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This is Why We Can't Have Nice Things

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  • TheGuardianOfMetal#3661TheGuardianOfMetal#3661 Senior Member GermanyRegistered Users Posts: 14,701
    Xenos7 said:

    Sephlock said:

    Sephlock said:

    How dare people don't like the things i like and criticize them.
    Haven't seen a single person who complains about we're getting another womz in our Vidya games.

    I've seen quite a few misogynistic comments and there have been quite a few comments deleted because of it. It's not as bad as it has been and certainly not everyone irked by Joan is under that banner, but her being a woman isn't an uncommon part of the criticism.
    Show one
    There was one that I saw that was vaguely sort of maybe like that if you stretch, but it was more against people like OP than women in general.
    Find any threat featuring Cylostra or Aranessa and the former will be called a whale and the latter be called out for lack of feminity. It's really not hard to find and it takes selective memory to forget about this in the first place.
    Both of those are accurate though...

    It's funny how almost all female characters are judged by how they measure up to some ideal of prettiness. Witch Elves are complained about because they have defined muscles, Damsels are complained about because they don't wear tons of makeup into battle, Cylostra is complained about because she's fat (although that's something that supports a singing career) and Aranessa is complained about because a hands-on pirate queen isn't so overly concerned about her sex appeal.

    Why does that stuff matter in the first place?
    Damsels aren't complaint about because they don't wear tons of Make up but because they look like ~60 years+


    OK, I can only presume you avert your eyes whenever you meet a woman over 30 because that's definitely not what a 60 year old woman looks like.


    or to take an upgraded Damsel (aka Prophetess)



    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    And Louen is how many years old?
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited November 2019
    Xenos7 said:

    Sephlock said:

    Sephlock said:

    How dare people don't like the things i like and criticize them.
    Haven't seen a single person who complains about we're getting another womz in our Vidya games.

    I've seen quite a few misogynistic comments and there have been quite a few comments deleted because of it. It's not as bad as it has been and certainly not everyone irked by Joan is under that banner, but her being a woman isn't an uncommon part of the criticism.
    Show one
    There was one that I saw that was vaguely sort of maybe like that if you stretch, but it was more against people like OP than women in general.
    Find any threat featuring Cylostra or Aranessa and the former will be called a whale and the latter be called out for lack of feminity. It's really not hard to find and it takes selective memory to forget about this in the first place.
    Both of those are accurate though...

    It's funny how almost all female characters are judged by how they measure up to some ideal of prettiness. Witch Elves are complained about because they have defined muscles, Damsels are complained about because they don't wear tons of makeup into battle, Cylostra is complained about because she's fat (although that's something that supports a singing career) and Aranessa is complained about because a hands-on pirate queen isn't so overly concerned about her sex appeal.

    Why does that stuff matter in the first place?
    Damsels aren't complaint about because they don't wear tons of Make up but because they look like ~60 years+


    OK, I can only presume you avert your eyes whenever you meet a woman over 30 because that's definitely not what a 60 year old woman looks like.

    Is that supposed to prove anything? Except showing that it's indeed all about "WHY DA WOMENZ NOT HAWT?"
  • HisShadowBG#8316HisShadowBG#8316 Registered Users Posts: 3,437
    Furthermore


    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • BabyYetiBabyYeti RussiaRegistered Users Posts: 376
    edited November 2019
    OdTengri said:

    Kirkwald said:

    But I digress, let's instead talk on why it's such a great tragedy that our maiden Repanse doesn't have her banner.

    I agree probably the biggest tragedy of the whole Repanse FLC... Like if your gonna do her, despite some obvious reasons why not (like being dead for 500 years) do her right. I want a BIG BEAUTIFUL BANNER common CA you can do it BUILD ME A BIG BEAUTIFUL BANNER, and I want my Magic Resistance.
    I think with one-handed sword and giant banner she will look awful. Lance with small attached banner + shield makes more sense. And actually her TT model looks really bad, I like CA's adaptation and I'm okay with her two-handed sword without giant banner.
    Post edited by BillyRuffian#6250 on
  • KirkwaldKirkwald Registered Users Posts: 947
    edited November 2019

    Xenos7 said:

    Sephlock said:

    Sephlock said:

    How dare people don't like the things i like and criticize them.
    Haven't seen a single person who complains about we're getting another womz in our Vidya games.

