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Fixing the Elder Races

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  • JastallJastall Junior Member Posts: 1,001Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    People tend to conflate "negative population growth" with "low manpower". Japan's had negative population growth for the last decade and a fertility rate below replenishment since the mid-70s, but there's still over a hundred million people. When you're looking at long-lived races, negative population growth is not necessarily inconsistent with a high base population. Despite the impression you might get from some people, none of the "elder races" are one good kick away from total collapse.

    One general problem I've observed is that the elder races have wealth (as is appropriate for the fluff) but are able to convert that wealth into large armies in a way they couldn't in the fluff because the individual soldiers are also wealthier and demand higher standards. Meanwhile, some of the horde races (using the definition here of being a large number, not the nomadic usage of "horde" that CA uses) lack wealth, again as fits the fluff, but their lack of wealth hinders their ability to field large armies in a way that it never did in the fluff.

    So what I'd like to see is for some of the wealthier races to have some scaling that represents that the citizenry that they're recruiting from is wealthier and has higher standards than the less wealthy races, and vice versa for races where most of their number are dirt-poor or just don't care much such as greenskins or skaven. Address the root cause of the disparity rather than slapping on complex mechanics intended to cripple a race.

    Indeed, IMO the issue is the direct translation of wealth to military power. A unit pool mechanic, or perhaps less populous races having more penalizing supply lines to simulate their soldier's higher standards, would reflect this far more than an arbitrary debuff done solely to spite a race the OP doesn't like.

    I also like the idea that some races get far more severe penalty from inhospitable terrain. Posh High Elves or grumpy Dwarves should be far less accepting of living somewhere they hate than Skaven who are used to hardship or Orcs who don't care so long as there's things to fight. Perhaps that would limit the crazy expansion of some races.
  • fireatwill4fireatwill4 Posts: 132Registered Users

    Uagrim said:

    Uagrim said:

    Lizardmen already have a very bad economy at the start and they only get a moderate economy once they get multiple geomantic webs up.
    Why is this only aimed at these factions, when the issues you bring up are prevalent in all factions?

    Elder Races are worse at it than everyone else, that's why. General Empire size penalties should be introduced as well, but this is now just focused at these specific failures of game design.

    LM don't have a bad economy, just not a laughably broken one like Elves and Dwarfs. They are overpowered because Saurus are spammable, counter everything they encounter early on, have massively overrated AR values and then lead to LM spamming dinos, who hard-counter the AI, period.
    Only as Gor-Rok and Kroq'Gar. Other Lizardmen lords can't spam Saurus in the early game. Lizardmen economy is pathetic at the start and only gets better through stacking bonuses from webs, plazas and tech. And it's not any better than factions like HE and DE economies, who are an outliner if you choose to abuse hero stacking and slave economy.
    Disagree completely. The only LM campaign I found remotely challenging at the start what Tehenauin's...because he can't spam Saurus. And no, you don't need to actually abuse anything as HE and DE, just playing the campaigns normally will drown you in money in no time, the cheese just puts it over the top.

    Elder races are a failed design. Their campaigns should be the hardest in the game but instead they're the easiest by far.
    Does anybody force you to spam saurus in the other campaigns? Do you spam them because skinks aren't as viable as you make them out to be outside of the prophets faction who buffs them into murder machines?

    And only cause you think its the "elder" races should be the hardest doesn't mean it has to be that way.

    It's absolutely irrelevant whether something "forces" me to be as efficient as possible. Having to play the game badly to enjoy it is a failure of game design, plain and simple.

    People can always play on easy to get their precious power fantasy. But anyone who'd like more flavor to the WH races is SOL.

    @yolordmcswag

    I had actually a much harsher system in mind originally, elder races can only "normally" develop settlements that have the skin of their race (so only temple cities for LM, only Elf colonies for Elves, only Karaks for Dwarfs) and everything that does not is red terrain, with red terrain capped at T1 (for everyone BTW).

    Elder races have currently little flavor to them, they're simply overpowered in all the wrong ways. Draxynic said it, that the game translates wealth 1:1 into military power is a major failure on behalf of CA because it enables the elder races to dominate both in the quality and quantity game which is plain BS.
    So you force the elder races punish the player for something instead of simply not playing the way you don't like to play.

    Like literally you limit their gameplay because you don't like them.

    Yes wealth should be more disconnected from military power.

    But that could be solved far simpler with a recruitment pool, with higher tier units needing longer to fill into the pool. Rather then some contrived settlement nonsens that punishes the player for playing the game.

    No, reward them for NOT PLAYING THEM LIKE A SPAMMY SWARM FACTION!

    Elves play more like Skaven than the Skaven. Dwarfs play more like Greenskins than Greenskins.

    This is an ADAPTION of the Warhammer universe and not adapting certain aspects of it, that Elves, Lizards and Dwarfs are DYING RACES who need to overcome their quantitative disadvantage with qualitative advantages is an utter and complete failure on CA's behalf. Right now they can spam high quality troops as much as they want, expand as much as they want and are better at it than the races that should have exactly this as their strength.

