no other co relation between MA and MD, they had exactly same WS in table top also.

    Black Knights lances simply dotn deserve +8 bonus v Infantry is as simple as that, the fact they dotn break is big plus they cause fear already, like i said they trade cost efficiently with silver helms and reiksguard...what more do you want of them?

    I don't have videos save but tutorial uses them very often, if you search for some of his VC games you should see them, i seen sooth use them quite often also.

    I dont think the ROR should get more HP but missile resistance etc why not, they do need something.

    Thats not exactly true, because to take my will be done you need to spend 1000g plus on a charecter, you're comparing a unit to an ability which i find silly, does that mean grail relique should be -300g also because it can be compared to some other ability in game...?

    +2 speed wont solve the problem but i dont think there is any problem with the cart, it cost 250g that takes a while to kill and provides a big boost to the VC untis stats, its like a 20%+ stat boos in most cases, think of it differantly, how much would it cost to rank 3 of your units to rank 5? thats pretty much almost what you get from it.

    I absolutely disagree normal cart needs buffs of any kind, the other two i agree need cost reduction.
  • ReymReym Posts: 477Registered Users
    Banshee

    The can be obnoxious enought already, personnaly I never had a problem with her.

    Vampire hero
    Just remember that immortal will regen about 800 hp once activated.

    Cairn Wraith
    Like it. Maybe + 6 MA and -6 MD is a bit hard for a start but I like the idea.

    Black knights (lance and barding)
    Don't see the point. I'll rather give them strider too (didn't they have that in TT too?). Would make up for the low stats in difficult terrain.

    Hexwraith
    I rather see more charge bonus (also the ROR with 42 MA sounds absolutly bonker) this would reward good micro which a fast unit should be all about.

    Direwolves
    Guess that's ok

    Corpse cart: Vigour mortis area to 55 meters instead of 40.

    normal: -100 would make them too easy too include, also it promote blobing a bit much.

    Balefire: 6 units. It is the number required to stop your enemy from getting wom back when its base recharge is at 1 wom every 6 seconds (so the beginning of the game, without using a single spell). This is meant to counter enemy making an healing blob (or at least it work well in this context), which is something you encounter quite often in the races countering VC and a few others. If you really want an interesting buff it is by putting it's aura up to 55 meters nothing crazy like a drain effect.

    Unholy lodestone: again it promotes insane blob too much, putting the healing effect up to 55 meters is enough.
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users


    I don't think being a no range faction is a valid excuse

    It is valid excuse. Any cheap mass + range are very strong combo in game. Empire Knights+handgunners can put to dust plenty of targets. Or Nekehara+bowshabti.


    there are ranged factions who dont have some other tools that VC have etc etc

    And faction without cav do have most OP ranged units in the game. Just look at dawi. Both thunderers and quarrelers are so much better than any range faction analog.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Green0 said:


    that's VC for you. They play that way, don't like them, don't play them. Also a Banshee has 60 speed, which incidentally is the same speed as for example a Dragon on the ground, I have to wonder when a Zombie summon is around, how wise it is to "simply move away the character".

    Simply right click your chaff to support and leave through it. Banshees are infantry size and it is not hard to escape them at all. And you would have plenty of time to do it, cause banshees DPS are low. Banshee is usable only in couple matchups and mainly due to targets that simply too slow to escape it and banshee itslelf not being scary enough to bring single target spells for counter(something like Mammonths(but it is really risky if they take Fire Lore they can one shot Banshee) or Carnifex Colosus or Crabs). Like VCoast that can bring banshee counter easy, but no player bother to do it.

    But I do think that banshees has fewer issues than hexwraiths or especially Cairns. Due to being easier to cover banshee from magic attacks by hiding in chaff.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    tank3487 said:


    I don't think being a no range faction is a valid excuse

    It is valid excuse. Any cheap mass + range are very strong combo in game. Empire Knights+handgunners can put to dust plenty of targets. Or Nekehara+bowshabti.


    there are ranged factions who dont have some other tools that VC have etc etc

    And faction without cav do have most OP ranged units in the game. Just look at dawi. Both thunderers and quarrelers are so much better than any range faction analog.
    Totally disagree, because it meansotehr factions can start using excuses such as, no summons, no mosnters, not whole army unbrakable etc etc, it is what it is, VC have other stuff that other factions dont have.

