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Pikes when included should be...

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  • DerPhonixDerPhonix Senior Member Posts: 426Registered Users

    DerPhonix said:

    200 elephants were not able to break the phalanx of Alexander in the battle of Hydaspes. In fact, they ended up routing and doing more damage to their own army.

    African Elephant, which is larger than the Elephants usually used as War Elephants:



    NORSCAN MAMMOTH:



    then add the fact that the Mammoth's are chaos mutated and therefore likely more aggressive, not even talking about the Mammoth with the shrine...

    I'd argue it's even three times the overall size of the Elephant.
    I'm not saying it would be easy to take down a mammoth. But if you were going to try to, which of the below weapons would you rather have?







  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 10,195Registered Users
    DerPhonix said:

    DerPhonix said:

    200 elephants were not able to break the phalanx of Alexander in the battle of Hydaspes. In fact, they ended up routing and doing more damage to their own army.

    African Elephant, which is larger than the Elephants usually used as War Elephants:



    NORSCAN MAMMOTH:



    then add the fact that the Mammoth's are chaos mutated and therefore likely more aggressive, not even talking about the Mammoth with the shrine...

    I'd argue it's even three times the overall size of the Elephant.
    I'm not saying it would be easy to take down a mammoth. But if you were going to try to, which of the below weapons would you rather have?










    or, considering their muscles, hide, bone and fat... an axe to chop through that natural armour...


    the pikes won't be of much use when the mammoth crashed through your lines and threw your nice pike block into disarray, allowing the frothing Norscan berserkers to get close enough that the pikes can't be used.
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 2,125Registered Users
    @TheGuardianOfMetal
    So a race only using cannons and slayers? Sounds cool.

    Pikes are a new Unique unit type. The best human weapon against large monsters.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 10,195Registered Users
    ArneSo said:

    @TheGuardianOfMetal
    So a race only using cannons and slayers? Sounds cool.

    Pikes are a new Unique unit type. The best human weapon against large monsters.

    considering the natural resistance most large monsters have... yeah no... since this is going with a "realism" basis:
    Arachnarok's exoskeletons, Necrofex Colossi, Bonegiants etc. likely would just have the pikes break off or clatter bounce of harmlessely.

    giants could just break them with their clubs

    dragons: naturally armored again.

    Mammoths: Thick layers of skin, muscles and fat.

    Bastiladon/Ancient Stegadon... Carnosaur and Dread Saurian... see above

    the best human weapon against large monsters are cannons and the Luminark of Hysh.
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
  • DerPhonixDerPhonix Senior Member Posts: 426Registered Users

    the pikes won't be of much use when the mammoth crashed through your lines and threw your nice pike block into disarray, allowing the frothing Norscan berserkers to get close enough that the pikes can't be used.

    First, a spear tip has much greater penetrating power than an axe blade. Hence part of the reason hunter gatherers used spears and javelins, not axes, when taking down big mammals like the mammoth.

    Second, a mammoth would also crash through the lines of axemen and throw everything into dispensary. The difference is that at least with pikes you'd have fair chance at striking the beast before getting trampled, and your friends would be from a safe striking distance while the mammoth is busy killing you.

    Third, axes will not be within reach of striking any vita part of animal, whereas a pike would. Your only option would be getting up close and slashing your big axe at its feet, which would be notoriously difficult provided the animal is constantly moving and now having having a much easier time killing you.



  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 10,195Registered Users
    you have a nice chance of making it more angry before it hits the line with the pike. And maybe breaking some of your pikes along the way

    yes "Axemen"... Slayers... would get thrown into disarray... but they can use their axes in hand to hand, unlike a pike.

    Your own picture shows it: to deal with the mammoth the hunters have to spread out so that some can attack while others distract... and now the friends of the guys on the mammoths are closing in.

    A Slayer does nothing but killing the likes of trolls etc. your pikes likely also wouldn't get to the mammoth's vitals, considering the amount of muscles etc.

    BUT the axe can cut their tendons... which means it comes down and can not really move anymore. Basically more like cutting down a moving tree than

    You say pike is the ultimate anti-large. That might be true in Real life... but in Warhammer? No.. not really. The monsters are tougher than any RL creature.

