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Improving the Tomb Kings' Sneaky Snakes

GimblestumpGimblestump Posts: 35Registered Users
The Tomb King are probably the most balanced undead faction in the game thanks to their unit and lord variety. They're in a solid spot right now, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. However, the Asaph units of the roster still suffer from either being outclassed by other units (Necropolis Knights, Khalida) or just being really, really bad (Sepulchral Stalkers).
So after looking over it, here are a group of changes I feel will help Snek units in their assigned roles without making them too powerful.

1. Necropolis Knights
Necropolis Knights (aka Necroknights) have had a long standing problem of being outclassed by Nehekhara Horsemen. The Horsemen are fast, hit hard for their price, and do a better job of giving map control. In their current state, the Knights are just too slow and clunky to provide true control, and so are usually used purely for backline defense if they are ever brought in the first place. The buffs I have in mind would help the Necroknights keep up with the other cavalry and fast movers in their roster.

- +4 speed for all variants (including Khalida's Snek mount)
- Give a higher turn speed

(As a side note, there is something funky with Necroknight charges and I don't know what it is. Maybe someone can tell me in the comments, but seeing a fix to their "half charges" would be nice, if it's even possible)

2. Khalida
The Snek Worshipper is a pretty good lord if we look at her by herself, but it's just that every other TK lord is so much better. These proposed changes are designed to help her capitalize on her missile passive, as well as making her a cheaper option as a dueling lord.

- -50 gold for the Necroserpent mount
- Increase the range of Blessing of Asaph (the ranged buff passive) from 40 meters to 60 meters.


3. Sepulchral Stalkers
I obsessed over this one for a while because these guys are in a weird spot. Lying between Tomb Guard and Necrosphinxes as anti large specialists, they should fulfill the role of sustainable defender without stepping onto the Ushabtis' toes. In practice, they often get dragged down by a basic unit of swordsmen while their missiles fly off a hundred meters off target.
So after some testing, I believe the way to fix them is to:
1. Increase their sustainability.
2. Give them some fun traits befitting of their titles so they can get the jump on unwary attackers.
And this can be done by:

- Add "Stalk" to the normal variant. Give the RoR Eyes of the Desert "Unspottable" to make them unique from the regular version (and extra sneaky)
- Add more accuracy and less spread to their missiles
- +400 health
- +10 armor
- +5 LD

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's about it. I don't think these changes would cause a great shift of TK play towards pure snake builds, but they would influence players to at least give these units a shot more often. And hey, more boopable snoot snake builds sound pretty good to me.

Comments

  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,517Registered Users
    They should just actually add an Entomb Mechanic for the Tomb Kings... Bonus it could be used for Miners with Steam Drills/Skaven with Warpgrinders
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,907Registered Users
    Dont agree

    Necro knights are very comparable to demis and are fine

    Khalida is super tanky, i think her abilities could give ranged poison thats about it

    Stalkers are quite good actually they got charge defense vs large, they are a monster spear unit, they are very hard to ise but they dont need such buffs at all.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 367Registered Users
    Snakes are decidedly worse than demis. It's been a while since I tested it directly, but I think they lose to them 1v1 while also being far slower, more susceptible to missile damage and effectively being unable to cycle charge. Being unbreakable is much worse than routing to safety with superior speed. I would trade them for demis in a heartbeat, probably even cold ones. They definitely need a buff, all variants. As a first step I'd be content with fixing their projectiles (stalkers) and charges (necropolis). A significant increase in turning speed and acceleration is then probably enough without a stat buff to make them fairly priced in the roster as defenders rather than flanking knights. This will make them 'slither' much better. For snakes they currently look awfully clunky.

    Khalida should get the same mobility buffs, +4 speed and then she's fine on her snake I think. On foot she should get 50% AP and Dodge to be remotely competitive. Right now she's utter garbage on foot in literally every match-up. Her items also all suck. The missile buff should be replaced with Tehen's poison aura one, akin to on the table top.
  • MasariusMasarius Senior Member Posts: 698Registered Users

    Dont agree

    Necro knights are very comparable to demis and are fine

    Khalida is super tanky, i think her abilities could give ranged poison thats about it

    Stalkers are quite good actually they got charge defense vs large, they are a monster spear unit, they are very hard to ise but they dont need such buffs at all.

    I can't imagine being snakes on the same level as demis.

    Till shade is gone,
    till water is gone,
    into the Shadow with the teeth bared,
    screaming defiance with the last breath,
    to spit into Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Posts: 51Registered Users
    edited November 12
    Masarius said:

    Dont agree

    Necro knights are very comparable to demis and are fine

    Khalida is super tanky, i think her abilities could give ranged poison thats about it

    Stalkers are quite good actually they got charge defense vs large, they are a monster spear unit, they are very hard to ise but they dont need such buffs at all.

    I can't imagine being snakes on the same level as demis.