    In the words of Gav Thorpe "There are as many elves as the plot demands"
    The plot never demands elder races to outnumber swarm factions like Skaven in battles though, which is a pretty common sight in this game right now.
    Neither it demands for it to be impossible for Dwarfs, Elfs, Lizardmen or other elder races to be able to settle in places such as Estalia, Bretonnia, Tilea, Reikland, or any other such places with climates in which they can survive. If GS and SKV can't bring enough numbers to bear the problem lies in those instead of everyone else, lets not put the cart before the horse.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,070Registered Users

    there is a long time since any of them gained a large amount of land, or even reclaimed/rebuilt any of their lost cities.

    Not true. High Elves have to reclaim and rebuild every time there's a major Dark Elf invasion, and in turn, the Dark Elves rebuild Anlec during most invasions. Lizardmen refound temple-cities fairly regularly, and the dwarfs keep pushing into fallen holds when they get the opportunity.

    You could also expand this to non-elder-races. When was the last time the Empire underwent a significant expansion? Bretonnia? Any undead faction? Ogres? Heck, even the territories of the Greenskins, Skaven, and marauder tribes have been mostly fairly static for centuries, even if there's a bit of churn from fighting between different factions within those races.

    Neither it demands for it to be impossible for Dwarfs, Elfs, Lizardmen or other elder races to be able to settle in places such as Estalia, Bretonnia, Tilea, Reikland, or any other such places with climates in which they can survive. If GS and SKV can't bring enough numbers to bear the problem lies in those instead of everyone else, lets not put the cart before the horse.

    Pretty much what I've been saying - and we know that the GS and Skv are probably both due (more) rules updates soon.

    While CA has made efforts to reflect the fluff of the various races, there are things that have been left out (influence mechanics should be more widespread than they are, for instance) and sacrifices made to fluff accuracy for the sake of gameplay. True representation of the elder races would require them to start in a strong position from which any losses hurt, but that's just not compatible with the gameplay decision that every playable faction starts with practically nothing and characters that have been powerful for centuries starting at level 1. Getting a "true" representation of the fluff would require rebuilding the game from the ground up.

    Which leaves the accusation that Skaven and Greenskins don't spread enough while the elder races spread too much.

    There's a degree of truth in this. However, the tendency of those races to just sprawl may be exaggerated. Permanent greenskin settlements require good conditions for greenskin spore growth, which is part of the reason they never fully gained control of the lowlands of the Old World even in the days before the Empire, and part of why Waaaghs usually don't result in conquests being converted into permanent occupation.

    With respect to the Skaven: Skaven rarely overtly control large portions of the surface. If you look at the maps, there are a few lairs in the mountains near Skavenblight (which are not represented on the current map) but strongholds where the skaven control the surface as well are otherwise fairly few and far between. Most Skaven territory is beneath someone else's surface territory - we're told that they have fortresses in the Southlands, for instance, but none of them are marked on the maps. So it's possible that playing like a Skaven isn't supposed to involve building a large empire on the surface, but to hold key locations while gathering resources to develop those surface holdings through raiding, sacking, and building the Under-Empire.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,275Registered Users
    After some experimenting, I found actually a much simpler method to fix the elder races.

    Every unit above the milita level takes 2+ turns to recruit.

    The effect is immense. Lizardmen and Dwarfs are suddenly fighting with their backs to the wall, being beset by the evil races on all sides and the Elves exhaust each other with their warfare. The Empire and Bretonnia are the biggest bulwarks of order now, just as they should be.

    Skaven can actually become quite powerful if they don't get obliterated and spammed to death by the order races. Playing Skaven in Lustria especially will have other Skaven be quickly your main rivals, JUST AS IT SHOULD BE!

    I can only strongly recommend CA to change the elder races in this direction.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,070Registered Users
    edited November 21

    The Empire and Bretonnia are the biggest bulwarks of order now, just as they should be.

    Except that this isn't the case. Empire and Bretonnia are the biggest bulwarks in the Old World, but the High Elves are (still) stronger on the world stage. It's the High Elves that tend to intervene in the Old World to prop up the Empire and Bretonnia from time to time, not the other way around.

    The High Elves might have negative population growth and be weaker than they used to be, but this is all relative: they're still not weak. The High and Dark Elves are still probably the nations in WFB that most consistently behave in a manner that fits with the modern definition of a superpower (although the Under-Empire would exceed them in the rare occasions that it behaves as a single nation).

    (Technically speaking, too, the High Elves are already pretty close to having only militia being able to be one-turned. Silver Helms, Ellyrion Reavers, and even Tiranoc Chariots are all technically citizen levy, they just come from a higher socioeconomic bracket than Spearmen and Archers.)
  • fireatwill4fireatwill4 Posts: 132Registered Users


    Every unit above the milita level takes 2+ turns to recruit.

    The effect is immense.

    Precisely why it shouldn't be done. It's an overcorrection for a problem that simply doesn't exist. If the problem lies on the SKV's low rate of survival SKV are the problem and not the other way around.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,275Registered Users
    edited November 21
    Draxynnic said:

    The Empire and Bretonnia are the biggest bulwarks of order now, just as they should be.

