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"No DLC for DLC" Clarity

RiskafishRiskafish Registered Users Posts: 521
edited November 2019 in General Discussion
Hey guys, been a while and thought I would discuss my opinion on the No DLC for DLC statement by CA and calirfy some misunderstandings I have seen.

Standalone lord packs are not DLC for DLC
The Empire is a WH1 faction and yet the Hunter and the Beast does not require the original source of those units (WH1) to play this content). The Markus Wulfhart campaign uses the Empire units but uses different lord and campaign mechanics compared to the Empires initial inclusion. That means in order to get the initial lords, starting positions and reworked main mechanics, you need the original content BUT can experience the race without this.

This means that standalone lord packs are already a thing and that DLC lords that DO NOT require the original content are not DLC for DLC. Therefore adding a Wood Elf or Beastmen lord that uses the same units but with different mechanics and a new lord would be no different than Wulfhart inclusion, a standalone DLC. There is also still a incentive to purchase the original DLC for the extra lords, the multiplayer lords (Boris+Red Duke) and the two unique campaigns which are actually the best way to experience the two races.

Markus, old world lord, is classed purely as WH2 DLC
Festag has been confirmed to be WH2 however this does not rule out the inclusion of old world races. The reason is that Markus, while being from a WH1 race is officially classed as a Warhammer 2 DLC. Therefore any lord from a WH1 race added as a standalone into Warhammer 2 is classed by CA as Warhammer 2 DLC. This means that an old world vs new world is VERY possible.

Standalone DLCs are necessary
Warriors of Chaos, Norsica ( Created from Warriors of Chaos) and Beastmen are all races that are not only short on lords but have enough 8th edition units for a lord pack. It is also a way to fund any major changes to these races. Reworks cost money for CA and I believe The Hunter and the Beast was created both to fund the rework and upsell WH1 for the rest of the Empire lords.

Summary
Thank you very much for reading and I hope I added clarity with the No DLC for DLC "rule" and why it is not as limiting as it is often made out to be.

Edited: There was a small comment about Festag but it was dragging the thread way off topic from the DLC for DLC which was the main theme of the thread.






Post edited by Riskafish on
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Comments

  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 175
    In that case its gonna be brettonia or beastmen vs dark elves


    Highly unlikely
  • RiskafishRiskafish Registered Users Posts: 521
    @BjornNorlinder
    Beastmen have a significant presence around Naggrond so could be :D.
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Registered Users Posts: 175
    Riskafish said:

    @BjornNorlinder
    Beastmen have a significant presence around Naggrond so could be :D.

    I'd still prefer two major races involved. That's why beastmen wont get DLC fofor quite some time imo. Ppl will buy things on elves, lizard or rats but not imo beastmen
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 3,570
    CA already said the Festag DLC would not be a crossover DLC and would be limited to WH2 races.
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 6,456
    The problem here is that the Hunter and the Beast LP doesn’t make WH1 obsolete. A BM or WE LP Would make the original Race pack obsolete and worthless.

    Why should I still buy Realm of the Wood Elves for 19€, if I can get an updated version of them + new stuff for another race for only 9€?

    CA won’t kill their old game 1 race packs.
  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 4,532

    CA already said the Festag DLC would not be a crossover DLC and would be limited to WH2 races.

    Besides I really think a Chaos DLC without a rework would never happen. Oh and it's Norsca and not Norsica.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 3,570
    ArneSo said:

    The problem here is that the Hunter and the Beast LP doesn’t make WH1 obsolete. A BM or WE LP Would make the original Race pack obsolete and worthless.

    Why should I still buy Realm of the Wood Elves for 19€, if I can get an updated version of them + new stuff for another race for only 9€?

    CA won’t kill their old game 1 race packs.

    Yeah,m about the only thing you wouldn't have access to are Orion, Durthu, the mini-campaign, and their old mechanics... but their old mechanics suck so that reduces the value of the original lord pack to how much you like Orion, Durthu, and that mini-campaign.

    Oh, and access to the Red Duke, I guess.
  • RiskafishRiskafish Registered Users Posts: 521
    edited November 2019
    @Draculasaurus
    I have seen a CA statement that said it was WH2 lord pack but personally haven't seen a official statement saying its 2 Warhammer 2 "RACES". I have seen people on the forum say this but CA's statements get "warped" on the forums like Chinese whispers so should be taken with a pinch of salt.

    This is important because Markus Wulfhart is a Warhammer 2 lord despite being from a WH1 race and I can only act on the official statements of CA that I have seen first hand xD.