    Snakes disappear on a demi charge
  • ystyst Posts: 6,202Registered Users
    Far fewer models as well, its not a horrible unit per se, just not really competitive with what the roster has to offer.

    They r highly affected by necrotet yet that guy doesnt have a snake mount to synergise.
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  • MasariusMasarius Senior Member Posts: 698Registered Users
    yst said:

    Far fewer models as well, its not a horrible unit per se, just not really competitive with what the roster has to offer.

    They r highly affected by necrotet yet that guy doesnt have a snake mount to synergise.

    Odd, considering he should exactly be the one capable of riding those things with mastery.
    Till shade is gone,
    till water is gone,
    into the Shadow with the teeth bared,
    screaming defiance with the last breath,
    to spit into Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day
  • ystyst Posts: 6,202Registered Users
    ^ exactly, i mean hes given a chariot, like for what; none of those chariots r constructs. Why in the world would any1 use him on chariot either when u can chariot tomb prince built for combat.

    Necrotect with necro serpent would solve nec knights even when they r subpar vs the others of the same class.
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  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Posts: 594Registered Users
    Actually necro knights (halberds) trade very well with other cav. AL, AP, and frikkin poison. Show me other cav with this combo.

    If you're comparing with the best in class demis (halberds) you're doing it wrong. They can be routed from missile damage, magic or terror, and are more expensive in any case so shouldn't trade evenly.

    The reason NK don't get picked is excellent choices on TK roster. Go heavy on NK and you're giving up Ushabti bows, tomb scorps, or necro sphinx. Go heavy on demis and you're giving up state troops, state troops or possibly even state troops.
  • ReymReym Posts: 489Registered Users
    yst said:

    ^ exactly, i mean hes given a chariot, like for what; none of those chariots r constructs. Why in the world would any1 use him on chariot either when u can chariot tomb prince built for combat.

    Necrotect with necro serpent would solve nec knights even when they r subpar vs the others of the same class.

    I use him on chariot vs dwarves, so I got 2 SE chariots who can heal my 2 tomb scorpions. Also if you compare the chariot mount of both hero you don't got an extreme gap at the end.
    I also doubt that 2 small passives will turn the tide.

    Looking at the weird charge of those necropolis knights might be the first thing to do before everything else concerning this unit imo.
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,517Registered Users

    The reason NK don't get picked is excellent choices on TK roster.

    This seems to be the case with both the Snake Cavalry and the Snake Boys. Probably the Ushabti and Screaming Memes as well.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,497Registered Users

    Actually necro knights (halberds) trade very well with other cav. AL, AP, and frikkin poison. Show me other cav with this combo.

    If you're comparing with the best in class demis (halberds) you're doing it wrong. They can be routed from missile damage, magic or terror, and are more expensive in any case so shouldn't trade evenly.

    The reason NK don't get picked is excellent choices on TK roster. Go heavy on NK and you're giving up Ushabti bows, tomb scorps, or necro sphinx. Go heavy on demis and you're giving up state troops, state troops or possibly even state troops.

    No the reason is tomb kings heavy cav are bad Vs infantry. Terrible charges for the price. So unlike demigryphs who are a functional cav unit the knights and stalkers are only good Vs cav.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,497Registered Users
    So... i'm not opposed to making the stalker snakes better in some way. They are a little hard to use.

    But if you for example compare how they do vs a unit of horned ones, taking a charge while braced, they are at least as good if not better than necro knights with halbards. Both units win with about half health left.

    So there's some micro cost and perhaps the ranged isn't enough to make a skilled opponent actually charge you even if you try to shoot them? But for me I always consider them the better anti-armoured-large tool for 200 less points.

    Then, vanguaged isn't stalk but it does let you hide in the woods in unexpected places. Which isn't half bad.

    If I were to buff anything for them it would be the range of their spit attacks.

    Separately, I still consider them better than necro knights with halbards.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,202Registered Users
    Their spread is ridiculous, need those fixed first so at least they have a functional gaze
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  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 110Registered Users
    All these construct cav have the same issue as VCs black lances-theres always a better alternative
    For anti inf you go scorps for anti large you go necrosphinx which are both SEM so they give you full value till destroyed
    I dont think that buffing solves it
    The spits should be looked into tho
  • ystyst Posts: 6,202Registered Users
    Gaze is their main selling point and unique only to them. It should be deadly effective with only 3 ammo count. Problem is, it isnt, the spread is way high and ineffective. But i mean CA saw that, however I just dont think adding their ammo is the right way to do it. Its ok to have less ammo that performs better than 3 that performs miserably. They arent THAT bad, just too much lots for improvements
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  • yukishiro1yukishiro1 Member Posts: 482Registered Users
    edited November 23
    The knights are fine, they just don't have any role because TKs are so good that they have multiple other unit options that are just better.

    The snakes are indeed pretty lame, for similar reasons to razordons being lame. Short range, high spread ranged weapons don't have a role in a game built on this engine and CA needs to just bite the bullet and accept that.
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