Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Fixing the Elder Races

Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior MemberPosts: 21,134Registered Users
edited November 17 in General Discussion
The elder races (Dwarfs, Elves, Lizardmen) are currently very boring to play as because game balance is so lopsidedly in their favor. They have overtuned economies and can spam and spread with ease. Spamming is of course especially annoying because their troops are already of better average quality and therefore should NOT be as endlessly spammable as they are currently and they're considered to be low in number, so spreading across the map should likewise be much harder to pull off.

I would like if they were encouraged to go tall rather than wide, so here's my suggestion:

-they get additional bonuses on the settlement chain at T4 and T5 like cost and upkeep reduction on their military
-however, advancing a settlement chain to T4 and T5 becomes increasingly expensive the more you have of them already
-the more T4 and T5 settlements they have in total, the lower the additional bonus they get becomes
-at a certain number of T4-5 level settlements, those shrinking bonuses are accompanied by debuffs, so say having four T4-5 settlements is the maximum you can have before you receive increasing growth and income penalties from spreading too wide and at even higher levels your recruitment is also slowed down
-they should for this reason get the option to downgrade high level settlements (for a fee)

What this aims at is to encourage elder races to only capture and develop choice settlements and be more dependent on cooperating with other factions to get forward.
«1

Comments

  • Koolasuchus69 Koolasuchus69 Posts: 26Registered Users
    I don’t have a problem with them and i like them the way they are. That said, it does sound like an interesting/good system for a future faction, or one that could do with a rework.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,134Registered Users

    I don’t have a problem with them and i like them the way they are. That said, it does sound like an interesting/good system for a future faction, or one that could do with a rework.

    I don't like them as they are at all. They don't play like you'd expect them to play. They can spam and spread with no problem and that takes about all of their flavor away.

    No, they need to be changed. They should not stay as they currently are.
  • 39821739175248623982173917524862 Posts: 817Registered Users
    Lizardmen already have a very bad economy at the start and they only get a moderate economy once they get multiple geomantic webs up.
    Why is this only aimed at these factions, when the issues you bring up are prevalent in all factions?
  • summertimelovinsummertimelovin Posts: 206Registered Users
    I quite like this concept as it would make them more like the dying races they should be rather than civilizations with infinite manpower. It should shift their priorities to defending the powerful settlements they already have instead of colonizing everything.

    They could also maybe implement something similar to the peasant economy for high elves at least instead of the usual army upkeep. Where having too many armies on the field weakens your settlements somewhat because there'd be less elves working in the cities. I don't know how to balance that though. Maybe every standing army reduces trade and settlement income and also public order or something by an ever increasing amount.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,134Registered Users

    Lizardmen already have a very bad economy at the start and they only get a moderate economy once they get multiple geomantic webs up.
    Why is this only aimed at these factions, when the issues you bring up are prevalent in all factions?

    Elder Races are worse at it than everyone else, that's why. General Empire size penalties should be introduced as well, but this is now just focused at these specific failures of game design.

    LM don't have a bad economy, just not a laughably broken one like Elves and Dwarfs. They are overpowered because Saurus are spammable, counter everything they encounter early on, have massively overrated AR values and then lead to LM spamming dinos, who hard-counter the AI, period.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,029Registered Users
    People tend to conflate "negative population growth" with "low manpower". Japan's had negative population growth for the last decade and a fertility rate below replenishment since the mid-70s, but there's still over a hundred million people. When you're looking at long-lived races, negative population growth is not necessarily inconsistent with a high base population. Despite the impression you might get from some people, none of the "elder races" are one good kick away from total collapse.

    One general problem I've observed is that the elder races have wealth (as is appropriate for the fluff) but are able to convert that wealth into large armies in a way they couldn't in the fluff because the individual soldiers are also wealthier and demand higher standards. Meanwhile, some of the horde races (using the definition here of being a large number, not the nomadic usage of "horde" that CA uses) lack wealth, again as fits the fluff, but their lack of wealth hinders their ability to field large armies in a way that it never did in the fluff.

    So what I'd like to see is for some of the wealthier races to have some scaling that represents that the citizenry that they're recruiting from is wealthier and has higher standards than the less wealthy races, and vice versa for races where most of their number are dirt-poor or just don't care much such as greenskins or skaven. Address the root cause of the disparity rather than slapping on complex mechanics intended to cripple a race.

  • fireatwill4fireatwill4 Posts: 128Registered Users

    The elder races (Dwarfs, Elves, Lizardmen) are currently very boring to play as because game balance is so lopsidedly in their favor. They have overtuned economies and can spam and spread with ease. Spamming is of course especially annoying because their troops are already of better average quality and therefore should NOT be as endlessly spammable as they are currently and they're considered to be low in number, so spreading across the map should likewise be much harder to pull off.

