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Missing units and other possible stuff

Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior MemberPosts: 2,735Registered Users
edited December 2019 in General Discussion
Since no news this week, everyone being bored and I am eagerly waiting for todays Battletech patch/DLC and have to occupy myself, I fire this up even if there is not that much to see. This is more a free time project I do every once in a while. Maybe you have seen me posting BoC, WoC or O&G contents over the years once or twice ;) So while I did dig around Skaven and D-Elves the last week a bit out of curiosity, I now decided it is time to finally make a topic and not just work with drafts and local save files. That way I might also get a better view on the lists itself, since drafts with spoiler tags are a pain in the ass. And the code format is another troublemaker, since I know somewhere in my O&G list is an error I could not find yet so I have to go over that from scratch or it will shoot the whole format for everything below. Anyway, here we go. Don't expect a complete workload anytime soon. This is longterm and mood depending after all. The ones which might not appear "right now" are marked with "soon™" and should come after I gave it the finishing touch, found the error or shuffled around some pictures in the next days [or I will dive deep into the Periphery and try out a new Marauder and forget to finish the job...].
So if interested in see when something might be added the next days or next year, you probably rather want to favorite this topic since otherwise it will probably sink down under a flood of new topics asking "Where is my DLC news" by tomorrow evening ;)


FYI: I only really consider 4th edition and later stuff. The 3rd edition and earlier *can* deliver some stuff for CA to add, but it basically was another world back then. 4th edition rather formed the actual worldmap, got rid of halfelves or halforcs and other stuff, refined the lore and pushed the first real armybooks. So don't even get started with "but my precious 3rd edition army entry is not covered" posts ;) Everything that probably was worth saving from 3rd, had probably already transfered into 4th+.

If you see for already listed races units from the old GW HP or other articles which might not be considered but should be worth a mentioning, do mention them. And if possible use a source so I can look it over myself. And yes, I know that thanks to GWs homepage purge back in the days, it really is troublesome in some cases :(
Also noteworthy that while we already had some "unit champions/stuff" becoming own units (like Nastyskulkers or Ancient Kroxigors), I will probably not list everything that exists in that form. Partly since I probably not see them really as important possible new units, partly while I actually might just gloss over them and not recognize "own unit" potential. I have some expertise in some races, mainly of course what I played myself in TT so it might be understandable that if for example I don't like elves in general, I don't see any nuance with them and my expertise there is limited. If you see some potential stuff and can explain why it would be good for the TWW roster addition do point me in the right direction and I might list it. A example that peeked my eye during Dark Elves digging were "Bloodshade Champion" for Shades. But we have Shades, so I actually dismiss them for now and don't see a special "Bloodshade" unit. If you know better, please do elaborate.



And no, I will not list special characters since this is specificly for units. If you want LLs then good news
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/187169/possible-future-ll-speculation-list/p1
which also had a workover yesterday.


Beasts of Chaos [Beastmen]

Armybook (7th)
  • [Lord]Doombull


  • [Lord]Great Bray Shaman

    as with other races, since wizard "Lords" are rare in TWW and there is no wizard level diversity, not that big of a deal.

  • [Hero]Wargor


  • [Core]Tuskgor chariot


  • [Rare]Ghorgon


  • [Rare]Jabberslythe



Forgeworld


White Dwarf/Citadel Journal/others
  • Marked Beastmen [armybook 6th]



    In 6th edition armybook, some Beastmen could get marks of the four gods and Bestigors would then split into Khorngors, Pestigors, Tzaangors and Slaangors. In the 7th edition armybook there were no marks at all. In 8th edition "The (horrible) Endtimes", GW brought marks for Beastmen back for following units
    -Beastlord
    -Doombull
    -Great bray-Shaman
    -Wargor
    -Gorebull
    -Gor herd
    -Ungor herd
    -Ungor Raiders
    -Tuskgor Chariots
    -Minotaurs
    -Centigors
    -Bestigor herd
    -Razorgor chariot
    So it would not be unreasonable for CA to add marked Beastmen (like the special Bestigors) if they may have a harder focus on the four chaos gods in game#3.

  • Chaos Trolls [armybook 6th]


  • Chaos Ogres [armybook 6th]

    Trolls & Ogres were included in the 6th edition armybook, but then written out by the 7th, since they pushed plastic Minotaurs then.

  • Dragon Ogres & Shaggoth [armybook 6th]

    Also written out with 7th, and rather used for WoC then.

  • Banebeast

    Prior to the 6th armybook, there was a early armylist for test purposes in WD. The Warlord was called Banebeast back then (and the Shaggoth a Dragon Ogre Drake). Sometimes people stumble upon the name and expect something different, but this is really not something missing ;)



Bretonnia

Chaos Dwarfs [game#3]
for those interested in what to expect, 2ndmap has done a good visualization.

