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Question, Should CA provide 'normal' regular army based unit stacks?

Aventus_MaximusAventus_Maximus Posts: 230Registered Users
A question i wondered about after facing a horde of shades.
Should CA provide normal army templates which they force upon the A.I. leaving superstacks and newbie armies to the humans in control
Or are these the pefetic words of someone who can't win against forementioned stacks?
Are formations that incorporate the use of 10 highest tier units from a total number of 20, which means 50% of the stack consists out of the highest tiers available or is the a.i. mechanismes in use by CA and SEGA just not good enough to provide a challenge if they choose for normal sized armies ( which in 20 units should only allow for 2 highest tier units max )

A question unrelevant since fans provide all the mods a player could wish for or a sign of decency provided by the company stating "if you want to go psycho on everything design your own mods we don't take any responsibility! "

opinions...

if you dare 😋





Male Parta Male Dilabuntur – ‘What has been wrongly gained is wrongly lost.’
Fiat Lux – ‘Let there be light.’
Alea Jacta Est – ‘The die is cast.’

Comments

  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Posts: 829Registered Users
    I don't mind the fact that AI uses only elite units in the late game, however I do mind when the AI spams the exact same unit over and over, especially if it's a single entity.

    So, if the AI was forced to use some builds like "30% infantry, 20% ranged, 20% cav and remaining 30% heroes and single entities" I would be okay, no matter the tier of said units. If the AI built armies like "100% tier 2 single entity monsters", then I wouldn't find it fun to play against.
  • dreagondreagon Senior Member Posts: 1,910Registered Users
    Only if it's in more general terms like Aram said. It shouldn't be to narrow because facing the same armies all the time would be boring. It also shouldn't be forced on the AI in case they lack the ability to recruit certain types of units. In those cases they still should be able to bring a full stack of whatever it is they can recruit.
    "The dog is a peasant and the cat is a gentleman." H.P. Lovecraft
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 9,879Registered Users

    I don't mind the fact that AI uses only elite units in the late game, however I do mind when the AI spams the exact same unit over and over, especially if it's a single entity.

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  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Posts: 2,376Registered Users
    edited November 10
    There are armies, were a limited roster makes sense. Best example in game#2 are the Savage Orc factions. They just use Savage Orc stuff (at least I have never seen anything else there) and that is kinda fine since it is what they symbolize. Of course that will be their downfall later when they can't keep up against better Tier units of their neighbors, which might be a shame but they are supposed to make way for the real players anyway so I don't mind. Who knows how they will behave after the greenskin rework anyway ^^

    Then we have the rather "normal" factions who use odd to imba stacks. This was one Lothern army lately

    and I found the composition pretty bad. Especially for a powerplayer on the worldmap who already had confederated most other Elves and conquered half of Naggaroth in addition to their care-free Ulthuan.
    I am also no fan of "monster" stacks



    and yeah, sometimes to prevent this I would wish there were some template restrictions for the AI around which might make armies look more "normal".
    I still dread the DoC arrival, regarding Khorne armies consisting of 10 Bloodthirsters and 10 Skullcannons. But Tomb Kings on the other hand had a bunch of restrictions. Maybe future races might also get something similiar.

    ------Red Dox
    Post edited by Red_Dox on
  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Posts: 1,569Registered Users
    Absolutely. It's in Warhammer's DNA to balance armies between core, rare and special units.

    I wouldn't want it implemented slavishly, but it would be nice to set some basic guidelines/tendencies for the AI.
  • Aventus_MaximusAventus_Maximus Posts: 230Registered Users
    Yea i rather see the a.i. moving with 2 armies then one monster stack.
    My last game was on hard difficulty and there i would say that CA lost control over their a.i. armies.
    outside a couple of armies that i saw most followed the 'I am Monster guideline' ( 1 unit x 15 and some heroes and another monster unit )
    With the shades army as absolute terror example since i could not autoresolve ( with the meter 90% in the favor of the shades ) while i massacred them quite easily, only took 40 minutes chasing those damned shades. With all my infantry chasing behind shade units to prevent them from shooting, 2 heroes teamed up with scorpions so the hero could catch a unit and a scorpion could destroy it … anyways… i'm not sharing any details but cmon
    19 freaking years and this is what you can come up with.

    Alith Anar as superman so they can ensure the high elves have the start like they should since they are so op but only in the stories, not in a balanced wargame

    and all the other baddies ( orcs managed to survive btw in my last game right up untill turn 180 ) are destroyed bfore you can blink with your eyes

    I guess from a young men perspective this is still a nice game but i also find that with a young crowd as main audience there should be more diligence in the offering CA presents us with

    1 million copies of 3k sold in the first wkend with Rome II and both warhammer games selling good to and what do we have now

    a couple of games with **** engines and halfway unfinished campaign format





    Male Parta Male Dilabuntur – ‘What has been wrongly gained is wrongly lost.’
    Fiat Lux – ‘Let there be light.’
    Alea Jacta Est – ‘The die is cast.’
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,221Registered Users
    The AI can only recruit what they can recruit at the settlement; if they can only recruit Shades, it makes sense they get Shades because they'd have to wait or sacrifice slots to build something else, both taking time and resources whereas the enemy pummels them if they just sat there waiting for an opportunity to make varied stacks.