    I would like if they were encouraged to go tall rather than wide, so here's my suggestion:

    -they get additional bonuses on the settlement chain at T4 and T5 like cost and upkeep reduction on their military
    -however, advancing a settlement chain to T4 and T5 becomes increasingly expensive the more you have of them already
    -the more T4 and T5 settlements they have in total, the lower the additional bonus they get becomes
    -at a certain number of T4-5 level settlements, those shrinking bonuses are accompanied by debuffs, so say having four T4-5 settlements is the maximum you can have before you receive increasing growth and income penalties from spreading too wide and at even higher levels your recruitment is also slowed down
    -they should for this reason get the option to downgrade high level settlements (for a fee)

    What this aims at is to encourage elder races to only capture and develop choice settlements and be more dependent on cooperating with other factions to get forward.

    Why they should be punished for expanding? This is a terrible idea, LZM already have very convoluted bulding chains as it is to nerf them further while their geomantic web provides meager support to this issue early game. Considering they are mostly all in Lustria, this would leave them behind against several threats. Neither should DWF or HE/DE as they all are sitting on vast networks of commerce and stockpiles of resources. This sounds like another "make everything worse so SKV have an edge" proposal, obvious by the fact they were graciously ommitted.
  • AurawallAurawall Posts: 157Registered Users
    Because the Old Ones designed it that way

    Each of the One One races where more or less but on a continent or area by themselves.

    Eves on Ulthuan
    Dwarfs on the Old World
    Halflings on the Moot
    Humans on the Southlands, Albion, and the East
    Giants on the Mountains of Mourn
    And Lizardmen everywhere else
    (the Ogre project didn't get finished)

    They were designed to expand. That's the Great *click* Plan
  • AzurianAzurian Posts: 807Registered Users
    I find elves in dire need of reinforcement.

  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,230Registered Users
    I think a major reason is because of confederation. Using a mod, I found these races have a much slower pace at expansion since they no longer have an option to suddenly gain both regions and armies, all because the other party happened to be very weak.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Posts: 10,117Registered Users
    I don't think the problem is with the Elder Races. I'd tackle it from the reverse angle.

    The problem is the evil races and diplomacy.

    The order races rarely infight, rarely clash with each other, have plenty of local allies to call upon for alliances or confederations. Shield of civilation buff is the apex of this.

    Now, you could certainly argue for ways to alleviate this. But I think with the current balance playing AS a destruction race can be quite fun. So rather than nerf the order races, I'd like to see better buffs to destruction ones.

    Have all LL factions of far flung Skaven and DE lords visible to each other from turn 1 and therefore able to trade/be confederated. Give destruction races more diplo bonuses with other local powers. Skrolk + Lokhir + Harkon etc. Redo start positions so that they don't /have/ to fight each other Skrolk + Lokhir. etc etc etc
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • fireatwill4fireatwill4 Posts: 128Registered Users
    Azurian said:

    I find elves in dire need of reinforcement.

    I totally agree, they could use a bit more oomph.
  • ChesterMcGirrChesterMcGirr Posts: 134Registered Users

    Azurian said:

    I find elves in dire need of reinforcement.

    I totally agree, they could use a bit more oomph.
    Not sure they're an "oomph" faction though, more like a "stand around look pretty and lament the stupidity of everyone who isn't a HE" kinda race :p
  • SephlockSephlock Posts: 2,001Registered Users

    Azurian said:

    I find elves in dire need of reinforcement.

    I totally agree, they could use a bit more oomph.
    Not sure they're an "oomph" faction though, more like a "stand around look pretty and lament the stupidity of everyone who isn't a HE" kinda race :p
    #JusticeForUshoran #RuneGolems #RuneGuardians #ShardDragons #Thunderbarges #Stormfiends #BigMonsters #MoreDakka
  • steph74steph74 Junior Member Posts: 1,091Registered Users
    One of the mechanism I have in my mod, SWO-RD, is too have two types of units§.
    - Generic untis are recruitable everywhere, but are more expensive AND weaker.
    - Heraldic untis are recruitable only in your core regions, are stronger and less expensive, but are capped in number.

    This way, it is relatively easier to protect your homeland (where you can recruit the stronger army), but harder to conquer since in occupied territory you only have access to weaker units.
  • 39821739175248623982173917524862 Posts: 817Registered Users

    Lizardmen already have a very bad economy at the start and they only get a moderate economy once they get multiple geomantic webs up.
    Why is this only aimed at these factions, when the issues you bring up are prevalent in all factions?

    Elder Races are worse at it than everyone else, that's why. General Empire size penalties should be introduced as well, but this is now just focused at these specific failures of game design.

