Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

How to deal with boxes

MrProsMrPros Posts: 16Registered Users
I have trouble lately with faction who can box, and overall heavy missiles faction who mostly stays static like 2/3 ushabti greatbows as tomb Kinga and especially dwarfs, boxes with 1 arty or even full ranged army the rest is a mix of good and bad quality infantry, ive been strugle to deal with it as a counts /Chaos Player any advices?

Comments

  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 759Registered Users
    Other than the obvious of quickly disrupting their ranged, I would say have high mass units and force path them through their front melee line into the back.

    If you trolls, don't just tell them to charge front line and leave them there. Spam click like a maniac past the front line and onto ranged units behind.

    Also, forsaken/ghouls can be a good tool to take out slayers. the ROR ghoul unit can trade efficiently with slayers who are often at the back protecting ranged.

    Also, a unit such as the Mortis Sngine can work. Provided you hide it initially so it doesn't die.

    You can also try a crazy build like a "troll toll build". Where you bring so many large targets, (like trolls) that your opponenet is overwhelmed. No one expects and army of trolls!
  • TD2013TD2013 Posts: 39Registered Users
    Vanguard rush, and swamp the box, basically.

    The key problem with these Dwarf boxes is that they have Arty (spam) that will bomb any approaching army into oblivion. This is much more of a problem in 2v2 matches, what I usually do. Due to the Unitlimit not limiting Arty that much (5) it's still a box up and bombing fest.

    The only solution my friend and me came up with was a Vanguard rush combined with a very wide positioned army moving up. Vanguard must have ranged stuff in there to get the Arty in the middle. or completely swamp the arty with a combination of Flyers (Harpies, or bats) and fast moving dogs. As Chaos, Get riders who throw spears which is good versus arty.

    But the key is to Swamp the box with multiple attacks from all sides. So Vanguard deployment is key.
  • MrProsMrPros Posts: 16Registered Users
    Vanguard get shoot down before the Main force will get them and help, So saddly this option doesnt work 1v1
  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Posts: 664Registered Users
    OP when he sees enemy army:

  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 414Registered Users
    If you break one part of a box then it dies, so you just need to focus on sniping the units that are meant to play outside of it and then you can cycle freely once their answers are gone. Dwarf boxes are a different case where you have to take high mass units to punch through the center and pull back through. Chaos probably has the most trouble with these ones and for those you have feral manticores (or hero ones, up to you) and throwing axe horsemen. Anything short of ironbreakers on their side will die to your infantry so you don't need to rush haphazardly
  • doktarrdoktarr Posts: 191Registered Users
    For VC the answer is high mass and summons. A zombie summon shutting down artillery/missiles is fantastic value. Double Varghulf charge will mess up a formation pretty good.

    In Chaos vs. TK you can go heavy on throwing axes, which trade up nicely against UGBs if your opponent lets them sit and shoot. They're also useful against constructs if your opponent goes for a more aggressive build.

    In Chaos vs. Dwarves, a more standard ranged dwarf build will eat marauder horsemen for lunch, so bringing a bunch of them is playing matchup roulette. Instead of going heavy vanguard, you can bring a single Hellcannon and use that to pick at their formation and get them out of their shell. I personally like going for heavy chariot play in this matchup - multiple gorebeast chariots are tough for the dwarves to deal with. If they bring a more standard build, the hellcannon is still nice for picking off high value targets, and the gorebeasts are still good.

    Similar approaches to dwarves will work for boxes from other factions (Empire/Bretonnia/HE/etc) although you're liable to use something other than chariots since you may have to deal with cavalry.

    TL ; DR, just bring something that's good against that faction and toss in a single Hellcannon if you're worried about a box.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Posts: 1,889Registered Users
    ^^lots of good tips on here.

    But as VC, I would also like to add, bring lots of Fell Bats!

    They are miracle workers at disrupting ranged units while you approach with your main army. Plus they can be used to effectively chase things off the map.