Daemons of Chaos [game#3]
for those interested in what to expect, 2ndmap has done a good visualization.
Speculative future LL compilation (work in Progress)
Missing units and other possible stuff (work in Progress)
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  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Posts: 2,735Registered Users
    edited December 2019
    Dark Elves

    Armybook (8th)


    Forgeworld


    White Dwarf/Citadel Journal/others
    • [Lord]Anointed [6th Storm of Chaos]

    • The Anointed are a part of the "Cult of Slaanesh" armylist, which was tailored for Morathi to go more Slaanesh.
      http://rosters.mysteria.cz/ostatni/download/SoC - Cult of Slaanesh.pdf
      So while it is unlikely to use Daemons or Chaos Warriors for D-Elves in general, Morathis faction name and her chaos spreading are pointing already in that direction. I would assume when game#3 arrives, with DoC and Chaos rework, Morathi could get an rework herself and maybe go Cult of Slaanesh or use at least some Daemon/Warrior troops similar to Arkhan & Alarielle with their limited access to other races troops.
    • City Commander [6th WD#??? armylist "Cities of the Damned"; Chronicles 2003]

    • City Guard [6th WD#??? armylist "Cities of the Damned"; Chronicles 2003]

    • Royal War Hydra [WD#261; Annual 2002]

    • The Spellthirster [WD#261; Annual 2002]

    • Veteran War Hydra [WD#261; Annual 2002]

    • Chimera [8th edition rulebook]

      Since they have already Feral Manticores and Black Dragons, not much sense to also add Chimeras imo.
    • Steel Giants [8th edition rulebook]

    • Unknown monstrosities [8th edition rulebook]

    • A Emperor Dragon would be another option if there were actually a need for some "huge" exrta monster.



    Dwarfs

    High Elves
    Armybook (8th)
    • [Lord]Archmage

    • [Lord]Anointed of Asuryan

    • [Lord]Loremaster of Hoeth

      Archmage can be lvl 4 wizard, Loremaster is stuck at level 2. Archmage can take various mounts, Loremaster none. So the Loremaster seems rather redundant for TWW purposes and was by CA rightfully pushed down to just be a hero instead of a Lord.
    • [Hero]Mage

      Currently missing six lores: Beast, Metal, Fire, Heaven, Shadows, Death
    • [Hero]Dragonmage of Caledor

    • [Hero]Lothern Sea Helm


      And yes, I still think that the whole idea of that flying melee chariot is stupid.
    • [Mount]Griffon

    • [Special]Lion Chariot of Chrace

    • [Special]Lothern Skycutter



    Forgeworld


    White Dwarf/Citadel Journal/others
    • Storm of Chaos - Sea Patrol would be an idea, if for example there would be made a DLC for Sea Lord Aislinn as themed focus. But without him the most stuff does not make sense. Lords & Heroes are just renamed usual ones. The company itself is also more or less whatever you want from regular spearmen/archers/etc. And since the mages only replaced their innate spell with one of teh two new available, I don't even see a complete new magic lore here to make Weavers/Mist mages a thing on their own right.
    • Feral Lions [Storm of Magic]

      I would not bet on it, but since we have already so much feral stuff running around...
    • A Emperor Dragon would be another option if there were actually a need for some "huge" exrta monster.



    Lizardmen
    Post edited by Red_Dox on
    Speculative future LL compilation (work in Progress)
    Missing units and other possible stuff (work in Progress)
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  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Posts: 2,735Registered Users
    edited December 2019
    Ogre Kingdoms [game#3]

    Orcs & Goblins

    Armybook (8th)
    • [Lord] Goblin Warboss

    • [Lord]Savage Orc Warboss

    • [Lord]Blackorc Warboss

    • [Lord]Orc Great Shaman

    • [Lord]Savage Orc Great Shaman

    • [Lord]Night Goblin Great Shaman

    • [Hero]Night Goblin Big Boss

    • [Hero]Orc Big Boss

    • [Hero]Savage Orc Big Boss

    • [Hero]Black Orc Boss

      We desperatly need some Orc Big Boss Heroes...
    • [Mount]Goblin Warboss on gigantic Spider


    • [Mount] Goblin Great Shaman on Arachnarok with shrine

    • [Mount]Wolf chariot
    • [Mount]Boar chariot

    • [Special]Snotlings

      CA does not do swarms, so not gonna happen.
    • [Special]Snotling Pump Wagon

    • [Special]Goblin Spear Chukka

    • [Rare]Mangler Squigs

      Due to their very special TT rules (behaving mostly like Fanatics) I doubt they will get considered.
    • [Rare]River Trolls

      Trolls that are harder to hit in melee and don't care about "water" terrain
    • [Rare]Stone Trolls

      Got Magic resistance and armor save.
    [Other stuff]
    • Arachnarok Flinger

      Due to low strength and the spider better used in melee anyway, a rather useless tabletop option.
    • Savage Orc Stabba

      It is a upgrade option for a savage orc regiment and more of a gimmick. But since Goblin Nasty Skulkers were a upgrade option for Goblin regiments and were utilized to work as a standalone, I am kinda sure a Wildorc Big Stabba unit who runs arounds to inflict heavy impact dmg on monsters/armoured stuff sounds not that crazy.
    • Gigantic Spider unit