    I've seen quite a few misogynistic comments and there have been quite a few comments deleted because of it. It's not as bad as it has been and certainly not everyone irked by Joan is under that banner, but her being a woman isn't an uncommon part of the criticism.
    Show one
    There was one that I saw that was vaguely sort of maybe like that if you stretch, but it was more against people like OP than women in general.
    Find any threat featuring Cylostra or Aranessa and the former will be called a whale and the latter be called out for lack of feminity. It's really not hard to find and it takes selective memory to forget about this in the first place.
    Both of those are accurate though...

    It's funny how almost all female characters are judged by how they measure up to some ideal of prettiness. Witch Elves are complained about because they have defined muscles, Damsels are complained about because they don't wear tons of makeup into battle, Cylostra is complained about because she's fat (although that's something that supports a singing career) and Aranessa is complained about because a hands-on pirate queen isn't so overly concerned about her sex appeal.

    Why does that stuff matter in the first place?
    Damsels aren't complaint about because they don't wear tons of Make up but because they look like ~60 years+


    OK, I can only presume you avert your eyes whenever you meet a woman over 30 because that's definitely not what a 60 year old woman looks like.

    Is that supposed to prove anything? Except showing that it's indeed all about "WHY DA WOMENZ NOT HAWT?"
    But that's literally their lore. Damsels are magically enchanted to be forever young and beautiful.
  • SeanJeanquoi#3490SeanJeanquoi#3490 Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    @Crossil

    The difference is I have the perspective of having been on the in group and the out group.

    Your take is mostly accurate but I'd argue it's skin deep.

    Firstly, they don't just use it to express rage, they use it to attack people as well, just not necessarily those particular groups.

    Secondly, you yourself created a divide between gamers and "outsiders" implying that gamers aren't woman, arent people of colour and aren't LGBTQ, etc. This is a part of the issue because If any one of those "outsiders" wanders into a gaming space things are going to get real heated real fast. Alot of gaming spaces are borderline uninhabitable for certain groups because of this ethos.

    Third: while gamers don't necessarily mean it on the surface, like I said in my OP: your actions have consequences and that includes what you say. These gamers might not actually be racist or misogynist personally, but reinforcing bad stereotypes, using these things as a derogatory term in every setting on a daily basis and so on, reinforces these bad stereotypes, it doesn't make these things less bad or the words less derogatory, it only desensitizes you and your group to those words.

    Fourth (this is more directed at OdTengi's point but you don't defeat bigotry by making it a part of everyday speech. Racists and the like, feel far more comfortable in the gaming community at large than "outsiders" do, because bigoted speech is normalised to the point where it's become an everyday derogatory term.

    Fifth: it's an ethos that's bad for your average gamer, nevermind "outsiders" it's a dialect based on aggression, where everyone basically bullies eachother even in casual speech amongst friends.

    Also, what is derogatory to you? When you turn a whole group of people into a casual insult, something you don't want to be compared to, how is that not in itself a bad thing to do? Sure, alot of these insults have been commonplace for decades but you can't escape where they come from and what they mean. The fact of the matter is that, if we do normalise these kinds of insults or promote an ethos where using them negatively is accepted as normal, we are always going to be sh*tting on those same groups. There are no insults for being straight, there are no real harsh insults for being white. It's always "the outsiders that will be the butt of the joke, whether you mean it or not.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Kirkwald said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Sephlock said:

    Sephlock said:

    How dare people don't like the things i like and criticize them.
    Haven't seen a single person who complains about we're getting another womz in our Vidya games.

    I've seen quite a few misogynistic comments and there have been quite a few comments deleted because of it. It's not as bad as it has been and certainly not everyone irked by Joan is under that banner, but her being a woman isn't an uncommon part of the criticism.
    Show one
    There was one that I saw that was vaguely sort of maybe like that if you stretch, but it was more against people like OP than women in general.
    Find any threat featuring Cylostra or Aranessa and the former will be called a whale and the latter be called out for lack of feminity. It's really not hard to find and it takes selective memory to forget about this in the first place.
    Both of those are accurate though...