    And then of course there are Bolt Throwers, Cannons and other ranged weapons. Everything that kills the beast before it gets to your lines is better than the pike for anti-large duty. Oh, the Luminark of Hysh of course too.

    "The Gods see fit to populate the Old World with all manners of foul monsters. They've also seen fit to grant me a keen eye and a strong bow to hunt them with."
    -Markus Wulfhart
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 5,029Registered Users
    I have yet to see a monster last longer than 30 seconds against a proper gunline, Dwarf, Empire or Z-Pirate one.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 5,029Registered Users
    edited November 17
    DerPhonix said:

    the pikes won't be of much use when the mammoth crashed through your lines and threw your nice pike block into disarray, allowing the frothing Norscan berserkers to get close enough that the pikes can't be used.

    First, a spear tip has much greater penetrating power than an axe blade. Hence part of the reason hunter gatherers used spears and javelins, not axes, when taking down big mammals like the mammoth.



    I would say spears would be preferred because they don't have as much length on which they can be broken. Javelins are literally range weapons so you're working against yourself.

    Pikes were good when there aren't heavy counters that could break them and provide a solid wall, but they can easily be shattered by anything that can swing a massive club across it.

    Do you go hunting with spears, pikes or range? Pikes are poor man's bow and arrow.

    Axes, though, I guess work if you have to fight close, which against monsters that can just walk over you is basically guaranteed.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,111Registered Users
    edited November 17
    Personally, if I had to pick a weapon with which I expected ordinary humans to fight something like a War Mammoth in melee, pikes would be pretty high on the list. They'd undo the reach advantage that such a large monster would normally have, and a deep thrust is more likely to hit something vital and do some real damage.

    I'd probably give them some kind of backup for when the pike breaks. Probably a two-handed sword, but I could see arguments for a short halberd or pollaxe designed specifically for fighting a large monster.

    This post is strange:

    OP is saying pikes are good
    OP claims pikes are awesome vs large
    OP wants pikes when Dogs of War are introduced

    Conclusion:

    This is another "give me DoW" thread under the disguise of " give me pikes" thread.

    To be fair, OP is focusing on the mechanics of a particular weapon. Just happens to be a DoW weapon.

    Personally, I'd expect them to be like spears, but with a longer range than halberds, allowing for genuine fighting in ranks. Maybe some mechanic where they negate enemy charge bonuses and gain their own when charged in the front. Similar AP to regular spears - they win through sheer number of attacks.

    Weaknesses would be flank charges (which they would be penalised extra by) and shooting. Artillery and flying units (which can fly just past them and then dive in) would probably be the best things around for messing them up.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 10,195Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    Personally, if I had to pick a weapon with which I expected ordinary humans to fight something like a War Mammoth in melee, pikes would be pretty high on the list. They'd undo the reach advantage that such a large monster would normally have, and a deep thrust is more likely to hit something vital and do some real damage.

    or the monster hits the pike with, for example, a club (giant) and either destroys your pike or pushes it out of your hands. or in case of the mammoth: might simply end with you loosing the pike because if you penetrate the skin etc... it still keeps going... and since this is again the realism take: what'd pikes do against moving stone?



    the back up for a pike btw. is never something like a "two handed sword" or "short halberd"... that stuff is too large to carry around as backup. The backup for a halberd is usually something like a one handed sword, for example the Katzbalger. Halberds, Pollaxes and two handers are PRIMARY weapons.

    also, actually getting bound in melee should be a weakness... when the pike can't be used anymore, pikemen should loose against dedicated hand to hand units like Swordsmen.

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,111Registered Users
    edited November 17

    Draxynnic said:

    Personally, if I had to pick a weapon with which I expected ordinary humans to fight something like a War Mammoth in melee, pikes would be pretty high on the list. They'd undo the reach advantage that such a large monster would normally have, and a deep thrust is more likely to hit something vital and do some real damage.

    or the monster hits the pike with, for example, a club (giant) and either destroys your pike or pushes it out of your hands. or in case of the mammoth: might simply end with you loosing the pike because if you penetrate the skin etc... it still keeps going... and since this is again the realism take: what'd pikes do against moving stone?



    the back up for a pike btw. is never something like a "two handed sword" or "short halberd"... that stuff is too large to carry around as backup. The backup for a halberd is usually something like a one handed sword, for example the Katzbalger. Halberds, Pollaxes and two handers are PRIMARY weapons.

    also, actually getting bound in melee should be a weakness... when the pike can't be used anymore, pikemen should loose against dedicated hand to hand units like Swordsmen.