      In TT, a lord/hero could join another lord/hero and so the 2+ could form a unit of their own. Combined with the gigantic Spider mount, sneaky Goblins could form a monstrous cav unit consisting only of heroes/lords. Which was still affordable, since Goblin chars were kinda cheap. Since 8th edition had pushed monstrous cav units for other armybooks (O&G was the first of the edition so GW was playing it a bit save the first books), the whole idea to make a regular unit out of them is not that far fetched. Would probably have been the next thing in the new edition/armybook if the world would still exist.
    • Unit diversity
      There are some other units who are also not included in the current roster with "all" weapon options. I mean I get it, it costs charlemagnes, it would boost the O&G armyroster beyond normal standards and maybe for balance purpose it is not necessary to have everyone with everything. However, for a "themed" army purpose with greenskin diversity it might be nice to have the option to pick what I would like for optical pleasure.
      -Goblins with handweapon & shield
      -Night Goblins with spears
      -Orcs with spears
      -Savage Orcs with spears
      -Black Orcs with spears/shields&handweapon

      because for real, if we have Chaos Warriors and Chosen running wild with every weapon option, surely Black Orcs could also get a bit of love.
    • In case of Black Orcs however we also might wanna put a restriction in the game on how many we could have around. In the end, they are still a rather rare appearance and armies should be glad if they actually could muster one regiment of them. In TWW things work of course differently but still, some obstacle would be nice instead a Black Orc unit flood if they would get multiple weapon choices. Maybe the Tomb Kings have the right idea here, how most of their units have some restriction ties to buildings. I would not mind a similar approach as the the Tomb Guard has for Black Orcs. You will have limited use the smaller your territory is, but the more your territory grows and the more [building X] you build, the more you can unlock. Which still might not be enough to fit every stack with 6+ Black Orcs, but would allow for example one army to look like Grimgors 'ard Boyz or spread your Black Orcs over several stacks so they would be around, but still rather limited. On the other hand, as long as other armies also can buy unlimited endgame troops without restrictions, it is probably fine for "unlimited Black Orc Power"!
    • NETTERS!

      You hear sometimes asked about but for those that do not know: it was a unit upgrade that just made your NG unit tougher. So while we have a unit upgrade like Nasty Skulkers become a own thing and Netters were a thing with clubbers in the past, I see no real use for them as a own unit. At all. in these day and age and especially with TWW on my mind.
    • Feral Wyverns are also often requested for greenskins. There is a point to make here, that it would be a easy addition to the roster and since Orcs use Wyverns as mounts that's all some see. But I would argue that these beasts are rare and only the mightier Orcs do actually get one. They have to be raised from stolen eggs and basically be dominated into submission.

      So while I would be happy that every orcish Lord choice could get a Wyvern mount through skillpoint(s), I rather would not see Feral Wyverns. Greenskins do not dominate the skys and they can't just call Feral Wyvern to their aide, since those things are not as intelligent as Dragons for example.

      So if there would be a need to boost "flying" numbers, I would go as far and even allow every orcish hero to gather up a Wyvern mount (which they could not in TT). That would mean with time and effort a greenskin stack could include 2-3 Wyvern Riders who would give the desired flying units. But it is not just a easy late tier recruiting unit, and pure Goblin armies do not even get a chance in the first place. As it should be.


    Forgeworld


    White Dwarf/Citadel Journal/others
    • Back in 4th edition and beginning of 6th, Goblins were categorised in three categories

      That changed with the 6th armybook, were GW cut them down to Goblins & Nightgoblins [because "duh, we don't sell seperate Forest goblin regiments anymore and do not want to make a new plastic kit since everybody just used Nightgoblins anyway], which sticked until 8th edition. So even if 7th & 8th edition did bring new Forest Goblin miniatures to replace the old (Spider Riders, Arachnarok) they did not revive as "own" subculture, even if you kinda could still build themed armies around that if your were willing. Since the 8th edition still had the options to mount the Goblin Warboss on the gigantic spider or the Goblin Great Shaman on the Arachnarok, we can still argue that they are around. CA could basically just do what GW did not, and give them a proper treatment.
      -a own Lord/Hero lineup. Which could be arranged around a themed DLC with a own LL.
      -adding the already mentioned monstrous beast Spider cav as new unit.
      -adding regular Forest Goblin regiment options, maybe with poison attack due to their spider symbiosis and/or

      some special rules for dealing with forests (like Woodelves). Since it is their natural habitat.
      -utilizing the mentioned missing Arachnarok Web-Flinger as own warmachine with whatever rules?

    • Ogres [4th armybook]

      Got written out in 6th edition and were not really missed.
    • Squig Hunters [4th armybook]

      are a thing of the past. Like the already mentioned Clubbers&Netters. Since 6th edition we have squig herds instead of several Squighunter teams. And in TWW we do not even have the Nightgoblins with prodders, clubbers and whatever to chase the Squigs in the right direction. So I see no use for them, at all.
    • In 6th edition there was a short WD article for Goblin Ecology, which featured some alternate Goblin tribes for fun & feedback. Which might at least be noteworthy if CA ever needs more RoR. I think one regiment of them might not hurt ;)




      We also know of two more goblin related species, namely Hobgoblins (Chaos Dwarfs) and Gnoblars (Ogre Kingdoms). Both are more distant cousins and do not have any relevance for true Orcs&Goblin armies. The treacherous Hobgoblins are also to be killed on sight if you feel in the right mood. Noteworthy: Hobgoblins ≠ Gnoblars.
    • Fanatic Goblin Mortar [Warmaster]

    • Iron Orcs seemed to be a newer Orc variation featured slightly in WFRP.