    It's funny how almost all female characters are judged by how they measure up to some ideal of prettiness. Witch Elves are complained about because they have defined muscles, Damsels are complained about because they don't wear tons of makeup into battle, Cylostra is complained about because she's fat (although that's something that supports a singing career) and Aranessa is complained about because a hands-on pirate queen isn't so overly concerned about her sex appeal.

    Why does that stuff matter in the first place?
    Damsels aren't complaint about because they don't wear tons of Make up but because they look like ~60 years+


    OK, I can only presume you avert your eyes whenever you meet a woman over 30 because that's definitely not what a 60 year old woman looks like.

    Is that supposed to prove anything? Except showing that it's indeed all about "WHY DA WOMENZ NOT HAWT?"
    But that's literally their lore. Damsels are magically enchanted to be forever young and beautiful.
    Not everyone thinks "young and beautful" = "slathered in mascara and lipstick" as the "beautification" mod does.
  • SeanJeanquoi#3490SeanJeanquoi#3490 Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    @OdTengri

    Yes, I'm aware that gamers of all kinds partake in this, thats because it's an ethos; it's not the actions or behaviour of a few bad eggs it's the environment of most of the gaming community in general. It doesn't make you a bad person for doing it, doesn't make you bigoted for doing it but that doesn't mean it isn't creating a bad environment, normalising this stuff etc.
  • Canuovea#6291Canuovea#6291 Registered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 15,970
    Well, the politics has come on out. I have considered closing it, but rather I think it is best moved to chat.
    -Forum Terms and Conditions: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
    -New Rules: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/287645/new-forum-rules#latest
    -Rules FAQ: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/287650/total-war-forum-faq#latest
    -Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Please don't.
    -5.7 Summon a moderator if someone seems to be out of line, or use the report button. Do NOT become another party to misbehaviour
  • SeanJeanquoi#3490SeanJeanquoi#3490 Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    Canuovea said:

    Well, the politics has come on out. I have considered closing it, but rather I think it is best moved to chat.

    I appreciate you not coming down hard on us for it. Its not where I intended this to go, but discussion has been relatively relaxed despite the subject matters.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927

    Firstly, they don't just use it to express rage, they use it to attack people as well, just not necessarily those particular groups.

    And these two things can't be differentiated? As I said you're incapable of giving people the benefit of the doubt. Even if I admit that it's used to attack in general so what? You just showed that case isn't racist. Aggression however I'd argue isn't inherently bad.

    Secondly, you yourself created a divide between gamers and "outsiders" implying that gamers aren't woman, arent people of colour and aren't LGBTQ, etc. This is a part of the issue because If any one of those "outsiders" wanders into a gaming space things are going to get real heated real fast. Alot of gaming spaces are borderline uninhabitable for certain groups because of this ethos.

    OK, and when did I say outsiders denoted women, gays, blacks, etc.? When I say outsiders I mean mainstream individuals who don't play games or know how people on internet communicate and any politically motivated individuals who gain points from demonizing gamers. You're already judging me here and twisting my words to sit with your cause. And I face this a lot.

    Third: while gamers don't necessarily mean it on the surface, like I said in my OP: your actions have consequences and that includes what you say. These gamers might not actually be racist or misogynist personally, but reinforcing bad stereotypes, using these things as a derogatory term in every setting on a daily basis and so on, reinforces these bad stereotypes, it doesn't make these things less bad or the words less derogatory, it only desensitizes you and your group to those words.

    I can differentiate fine among these things and I'd say majority can. This argument about it being inherently bad just serves to divide rather than understand.

    And actions have consequences but who determines the consequences? Who determines even what I said? People who want to do that will judge me not on what I mean but on what I say. Why would I care about them?

    Fourth (this is more directed at OdTengi's point but you don't defeat bigotry by making it a part of everyday speech. Racists and the like, feel far more comfortable in the gaming community at large than "outsiders" do, because bigoted speech is normalised to the point where it's become an everyday derogatory term.

    Again, it's not a derogatory term because it isn't used with that intent. How can something be derogatory if I use it indiscriminately and without malicious intent? I can say f*ck in many different scenarios, even casually, so what do you mean it's necessarily bad? Better yet, black people say the word they apparently dislike more often than anyone else. Are they normalizing racism? ****, if connotations are determined by the skin color then it's racist to say they can. Now go and tell them they can't say it.