    Sure, a pike can be broken, but it's better that the pike be broken than the soldier trying to wield it, which is what that swing with a club from the giant is likely to do if the soldier is trying to get in close enough to use an axe. And like I acknowledged, against something like a mammoth you're only likely to get one good stab in before the end breaks off inside the mammoth's hide... but that's one good stab more than you would have got otherwise. Lances were often only good for a couple of charges, but that doesn't mean they weren't worth using.

    A longsword - using the historical terminology of "a two-handed sword that's still wielded like a sword rather than being effectively a sword-shaped polearm" - can be, and was, worn on the hip and used as a sidearm. In historical pike blocks, shorter weapons were preferred because once you got into the infighting, that's what worked. If you're fighting a monster instead, you're probably not going to be dealing with the same tight confines, so you can have the biggest weapon that's convenient, and that's probably a longsword. You could potentially carry a short halberd or pollaxe on your back, but that's awkward on several levels.

    At the bottom line, all of these are essentially "least bad" options - getting close to something like a giant or a war mammoth is pretty much suicidal either way. The more reach you have, the more likely you're going to be able to get in a hit before you get crushed. The big axes you're talking about (as well as the two-handed swords) are last-ditch options that are effectively suicide but maybe you'll get a good hit in before you go down and, if you're really lucky, maybe you and your mates will do enough damage to it to bring it down before you've committed suicide by monster.

    The thing with Slayers is that they're looking to commit suicide by monster, so having a weapon that's effectively suicide to try to use isn't a problem for them. Even once you get in close, though, I don't think an axe is the best choice, particularly for humans. War axes used historically usually had smaller blades than fantasy would lead you to believe, and against something like a monster, I'd consider a big sword to be a less bad choice than a big axe, because they have better thrusting potential or can be used to deliver shallow but wide draw cuts. If you were going to go for the big swing, a pick head would probably be better than an axe blade - it'll punch through hide better and can get deeper, so it's more likely to cause an injury that matters. Driving a sword in like a spear or, y'know, using an actual spear or pike would probably be better though. Axes may be marginally better than swords at swinging the weapon rather than stabbing, but you're probably most likely looking at mere flesh wounds either way.

    Shadiversity has a video on this sort of thing - the conclusion is not to let it get close enough for melee in the first place, but if you are forced to try to kill an unarmoured giant (and the same comments probably apply for other large but relatively soft-skinned monsters) with melee weapons, pikes are the least bad. He comes to the same conclusion with dragons, albeit with the assumption the dragon can't just toast the pikemen. Reach is important, particularly against something that can crush you well before you get close enough to effectively use a sword or axe.

    (The second video is probably the more detailed analysis - he devotes roughly half the video to the "if you have to fight in melee" section, while in the giant video, he just has a mention near the start and a bit near the end.)

    Pikes against monsters in armour or with a hard skin would naturally be less effective than against a soft exterior, but this would be accounted for by giving them a similar proportion of AP than spears, it doesn't say anything about whether they'd be anti-large. And, honestly, I don't think an axe or the like would be much better against moving stone, at least not when wielded with the strength of a typical human soldier - you'd probably blunt your blade faster than you chipped the stone.
    Post edited by Draxynnic on
  • DerPhonixDerPhonix Senior Member Posts: 426Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Personally, if I had to pick a weapon with which I expected ordinary humans to fight something like a War Mammoth in melee, pikes would be pretty high on the list. They'd undo the reach advantage that such a large monster would normally have, and a deep thrust is more likely to hit something vital and do some real damage.

    or the monster hits the pike with, for example, a club (giant) and either destroys your pike or pushes it out of your hands. or in case of the mammoth: might simply end with you loosing the pike because if you penetrate the skin etc... it still keeps going... and since this is again the realism take: what'd pikes do against moving stone?



    the back up for a pike btw. is never something like a "two handed sword" or "short halberd"... that stuff is too large to carry around as backup. The backup for a halberd is usually something like a one handed sword, for example the Katzbalger. Halberds, Pollaxes and two handers are PRIMARY weapons.

    also, actually getting bound in melee should be a weakness... when the pike can't be used anymore, pikemen should loose against dedicated hand to hand units like Swordsmen.