    Well you know what VC have better than any other faction in the game? healing, 11 sources of healing to be exact, best air in the game... i can go on but it just becaomes me stating the obvious.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?

    It would keep their speed the same, would not reduce their MA and MD and they would not suffer LD penalties for being tired/exausted, it would be a very big buff actually, that might end up making them too good.

    I did some testing, since there are some "immune to vigour for undead"-mods in the workshop

    The most serious impact was the leadership penalty tho it still did devolve into a grinding game with the initial impact staying the same.

    It did tip close matches into their favour like vs CW here
    https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198081878238/screenshots/

    VS without ItV

    https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198081878238/screenshots/


    Against Saurus they lost harder even with ItV

    https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198081878238/screenshots/

    VS without

    https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198081878238/screenshots/

    Again, this would not help them most of the time but create a snowballeffect once VC get into the grinding lategame.


  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    Adjustet propositions regarding corpse carts
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users


    Well you know what VC have better than any other faction in the game? healing, 11 sources of healing to be exact, best air in the game... i can go on but it just becaomes me stating the obvious.

    They do have shared healing cap. Most of those heals are useless due to this issue. How many times you see hunger on Vampire hero? Or most of Strigoi heal abilities? Or Isabella?

    HE have most cost effective air to be fair.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users

    TeNoSkill said:

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?
    Black Knights barding i think are fine because i did testing comparing with silver helms and reiksguard and they perfrom very well, their issue is not that they are a bad unit its rather that non barded and blood knights are superb units, there was a change though that i missed with barded ones which doesnt make sense to me, why do they drop -2ma and -8md over normal black knights.

    Maybe a better change should be,

    Black Knights -1 MA, -3MD

    Black Knights Lance and Barding +1MA +5md

    This would be a nerf to normal ones and buff to lance version.



    Black Knights (barding) are shock cav, which means they already have lower stats (relying on their Cb do hit) and they are undead; And THAT means they have 2x lower stats.
    The melee stats should be different, otherwise Black Knights (700g) should be renamed and reskined because having just an entirely inferior version of a unit is boring.

    And I don t see it as a effective solution to have BKnormal and Blood Knights brought down to the lvl of BKBarding instead of just improving BKBarding to have a role like with 8 BvsI.

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?

    I think Vargheists are fine, i seen korean top players use them all the time to great effect, agreed that the ROR is crap though perhaps give the ROR hunger?

    The pls link to me videos or streams or describe how they made them work!

    RoR the easiest solution would be regen or more hp then the normal version and a missle resistance

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?


    Coorps carts, i think the normal one is really good at 250g, its freaking slow though, but buffing its speed is hard to justify unless all zombie speed gets buffed, perhaps zombies (all factions) can get +2 speed including corps cart, its not a big buff but its something.

    I'm not against it having encourage also.

    The other two would be justified with -100g.

    The basic cart provides the same buff as "my will be done", but the latter costs only 160g and is much more mobile with the character.
    And with the "adjustment" to Nehek it is now less favourable to buff your frontline/blob with it/ take the risk of it (cart) getting destroyed early on and that was the ONLY way you can use it thanks to its abysmal speed.

    +2 speed won t address the problem here coz it will still slow your infantry down, making it a better target.
    Again I propose the addition of an ability, that grants physical resistance up to a certain threashhold (like 40-60%) based on the number of models in the AoE.
    That shoul be achieveable easy enough while still being suceptable to vortexes and magic missles.


    Nah they get barding so same principal should be applied as to charecters horse with and without barding, - speed + armour, the fact they get a lance is justified with more charge bonus, there is absolutely no other co relation between MA and MD, they had exactly same WS in table top also.

    Black Knights lances simply dotn deserve +8 bonus v Infantry is as simple as that, the fact they dotn break is big plus they cause fear already, like i said they trade cost efficiently with silver helms and reiksguard...what more do you want of them?

    (1)This is not the TT tho and shock cav MUST have lower melee stats than melee cav, otherwise what difference would there be?
    BKBarding pay twice for beeing shock cav and undead and ,yes they do trade cost efficiently vs Reiksguard and Silverhelms, but they do lack a distinct role and a bonus vs Infantry wouldn t interfere with their performances vs other unittypes.