    Except that this isn't the case. Empire and Bretonnia are the biggest bulwarks in the Old World, but the High Elves are (still) stronger on the world stage.
    The Empire and Bretonnia ARE the biggest bulwarks simply because they're in the way of every major chaos invasion, so they have to be. The High Elves are strained for men and can only send support (and that reluctantly) whenever this happens, as was the case when Asavar Kul started his invasion. As Tyrion says in the 360° trailer, "WE CAN SPARE NO ONE!"

    I would also like to mention that every unit that comes with the name of an Elven kingdom only ever actually comes from that very place, so that fully justifies prolonging their procurement as they have to be brought in from there in the first place.


    Every unit above the milita level takes 2+ turns to recruit.

    The effect is immense.

    Precisely why it shouldn't be done. It's an overcorrection for a problem that simply doesn't exist. If the problem lies on the SKV's low rate of survival SKV are the problem and not the other way around.
    Nope, evil races should have the edge and they should mostly stand in the way of each other, it should never, EVER be ordertide. Order races must stand with the back of the wall and that feeling should never quite go away throughout any order campaign.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,070Registered Users
    Asavar Kul's invasion coincided with a combined DE/WoC invasion of Ulthuan. If the US had got into a hot war with the USSR during the 60s, they probably wouldn't have much to spare for Vietnam, would they?

    It's still the High Elves that intervene in the Old World and have a global presence in general, while the furthest the Empire or Bretonnia have gone from the Old World in any real strength in the fluff was Araby. They're regional powers in the Old World, but not superpowers, and while the High Elves have assisted the Empire and Bretonnia a few times, the only assistance that the Empire or Bretonnia have offered to the High Elves is coincidental to fighting for their own survival.

    Ultimately, the High Elves may be declining, but they're still strong enough that they're the Order race that is most likely to have the spare capacity to assist others. (Possibly the Lizardmen, but they rarely use it.)
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,275Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    Asavar Kul's invasion coincided with a combined DE/WoC invasion of Ulthuan. If the US had got into a hot war with the USSR during the 60s, they probably wouldn't have much to spare for Vietnam, would they?

    It's still the High Elves that intervene in the Old World and have a global presence in general, while the furthest the Empire or Bretonnia have gone from the Old World in any real strength in the fluff was Araby. They're regional powers in the Old World, but not superpowers, and while the High Elves have assisted the Empire and Bretonnia a few times, the only assistance that the Empire or Bretonnia have offered to the High Elves is coincidental to fighting for their own survival.

    Ultimately, the High Elves may be declining, but they're still strong enough that they're the Order race that is most likely to have the spare capacity to assist others. (Possibly the Lizardmen, but they rarely use it.)

    DE and WoC invasions of Ulthuan are a near constant issue, not even speaking of smaller scale slave raids by either so this is business as usual. Since that means they really can't do a lot outside of Ulthuan, it proves my point that they are in fact not the biggest bulwark against chaos, they're a supporting player because they need to concentrate on safekeeping their island fortress. Only in End Times did they change that and that's because their island fortress was scuttled.

    They're declining because they have a low birthrate, grow up slow and yet are near constantly exposed to attritious warfare and some of it against enemies that are sheer unending in number.

    In campaign they never feel like that. They're obnoxiously wealthy and obnoxiously spammy and can spread across the map and fart out high level settlements wherever they wish. Absolutely immersion breaking and a total mockery of what they SHOULD play like.

    Two-turn recruitment fixes a lot of this. I prefer challenging elf campaigns over boring ones.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,070Registered Users
    Malekith's invasion that coincided with Asavar Kul's was not business as usual. It was a direct clash between two powerful nations.

    The statements you make about the decline being due to a low birthrate and high attrition is accurate, but this says nothing about their power level now, just that it's not what they used to be. The fluff consistently states that Ulthuan is still one of the most powerful nations in the Warhammer World, it's just that it's in question how long that can continue to be the case.
  • fireatwill4fireatwill4 Posts: 132Registered Users
    edited November 21


    Nope, evil races should have the edge

    Because you think it should be so even when it doesn't comform with the existing fluff that protrays the "elder races"? Dwarven Karaks sit on veins of mineral wealth that are unmatched, gems, gold, gromril, silver, copper, you name it. Ulthuan projects its economic might through the largest known fleet, having amassed through trade and imperialistic expasion in years past, untold wealth. Lizardmen use gold as ornaments and they are by no means dying out as they periodically see new spawnings occur. Even considering all of the above these races have seen revitalization efforts on a large scale, Finubar brough new stability and growth to Ulthuan, the cult of Sotek has seen to the erradication of the verminous ratmen with religious zeal. Concerted efforts have been made from several dwarven throngs and clans to reclaim lost Karaks and rebuild the underway. By no means these are races that are on the backfoot but instead bouncing back. Furthermore, all these races had millenia to consolidate and amass wealth and power. All these races even if some are in a current state of decline are still mighty contenders in a global scale with wealth amassed across millenia, not to mention the experience that comes from that. Whereas these so called "evil races" barely project their influences to their inmediate surroundings. All I can see here is an unfounded bias.
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