    LM don't have a bad economy, just not a laughably broken one like Elves and Dwarfs. They are overpowered because Saurus are spammable, counter everything they encounter early on, have massively overrated AR values and then lead to LM spamming dinos, who hard-counter the AI, period.
    Only as Gor-Rok and Kroq'Gar. Other Lizardmen lords can't spam Saurus in the early game. Lizardmen economy is pathetic at the start and only gets better through stacking bonuses from webs, plazas and tech. And it's not any better than factions like HE and DE economies, who are an outliner if you choose to abuse hero stacking and slave economy.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,134Registered Users
    edited November 18

    Lizardmen already have a very bad economy at the start and they only get a moderate economy once they get multiple geomantic webs up.
    Why is this only aimed at these factions, when the issues you bring up are prevalent in all factions?

    Elder Races are worse at it than everyone else, that's why. General Empire size penalties should be introduced as well, but this is now just focused at these specific failures of game design.

    LM don't have a bad economy, just not a laughably broken one like Elves and Dwarfs. They are overpowered because Saurus are spammable, counter everything they encounter early on, have massively overrated AR values and then lead to LM spamming dinos, who hard-counter the AI, period.
    Only as Gor-Rok and Kroq'Gar. Other Lizardmen lords can't spam Saurus in the early game. Lizardmen economy is pathetic at the start and only gets better through stacking bonuses from webs, plazas and tech. And it's not any better than factions like HE and DE economies, who are an outliner if you choose to abuse hero stacking and slave economy.
    Disagree completely. The only LM campaign I found remotely challenging at the start what Tehenauin's...because he can't spam Saurus. And no, you don't need to actually abuse anything as HE and DE, just playing the campaigns normally will drown you in money in no time, the cheese just puts it over the top.

    Elder races are a failed design. Their campaigns should be the hardest in the game but instead they're the easiest by far.
  • UagrimUagrim Posts: 693Registered Users

    Lizardmen already have a very bad economy at the start and they only get a moderate economy once they get multiple geomantic webs up.
    Why is this only aimed at these factions, when the issues you bring up are prevalent in all factions?

    Elder Races are worse at it than everyone else, that's why. General Empire size penalties should be introduced as well, but this is now just focused at these specific failures of game design.

    LM don't have a bad economy, just not a laughably broken one like Elves and Dwarfs. They are overpowered because Saurus are spammable, counter everything they encounter early on, have massively overrated AR values and then lead to LM spamming dinos, who hard-counter the AI, period.
    Only as Gor-Rok and Kroq'Gar. Other Lizardmen lords can't spam Saurus in the early game. Lizardmen economy is pathetic at the start and only gets better through stacking bonuses from webs, plazas and tech. And it's not any better than factions like HE and DE economies, who are an outliner if you choose to abuse hero stacking and slave economy.
    Disagree completely. The only LM campaign I found remotely challenging at the start what Tehenauin's...because he can't spam Saurus. And no, you don't need to actually abuse anything as HE and DE, just playing the campaigns normally will drown you in money in no time, the cheese just puts it over the top.

    Elder races are a failed design. Their campaigns should be the hardest in the game but instead they're the easiest by far.
    Does anybody force you to spam saurus in the other campaigns? Do you spam them because skinks aren't as viable as you make them out to be outside of the prophets faction who buffs them into murder machines?

    And only cause you think its the "elder" races should be the hardest doesn't mean it has to be that way.

  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Posts: 1,192Registered Users
    I agree with the sentiment, not the implementation you suggest. It's a bit difficult to represent these races in the total war format, but one thing I would like would be some more important "homeland" systems. Essentially, all races have their respective homelands or lands where they dominate. So far this is represented by terrain types and landmarks, but it is not enough IMO. Especially, the different races should have very different effects from being in un-ideal terrain. For example, greenskins should be almost unaffected by terrain, they can live pretty much anywhere, and are able to build bases and replenish themselves quickly anywhere in the world. The elder races on the other hand, should be much more dependent on their actual homelands, since building cities for them would take a lot of time and manpower.

    So, based on the terrain type, the elder races should have much bigger penalties to growth, replenishment and income dependant on whether the area was "native" to them or not, while races like greenskins and skaven should have almost no such penalties.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,134Registered Users
    edited November 18
    Uagrim said:

    Lizardmen already have a very bad economy at the start and they only get a moderate economy once they get multiple geomantic webs up.
    Why is this only aimed at these factions, when the issues you bring up are prevalent in all factions?

    Elder Races are worse at it than everyone else, that's why. General Empire size penalties should be introduced as well, but this is now just focused at these specific failures of game design.

    LM don't have a bad economy, just not a laughably broken one like Elves and Dwarfs. They are overpowered because Saurus are spammable, counter everything they encounter early on, have massively overrated AR values and then lead to LM spamming dinos, who hard-counter the AI, period.
    Only as Gor-Rok and Kroq'Gar. Other Lizardmen lords can't spam Saurus in the early game. Lizardmen economy is pathetic at the start and only gets better through stacking bonuses from webs, plazas and tech. And it's not any better than factions like HE and DE economies, who are an outliner if you choose to abuse hero stacking and slave economy.
    Disagree completely. The only LM campaign I found remotely challenging at the start what Tehenauin's...because he can't spam Saurus. And no, you don't need to actually abuse anything as HE and DE, just playing the campaigns normally will drown you in money in no time, the cheese just puts it over the top.