    Plus, what with how varied your own armies can be and what the game spawns, the AI for conventional factions have little leg room to operate.

    Elite armies solve this problem, but then it becomes boring facing down dragons and monsters. But as far as the AI is concerned, having some units as Swordmasters or Spear infantry is a stupid idea since the enemy has Thunderers or Cannons.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • WorriedGryphonWorriedGryphon Posts: 5Registered Users
    I never really considered that the AI recruits impractical/ridiculous compositions due to only trying to recruit in the one province they're at, as they probably don't have the intelligence to recruit on multiple regions. This would explain at least that first HE build Red_Dox posted which probably came from a region with only that recruitment building allowing white lions and eagles.

    On that particular problem, what do people think on the AI having a sort of global recruitment even for their local one?

    I.e. They use up their local recruitment slots as normal but can instead can recruit any unit which is unlocked by a building in their faction.

    Personally I wouldn't really mind this slight advantage, of just a few turns moving around, if it would mean getting to go up against more balanced armies.

    With the templates/percentages for army compositions, I personally think templates themselves would be a little too limiting and might cause problems when they lose access to their Cav recruiting building or similar situations. But maybe flexible percentages could be a step in the right direction?

    Either way I definitely think there should be a hard cap on single entity monsters as 1) they're no fun to fight against 2) how on earth are the vampire counts, or any faction for that matter, supposed to take an army comprised of 13 star dragons!!!!
  • SakuraHeinzSakuraHeinz Junior Member Posts: 2,164Registered Users
    It should be noted, if you defeat one of those armies the AI recruits a new Doomstack but this time its the exact counter to your army.


    If you are undead for example, they lose their stack and come back with a army full of sisters phoenixguard and firephoenixes
  • Aventus_MaximusAventus_Maximus Posts: 230Registered Users
    @SakuraHeinz I understand the challenge presented and the self learning algorithmes behind the play, or at least i fanthom to have some kind of notion. To its more to the point that the way the a.i. is instructed to retort.
    It is such basic thinking, and especially in Mortal Empires where the limit is understandeable since every new army is yet a bigger drain on your incom

    @WorriedGryphon it does sound like a good idea though versatility is really not the problem. More the focus on power and the way it expects of the player to behave if he wants to have a chance at winning.
    In a sense Total War, adn certainly realtime is not really different from any rts where you either need to rely on muscle memory and or fast witted personal skill to have some kind of strategic adventure





    Male Parta Male Dilabuntur – ‘What has been wrongly gained is wrongly lost.’
    Fiat Lux – ‘Let there be light.’
    Alea Jacta Est – ‘The die is cast.’
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,622Registered Users

    It should be noted, if you defeat one of those armies the AI recruits a new Doomstack but this time its the exact counter to your army.


    If you are undead for example, they lose their stack and come back with a army full of sisters phoenixguard and firephoenixes

    It's more likely that's just the best units they had at hand. I created specific builds to deal with certain types of doomstack and the AI kept throwing them at me without change nonetheless.

  • Aventus_MaximusAventus_Maximus Posts: 230Registered Users
    daelin4 said:

    The AI can only recruit what they can recruit at the settlement; if they can only recruit Shades, it makes sense they get Shades because they'd have to wait or sacrifice slots to build something else, both taking time and resources whereas the enemy pummels them if they just sat there waiting for an opportunity to make varied stacks.

    Plus, what with how varied your own armies can be and what the game spawns, the AI for conventional factions have little leg room to operate.

    Elite armies solve this problem, but then it becomes boring facing down dragons and monsters. But as far as the AI is concerned, having some units as Swordmasters or Spear infantry is a stupid idea since the enemy has Thunderers or Cannons.

    In case of the shades, i can say that you are pretty much right since Naggarond was reduced to a two province country at that time.

    The theory how swordmasters and speamen are useless in the a.i.'s eyes against thunderers or cannons is a bit weird, last game for example the dwarfs where almost extinct ;)

    ( shades…. and how easily 2 usthabi bow units can decimate the enemy commander )






    Male Parta Male Dilabuntur – ‘What has been wrongly gained is wrongly lost.’
    Fiat Lux – ‘Let there be light.’
    Alea Jacta Est – ‘The die is cast.’
  • Aventus_MaximusAventus_Maximus Posts: 230Registered Users
    Anyways…..

    I would like to thank all contributors to this discussion,
    This particular subject is to me of significant importance. The answers and reasonings supplied grant enough merit to my own thought trains to keep pursuing this topic in a more different way.
    Searching out other developers for example or other means of trying to get this particular topic through right up to investigating mods for my own needs

    Thank you and good night







    Male Parta Male Dilabuntur – ‘What has been wrongly gained is wrongly lost.’
    Fiat Lux – ‘Let there be light.’
    Alea Jacta Est – ‘The die is cast.’
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