    • Greater Cave Squig Herd [Storm of Magic]

      For "Storm of Magic", GW rolled up rules for "greater Cave Squigs" (like Gobbla) to be a own herd due to monster binding scrolls (so everyone could use them and buy miniatures). The main disgust for many people was even stronger squigs cheaper on the table without herders or their rampage explosion rules. Since TWW squigherds also have no herders to begin with, at least that would not be a problem and we could "go bigger" and deadlier with a Greater Cave Squig Herd.
    • Feral Gigantic Spiders [Storm of Magic]

      similar to above Squigherd, the "Storm of Magic" also allowed everyone to pay the price to use magical bound feral spiders. While for greenskins rather useless in case of regular ones or Arachnaroks, which we could better use in their ridden variants, the Gigantic Spiders however as feral Monstrous Beast unit could work (even if I would also rather see a ridden cavalry version here). Still something that would work well in a Forest Goblin themed army.
    • 6th edition "Storm of Chaos" featured several themed armylists to spice things up. One of them was "Grimgors 'Ardboyz", were the most badass Black Orc of all time got rid of everything "weak" in his army and then marched forth to headbutt Archaon into defeat like a badass. In his army was the new "Effigy", basicly a Idol of Gork or Mork to boost his troops.

      For TWW probably not the best choice but the idea of it might get maybe incorporated with Forgeworlds Rogue Idol?
      http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1440/01/1440018146742.pdf
    • Black Gobbo's Speshul Destryoa

    • Siege engine


    • Squigadon


      Known better from 40k
      https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-CA/Ork-Squiggoth
      which also has a bigger version
      https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-CA/Ork-Gargantuan-Squiggoth
    • We also have a lot of lore mentionings of other stuff. Wooden effigies, giant bests, Suqigasaurs, other troll variants, giant trolls...as example.

      But some things explain themselves with other stuff. Giant Trolls -> River Hag. Effigies of the gods -> Rogue Idol, etc. and we have already so much possible stuff that we do not need to hunt down various lore references to find something to add, like with other races ;)




    Skaven

    Armybook (7th)
    • [Lord]Verminlord

      Since they are greater Daemons of the Horned Rat (which basically is a lesser Chaos god), my guesswork would be that they might be implemented once Daemons of Chaos are in the game (and CA had decided how to deal with greater Daemons Lord or Rare-choice wise).
    • [Hero]Chieftain

    • [Mount]War Litter

    • [Mount]Giant Pox Rat

    • [Core]Giant Rats

    • [Core]Rat Swarms

      Since CA does not do swarms, never gonna happen.
    [Other stuff]
    • Poisonwind Mortar
    • Warp-Grinder
    • Great/Giant Pox Rats

      are a mount option for Plague Priests or Warlords. They probably could also work as a monstrous cavalry option, since the 8th edition was walking the "mostrous cav" path.


    Forgeworld


    White Dwarf/Citadel Journal/others
    • [Lord]Clan Eshin Sorceror; [Lord]Master Assassin; [Rare]Triad [Storm of Chaos 6th]
    • [Lord]Plaguelord [Lustria 6th]

    • [Lord]Plague Pontifex [Lustria 6th]

    • Cauldron of a Thousand Poxes [Lustria 6th]

    • [Hero]Festering Chantor [Lustria 6th]

    • [Lord]Warlock Master [armybook 6th]

    • [Lord]Master Mutator [armybook 6th]

    • [Hero]Master Moulder [armybook 6th]

    • [Hero]Harbringer of Mutation [armybook 6th]

    • Throtlings [WD#311]

    • Clan Moulder Rat Ogre variants [WD#311]

    • Trolls [WD#311]

      Let's be honest here, Rat Ogres are there so Trolls are just not really something Skaven would need. So for TWW highly unlikely.
    • Flayerkin [WD#311]

      We saw them also during "Storm of Chaos" as part of the WoC.
    • Aberration [WD#311]

      Probably obsolete since 7th edition brought the Abomination and we have the A-Bomb in TWW ;)
    • Burrowing Behemeoth [WD#311]

    • Chimaerat [WD#311]

    • Rat Riders [WD#317]

    • War-Doom Magma-cannon

      Special siege weapon from the "Blood in the Badlands" campaign book.
    • Warpstone Rat Tank [WD#245]

    • Stunty Shredder

    • Warpstone Thrower

      Kinda obsolete since Skaven got the Plagueclaw Catapult in 7th edition.
    • Bomb Rats

    • Stormfiends [The Endtimes 8th]

      Three (3) Ratling guns on a single R-Ogre, and now try to imagine a "regular sized" monstrous infantry unit with that kind of firepower while still maintaining the monstrous infantry melee capabilities for TWW. Insanity. Even if CA would do what GW never did and nerfed them a lot, the balancing would still be a mess. Better not to walk that path at all. And since TWW is not THE Endtimes, but a CA created Endtimes, hopefully they will be left out. Like most other Endtimes stuff.
    • Superhuge Doombell

    • Tunnel digging machines

      which might be a bit unlikely as active warmachines.



    The Empire
    Post edited by Red_Dox on
    Speculative future LL compilation (work in Progress)
    Missing units and other possible stuff (work in Progress)
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  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Posts: 2,735Registered Users
    edited January 26
    Tomb Kings

    Armybook (8th)
    • [Lord]Liche High Priest

      Lore of Nehekhara, Light, Death
    • [Hero]Herald / Icon Bearer

      Since CA does not really do banners and his army role without that is kinda a Tomb Prince, nothing to miss here.
    • [Special]Tomb Swarms

      CA does not do swarms, so not gonna happen.