    Elder races are a failed design. Their campaigns should be the hardest in the game but instead they're the easiest by far.
    Does anybody force you to spam saurus in the other campaigns? Do you spam them because skinks aren't as viable as you make them out to be outside of the prophets faction who buffs them into murder machines?

    And only cause you think its the "elder" races should be the hardest doesn't mean it has to be that way.

    It's absolutely irrelevant whether something "forces" me to be as efficient as possible. Having to play the game badly to enjoy it is a failure of game design, plain and simple.

    People can always play on easy to get their precious power fantasy. But anyone who'd like more flavor to the WH races is SOL.

    @yolordmcswag

    I had actually a much harsher system in mind originally, elder races can only "normally" develop settlements that have the skin of their race (so only temple cities for LM, only Elf colonies for Elves, only Karaks for Dwarfs) and everything that does not is red terrain, with red terrain capped at T1 (for everyone BTW).

    Elder races have currently little flavor to them, they're simply overpowered in all the wrong ways. Draxynic said it, that the game translates wealth 1:1 into military power is a major failure on behalf of CA because it enables the elder races to dominate both in the quality and quantity game which is plain BS.
  • UagrimUagrim Posts: 693Registered Users
    edited November 18

    Uagrim said:

    Lizardmen already have a very bad economy at the start and they only get a moderate economy once they get multiple geomantic webs up.
    Why is this only aimed at these factions, when the issues you bring up are prevalent in all factions?

    Elder Races are worse at it than everyone else, that's why. General Empire size penalties should be introduced as well, but this is now just focused at these specific failures of game design.

    LM don't have a bad economy, just not a laughably broken one like Elves and Dwarfs. They are overpowered because Saurus are spammable, counter everything they encounter early on, have massively overrated AR values and then lead to LM spamming dinos, who hard-counter the AI, period.
    Only as Gor-Rok and Kroq'Gar. Other Lizardmen lords can't spam Saurus in the early game. Lizardmen economy is pathetic at the start and only gets better through stacking bonuses from webs, plazas and tech. And it's not any better than factions like HE and DE economies, who are an outliner if you choose to abuse hero stacking and slave economy.
    Disagree completely. The only LM campaign I found remotely challenging at the start what Tehenauin's...because he can't spam Saurus. And no, you don't need to actually abuse anything as HE and DE, just playing the campaigns normally will drown you in money in no time, the cheese just puts it over the top.

    Elder races are a failed design. Their campaigns should be the hardest in the game but instead they're the easiest by far.
    Does anybody force you to spam saurus in the other campaigns? Do you spam them because skinks aren't as viable as you make them out to be outside of the prophets faction who buffs them into murder machines?

    And only cause you think its the "elder" races should be the hardest doesn't mean it has to be that way.

    It's absolutely irrelevant whether something "forces" me to be as efficient as possible. Having to play the game badly to enjoy it is a failure of game design, plain and simple.

    People can always play on easy to get their precious power fantasy. But anyone who'd like more flavor to the WH races is SOL.

    @yolordmcswag

    I had actually a much harsher system in mind originally, elder races can only "normally" develop settlements that have the skin of their race (so only temple cities for LM, only Elf colonies for Elves, only Karaks for Dwarfs) and everything that does not is red terrain, with red terrain capped at T1 (for everyone BTW).

    Elder races have currently little flavor to them, they're simply overpowered in all the wrong ways. Draxynic said it, that the game translates wealth 1:1 into military power is a major failure on behalf of CA because it enables the elder races to dominate both in the quality and quantity game which is plain BS.
    So you force the elder races punish the player for something instead of simply not playing the way you don't like to play.

    Like literally you limit their gameplay because you don't like them.

    Yes wealth should be more disconnected from military power.

    But that could be solved far simpler with a recruitment pool, with higher tier units needing longer to fill into the pool. Rather then some contrived settlement nonsens that punishes the player for playing the game.

    Edit:

    To expand on that mechanic a bit more the recruitment at the moment is a transformation of money into units. Instead I would propose a more dynamic system with manpower. Besides basic units all units have a manpower reserve that grows over time and scales with how many of that units recruitment buildings you have. How quickly that manpower reserve grows depends on the unit in question.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Posts: 3,041Registered Users
    Waste of time and resources fixing a "problem" that doesn't bother most players. There are other things I'd prefer CA work on.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,134Registered Users
    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Lizardmen already have a very bad economy at the start and they only get a moderate economy once they get multiple geomantic webs up.
    Why is this only aimed at these factions, when the issues you bring up are prevalent in all factions?

    Elder Races are worse at it than everyone else, that's why. General Empire size penalties should be introduced as well, but this is now just focused at these specific failures of game design.