    Fifth: it's an ethos that's bad for your average gamer, nevermind "outsiders" it's a dialect based on aggression, where everyone basically bullies eachother even in casual speech amongst friends.

    It's bad to people who like to smear us constantly, not because it's inherently bad. How about this, swear words and taboos have a social role. To be able to say these things to a friend and for both of us to know what we mean is an internal developed relation between us. It is a mark of comradeship and understanding. You can't tell me that friends can't be rough amongst themselves without calling that inherently harmful.

    Also, what is derogatory to you? When you turn a whole group of people into a casual insult, something you don't want to be compared to, how is that not in itself a bad thing to do? Sure, alot of these insults have been commonplace for decades but you can't escape where they come from and what they mean. The fact of the matter is that, if we do normalise these kinds of insults or promote an ethos where using them negatively is accepted as normal, we are always going to be sh*tting on those same groups. There are no insults for being straight, there are no real harsh insults for being white. It's always "the outsiders that will be the butt of the joke, whether you mean it or not.

    And who determines what it means? N word has become a general insult that bears no connection to black people on the internet, so how is it exactly still to be considered a . You can argue some people can't or don't want to distinguish between them so why should I care for those close minded individuals? I can understand someone feeling uneasy but they can try to see if it really is someone attacking them or not.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • #254403#254403 Registered Users Posts: 2,102

    How dare people don't like the things i like and criticize them.
    Haven't seen a single person who complains about we're getting another womz in our Vidya games.

    I've seen quite a few misogynistic comments and there have been quite a few comments deleted because of it. It's not as bad as it has been and certainly not everyone irked by Joan is under that banner, but her being a woman isn't an uncommon part of the criticism.
    Show one
    This was after a string of misogynistic comments.

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/254906/why-repanse-instead-of-bohemond-and-tancred/p1


    No one is saying it's the predominant type of argument against Repanse. The line of "Why are we getting a woman over a man" with clear implications is certainly prevalent.
    Coherence =/= mysogyny.

    If we prefer an ALIVE male character over a DEAD female character, it isn't because we hate women and we don't want female characters in the game. We have no problem with adding female characters. Indeed, there are plenty of female LOREFRIENDLY candidates to come who can bring diversity and improve the game.

    The fact they have brought a DEAD female candidate instead of ALIVE male candidates says evrything.

    Now you can delete my comment, but truth can't be denied.
  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,231

    Fourth (this is more directed at OdTengi's point but you don't defeat bigotry by making it a part of everyday speech. Racists and the like, feel far more comfortable in the gaming community at large than "outsiders" do, because bigoted speech is normalised to the point where it's become an everyday derogatory term.

    No no you really do... There are numerous words that I cant use on this forum and the reasoning behind it stems from racist attitudes that started in England some time after 1066. Not a single person is aware that those words are verboten because of racism nor do they take those words omission from every day speech as some form of racial oppression.

    The meanings of words change, their context changes. Sorry your not able to see that but as the general negative animus towards those groups of people dissolve they're is a very real likely hood that the word will remain and continue to be negative words. They just won't have anything to do with specific groups of people any more.

    Fifth: it's an ethos that's bad for your average gamer, nevermind "outsiders" it's a dialect based on aggression, where everyone basically bullies eachother even in casual speech amongst friends.

    Oh F off you worry wort.... don't tell me how to express comradery, love and friendship. That's our relationship, that's our friendship. Your not part of that in group and seeing as how you titter on you probably would never be invited.

    Also, what is derogatory to you? When you turn a whole group of people into a casual insult, something you don't want to be compared to, how is that not in itself a bad thing to do?

    The simple answer is that we're not turning "a whole group of people into a casual insult" when a queer friend of mine calls me a F*g in anger they aren't denigrating gay people, they aren't expressing their negative opinion on gay people, they're just expressing frustration. My sexuality and hetero-normaitvity isn't being questioned or challenged. Neither they nor I am really saying anything about homosexuality.

    Pesonally I just think its really sad that you've never just been so close with someone different than yourself to understand what I'm talking about.