    Forgeworld


    White Dwarf/Citadel Journal/others
    • Bolt Thrower [Warmaster]

    • The Living in Numas [Undead Collector Guide]

    • Mummies [4th edition]

      Before the Undead split and the way more refined Tomb Kings lore Mummy units were a thing. While today we rather have the Tomb Kings/Princes and Tomb Guard instead.
    • Bone ripped War-Barques

      I don't know an artwork, and there never was an actual miniature, but since 40k vamped its Necrons around that time into Space Khemri and they had those...
    • Morghast Harbringers [Endtimes]

    • Morghast Archai [Endtimes]

      As with all Endtimes units, better keep them out of TWW.
    • ???

      Artwork from Warhammer Online. Not sure if a Necroserpent variant or rather some new construct.



    Vampire Counts

    Warriors of Chaos

    Armybook (8th)

    For everyone not knowing already, CA has only put "WoC Undivided" in the current DLC. Pretty much everything related to the four gods, is currently missing. As we all assume for the simple reason to come later. Probably in game#3, with a overhaul to the WoC in general (or possible DLC for DLC?). If you do know nothing about the four major dark gods
    • [Lord]Daemon Prince

      What most Chaos Lords want to achieve: Daemonhood and immortality. Since the mortal Chaoswarriors are better lead by mortals, it is imho OK that he is missing. Especially since LLs basically are the playable Overlords and a DP would probably only bow for Archaon and not the rest. Also, the WoC DP was massivly overpowered in 8th edition TT (sadly way better then the Daemon DP counterpart who had less equipment and less special rules). Gamebreaking bad! So it might be a good thing that he is not included. Especially since he will be a better "generic" Lord choice for the Daemons of Chaos race, who also might come in game#3.

    • [Lord/Hero]Sorceror of Tzeentch

    • [Lord/Hero]Sorceror of Nurgle

    • [Lord/Hero]Sorceror of Slaanesh

      Of course these three would all come with their own magic lore specified to their god. Probably when the same Magic lores arrive with the DoC in game#3.
    • [Mount]Daemonic Steed
    • [Mount]Chaos Warshrine (see below)
    • [Mount]Flying Disc of Tzeentch

    • [Mount]Juggernaut of Khorne

    • [Mount]Steed of Slaanesh

    • [Mount]Palanquin of Nurgle

    • [Special]Hellstriders of Slaanesh

    • [Special]Chaos Ogres

      Really old miniatures, and since Trolls are the better Monstrous Infantry, probably obsolete. However Forgeworld had a newer limited miniature once.
    • [Special]Chimera

      Came with 8th edition to the armybook, most likeley as a "we have not sold enough during Storm of Magic" approach. For Total War Warhammer probably obsolete, since the feral Manticore fulfills the role.
    • [Special]Chaos Warshrine

    • [Rare] Marked Chaos Spawns

    • [Rare]Skullcrushers of Khorne

    • [Rare]Slaughterbrute

    • [Rare]Mutalith Vortex Beast


      [Other stuff]
    • Chaos marks. Pretty much everything Chaos Warrior or Marauder can bear a mark of a specific god to pledge allegiance and benefit from the dark gifts of his master.

      How CA will implement god allegiance, we have to wait and see. The Norsca DLC with shrines could have been a prototype for that. In the end, we have to wait and see if marked troops rather will be new units to be added or if the current roster can get "upgraded" for various gods. That would probably also decide if the troops rather get different looks based on their gods (various helmets, shields, weapons)

      or rather a different paintscheme at best ;)



    Forgeworld


    White Dwarf/Citadel Journal/others
    • Flayerkin [Storm of Chaos 6th]

      As a special siege unit worth an idea but I think the concept of them could also work for a regular unit flaying around the battlefield if needed more troops for the roster.
    • Putrid Blightkings [The Endtimes 8th]

      new ogre-sized Nurgle warriors (but did not count as monstrous infantry) to go along with special char Gutrot Spume. As with basically all Endtimes stuff, it might be better to leave them out...
    • ...but AoS added Blightlords

      and they ride on the Nurgle drones. Daemons of Chaos will get their drones, since they existed already then in WHFB. But they did not yet transfer over to the WoC then. Since the WoC armybook already covers mortal troops on demonic mounts as units and for characters, the drones would be just the next step in the evolution of the next armybook/update. Except that the world was destroyed with "The (horrible) Endtimes". I actually would like to see the drones in the WoC roster as mounts. I doubt you have to be a Blightking/Blightlord to ride them, normal warriors should be able to do the trick (like with Juggernauts).
    • While on the topic of god-specific cavlary on demonic mounts, Slaanesh & Khorne are save. Nurgle as mentioned should get the drones for regular Chaos Warriors. That leaves Tzeentch as the only one without something, and that is stupid. In AoS, there are now Tzaangors who ride flying Discs. And since WoC Lords/Heroes can also ride Flying Discs of Tzeentch (since forever), the logical step would be to just put a regular unit of Chaos Knights or Marauders on flying discs to swirl around and wreck havoc. Probably not as powerful as Juggernauts or Plague Drones, but that problem also have Slaanesh seekers. Those at least have a way greater speed to offer, so speed+flying for disc riders could also work.
    • Skullreapers [The Endtimes 8th]