    LM don't have a bad economy, just not a laughably broken one like Elves and Dwarfs. They are overpowered because Saurus are spammable, counter everything they encounter early on, have massively overrated AR values and then lead to LM spamming dinos, who hard-counter the AI, period.
    Only as Gor-Rok and Kroq'Gar. Other Lizardmen lords can't spam Saurus in the early game. Lizardmen economy is pathetic at the start and only gets better through stacking bonuses from webs, plazas and tech. And it's not any better than factions like HE and DE economies, who are an outliner if you choose to abuse hero stacking and slave economy.
    Disagree completely. The only LM campaign I found remotely challenging at the start what Tehenauin's...because he can't spam Saurus. And no, you don't need to actually abuse anything as HE and DE, just playing the campaigns normally will drown you in money in no time, the cheese just puts it over the top.

    Elder races are a failed design. Their campaigns should be the hardest in the game but instead they're the easiest by far.
    Does anybody force you to spam saurus in the other campaigns? Do you spam them because skinks aren't as viable as you make them out to be outside of the prophets faction who buffs them into murder machines?

    And only cause you think its the "elder" races should be the hardest doesn't mean it has to be that way.

    It's absolutely irrelevant whether something "forces" me to be as efficient as possible. Having to play the game badly to enjoy it is a failure of game design, plain and simple.

    People can always play on easy to get their precious power fantasy. But anyone who'd like more flavor to the WH races is SOL.

    @yolordmcswag

    I had actually a much harsher system in mind originally, elder races can only "normally" develop settlements that have the skin of their race (so only temple cities for LM, only Elf colonies for Elves, only Karaks for Dwarfs) and everything that does not is red terrain, with red terrain capped at T1 (for everyone BTW).

    Elder races have currently little flavor to them, they're simply overpowered in all the wrong ways. Draxynic said it, that the game translates wealth 1:1 into military power is a major failure on behalf of CA because it enables the elder races to dominate both in the quality and quantity game which is plain BS.
    So you force the elder races punish the player for something instead of simply not playing the way you don't like to play.

    Like literally you limit their gameplay because you don't like them.

    Yes wealth should be more disconnected from military power.

    But that could be solved far simpler with a recruitment pool, with higher tier units needing longer to fill into the pool. Rather then some contrived settlement nonsens that punishes the player for playing the game.

    No, reward them for NOT PLAYING THEM LIKE A SPAMMY SWARM FACTION!

    Elves play more like Skaven than the Skaven. Dwarfs play more like Greenskins than Greenskins.

    This is an ADAPTION of the Warhammer universe and not adapting certain aspects of it, that Elves, Lizards and Dwarfs are DYING RACES who need to overcome their quantitative disadvantage with qualitative advantages is an utter and complete failure on CA's behalf. Right now they can spam high quality troops as much as they want, expand as much as they want and are better at it than the races that should have exactly this as their strength.
  • fireatwill4fireatwill4 Posts: 128Registered Users

    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Lizardmen already have a very bad economy at the start and they only get a moderate economy once they get multiple geomantic webs up.
    Why is this only aimed at these factions, when the issues you bring up are prevalent in all factions?

    Elder Races are worse at it than everyone else, that's why. General Empire size penalties should be introduced as well, but this is now just focused at these specific failures of game design.

    LM don't have a bad economy, just not a laughably broken one like Elves and Dwarfs. They are overpowered because Saurus are spammable, counter everything they encounter early on, have massively overrated AR values and then lead to LM spamming dinos, who hard-counter the AI, period.
    Only as Gor-Rok and Kroq'Gar. Other Lizardmen lords can't spam Saurus in the early game. Lizardmen economy is pathetic at the start and only gets better through stacking bonuses from webs, plazas and tech. And it's not any better than factions like HE and DE economies, who are an outliner if you choose to abuse hero stacking and slave economy.
    Disagree completely. The only LM campaign I found remotely challenging at the start what Tehenauin's...because he can't spam Saurus. And no, you don't need to actually abuse anything as HE and DE, just playing the campaigns normally will drown you in money in no time, the cheese just puts it over the top.

    Elder races are a failed design. Their campaigns should be the hardest in the game but instead they're the easiest by far.
    Does anybody force you to spam saurus in the other campaigns? Do you spam them because skinks aren't as viable as you make them out to be outside of the prophets faction who buffs them into murder machines?

    And only cause you think its the "elder" races should be the hardest doesn't mean it has to be that way.

    It's absolutely irrelevant whether something "forces" me to be as efficient as possible. Having to play the game badly to enjoy it is a failure of game design, plain and simple.

    People can always play on easy to get their precious power fantasy. But anyone who'd like more flavor to the WH races is SOL.

    @yolordmcswag

    I had actually a much harsher system in mind originally, elder races can only "normally" develop settlements that have the skin of their race (so only temple cities for LM, only Elf colonies for Elves, only Karaks for Dwarfs) and everything that does not is red terrain, with red terrain capped at T1 (for everyone BTW).