    A full flock of 4/5 is really handy vs Dwarfs in particular.
  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 143Registered Users
    The worst case for the VC is HE toxicity with triple phoenix guard triangle and three powerful air units
    While bashing the phoenix guard you will get breathed to army loses
    The dragons can mix in the fight and retreat into the triangle if needed so you cant pursue with your antilarge
    People are doing it quite often sadly
    The only answer is go full air aswell...blood dragon lord and two terrorgeists are mandatory
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 759Registered Users
    Yes I have faced this triangle of death as well. It also featured a unit of sisters and allarielle for that huge aura and healing. The main issue for me isn't the triangle. It's the fact that some players will not move out of it, thus taking a drw unless you attack them. Which is kind of abusive if you ask me.

    Now if a person builds a gunline, say with Dawi, I will not begrudge them if they don't move to attack me and just wait for me to come.

    It's understood that they have a defensive/ranged build and I as VC should attack. That's fine. But these elite, cheesy death boxes, camping in corners are another thing.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,886Registered Users
    edited November 2019

    Yes I have faced this triangle of death as well. It also featured a unit of sisters and allarielle for that huge aura and healing. The main issue for me isn't the triangle. It's the fact that some players will not move out of it, thus taking a drw unless you attack them. Which is kind of abusive if you ask me.

    Now if a person builds a gunline, say with Dawi, I will not begrudge them if they don't move to attack me and just wait for me to come.

    It's understood that they have a defensive/ranged build and I as VC should attack. That's fine. But these elite, cheesy death boxes, camping in corners are another thing.

    That's why we need to buff anti-large infantry to kill sems, cav and chariots better. Can't have those triangles abused by sems and cav!
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,754Registered Users

    Yes I have faced this triangle of death as well. It also featured a unit of sisters and allarielle for that huge aura and healing. The main issue for me isn't the triangle. It's the fact that some players will not move out of it, thus taking a drw unless you attack them. Which is kind of abusive if you ask me.

    Now if a person builds a gunline, say with Dawi, I will not begrudge them if they don't move to attack me and just wait for me to come.

    It's understood that they have a defensive/ranged build and I as VC should attack. That's fine. But these elite, cheesy death boxes, camping in corners are another thing.

    That's why we need to buff anti-large infantry to kill sems, cav and chariots better. Can't have those triangles abused by sems and cav!
    Straw man bs.

    Vampire counts need some tools vs massed enemies since they completely lack ranged units. Wind of death aint what it used to be.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,886Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    Yes I have faced this triangle of death as well. It also featured a unit of sisters and allarielle for that huge aura and healing. The main issue for me isn't the triangle. It's the fact that some players will not move out of it, thus taking a drw unless you attack them. Which is kind of abusive if you ask me.

    Now if a person builds a gunline, say with Dawi, I will not begrudge them if they don't move to attack me and just wait for me to come.

    It's understood that they have a defensive/ranged build and I as VC should attack. That's fine. But these elite, cheesy death boxes, camping in corners are another thing.

    That's why we need to buff anti-large infantry to kill sems, cav and chariots better. Can't have those triangles abused by sems and cav!
    Straw man bs.

    Vampire counts need some tools vs massed enemies since they completely lack ranged units. Wind of death aint what it used to be.
    You are funny. That cheese build doesn't suit your agenda? Plenty more where that came from.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,754Registered Users

    eumaies said:

    Yes I have faced this triangle of death as well. It also featured a unit of sisters and allarielle for that huge aura and healing. The main issue for me isn't the triangle. It's the fact that some players will not move out of it, thus taking a drw unless you attack them. Which is kind of abusive if you ask me.

    Now if a person builds a gunline, say with Dawi, I will not begrudge them if they don't move to attack me and just wait for me to come.

    It's understood that they have a defensive/ranged build and I as VC should attack. That's fine. But these elite, cheesy death boxes, camping in corners are another thing.

    That's why we need to buff anti-large infantry to kill sems, cav and chariots better. Can't have those triangles abused by sems and cav!
    Straw man bs.