    As I said, BK without Barding are better as throwaway-backlinedisturber.
    Blood Knights are better at everything and dedicated anti large.

    Black Knights are in between


    TeNoSkill said:

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?
    Black Knights barding i think are fine because i did testing comparing with silver helms and reiksguard and they perfrom very well, their issue is not that they are a bad unit its rather that non barded and blood knights are superb units, there was a change though that i missed with barded ones which doesnt make sense to me, why do they drop -2ma and -8md over normal black knights.

    Maybe a better change should be,

    Black Knights -1 MA, -3MD

    Black Knights Lance and Barding +1MA +5md

    This would be a nerf to normal ones and buff to lance version.



    Black Knights (barding) are shock cav, which means they already have lower stats (relying on their Cb do hit) and they are undead; And THAT means they have 2x lower stats.
    The melee stats should be different, otherwise Black Knights (700g) should be renamed and reskined because having just an entirely inferior version of a unit is boring.

    And I don t see it as a effective solution to have BKnormal and Blood Knights brought down to the lvl of BKBarding instead of just improving BKBarding to have a role like with 8 BvsI.

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?

    I think Vargheists are fine, i seen korean top players use them all the time to great effect, agreed that the ROR is crap though perhaps give the ROR hunger?

    The pls link to me videos or streams or describe how they made them work!

    RoR the easiest solution would be regen or more hp then the normal version and a missle resistance

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?


    Coorps carts, i think the normal one is really good at 250g, its freaking slow though, but buffing its speed is hard to justify unless all zombie speed gets buffed, perhaps zombies (all factions) can get +2 speed including corps cart, its not a big buff but its something.

    I'm not against it having encourage also.

    The other two would be justified with -100g.

    The basic cart provides the same buff as "my will be done", but the latter costs only 160g and is much more mobile with the character.
    And with the "adjustment" to Nehek it is now less favourable to buff your frontline/blob with it/ take the risk of it (cart) getting destroyed early on and that was the ONLY way you can use it thanks to its abysmal speed.

    +2 speed won t address the problem here coz it will still slow your infantry down, making it a better target.
    Again I propose the addition of an ability, that grants physical resistance up to a certain threashhold (like 40-60%) based on the number of models in the AoE.
    That shoul be achieveable easy enough while still being suceptable to vortexes and magic missles.



    Thats not exactly true, because to take my will be done you need to spend 1000g plus on a charecter, you're comparing a unit to an ability which i find silly, does that mean grail relique should be -300g also because it can be compared to some other ability in game...?

    +2 speed wont solve the problem but i dont think there is any problem with the cart, it cost 250g that takes a while to kill and provides a big boost to the VC untis stats, its like a 20%+ stat boos in most cases, think of it differantly, how much would it cost to rank 3 of your units to rank 5? thats pretty much almost what you get from it.

    I absolutely disagree normal cart needs buffs of any kind, the other two i agree need cost reduction.
    Ok, my comparison might have been bad.
    And yes, while it may seem good on paper it has the following things to struggle with;

    VC infantry usually doesn t decide battles and even with this stat buff they are worse then most low-mid units.
    And that is if it makes it into combat or persists for the battle.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    TeNoSkill said:

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?

    It would keep their speed the same, would not reduce their MA and MD and they would not suffer LD penalties for being tired/exausted, it would be a very big buff actually, that might end up making them too good.

    I did some testing, since there are some "immune to vigour for undead"-mods in the workshop

    The most serious impact was the leadership penalty tho it still did devolve into a grinding game with the initial impact staying the same.

    It did tip close matches into their favour like vs CW here
    https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198081878238/screenshots/

    VS without ItV

    https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198081878238/screenshots/


    Against Saurus they lost harder even with ItV

    https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198081878238/screenshots/

    VS without

    https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198081878238/screenshots/

    Again, this would not help them most of the time but create a snowballeffect once VC get into the grinding lategame.


    Does the mod give ItV to oppoent also?

    Its impossible absolutely impossible to have worse results with ItV than without it.