    Elder races have currently little flavor to them, they're simply overpowered in all the wrong ways. Draxynic said it, that the game translates wealth 1:1 into military power is a major failure on behalf of CA because it enables the elder races to dominate both in the quality and quantity game which is plain BS.
    So you force the elder races punish the player for something instead of simply not playing the way you don't like to play.

    Like literally you limit their gameplay because you don't like them.

    Yes wealth should be more disconnected from military power.

    But that could be solved far simpler with a recruitment pool, with higher tier units needing longer to fill into the pool. Rather then some contrived settlement nonsens that punishes the player for playing the game.

    No, reward them for NOT PLAYING THEM LIKE A SPAMMY SWARM FACTION!

    Elves play more like Skaven than the Skaven. Dwarfs play more like Greenskins than Greenskins.

    This is an ADAPTION of the Warhammer universe and not adapting certain aspects of it, that Elves, Lizards and Dwarfs are DYING RACES who need to overcome their quantitative disadvantage with qualitative advantages is an utter and complete failure on CA's behalf. Right now they can spam high quality troops as much as they want, expand as much as they want and are better at it than the races that should have exactly this as their strength.
    So you want to reward the playerbase by limiting their options because they don't comform to your idea of a faithful representation of their fluff? How is having in-built limitations rewarding in any way shape or form? This whole notion of dying races holds little substance anyways. Naggarond keeps expanding, despite several invasions and raids Ulthuan stood (until ET), regardless of the treacherous ratmen and the savage greenskins the dwarven karaks endure and thrive through commerce with the empire, the underways being reclaimed little by little. Lizardmen rise periodically from their spawning pools as the great plan dictates it. This whole argument about "dying races" holds very little substance.

    In the words of Gav Thorpe "There are as many elves as the plot demands"
  • mightygloinmightygloin Posts: 1,434Registered Users

    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Lizardmen already have a very bad economy at the start and they only get a moderate economy once they get multiple geomantic webs up.
    Why is this only aimed at these factions, when the issues you bring up are prevalent in all factions?

    Elder Races are worse at it than everyone else, that's why. General Empire size penalties should be introduced as well, but this is now just focused at these specific failures of game design.

    LM don't have a bad economy, just not a laughably broken one like Elves and Dwarfs. They are overpowered because Saurus are spammable, counter everything they encounter early on, have massively overrated AR values and then lead to LM spamming dinos, who hard-counter the AI, period.
    Only as Gor-Rok and Kroq'Gar. Other Lizardmen lords can't spam Saurus in the early game. Lizardmen economy is pathetic at the start and only gets better through stacking bonuses from webs, plazas and tech. And it's not any better than factions like HE and DE economies, who are an outliner if you choose to abuse hero stacking and slave economy.
    Disagree completely. The only LM campaign I found remotely challenging at the start what Tehenauin's...because he can't spam Saurus. And no, you don't need to actually abuse anything as HE and DE, just playing the campaigns normally will drown you in money in no time, the cheese just puts it over the top.

    Elder races are a failed design. Their campaigns should be the hardest in the game but instead they're the easiest by far.
    Does anybody force you to spam saurus in the other campaigns? Do you spam them because skinks aren't as viable as you make them out to be outside of the prophets faction who buffs them into murder machines?

    And only cause you think its the "elder" races should be the hardest doesn't mean it has to be that way.

    It's absolutely irrelevant whether something "forces" me to be as efficient as possible. Having to play the game badly to enjoy it is a failure of game design, plain and simple.

    People can always play on easy to get their precious power fantasy. But anyone who'd like more flavor to the WH races is SOL.

    @yolordmcswag

    I had actually a much harsher system in mind originally, elder races can only "normally" develop settlements that have the skin of their race (so only temple cities for LM, only Elf colonies for Elves, only Karaks for Dwarfs) and everything that does not is red terrain, with red terrain capped at T1 (for everyone BTW).

    Elder races have currently little flavor to them, they're simply overpowered in all the wrong ways. Draxynic said it, that the game translates wealth 1:1 into military power is a major failure on behalf of CA because it enables the elder races to dominate both in the quality and quantity game which is plain BS.
    So you force the elder races punish the player for something instead of simply not playing the way you don't like to play.

    Like literally you limit their gameplay because you don't like them.

    Yes wealth should be more disconnected from military power.

    But that could be solved far simpler with a recruitment pool, with higher tier units needing longer to fill into the pool. Rather then some contrived settlement nonsens that punishes the player for playing the game.

    No, reward them for NOT PLAYING THEM LIKE A SPAMMY SWARM FACTION!

    Elves play more like Skaven than the Skaven. Dwarfs play more like Greenskins than Greenskins.