    Sure, alot of these insults have been commonplace for decades but you can't escape where they come from and what they mean. The fact of the matter is that, if we do normalise these kinds of insults or promote an ethos where using them negatively is accepted as normal, we are always going to be sh*tting on those same groups.

    You clearly don't understand how these things actually work. Just look at how many times we've had to change the "PC" term for Black here in america, ****, Colored, Person of Color, African American.... The racism didn't go away because we changed the name, and so long as the racism persisted many new names became a slurs unto themselves.

    You know @SeanJeanquoi I was taking public transit a while back and a young hispanic man came up to his black friend and said "whats up my N*ger and they slapped hands gave hugs and where truly happy to see one another, and then some 50 year old ham beast of a cracker butted in and berated them with her bul **** morality and language policing. Two young people of color expressing love for one another with a dumb wht btch butting in with her wht imperialism. Or at least that's one way to look at it.
  • Nyxilis#3646Nyxilis#3646 Registered Users Posts: 7,726

    Nyxilis said:

    @TheGuardianOfMetal

    Yup and I agree like I said, I wasn't saying the damsels are fine. Take another look at what I said.

    the fact that i wasn't talking abotu the rest should actually signlar that i at least somewhat agree with it.

    Though i think the big issue with the Witch Elves is/was, that the stomach muscles feel a bit over defined combined with the lack of muscles on the rest of hte model, making them stick out quite a bit. Maybe if they had been more subdued it would've worked better
    Bet you didn't look at all the half naked norscan models to make these same levels of complaints. Lol
    there is a certain difference between the overmuscled Barbarian trope, where the whole dude is muscled and the Witch Elves where there are no muscles except for the incredibly ripped Stomach


    Ha ha ha ha, thank you for proving my point. Whining about the slight definitions on bellies you'd never see half the time in a RTS only to then post people that have impossibly barrelled chests that if you ever met in real life you'd more worry they have some sort of medical condition or mutant.

    Yet complain about the female proportions and realism. The worst part about the absurd duality of it is how clueless the posters are when they say it with a straight face.
  • #254403#254403 Registered Users Posts: 2,102
    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    @TheGuardianOfMetal

    Yup and I agree like I said, I wasn't saying the damsels are fine. Take another look at what I said.

    the fact that i wasn't talking abotu the rest should actually signlar that i at least somewhat agree with it.

    Though i think the big issue with the Witch Elves is/was, that the stomach muscles feel a bit over defined combined with the lack of muscles on the rest of hte model, making them stick out quite a bit. Maybe if they had been more subdued it would've worked better
    Bet you didn't look at all the half naked norscan models to make these same levels of complaints. Lol
    there is a certain difference between the overmuscled Barbarian trope, where the whole dude is muscled and the Witch Elves where there are no muscles except for the incredibly ripped Stomach


    Ha ha ha ha, thank you for proving my point. Whining about the slight definitions on bellies you'd never see half the time in a RTS only to then post people that have impossibly barrelled chests that if you ever met in real life you'd more worry they have some sort of medical condition or mutant.

    Yet complain about the female proportions and realism. The worst part about the absurd duality of it is how clueless the posters are when they say it with a straight face.
    https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/007/526/642/large/tom-parker-tomp-def-witch-elves-lp-03.jpg?1506727776

    https://i.redd.it/9zcjtm6x9ooz.jpg

    Witch Elves should be bigger and stronger, with bigger muscles. They have an overdeveloped abs muscles, which is fine if you take their profession into account. What it isn't so good is the rest of their muscles. They should have bigger and stronger arms and legs, and MUCH BIGGER AND STRONGER shoulders, chests and backs. Just look at female mma fighters and compare them with these models.
  • Nyxilis#3646Nyxilis#3646 Registered Users Posts: 7,726

    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    @TheGuardianOfMetal

    Yup and I agree like I said, I wasn't saying the damsels are fine. Take another look at what I said.

    the fact that i wasn't talking abotu the rest should actually signlar that i at least somewhat agree with it.