    If they have made that statement, then we could still see some TK or VCoast action as we known that the TK have actually had a expedition to Norsica/Albion. I think we can all agree the NE of the Vortex needs more enemy variety instead of HE,HE,HE xD.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 3,570
    Riskafish said:

    @Draculasaurus
    I have seen a CA statement that said it was WH2 lord pack but personally haven't seen a official statement saying its 2 Warhammer 2 "RACES". I have seen people on the forum say this but CA's statements get "warped" on the forums like Chinese whispers so should be taken with a pinch of salt.

    This is important because Markus Wulfhart is a Warhammer 2 lord despite being from a WH1 race and I can only act on the official statements of CA that I have seen first hand xD.

    If they have made that statement, then we could still see some TK or VCoast action as we known that the TK have actually had a expedition to Norsica/Albion. I think we can all agree the NE of the Vortex needs more enemy variety instead of HE,HE,HE xD.

    Why do you always say Norsica instead of Norsca?
  • RiskafishRiskafish Registered Users Posts: 521
    @Draculasaurus It just sounds more natural to say so I have gotten into a bad habit xD.
  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Registered Users Posts: 2,185
    A beastman starting position in Naggaroth would be loreful and fun. Well, as fun as beastmen can be without a massive overhaul.
  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 4,532
    Riskafish said:

    @Draculasaurus
    I have seen a CA statement that said it was WH2 lord pack but personally haven't seen a official statement saying its 2 Warhammer 2 "RACES". I have seen people on the forum say this but CA's statements get "warped" on the forums like Chinese whispers so should be taken with a pinch of salt.

    This is important because Markus Wulfhart is a Warhammer 2 lord despite being from a WH1 race and I can only act on the official statements of CA that I have seen first hand xD.

    If they have made that statement, then we could still see some TK or VCoast action as we known that the TK have actually had a expedition to Norsica/Albion. I think we can all agree the NE of the Vortex needs more enemy variety instead of HE,HE,HE xD.

    Next DLC is no crossgame, period. So it's only going to be WH2 factions lords.
  • RiskafishRiskafish Registered Users Posts: 521
    @ArneSo

    What you get from WE/BM Race Pack?
    1. Lords and OLD WORLD starting positions - Khazak, Malegor, Morghur, Durthu, Orion
    2. Free multiplayer lords + maybe campaign lords later - Boris Todbringer, The Red Duke
    3. Future FLC lords for the race
    4. Two brilliant campaigns that are the best way to play the factions
    5. Race pack likely to get campaign rework later on
    Most people who complain about the value of the packs haven't played the mini-campaigns which are actually brilliant and allow to experience the faction how it is meant to be played. Mortal Empires ruins a lot of factions like this. Nakai for example has a pretty good vortex campaign with some narrative to keep you going but in ME he isn't able to afford a decent army as fast, has long travel times between cities and is separate form allies who he can team up with.

    If they add campaigns for Boris and The Red Duke then these DLC's will get even more value.
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,245
    Hunter & Beast is core race VS core race crossover.

    and as we see with all the DLC so far, it always adds to core races. We have not a single DLC so far who adds stuff for a true DLC race.

    We also will probably not get a DLC for DLC during the game#2 lifecycle because

    there are currently no plans. And everyone should already have understood that this situation will not change in a few months. CA has some longterm planning for their DLCs around. As already was hinted at during the Hunter & Beast AMA when looking back to the Prophet & Warlock outcry

    so whatever will come now and with the greenskins, was not just cooked up a month ago because they felt groovey on a weekend.

    So we have two DLCs for sure in the pipeline. The rival DLC this/next month, and the crossover DLC with the greenskin rework 2020. Even if there would be more DLC in the line because game#3 is stalled until 2021, the chances of "DLC for DLC" are not good. I kinda see this relativation on their part also as a first step for game#3, where we actually might see DLC for the DLC [Buy now a Khorne DLC for only 8€. Or the Nurgle, Tzeentch, Slaanesh or Malal DLCs also 8€ each, to upgrade your already bought Warriors of Chaos DLC from game#1].


    And now we go to the upcoming Festtag DLC, for actual real clarity with what we know from those facts.

    -It will not be a crossover DLC, so no game#1 races. At all.
    -It will not be DLC for DLC. So no Tomb Kings or Vampire Coast either. Everyone should accept that the upcoming DLC will center on two of the four core races from game#2.
    -And with a high probability we can cross off Lizards from that list, since they had now already two DLCs in a row.
    -And for the accompanying FLC LL it was said "No Skaven

    so while Skaven can be in the DLC itself, they surely will not get a second LL on the side.

    ------Red Dox
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 6,456
    @Riskafish
    You are partly right but let’s assume we get a BM vs WE LP:
    - price: 9€
    - 1 WE faction
    - 1 BM faction
    - New better mechanics for both factions
    - 3-5 new units for each race
    - New Lord/Hero options

    The BM and WE race packs would still give you:
    - 2 mini campaigns that most people never liked
    - 2 WE LL starting just next to each other
    - 3 BM LLs
    - Boring outdated mechanics for WE
    - Boring super outdated mechanics for BM
    - Red Duke only for MP
    - Boris only for MB
    - PRICE: 40€!!!