    Vampire counts need some tools vs massed enemies since they completely lack ranged units. Wind of death aint what it used to be.
    You are funny. That cheese build doesn't suit your agenda? Plenty more where that came from.
    Super SEMS don't counter triangle halbard/anti-large boxes. Vortexes do. Sorry I was trying to be constructive for the faction and you're just trying to start an argument on an unrelated topic.

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,462Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    Yes I have faced this triangle of death as well. It also featured a unit of sisters and allarielle for that huge aura and healing. The main issue for me isn't the triangle. It's the fact that some players will not move out of it, thus taking a drw unless you attack them. Which is kind of abusive if you ask me.

    Now if a person builds a gunline, say with Dawi, I will not begrudge them if they don't move to attack me and just wait for me to come.

    It's understood that they have a defensive/ranged build and I as VC should attack. That's fine. But these elite, cheesy death boxes, camping in corners are another thing.

    That's why we need to buff anti-large infantry to kill sems, cav and chariots better. Can't have those triangles abused by sems and cav!
    Straw man bs.

    Vampire counts need some tools vs massed enemies since they completely lack ranged units. Wind of death aint what it used to be.
    You are funny. That cheese build doesn't suit your agenda? Plenty more where that came from.
    Super SEMS don't counter triangle halbard/anti-large boxes. Vortexes do. Sorry I was trying to be constructive for the faction and you're just trying to start an argument on an unrelated topic.

    Vortices are super unreliable in this game and reliably counter nothing. They’re more of “for fun” spells.
  • doktarrdoktarr Posts: 191Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Vortices are super unreliable in this game and reliably counter nothing. They’re more of “for fun” spells.

    I basically agree, but Pit of Shades is large and stationary and pumps out damage. Some of the others are cheap enough to spam and accept some misses.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,886Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    Yes I have faced this triangle of death as well. It also featured a unit of sisters and allarielle for that huge aura and healing. The main issue for me isn't the triangle. It's the fact that some players will not move out of it, thus taking a drw unless you attack them. Which is kind of abusive if you ask me.

    Now if a person builds a gunline, say with Dawi, I will not begrudge them if they don't move to attack me and just wait for me to come.

    It's understood that they have a defensive/ranged build and I as VC should attack. That's fine. But these elite, cheesy death boxes, camping in corners are another thing.

    That's why we need to buff anti-large infantry to kill sems, cav and chariots better. Can't have those triangles abused by sems and cav!
    Straw man bs.

    Vampire counts need some tools vs massed enemies since they completely lack ranged units. Wind of death aint what it used to be.
    You are funny. That cheese build doesn't suit your agenda? Plenty more where that came from.
    Super SEMS don't counter triangle halbard/anti-large boxes. Vortexes do. Sorry I was trying to be constructive for the faction and you're just trying to start an argument on an unrelated topic.

    No I was making a joke in the first place, but vortices are not reliable counters to pg in general. They can do work with some luck or vs a bad player who don't check spells and box up really tight, but for most part wom is better used on other spells and vortex hardly ever brought for 200 gold.

    SEMs not countering PG, is that your VC expertise talking?

    The black coach, dragon and mortis engine would be the top three picks afaic but all three are kind of hard to use vs HE because of archers and air threats. Blood knights are a bit safer picks in general but are hard to use vs mass pg, because against popular opinion pg do well vs large as soon as they are not mucked up in summons. That's why PG are good vs VC, they are not that easily countered and don't need buffs in general either afaic.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,754Registered Users
    Uh huh. Vortexes/aoe damage spells are crap vs a triangle box. Now I’ve heard everything. Put on your thinking cap I’m sure you can figure out why they’re not.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,754Registered Users
    edited November 2019
    doktarr said:

    Green0 said:

    Vortices are super unreliable in this game and reliably counter nothing. They’re more of “for fun” spells.