    Though i think the big issue with the Witch Elves is/was, that the stomach muscles feel a bit over defined combined with the lack of muscles on the rest of hte model, making them stick out quite a bit. Maybe if they had been more subdued it would've worked better
    Bet you didn't look at all the half naked norscan models to make these same levels of complaints. Lol
    there is a certain difference between the overmuscled Barbarian trope, where the whole dude is muscled and the Witch Elves where there are no muscles except for the incredibly ripped Stomach


    Ha ha ha ha, thank you for proving my point. Whining about the slight definitions on bellies you'd never see half the time in a RTS only to then post people that have impossibly barrelled chests that if you ever met in real life you'd more worry they have some sort of medical condition or mutant.

    Yet complain about the female proportions and realism. The worst part about the absurd duality of it is how clueless the posters are when they say it with a straight face.
    https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/007/526/642/large/tom-parker-tomp-def-witch-elves-lp-03.jpg?1506727776

    https://i.redd.it/9zcjtm6x9ooz.jpg

    Witch Elves should be bigger and stronger, with bigger muscles. They have an overdeveloped abs muscles, which is fine if you take their profession into account. What it isn't so good is the rest of their muscles. They should have bigger and stronger arms and legs, and MUCH BIGGER AND STRONGER shoulders, chests and backs. Just look at female mma fighters and compare them with these models.
    It's still proving my point, this tiny lil thing drives guys bonkers but the norscan barbarians look like bloated barrels by any actual human standard. Hand wave, hand wave.

    Even if some might have critique, I never see this level come for the male models with the sole exception of their weapons. Which is where the giant double standard gets missed. Have to have the finely crafted to your wish female models and everything else be damned.
  • TheGuardianOfMetal#3661TheGuardianOfMetal#3661 Senior Member GermanyRegistered Users Posts: 14,701
    edited November 2019
    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    @TheGuardianOfMetal

    Yup and I agree like I said, I wasn't saying the damsels are fine. Take another look at what I said.

    the fact that i wasn't talking abotu the rest should actually signlar that i at least somewhat agree with it.

    Though i think the big issue with the Witch Elves is/was, that the stomach muscles feel a bit over defined combined with the lack of muscles on the rest of hte model, making them stick out quite a bit. Maybe if they had been more subdued it would've worked better
    Bet you didn't look at all the half naked norscan models to make these same levels of complaints. Lol
    there is a certain difference between the overmuscled Barbarian trope, where the whole dude is muscled and the Witch Elves where there are no muscles except for the incredibly ripped Stomach


    Ha ha ha ha, thank you for proving my point. Whining about the slight definitions on bellies you'd never see half the time in a RTS only to then post people that have impossibly barrelled chests that if you ever met in real life you'd more worry they have some sort of medical condition or mutant.

    Yet complain about the female proportions and realism. The worst part about the absurd duality of it is how clueless the posters are when they say it with a straight face.
    https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/007/526/642/large/tom-parker-tomp-def-witch-elves-lp-03.jpg?1506727776

    https://i.redd.it/9zcjtm6x9ooz.jpg

    Witch Elves should be bigger and stronger, with bigger muscles. They have an overdeveloped abs muscles, which is fine if you take their profession into account. What it isn't so good is the rest of their muscles. They should have bigger and stronger arms and legs, and MUCH BIGGER AND STRONGER shoulders, chests and backs. Just look at female mma fighters and compare them with these models.
    It's still proving my point, this tiny lil thing drives guys bonkers but the norscan barbarians look like bloated barrels by any actual human standard. Hand wave, hand wave.

    Even if some might have critique, I never see this level come for the male models with the sole exception of their weapons. Which is where the giant double standard gets missed. Have to have the finely crafted to your wish female models and everything else be damned.
    basically, you're running around, eyes closed, fingers in ears, shouting "IT'S PROVING MY POINT!"

    no. It does not. The Norscans are using a cohesive design. Big burly dudes.

    The WE ARE NOT Cohesively designed. they use that slender model but then have those abs on their skin which creates a crass contrast,

    Imagine Sheldon Cooper, all scrawny, but then he has a killer six pack, but nothing else. it looks wrong because it just doesn't mix well with the resto fthe body.
    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • Nyxilis#3646Nyxilis#3646 Registered Users Posts: 7,726

    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    @TheGuardianOfMetal

    Yup and I agree like I said, I wasn't saying the damsels are fine. Take another look at what I said.

    the fact that i wasn't talking abotu the rest should actually signlar that i at least somewhat agree with it.