    Its a buff regardless, and the worse oppoents state the bigger the impact, test exhausted untis vs fresh wraiths and you will see, ItV has bigger impact the longer the game goes, 1 v 1 wont show how strong it is mid and late game.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    tank3487 said:


    Well you know what VC have better than any other faction in the game? healing, 11 sources of healing to be exact, best air in the game... i can go on but it just becaomes me stating the obvious.

    They do have shared healing cap. Most of those heals are useless due to this issue. How many times you see hunger on Vampire hero? Or most of Strigoi heal abilities? Or Isabella?

    HE have most cost effective air to be fair.
    Yes they have shared healing cap...so do chaos and dwarfs....
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    TeNoSkill said:

    TeNoSkill said:

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?
    Black Knights barding i think are fine because i did testing comparing with silver helms and reiksguard and they perfrom very well, their issue is not that they are a bad unit its rather that non barded and blood knights are superb units, there was a change though that i missed with barded ones which doesnt make sense to me, why do they drop -2ma and -8md over normal black knights.

    Maybe a better change should be,

    Black Knights -1 MA, -3MD

    Black Knights Lance and Barding +1MA +5md

    This would be a nerf to normal ones and buff to lance version.



    Black Knights (barding) are shock cav, which means they already have lower stats (relying on their Cb do hit) and they are undead; And THAT means they have 2x lower stats.
    The melee stats should be different, otherwise Black Knights (700g) should be renamed and reskined because having just an entirely inferior version of a unit is boring.

    And I don t see it as a effective solution to have BKnormal and Blood Knights brought down to the lvl of BKBarding instead of just improving BKBarding to have a role like with 8 BvsI.

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?

    I think Vargheists are fine, i seen korean top players use them all the time to great effect, agreed that the ROR is crap though perhaps give the ROR hunger?

    The pls link to me videos or streams or describe how they made them work!

    RoR the easiest solution would be regen or more hp then the normal version and a missle resistance

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?


    Coorps carts, i think the normal one is really good at 250g, its freaking slow though, but buffing its speed is hard to justify unless all zombie speed gets buffed, perhaps zombies (all factions) can get +2 speed including corps cart, its not a big buff but its something.

    I'm not against it having encourage also.

    The other two would be justified with -100g.

    The basic cart provides the same buff as "my will be done", but the latter costs only 160g and is much more mobile with the character.
    And with the "adjustment" to Nehek it is now less favourable to buff your frontline/blob with it/ take the risk of it (cart) getting destroyed early on and that was the ONLY way you can use it thanks to its abysmal speed.

    +2 speed won t address the problem here coz it will still slow your infantry down, making it a better target.
    Again I propose the addition of an ability, that grants physical resistance up to a certain threashhold (like 40-60%) based on the number of models in the AoE.
    That shoul be achieveable easy enough while still being suceptable to vortexes and magic missles.


    Nah they get barding so same principal should be applied as to charecters horse with and without barding, - speed + armour, the fact they get a lance is justified with more charge bonus, there is absolutely no other co relation between MA and MD, they had exactly same WS in table top also.

    Black Knights lances simply dotn deserve +8 bonus v Infantry is as simple as that, the fact they dotn break is big plus they cause fear already, like i said they trade cost efficiently with silver helms and reiksguard...what more do you want of them?

    (1)This is not the TT tho and shock cav MUST have lower melee stats than melee cav, otherwise what difference would there be?
    BKBarding pay twice for beeing shock cav and undead and ,yes they do trade cost efficiently vs Reiksguard and Silverhelms, but they do lack a distinct role and a bonus vs Infantry wouldn t interfere with their performances vs other unittypes.

    As I said, BK without Barding are better as throwaway-backlinedisturber.
    Blood Knights are better at everything and dedicated anti large.

    Black Knights are in between


    TeNoSkill said:

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?
    Black Knights barding i think are fine because i did testing comparing with silver helms and reiksguard and they perfrom very well, their issue is not that they are a bad unit its rather that non barded and blood knights are superb units, there was a change though that i missed with barded ones which doesnt make sense to me, why do they drop -2ma and -8md over normal black knights.

    Maybe a better change should be,

    Black Knights -1 MA, -3MD

    Black Knights Lance and Barding +1MA +5md

    This would be a nerf to normal ones and buff to lance version.