    40€ for more or less the same stuff you can get for 9€.

    So when I need to decide between getting both races with better mechanics and more units but less LLs for 9€, or both races with worse mechanics, less units but more LL for 40€ I would go for the cheaper one.

    Why should I spend 40€ when I get more for 9€?

    I have all DLCs and I also would of course buy a DLC for DLC. But it simply makes no sense for CA to kill their old DlCs like that when they still sell good.
  • goliath55goliath55 Registered Users Posts: 712
    Its not gonna have any game 1 races ; your comprehension of their statements is flawed
  • FungusHoundFungusHound Registered Users Posts: 2,548
    ArneSo said:

    The problem here is that the Hunter and the Beast LP doesn’t make WH1 obsolete. A BM or WE LP Would make the original Race pack obsolete and worthless.

    Why should I still buy Realm of the Wood Elves for 19€, if I can get an updated version of them + new stuff for another race for only 9€?

    CA won’t kill their old game 1 race packs.

    Well at least until a ways into Game 3 post-release. If they support the game like Rome 2 then we might see DLC vs DLC at some point.
  • TimpeyoTimpeyo Registered Users Posts: 1,250
    Hopefully CA will be generous and give us some lovely Flc LLs with WE and BM update and a few free BM units.

    I had an odd idea if we get DE Rakarth as a LL with a beast theme they could give DEs a jabberslyth as one of the units that way it wouldn't be a problem for BM to get it for free moved to there army as well




  • FungusHoundFungusHound Registered Users Posts: 2,548
    Timpeyo said:

    Hopefully CA will be generous and give us some lovely Flc LLs with WE and BM update and a few free BM units.

    I had an odd idea if we get DE Rakarth as a LL with a beast theme they could give DEs a jabberslyth as one of the units that way it wouldn't be a problem for BM to get it for free moved to there army as well

    I don't know about just giving all the DE's Jabberslythes. Maybe justify it as part of Rakarth(if he gets in) campaign mechanics where he can tame monsters from most other factions.
  • RiskafishRiskafish Registered Users Posts: 521
    edited November 2019
    @Red_Dox

    The main point is that lord packs are not DLC for DLC if they are standalone like Markus Wulfhart.

    He is a purely Warhammer 2 lord that requires nothing but the WH2 base game to play despite Empire being a WH1 faction. This classes him as a standalone DLC because he has no requirements outside of the base game of WH2.

    If another faction like the Tomb Kings received a lord in a lord pack that did not require the original race (like Markus Wulfhart not requiring the WH1 for the Empire) then it isn't DLC for DLC because it has no requirements other than the base game of WH2.

    DLC for DLC means it has to require another DLC to function which as seen with Markus Wulfhart is solved by making him standalone and can be used for almost any other lord from any race including Beastmen and Wood Elves.







  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 6,456
    I‘m pretty sure DLC for DLC means more content for a Race that is DLC.
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,245
    Riskafish said:

    @Red_Dox

    The main point is that lord packs are not DLC for DLC if they are standalone like Markus Wulfhart.

    He is a purely Warhammer 2 lord that requires nothing but the WH2 base game to play despite Empire being a WH1 faction. This classes him as a standalone DLC because he has no requirements outside of the base game of WH2.

    If another faction like the Tomb Kings received a lord in a lord pack that did not require the original race (like Markus Wulfhart not requiring the WH1 for the Empire) then it isn't DLC for DLC because it has no requirements other than the base game of WH2.








    Wulfhart is still DLC for a core race. Wulfhart might work "standalone" for Vortex, which is fine, but he offers new units to Multiplayer and Mortal Empires. So a Tomb Kings DLC in the Dark Lands, which would add new units for Immortal Empire and Multiplayer, is still DLC for DLC.

    ------Red Dox
  • RiskafishRiskafish Registered Users Posts: 521
    @ArneSo

    I think it means DLC that REQUIRES another DLC to function. The main issue seems to be people worried about paying for something only to find out they are required to purchase additional content to actually play it. Essentially paying twice for something. If the lord pack is standalone like Wulfhart, then its not a issue in the slightest.

    A slightly different example is Mortal Empires. A lot of people bought WH2 to play it only realising after that you need WH1 aswell. A lot of issues were caused by this at the time as it looked like they had to pay twice for something that they believed they had already paid for.

    Standalones give an element of security as you know you will be able to play the lord pack without the hidden cost of requiring another DLC that essentially requires you to pay twice..



  • RiskafishRiskafish Registered Users Posts: 521
    @Red_Dox

    Wulfhart does not REQUIRE any of other content other than WH2 base game which is why he was standalone. DLC for DLC means that content REQUIRES other DLC content outside the base game in order to play.