    • Wrathmongers [The Endtimes 8th]

      Same as with Blightkings, those two were boosted to Ogre size and stats (but did still not count as monstrous infantry) to do more melee dmg then regular Khorne Warriors. But without actual being MI, they got majorly screwd by 8th edition rules. Which of course GW did not care for, since that was their "final sale" before AoS and it was all about money anyway. As with other Endtimes stuff, we could live without them. Which might actually also be a better choice since Slaanesh & Tzeentch have no counterparts (also not in AoS afaik). So better no one gets those troops instead of just half the gods.
    • Doom Engine (Advanced Rulebook 8th)

    • [Lord/Hero]Dragon Ogre [4th armbyook]


      The Lord might rather be replaced through later editions Shaggoth.
    • Chaos Emperor Dragon

      If there would be an actual need for a even bigger Dragon.



    Wood Elves
    Post edited by Red_Dox on
    Speculative future LL compilation (work in Progress)
    Missing units and other possible stuff (work in Progress)
    Flag · 2Like
  • BiesBies Junior Member Posts: 1,817Registered Users
    at last some love for DE from @Red_Dox ;)


    "I shivered at the sight of her - her beauty far beyond that of mortal man. But her soul glowed with an inner darkness that chilled my very core."









    Flag · 2Like
  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Posts: 981Registered Users
    I can only see the Beastmen, Dark Elves, Skaven and warriors of chaos units. Is it supposed to be like that? Why are the other races listed?
    Flag · Like
  • PaulHPaulH Posts: 1,350Registered Users
    Aram_thehead said:

    I can only see the Beastmen, Dark Elves, Skaven and warriors of chaos units. Is it supposed to be like that? Why are the other races listed?

    I believe it's a work in progress
    Flag · Like
  • dodge33cymrudodge33cymru Posts: 1,860Registered Users
    Good effort, well researched.

    Personally, I don't like the use of the word 'missing', as that implies it's by error rather than design, whereas an awful lot of those things mentioned have been purposely left out or perhaps updated. I see TWW as a kind of '9th edition', so even 8th edition TT units should be able to be cut (especially some of the weaker ones in lore terms) and replaced without huge outcry, especially for units barely used in TT circles.

    Hopefully (entirely my opinion) this means no lion chariot or the flying bolt thrower thing for HE and these can be swapped out for improved and more thematic units, but IMO CA shouldn't be 100% restricted by GW's past mistakes when it's a good opportunity to fix them.

    For example, IMO the minotaur general (Doombull) for Beastmen makes little sense for me; the upgraded Gorebull is the damage dealer its role was intended to be.

    Anyway, good list and for sure people can choose their favourites and hope for them - but don't think CA is doing any disservice by omitting the odd unit or character.

    For example, to me, HE would hugely benefit from lord-level mages, which were a TT staple and fit their theme perfectly. At the moment, they are arguably weaker than the likes of DE and Empire when it comes to powerful generic caster generals, which really doesn't fit. But others may disagree with that and see it as an improvement. So let's hear it, civilly.
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  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Posts: 1,391Registered Users
    Good stuff. I hope you manage this. It would make an excellent chapter in the Red_Dox Encyclopedia of Warhammer-y goodness.
    Flag · 2Like
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,849Registered Users
    edited November 2019
    Saying Stormfiends should be left out because they're ET doesn't fly as an excuse. They already included ET story beats anyway, like the mortarchs, so their statement isn't absolute (not to speak of them also including ET RoRs for the Empire as well).

    They are a valid Skaven unit choice and they should be included.

    Flag · 3Like
  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 5,480Registered Users
    edited November 2019
    Syreen hero choice, Bone Hydra, Sea Giant and some variation(s) on Rotting Leviathan other than a crab for Vampire Coast?

    Or would adding anything to Vampire Coast be too disgusting to you guys?
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
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  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,564Registered Users
    Crossil said:

    Syreen hero choice, Bone Hydra, Sea Giant and some variation(s) on Rotting Leviathan other than a crab for Vampire Coast?

    Or would adding anything to Vampire Coast be too disgusting to you guys?

    Only the Ghost Sea Giant strikes my fancy for the Coast at the moment.... Ghost Giant sounds like an interesting choice.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

    Flag · Like
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,404Registered Users
    Crossil said:

    Syreen hero choice, Bone Hydra, Sea Giant and some variation(s) on Rotting Leviathan other than a crab for Vampire Coast?

    Or would adding anything to Vampire Coast be too disgusting to you guys?

    Just seems like a waste of a slot to me, there is so much potential stuff for Major factions (and even Norsca could get something added) that unless this is extremely late in game 3's cycle CA should treat them as complete, because they really don't need anything imo.
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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,618Registered Users
    The Warlock Master was pretty much the tabletop equivalent of the generic lord choice that came with Prophet & Warlock. Rules were different because the rules for Warlock Engineers were very different in 6E, but it's just a lord level Warlock Engineer.
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  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 5,480Registered Users
    Goatforce said:

    Crossil said:

    Syreen hero choice, Bone Hydra, Sea Giant and some variation(s) on Rotting Leviathan other than a crab for Vampire Coast?

    Or would adding anything to Vampire Coast be too disgusting to you guys?