    Black Knights (barding) are shock cav, which means they already have lower stats (relying on their Cb do hit) and they are undead; And THAT means they have 2x lower stats.
    The melee stats should be different, otherwise Black Knights (700g) should be renamed and reskined because having just an entirely inferior version of a unit is boring.

    And I don t see it as a effective solution to have BKnormal and Blood Knights brought down to the lvl of BKBarding instead of just improving BKBarding to have a role like with 8 BvsI.

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?

    I think Vargheists are fine, i seen korean top players use them all the time to great effect, agreed that the ROR is crap though perhaps give the ROR hunger?

    The pls link to me videos or streams or describe how they made them work!

    RoR the easiest solution would be regen or more hp then the normal version and a missle resistance

    TeNoSkill said:

    Then pls elaborate why you think so!





    VC are not in a bad spot as people thing, they just harder to use than before because blob in one spot does not work, overall they still a strong faction.

    There are a few units that could use help though.

    Buff

    Vampire Heroes - I think could simply just use more HP to be viable something like +400

    Dire Wolves -50g

    ALL ethereal gain immune to vigour;
    Banshee +50g

    Crypt Horrors +10 armour



    Nerf

    Black Knights (naked) +25g

    I think a hero shouldn t have as much hp as a lord, that washes away the difference.

    Direwolves ok.

    How precisely would Immune to vigour help ethereals, if they cannot bring on the damage (which is very important since many opponents go for nuking the VC)?

    Buff to crypt horrors, ok why not?

    Nerf to black knights normal ok?


    So what about Vargheists, carts and Black knights barding?

    Why do you (seemingly) think they are fine?

    And what with my propositions on Lore of Vampires?


    Coorps carts, i think the normal one is really good at 250g, its freaking slow though, but buffing its speed is hard to justify unless all zombie speed gets buffed, perhaps zombies (all factions) can get +2 speed including corps cart, its not a big buff but its something.

    I'm not against it having encourage also.

    The other two would be justified with -100g.

    The basic cart provides the same buff as "my will be done", but the latter costs only 160g and is much more mobile with the character.
    And with the "adjustment" to Nehek it is now less favourable to buff your frontline/blob with it/ take the risk of it (cart) getting destroyed early on and that was the ONLY way you can use it thanks to its abysmal speed.

    +2 speed won t address the problem here coz it will still slow your infantry down, making it a better target.
    Again I propose the addition of an ability, that grants physical resistance up to a certain threashhold (like 40-60%) based on the number of models in the AoE.
    That shoul be achieveable easy enough while still being suceptable to vortexes and magic missles.



    Thats not exactly true, because to take my will be done you need to spend 1000g plus on a charecter, you're comparing a unit to an ability which i find silly, does that mean grail relique should be -300g also because it can be compared to some other ability in game...?

    +2 speed wont solve the problem but i dont think there is any problem with the cart, it cost 250g that takes a while to kill and provides a big boost to the VC untis stats, its like a 20%+ stat boos in most cases, think of it differantly, how much would it cost to rank 3 of your units to rank 5? thats pretty much almost what you get from it.

    I absolutely disagree normal cart needs buffs of any kind, the other two i agree need cost reduction.
    Ok, my comparison might have been bad.
    And yes, while it may seem good on paper it has the following things to struggle with;

    VC infantry usually doesn t decide battles and even with this stat buff they are worse then most low-mid units.
    And that is if it makes it into combat or persists for the battle.
    I dont agree, i think VC infantry plays a major role in most battles, monsters are the key for VC but if not taken care of their infantry allowed the monsters to perform.

    Just to clarify im not agianst VC buffs as you can see just i dont agree with some of those suggestion, i pretty much always take 1 or 2 corps carts so i feel they are superb.

    On black knights, they dont lack a role at all, the lance ones just get outshine by blood knights in same role and this will always be the case, very much like it is the case for DP and silver helms, the 700g ones are nuts currently though.


    You're trying to buff a decent unit because the alternative is really good (blood knights), im not saying nerf blood knights which they probably deserve, but if you want lances to contest with blood knights they need to be made too strong which im against (with excpetion of making their ma and md meeting in the middle, i dont understand either i suggested +1MA and +5MD and you think thats not enough? Thats a ridiculous buff, while a lower nerf to the 700g ones who are really good, of -1MA and -3md, it would make all 3 VC knight variants viable picks/
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