    I basically agree, but Pit of Shades is large and stationary and pumps out damage. Some of the others are cheap enough to spam and accept some misses.
    Yup. Pit of shades is ok but on the pricey side. If they had the equivalent of a uranons thunderbolt, the heavy fire spell (piercing bolts?) with long windup, warp lightning (plz god no) or something in that vein that was more mana competitive they could make extreme boxes less attractive. As a faction with no ranged they kind of deserve that flexibility. Wind of death, in addition to being costly, isn’t the right template for this problem.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,886Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    Uh huh. Vortexes/aoe damage spells are crap vs a triangle box. Now I’ve heard everything. Put on your thinking cap I’m sure you can figure out why they’re not.

    Nobody said that, but three people said they are unreliable, which translates to that they can be effective situationally, even devastating if the opponent deploys super tight and doesn't check the spell selection of the opponent and does not respond to that in any way.

    However, vortex spells are hardly a counter to elite halberds you rely on in the army selection screen. You opt for other things, like black coaches, dragon breaths+cycling, mortis engine and to some extent blood knights. WoM spent on an unreliable vortex is WoM not spent on 100% reliable nehek, summons or spirit leach. There are other things to it as well, but the point was just that in this MU elite halberds are strong. It's just one of many examples where blanket buffing infantry vs all large targets will not improve balance.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,754Registered Users

    eumaies said:

    Uh huh. Vortexes/aoe damage spells are crap vs a triangle box. Now I’ve heard everything. Put on your thinking cap I’m sure you can figure out why they’re not.

    Nobody said that, but three people said they are unreliable, which translates to that they can be effective situationally, even devastating if the opponent deploys super tight and doesn't check the spell selection of the opponent and does not respond to that in any way.

    However, vortex spells are hardly a counter to elite halberds you rely on in the army selection screen. You opt for other things, like black coaches, dragon breaths+cycling, mortis engine and to some extent blood knights. WoM spent on an unreliable vortex is WoM not spent on 100% reliable nehek, summons or spirit leach. There are other things to it as well, but the point was just that in this MU elite halberds are strong. It's just one of many examples where blanket buffing infantry vs all large targets will not improve balance.
    It's almost like you've read nothing I wrote.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,886Registered Users
    eumaies said:


    It's almost like you've read nothing I wrote.

    Let's see, I reckon you didn't appreciate the initial joke.
    eumaies said:


    Straw man bs.

    Vampire counts need some tools vs massed enemies since they completely lack ranged units. Wind of death aint what it used to be.

    And then...
    eumaies said:


    Super SEMS don't counter triangle halbard/anti-large boxes. Vortexes do. Sorry I was trying to be constructive for the faction and you're just trying to start an argument on an unrelated topic.

    ....you seem to mean that we should buff infantry vs the counters to infantry, i.e. SEMs, cav, chariots and monstrous infantry... but compensate by buffing vortex spells to make them into reliable counters to elite halberds instead? That would be good for dwarves having magic resistance and all I guess, but I can't see that being good for much else tbh. Stronger vortex spells seems like a pretty bad idea because in order to make them "reliable" counters vs anti-large boxes you'd basically have to make them into point-and-click delete spells and that's no much fun.

    If you only mean that a vortex can counter that particular triangle, then sure like I wrote it can work if the opponent doesn't check the spell selection, but most importantly it's not a counter you really can rely on in the army selection screen and therefore it's not often brought. I try to squeeze in a vortex sometimes when I play VC, but it's not like it's top priority. It's like an insurance that might work, but likely not in the cases you really need it to work (vs good players that check your spell selection).
  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 143Registered Users
    Lets sum it up shall we?
    The HE halberd box with either strong air or strong units within the box is hard nut to crack for VC and i am willing to accept it since there should be some bad matchup for the VC ( you can compensate bad taste in your mouth by beating , no crushing beastmen or orkz)
    Besides you can always skip this possible toxic game by leaving the lobby...
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,754Registered Users

    eumaies said:


    It's almost like you've read nothing I wrote.

    Let's see, I reckon you didn't appreciate the initial joke.
    eumaies said:


    Straw man bs.

    Vampire counts need some tools vs massed enemies since they completely lack ranged units. Wind of death aint what it used to be.

    And then...
    eumaies said:


    Super SEMS don't counter triangle halbard/anti-large boxes. Vortexes do. Sorry I was trying to be constructive for the faction and you're just trying to start an argument on an unrelated topic.