    Though i think the big issue with the Witch Elves is/was, that the stomach muscles feel a bit over defined combined with the lack of muscles on the rest of hte model, making them stick out quite a bit. Maybe if they had been more subdued it would've worked better
    Bet you didn't look at all the half naked norscan models to make these same levels of complaints. Lol
    there is a certain difference between the overmuscled Barbarian trope, where the whole dude is muscled and the Witch Elves where there are no muscles except for the incredibly ripped Stomach


    Ha ha ha ha, thank you for proving my point. Whining about the slight definitions on bellies you'd never see half the time in a RTS only to then post people that have impossibly barrelled chests that if you ever met in real life you'd more worry they have some sort of medical condition or mutant.

    Yet complain about the female proportions and realism. The worst part about the absurd duality of it is how clueless the posters are when they say it with a straight face.
    https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/007/526/642/large/tom-parker-tomp-def-witch-elves-lp-03.jpg?1506727776

    https://i.redd.it/9zcjtm6x9ooz.jpg

    Witch Elves should be bigger and stronger, with bigger muscles. They have an overdeveloped abs muscles, which is fine if you take their profession into account. What it isn't so good is the rest of their muscles. They should have bigger and stronger arms and legs, and MUCH BIGGER AND STRONGER shoulders, chests and backs. Just look at female mma fighters and compare them with these models.
    It's still proving my point, this tiny lil thing drives guys bonkers but the norscan barbarians look like bloated barrels by any actual human standard. Hand wave, hand wave.

    Even if some might have critique, I never see this level come for the male models with the sole exception of their weapons. Which is where the giant double standard gets missed. Have to have the finely crafted to your wish female models and everything else be damned.
    basically, you're running around, eyes closed, fingers in ears, shouting "IT'S PROVING MY POINT!"

    no. It does not. The Norscans are using a cohesive design. Big burly dudes.

    The WE ARE NOT Cohesively designed. they use that slender model but then have those abs on their skin which creates a crass contrast
    Nonsense. You just don't like my point. And you prove my point with the vigor and hyper selective complaints.

    There are other graphical glitches, odd design choices, and critiques on countless other models in male models, machines, and monsters in this game and a certain group hyper focuses every time their is a female model. There are issues in those 'big burly dudes', but they hardly seem to matter.

    So yeah, I'm calling you out on it.
  • TheGuardianOfMetal#3661TheGuardianOfMetal#3661 Senior Member GermanyRegistered Users Posts: 14,701
    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    @TheGuardianOfMetal

    Yup and I agree like I said, I wasn't saying the damsels are fine. Take another look at what I said.

    the fact that i wasn't talking abotu the rest should actually signlar that i at least somewhat agree with it.

    Though i think the big issue with the Witch Elves is/was, that the stomach muscles feel a bit over defined combined with the lack of muscles on the rest of hte model, making them stick out quite a bit. Maybe if they had been more subdued it would've worked better
    Bet you didn't look at all the half naked norscan models to make these same levels of complaints. Lol
    there is a certain difference between the overmuscled Barbarian trope, where the whole dude is muscled and the Witch Elves where there are no muscles except for the incredibly ripped Stomach


    Ha ha ha ha, thank you for proving my point. Whining about the slight definitions on bellies you'd never see half the time in a RTS only to then post people that have impossibly barrelled chests that if you ever met in real life you'd more worry they have some sort of medical condition or mutant.

    Yet complain about the female proportions and realism. The worst part about the absurd duality of it is how clueless the posters are when they say it with a straight face.
    https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/007/526/642/large/tom-parker-tomp-def-witch-elves-lp-03.jpg?1506727776

    https://i.redd.it/9zcjtm6x9ooz.jpg

    Witch Elves should be bigger and stronger, with bigger muscles. They have an overdeveloped abs muscles, which is fine if you take their profession into account. What it isn't so good is the rest of their muscles. They should have bigger and stronger arms and legs, and MUCH BIGGER AND STRONGER shoulders, chests and backs. Just look at female mma fighters and compare them with these models.
    It's still proving my point, this tiny lil thing drives guys bonkers but the norscan barbarians look like bloated barrels by any actual human standard. Hand wave, hand wave.