    This is an ADAPTION of the Warhammer universe and not adapting certain aspects of it, that Elves, Lizards and Dwarfs are DYING RACES who need to overcome their quantitative disadvantage with qualitative advantages is an utter and complete failure on CA's behalf. Right now they can spam high quality troops as much as they want, expand as much as they want and are better at it than the races that should have exactly this as their strength.

    In the words of Gav Thorpe "There are as many elves as the plot demands"
    The plot never demands elder races to outnumber swarm factions like Skaven in battles though, which is a pretty common sight in this game right now.
  • UagrimUagrim Posts: 693Registered Users


    The plot never demands elder races to outnumber swarm factions like Skaven in battles though, which is a pretty common sight in this game right now.

    Pretty sure the hole vamp ai is set to passive ATM so they don't do much to affect the other races.
    Them being more active is going to have an effect on both dwarfs and empire.

    As for the outnumbering part, pretty sure the AI doesn't suffer from supply lines at all which has a noticable effect on how many armies the different factions field. So maybe making the AI suffer from supply lines with some factions might be a good things for that
  • DEM0N_LLAMADEM0N_LLAMA Posts: 522Registered Users
    I am not against doing changes to any races but the OP suggestions are just not good.

    I think the recruitment pool and the different races should have very different effects from being in un-ideal terrain suggestion sound far better.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Posts: 1,192Registered Users
    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Lizardmen already have a very bad economy at the start and they only get a moderate economy once they get multiple geomantic webs up.
    Why is this only aimed at these factions, when the issues you bring up are prevalent in all factions?

    Elder Races are worse at it than everyone else, that's why. General Empire size penalties should be introduced as well, but this is now just focused at these specific failures of game design.

    LM don't have a bad economy, just not a laughably broken one like Elves and Dwarfs. They are overpowered because Saurus are spammable, counter everything they encounter early on, have massively overrated AR values and then lead to LM spamming dinos, who hard-counter the AI, period.
    Only as Gor-Rok and Kroq'Gar. Other Lizardmen lords can't spam Saurus in the early game. Lizardmen economy is pathetic at the start and only gets better through stacking bonuses from webs, plazas and tech. And it's not any better than factions like HE and DE economies, who are an outliner if you choose to abuse hero stacking and slave economy.
    Disagree completely. The only LM campaign I found remotely challenging at the start what Tehenauin's...because he can't spam Saurus. And no, you don't need to actually abuse anything as HE and DE, just playing the campaigns normally will drown you in money in no time, the cheese just puts it over the top.

    Elder races are a failed design. Their campaigns should be the hardest in the game but instead they're the easiest by far.
    Does anybody force you to spam saurus in the other campaigns? Do you spam them because skinks aren't as viable as you make them out to be outside of the prophets faction who buffs them into murder machines?

    And only cause you think its the "elder" races should be the hardest doesn't mean it has to be that way.

    It's absolutely irrelevant whether something "forces" me to be as efficient as possible. Having to play the game badly to enjoy it is a failure of game design, plain and simple.

    People can always play on easy to get their precious power fantasy. But anyone who'd like more flavor to the WH races is SOL.

    @yolordmcswag

    I had actually a much harsher system in mind originally, elder races can only "normally" develop settlements that have the skin of their race (so only temple cities for LM, only Elf colonies for Elves, only Karaks for Dwarfs) and everything that does not is red terrain, with red terrain capped at T1 (for everyone BTW).

    Elder races have currently little flavor to them, they're simply overpowered in all the wrong ways. Draxynic said it, that the game translates wealth 1:1 into military power is a major failure on behalf of CA because it enables the elder races to dominate both in the quality and quantity game which is plain BS.
    So you force the elder races punish the player for something instead of simply not playing the way you don't like to play.

    Like literally you limit their gameplay because you don't like them.

    Yes wealth should be more disconnected from military power.

    But that could be solved far simpler with a recruitment pool, with higher tier units needing longer to fill into the pool. Rather then some contrived settlement nonsens that punishes the player for playing the game.

    A unit pool of sorts would be good, that way defeating an army would mean more than just a delay. It could also interract with various race-specific mechanics

    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Lizardmen already have a very bad economy at the start and they only get a moderate economy once they get multiple geomantic webs up.
    Why is this only aimed at these factions, when the issues you bring up are prevalent in all factions?

    Elder Races are worse at it than everyone else, that's why. General Empire size penalties should be introduced as well, but this is now just focused at these specific failures of game design.

    LM don't have a bad economy, just not a laughably broken one like Elves and Dwarfs. They are overpowered because Saurus are spammable, counter everything they encounter early on, have massively overrated AR values and then lead to LM spamming dinos, who hard-counter the AI, period.
    Only as Gor-Rok and Kroq'Gar. Other Lizardmen lords can't spam Saurus in the early game. Lizardmen economy is pathetic at the start and only gets better through stacking bonuses from webs, plazas and tech. And it's not any better than factions like HE and DE economies, who are an outliner if you choose to abuse hero stacking and slave economy.
    Disagree completely. The only LM campaign I found remotely challenging at the start what Tehenauin's...because he can't spam Saurus. And no, you don't need to actually abuse anything as HE and DE, just playing the campaigns normally will drown you in money in no time, the cheese just puts it over the top.