    ....you seem to mean that we should buff infantry vs the counters to infantry, i.e. SEMs, cav, chariots and monstrous infantry... but compensate by buffing vortex spells to make them into reliable counters to elite halberds instead? That would be good for dwarves having magic resistance and all I guess, but I can't see that being good for much else tbh. Stronger vortex spells seems like a pretty bad idea because in order to make them "reliable" counters vs anti-large boxes you'd basically have to make them into point-and-click delete spells and that's no much fun.

    If you only mean that a vortex can counter that particular triangle, then sure like I wrote it can work if the opponent doesn't check the spell selection, but most importantly it's not a counter you really can rely on in the army selection screen and therefore it's not often brought. I try to squeeze in a vortex sometimes when I play VC, but it's not like it's top priority. It's like an insurance that might work, but likely not in the cases you really need it to work (vs good players that check your spell selection).
    I"m referring to AOE damage spells in general. There are plenty that punish immobile tight box play, which I cited above, and they work on all races, magic resist doesn't help vs overkill damage. Sadly, VC lacks such spells aside from a pricey pit of shades.

    They work reliably if the opponent boxes/triangles as it's easy to pin a box. They don't cost very much to bring. VC headache solved.

  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,393Registered Users
    edited November 2019

    Lets sum it up shall we?
    The HE halberd box with either strong air or strong units within the box is hard nut to crack for VC and i am willing to accept it since there should be some bad matchup for the VC ( you can compensate bad taste in your mouth by beating , no crushing beastmen or orkz)

    Of all undead factions. VC are the least problematic for GS.
    VC are as hard only for BMs(plenty of reasons why) and Chaos(no counter to Mortis).

    That boxes are so good vs VC right now should be solved. See no reason why Mortis boxes were nerfed hard for several patches, but those similary toxic would be left untoched. Either grant VC tool to solve it, or nerf them.

    We have same pattern in multiple factions tactic vs VC right now. HE - box it. DE - box it. LZD - box it. And it is quite succesfull even in high competitive lvl.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,393Registered Users
    edited November 2019
    eumaies said:


    They work reliably if the opponent boxes/triangles as it's easy to pin a box. They don't cost very much to bring. VC headache solved.

    It is easy to pin a noob box. Box do not mean that you cannot move troops. Really if you use box dodge AOEs, Breaths, Vortexes etc. Force path troops, so there would be no clumps that can be hitted by AOEs.
    It is much easier than you think. You have control over troops even if they are in melee.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,754Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    eumaies said:


    They work reliably if the opponent boxes/triangles as it's easy to pin a box. They don't cost very much to bring. VC headache solved.

    It is easy to pin a noob box. Box do not mean that you cannot move troops. Really if you use box dodge AOEs, Breaths, Vortexes etc. Force path troops, so there would be no clumps that can be hitted by AOEs.
    It is much easier than you think. You have control over troops even if they are in melee.
    Let’s be clear on language. You’re not describing a box or triangle you’re describing a small army of highly elite infantry.

    Even then, do you honestly think vc with warp lightning spell wouldn’t be insanely good Vs that? Vc are very good at bogging down enemy units. Warp lightning as an example would be probably too strong for them with its short windup but something on that spectrum of cheap and deadly against massed infantry would definitely add value.

    These spells work. They work in tourneys and they work against regular units, and the cheaper mana ones can afford to be dodged some of the time and you still come out way ahead.
  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 143Registered Users
    Since when is the least problematic undead faction for orkz VC??
    You have air,cav dominance
    Very good antiskirmish options including hexwraiths who do nicely against low MD blackorks
    Add to it spirit leach and other dirty lord snipe tactics and you have 10:1 ratio
  • BovineKingBovineKing Posts: 113Registered Users
    Honestly I often just bring units that out range safely and a mounted caster with one of the nuke type spells large sem helps to I always thought the box was kinda of trap I think good dwarf players will find that boxing up isn’t all that useful

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file