    For example, if a Beastmen lord pack required "Call of the Beastmen" then it would be DLC for DLC. This is because the lord pack (DLC) requires "COTB" (DLC) to work. DLC for DLC.

    If the same lord pack DOES NOT require "COTB" then its just DLC for the game. This is because it does not require a second DLC to work. The requirements for DLC for DLC is that two DLCs have to be involved in the procedure xD.


  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,645

    CA already said the Festag DLC would not be a crossover DLC and would be limited to WH2 races.

    Thread is at best misinformed.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • RiskafishRiskafish Registered Users Posts: 521
    @Tennisgolfboll

    Festag comments are only about 10% of the thread as the main point of the thread is clarification of the No DLC for DLC rule.
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,245
    Riskafish said:

    @Red_Dox

    Wulfhart does not REQUIRE any of other content other than WH2 base game which is why he was standalone. DLC for DLC means that content REQUIRES other DLC content outside the base game in order to play.

    And now, we leave the safety zone and actually step ahead into the Unknown.
    We have only bought game#2 and game#3. And the newest game#3 DLC is a crossover which features Beastmen, bringing Taurox with a Doombull, a Ghorgon, a Jabbawookie and something else to the table. Since we own game#3 we and can play Tauroxs campaign there without problem. But that is just one part of the game.
    • What about Immortal Empire consisting of game#2+game#3? Anyone else seeing a problem with the map itself if there is some kind iof "Old World" hole in the middle?
    • But lets ignore the map since that is another topic problem. Will I be able to play on that mysterious map actually with Taurox? I do not own the Beastmen DLC, just Taurox. Will it work? We have no way to know how that works because so far we have a CORE RACE which is automatically needed to unlock Mortal Empire as a example.
    • How about Multiplayer? Anyone actually around who only owns game#2 and Wulfhart, who has looked if he can use the complete Empire in MP? And would Grim & Grave stuff like the RoR be actually available for Wulfhart?
    • So back to Immortal Empire Beastmen: I don't own Beastmen, just Taurox. Does Taurox get the free Anniversary RoR? I would assume they are tied to the actual Beastmen DLC.
    • Lets change the setting and assume I am someone who owns everything, except the newest DLC. I want to play Multiplayer or Immortal Empire with the full Beastmen unit roster ----> But without the Taurox DLC, I miss integral units of the armybook which people complained years about now. So to complete that and play with good old Malagor, I have to buy the Taurox DLC. Which again, is the definition of DLC for DLC.

    Even when we would say that your argumentation is 50% spot on, then you are still missing the other 50%. So even when your "campaign standalone" theory holds some truth, you deliberatly ignore the implications for the rest of the game and there for the simple fact that in the end it will be DLC for DLC.

    The Wulfhart example also gets tricky when rather talking game#2 and game#3, but not game#1. I should be able to play Wulfhart on Immortal Empire then (however the maps look without the Old World), since I paid for the DLC. But I miss Grim & Grave (Units+RoR) and the whole core Empire. From that perspective, to complete everything for Multiplayer/Immortal Empire, I need to buy game#1 (because without the basegame you usually can't buy DLC) and then Grim & Grave. We could argue now if that means it is DLC for DLC or just a core race getting mutliple DLCs and we had to buy "core" stuff to complete, but either way I have to buy all three things to get the real deal. So the "I have everything to play around" argument might even not be that valid for Wulfhart in the long run.

    ------Red Dox
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 19,221
    CA very clearly said that Festag is for game 2 races only.
    Malakai is the best choice for a Dwarf LP. Give us Slayer lords so we may form a Slayer host and revel in our destruction!
  • IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 1,030

    CA already said the Festag DLC would not be a crossover DLC and would be limited to WH2 races.

    Is the Empire a WH2 race now? Another Empire faction would be DLC for DLC?
    Justice and CONFEDERATION for the Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast!
  • Bonutz619Bonutz619 Registered Users Posts: 1,993
    edited November 2019
    Riskafish said:

    Hey guys, been a while and thought I would discuss my opinion on the No DLC for DLC statement by CA and calirfy some misunderstandings I have seen.


    Markus, old world lord, is classed purely as WH2 DLC
    Festag has been confirmed to be WH2 however this does not rule out the inclusion of old world races. The reason is that Markus, while being from a WH1 race is officially classed as a Warhammer 2 DLC. Therefore any lord from a WH1 race added as a standalone into Warhammer 2 is classed by CA as Warhammer 2 DLC. This means that an old world vs new world is VERY possible.


    Lol. This is really reaching to be honest. CA doesn't play mental gymnastics with their statements. When they say the Festag LP will not be crossover, that's exactly what it means. No game 1 races included regardless if it's a DLC for Game 2.

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