    Just seems like a waste of a slot to me, there is so much potential stuff for Major factions (and even Norsca could get something added) that unless this is extremely late in game 3's cycle CA should treat them as complete, because they really don't need anything imo.
    The thread is missing units, including lore text that just mentions some creatures, so why would Vampire Coast not be included in those lists?
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
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  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,404Registered Users
    Crossil said:

    Goatforce said:

    Crossil said:

    Syreen hero choice, Bone Hydra, Sea Giant and some variation(s) on Rotting Leviathan other than a crab for Vampire Coast?

    Or would adding anything to Vampire Coast be too disgusting to you guys?

    Just seems like a waste of a slot to me, there is so much potential stuff for Major factions (and even Norsca could get something added) that unless this is extremely late in game 3's cycle CA should treat them as complete, because they really don't need anything imo.
    The thread is missing units, including lore text that just mentions some creatures, so why would Vampire Coast not be included in those lists?
    Ah, I didn't realise, this is what happens when you have too many tabs left open at once pretty much all day I guess!
    Flag · Like
  • Xenos7Xenos7 Posts: 5,176Registered Users
    So many missing units, it's a shame...
    Flag · Like
  • DerPhonixDerPhonix Senior Member Posts: 426Registered Users
    Love this threads. Will be coming back regularly and post some units myself/.
    Flag · Like
  • fireatwill4fireatwill4 Posts: 185Registered Users
    No mention of the lothern skycutter? For shame.
    Flag · Like
  • SakuraHeinzSakuraHeinz Junior Member Posts: 2,258Registered Users
    The slaanesh units are delicious ԅ(º﹃ºԅ)
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  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,564Registered Users
    @Red_Dox

    I'd suggest that the Incarnate Elemental of Beasts from the Monstrous Arcanum bests fits the Beastmen
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

    Flag · Like
  • dodge33cymrudodge33cymru Posts: 1,860Registered Users
    fireatwill4 said:

    No mention of the lothern skycutter? For shame.

    He’s not done HE yet. That said, the less said about the skycutter the better. Would happily see that consigned to GW’s Mistake Bin.
    Xenos7 said:

    So many missing units, it's a shame...

    It’s not a shame. When we’re picking single lines out of army books and white dwarf supplements from decades ago to compile a list, I see that as a testament to TWW, not a negative.

    Red Dox has pulled together a great list of potential units, but we shouldn’t expect them all or consider them ‘missing’ IMO.
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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,618Registered Users
    OdTengri said:

    @Red_Dox

    I'd suggest that the Incarnate Elemental of Beasts from the Monstrous Arcanum bests fits the Beastmen

    Not really. It seems that Incarnate Elementals of Beasts are something that any Beasts spellcaster of sufficient power can invoke, if they're willing to follow the proper ritual (so... probably not High Elves). No race seems to have any special kinship to them, and both Bray-Shamans and Amber Wizards are listed as possible summoners.

    I don't think everything in Monstrous Arcanum needs to be shoehorned into a race - we should really only be adding something if there is a strong connection to that race. For instance, Perytons are not just listed as having Kinship with Beastmen, but their fluff also suggests that perytons were ultimately created by Beastmen shamans corrupting Great Stags. Conversely, Wyverns are also listed as having "Kinship" with Beastmen, but with all their fluff pointing towards the greenskin relationship, I wouldn't pack wyverns into Beastmen, even if there are probably times in Warhammer's history where it's happened.
    Flag · Like
  • ron1404nlron1404nl Junior Member Posts: 248Registered Users
    Wow really well made and a pleasure to read through, thanks @Red_Dox
    Flag · Like
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Posts: 2,735Registered Users
    edited November 2019
    So, should have wrapped up now WoC. Next would be going over my Greenskins error list again and see if I finally could locate the problem or have to spend a hour to copy&paste everything again -.-

    In general towards the question if something is really "missing" or not, that is imo not that difficult. For example the whole god specific stuff form WoC is indeed missing. It is clear that stuff will come later, around game#3 with DoC impacting the game and that leaving everything out to just have WoC Undivided for game#1 since a lot of people bitched about no playable Chaos at all was a distinctive choice. Still, despite a logical explaination why, it is not there. If I steal 5 bucks out of your pocket they will be missing also, no matter if you think you lost them or someone would have stolen them or actually know Who and Why it got stolen ;) So imo everything from arymbooks not covered, either because whatever reasons (Beastmen) or deliberately left out to sell with DLC later (the whole core race + rival DLC agenda) can actually be considered missing. While other stuff from older editions (like Empire War Waggon) or actual Forgeworld stuff would rather be optional anyway. Might be personally missed by people (I want my Colossal Squig and Squig Gobba!) but from the armybook point of view, not really "missing".

    Topic Vampire Coast and "missing" stuff, that actually will be a tricky collection since CA already made a whole lot up compared to the meager armylist. I probably will prefer first dealing with the actual 15 armybook races + Chaos Dwarfs before I would dabble with Norsca & Zombie Pirates. Top of my mind there is esepcially for the pirates also not that much stuff. Ghost Sea Giant does not even ring a bell. Was that some obscure lore reference?
    Aram_thehead said:

    I can only see the Beastmen, Dark Elves, Skaven and warriors of chaos units. Is it supposed to be like that? Why are the other races listed?

    fireatwill4 said:

    No mention of the lothern skycutter? For shame.