    Sure, a pike can be broken, but it's better that the pike be broken than the soldier trying to wield it, which is what that swing with a club from the giant is likely to do if the soldier is trying to get in close enough to use an axe. And like I acknowledged, against something like a mammoth you're only likely to get one good stab in before the end breaks off inside the mammoth's hide... but that's one good stab more than you would have got otherwise. Lances were often only good for a couple of charges, but that doesn't mean they weren't worth using.

    A longsword - using the historical terminology of "a two-handed sword that's still wielded like a sword rather than being effectively a sword-shaped polearm" - can be, and was, worn on the hip and used as a sidearm. In historical pike blocks, shorter weapons were preferred because once you got into the infighting, that's what worked. If you're fighting a monster instead, you're probably not going to be dealing with the same tight confines, so you can have the biggest weapon that's convenient, and that's probably a longsword. You could potentially carry a short halberd or pollaxe on your back, but that's awkward on several levels.

    At the bottom line, all of these are essentially "least bad" options - getting close to something like a giant or a war mammoth is pretty much suicidal either way. The more reach you have, the more likely you're going to be able to get in a hit before you get crushed. The big axes you're talking about (as well as the two-handed swords) are last-ditch options that are effectively suicide but maybe you'll get a good hit in before you go down and, if you're really lucky, maybe you and your mates will do enough damage to it to bring it down before you've committed suicide by monster.

    The thing with Slayers is that they're looking to commit death by monster, so having a weapon that's effectively suicide to try to use isn't a problem for them. Even once you get in close, though, I don't think an axe is the best choice, particularly for humans. War axes used historically usually had smaller blades than fantasy would lead you to believe, and against something like a monster, I'd consider a big sword to be a less bad choice than a big axe, because they have better thrusting potential or can be used to deliver shallow but wide draw cuts. If you were going to go for the big swing, a pick head would probably be better than an axe blade - it'll punch through hide better and can get deeper, so it's more likely to cause an injury that matters. Driving a sword in like a spear or, y'know, using an actual spear or pike would probably be better though. Axes may be marginally better than swords at swinging the weapon rather than stabbing, but you're probably most likely looking at mere flesh wounds either way.

    Shadiversity has a video on this sort of thing - the conclusion is not to let it get close enough for melee in the first place, but if you are forced to try to kill an unarmoured giant (and the same comments probably apply for other large but relatively soft-skinned monsters) with melee weapons, pikes are the least bad. He comes to the same conclusion with dragons, albeit with the assumption the dragon can't just toast the pikemen. Reach is important, particularly against something that can crush you well before you get close enough to effectively use a sword or axe.

    (The second video is probably the more detailed analysis - he devotes roughly half the video to the "if you have to fight in melee" section, while in the giant video, he just has a mention near the start and a bit near the end.)

    Pikes against monsters in armour or with a hard skin would naturally be less effective than against a soft exterior, but this would be accounted for by giving them a similar proportion of AP than spears, it doesn't say anything about whether they'd be anti-large. And, honestly, I don't think an axe or the like would be much better against moving stone, at least not when wielded with the strength of a typical human soldier - you'd probably blunt your blade faster than you chipped the stone.
    Good post. CA and GW needs to see that video as it had lots of interesting "facts" about fighting giants. The fact that you'd be better off without armor is something I've never thought off.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,303Registered Users
    edited November 17

    DerPhonix said:

    200 elephants were not able to break the phalanx of Alexander in the battle of Hydaspes. In fact, they ended up routing and doing more damage to their own army.

    African Elephant, which is larger than the Elephants usually used as War Elephants:



    NORSCAN MAMMOTH:



    then add the fact that the Mammoth's are chaos mutated and therefore likely more aggressive, not even talking about the Mammoth with the shrine...

    I'd argue it's even three times the overall size of the Elephant.
    A tack is tiny compared to a human. Stepping into one will however still hurt like hell and is likely to impair movement for a while. Now imagine getting continously stabbed by a dozen much longer spikes.

    Yeah no. Even a Mammoth hopped up on chaos juice would feel that charging into such a line would be a bad idea.

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