    Elder races are a failed design. Their campaigns should be the hardest in the game but instead they're the easiest by far.
    Does anybody force you to spam saurus in the other campaigns? Do you spam them because skinks aren't as viable as you make them out to be outside of the prophets faction who buffs them into murder machines?

    And only cause you think its the "elder" races should be the hardest doesn't mean it has to be that way.

    It's absolutely irrelevant whether something "forces" me to be as efficient as possible. Having to play the game badly to enjoy it is a failure of game design, plain and simple.

    People can always play on easy to get their precious power fantasy. But anyone who'd like more flavor to the WH races is SOL.

    @yolordmcswag

    I had actually a much harsher system in mind originally, elder races can only "normally" develop settlements that have the skin of their race (so only temple cities for LM, only Elf colonies for Elves, only Karaks for Dwarfs) and everything that does not is red terrain, with red terrain capped at T1 (for everyone BTW).

    Elder races have currently little flavor to them, they're simply overpowered in all the wrong ways. Draxynic said it, that the game translates wealth 1:1 into military power is a major failure on behalf of CA because it enables the elder races to dominate both in the quality and quantity game which is plain BS.
    So you force the elder races punish the player for something instead of simply not playing the way you don't like to play.

    Like literally you limit their gameplay because you don't like them.

    Yes wealth should be more disconnected from military power.

    But that could be solved far simpler with a recruitment pool, with higher tier units needing longer to fill into the pool. Rather then some contrived settlement nonsens that punishes the player for playing the game.

    No, reward them for NOT PLAYING THEM LIKE A SPAMMY SWARM FACTION!

    Elves play more like Skaven than the Skaven. Dwarfs play more like Greenskins than Greenskins.

    This is an ADAPTION of the Warhammer universe and not adapting certain aspects of it, that Elves, Lizards and Dwarfs are DYING RACES who need to overcome their quantitative disadvantage with qualitative advantages is an utter and complete failure on CA's behalf. Right now they can spam high quality troops as much as they want, expand as much as they want and are better at it than the races that should have exactly this as their strength.
    So you want to reward the playerbase by limiting their options because they don't comform to your idea of a faithful representation of their fluff? How is having in-built limitations rewarding in any way shape or form? This whole notion of dying races holds little substance anyways. Naggarond keeps expanding, despite several invasions and raids Ulthuan stood (until ET), regardless of the treacherous ratmen and the savage greenskins the dwarven karaks endure and thrive through commerce with the empire, the underways being reclaimed little by little. Lizardmen rise periodically from their spawning pools as the great plan dictates it. This whole argument about "dying races" holds very little substance.

    In the words of Gav Thorpe "There are as many elves as the plot demands"
    The game limits the player in countless ways in order to conform with a faithful representation of the fluff already. For example, you canno't recruit orc boys as the empire, or grail knights as chaos warriors. You cannot use the underway as Bretonnia, you cannot raise dead as high elves, you cannot trade as greenskins. All these and countless more are ways that CA has tried to differentiate the races, and to make them play more like they do in lore. And in-lore both the high-elves, lizardmen, and dwarfs are all dying races. Sure, they are very much alive at the moment, but their golden ages are all long gone and there is a long time since any of them gained a large amount of land, or even reclaimed/rebuilt any of their lost cities.

    I for one would really welcome if they made some changes to make races like greenskins and skaven feel really expendable and aggressive, while the elder races could be more sparse and elite.
  • dlmcc020202dlmcc020202 Posts: 2Registered Users
    These older races HE and Dwarves in particular are usually associated with great wealth in most lore. Lizards in the Warhammer universe have been there since the dawn of time as protectors, so the units should feel stronger than your average Bretonnia unit as an example.

    I play Lizards fairly often, the economy isn’t great. The better units are expensive to upkeep and the only reason they have a decent economy is due to them totally dominating Lustria. That to me just makes sense that they’d have more money than Vampires or Norsca

    Are these campaigns boring? Yes very. That’s why we can play others. I find Skaven enjoyable but when my 20 stack of garbage infantry at 26gold a pop goes up against a fed up Empire units, I expect to be overpowered. They can bring more than me later in the game sure, if i want to bring the more advanced Skaven units out. l can field multiplenstacks of terrible units which is what one would expect from Skaven.

    I don’t find the Older Races overpowered. I find some races need help. Green skins, Beastmen for example. Chaos I find lousy in campaign. But why should Greenskins be able to field the same amount of HIGH quality expensive stacks the Dwarves can? To me it wouldn’t make sense lore wise
Sign In or Register to comment.