    I would assume they miss more then just the Skycutter but I have not even started on them or other races, so for now there is just nothing to see there. Some day in the future, if I not get hit by a bus after winning the lottery, hopefully every race should be covered as best as I see fit.
    OdTengri said:

    @Red_Dox

    I'd suggest that the Incarnate Elemental of Beasts from the Monstrous Arcanum bests fits the Beastmen

    Kinda had that rather planned in for Woodelves, but could probably also work for BoC. Might add in the next round I fiddle there.

    ------Red Dox
    Speculative future LL compilation (work in Progress)
    Missing units and other possible stuff (work in Progress)
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  • fireatwill4fireatwill4 Posts: 185Registered Users
    edited November 2019
    dodge33cymru said:


    Would happily see that consigned to GW’s Mistake Bin.

    Oh I know people consider its design silly, I personally like it, but that's my opinion. On the other hand the utility of flying artillery cannot be denied even if it would have a much shorter range its flexibility of manouver would make up for it.

    Flag · 1Like
  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 5,480Registered Users
    edited November 2019
    Red_Dox said:

    Topic Vampire Coast and "missing" stuff, that actually will be a tricky collection since CA already made a whole lot up compared to the meager armylist. I probably will prefer first dealing with the actual 15 armybook races + Chaos Dwarfs before I would dabble with Norsca & Zombie Pirates. Top of my mind there is esepcially for the pirates also not that much stuff. Ghost Sea Giant does not even ring a bell. Was that some obscure lore reference?

    Bone Hydra, Sea Giant and Leechwyrm are creatures from Dreadfleet that could appear on the seas that could attack ships but Noctilus was able to control them. Seems sensible that they could be added.

    Looking at the Coast's army list the only thing "missing" would be the Syreen hero choice and, arguably, you could say some more versions of Rotting Leviathan.

    Norsca didn't even touch the CJ list so suffice to say it isn't really a source to rely on. But Flayerkin and Curd'd Ettin fit.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
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  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,564Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    OdTengri said:

    @Red_Dox

    I'd suggest that the Incarnate Elemental of Beasts from the Monstrous Arcanum bests fits the Beastmen

    Not really. It seems that Incarnate Elementals of Beasts are something that any Beasts spellcaster of sufficient power can invoke, if they're willing to follow the proper ritual (so... probably not High Elves). No race seems to have any special kinship to them, and both Bray-Shamans and Amber Wizards are listed as possible summoners.
    EVERYTHING ⁽ᴺᵉᵃʳˡʸ⁾ In the Monstrous Arcanum belongs to one reace or another.
    Draxynnic said:

    I don't think everything in Monstrous Arcanum needs to be shoehorned into a race - we should really only be adding something if there is a strong connection to that race.

    I'm not saying everything should, clearly not everything listed by Red Dox could or should make it in the game but I'd say that the Incarnate Elemental of BEASTS is worth considering and that it fits the BEASTmen better than most.

    I'd still rather have a Preyton, Jabber, Ghorgon, Marked Chaos Beastmen, and everything from their last armybook more... But I'd take it before the Spinebeast or Giant Chaos Spawn.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

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  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,564Registered Users
    Crossil said:

    Norsca didn't even touch the CJ list so suffice to say it isn't really a source to rely on. But Flayerkin and Curd'd Ettin fit.

    Norsca probably has an entire DLC worth of stuff or more that "could" be added.

    Fimir Meargh - Wizard Lord
    Wolf Jarl - Wereskin Lord
    Valkyrie - Defensive Hero

    Curs'd Ettin
    Bearstruck (Berserkers?)
    Valkyries
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

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  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,564Registered Users
    Red_Dox said:

    OdTengri said:

    @Red_Dox

    I'd suggest that the Incarnate Elemental of Beasts from the Monstrous Arcanum bests fits the Beastmen

    Kinda had that rather planned in for Woodelves, but could probably also work for BoC. Might add in the next round I fiddle there.

    ------Red Dox
    That I could totally see, The Elemental of Beasts is very Kurnous
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

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  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,564Registered Users
    Red_Dox said:


    While on the topic of god-specific cavlary on demonic mounts, Slaanesh & Khorne are save. Nurgle as mentioned should get the drones for regular Chaos Warriors. That leaves Tzeentch as the only one without something, and that is stupid. In AoS, there are now Tzaangors who ride flying Discs. And since WoC Lords/Heroes can also ride Flying Discs of Tzeentch (since forever), the logical step would be to just put a regular unit of Chaos Knights or Marauders on flying discs to swirl around and wreck havoc. Probably not as powerful as Juggernauts or Plague Drones, but that problem also have Slaanesh seekers. Those at least have a way greater speed to offer, so speed+flying for disc riders could also work.

    For Tzeentch I actually wouldn't try to give Marauders or Chaos Warrior Disks of Tzeentch to make their mounted equivalent. Instead I'd give them a Marauder/Chaos Warrior version of The Burning Chariot of Tzeentch. Obviously without an Exalted Flamer it wouldn't be a Flamethrower Chariot but with a couple Devotes of Tzeentch it could make an interesting Flying Melee Chariot. It's a little different but I think most wold agree that Disks of Tzeentch would be a bit underwhelming.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

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