    Even if some might have critique, I never see this level come for the male models with the sole exception of their weapons. Which is where the giant double standard gets missed. Have to have the finely crafted to your wish female models and everything else be damned.
    basically, you're running around, eyes closed, fingers in ears, shouting "IT'S PROVING MY POINT!"

    no. It does not. The Norscans are using a cohesive design. Big burly dudes.

    The WE ARE NOT Cohesively designed. they use that slender model but then have those abs on their skin which creates a crass contrast
    Nonsense. You just don't like my point. And you prove my point with the vigor and hyper selective complaints.

    There are other graphical glitches, odd design choices, and critiques on countless other models in male models, machines, and monsters in this game and a certain group hyper focuses every time their is a female model. There are issues in those 'big burly dudes', but they hardly seem to matter.

    So yeah, I'm calling you out on it.
    Nonsense. You're just ignoring my point.

    The Norscan dudes while unrealistic from a IRL PoV are cohesive in their character design. The Conan-esque over muscled barbarians. The Witch Elves aren't. Yes, there are a lot other graphical glitches and odd design choices etc. that are in the game and are often made. Heck when Tyrion's design was revealed we had multiple multi-page threads about why he doesn't look like this artwork or that book cover. We had complaints about graphical glitches like Louen's eye, the lighting in the portrait ports etc.

    If WEs would look more like this, It might work.



    here she has a slight six pack


    But they don't. Witch elves in TW WH have a thin, light build... but then they have that stomach musculature...

    a beautiful, well trained woman, yet still not such killer abs:


    trained MMA fighter...



    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • Nyxilis#3646Nyxilis#3646 Registered Users Posts: 7,726

    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    @TheGuardianOfMetal

    Yup and I agree like I said, I wasn't saying the damsels are fine. Take another look at what I said.

    the fact that i wasn't talking abotu the rest should actually signlar that i at least somewhat agree with it.

    Though i think the big issue with the Witch Elves is/was, that the stomach muscles feel a bit over defined combined with the lack of muscles on the rest of hte model, making them stick out quite a bit. Maybe if they had been more subdued it would've worked better
    Bet you didn't look at all the half naked norscan models to make these same levels of complaints. Lol
    there is a certain difference between the overmuscled Barbarian trope, where the whole dude is muscled and the Witch Elves where there are no muscles except for the incredibly ripped Stomach


    Ha ha ha ha, thank you for proving my point. Whining about the slight definitions on bellies you'd never see half the time in a RTS only to then post people that have impossibly barrelled chests that if you ever met in real life you'd more worry they have some sort of medical condition or mutant.

    Yet complain about the female proportions and realism. The worst part about the absurd duality of it is how clueless the posters are when they say it with a straight face.
    https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/007/526/642/large/tom-parker-tomp-def-witch-elves-lp-03.jpg?1506727776

    https://i.redd.it/9zcjtm6x9ooz.jpg

    Witch Elves should be bigger and stronger, with bigger muscles. They have an overdeveloped abs muscles, which is fine if you take their profession into account. What it isn't so good is the rest of their muscles. They should have bigger and stronger arms and legs, and MUCH BIGGER AND STRONGER shoulders, chests and backs. Just look at female mma fighters and compare them with these models.
    It's still proving my point, this tiny lil thing drives guys bonkers but the norscan barbarians look like bloated barrels by any actual human standard. Hand wave, hand wave.

    Even if some might have critique, I never see this level come for the male models with the sole exception of their weapons. Which is where the giant double standard gets missed. Have to have the finely crafted to your wish female models and everything else be damned.
    basically, you're running around, eyes closed, fingers in ears, shouting "IT'S PROVING MY POINT!"

    no. It does not. The Norscans are using a cohesive design. Big burly dudes.

    The WE ARE NOT Cohesively designed. they use that slender model but then have those abs on their skin which creates a crass contrast
    Nonsense. You just don't like my point. And you prove my point with the vigor and hyper selective complaints.

    There are other graphical glitches, odd design choices, and critiques on countless other models in male models, machines, and monsters in this game and a certain group hyper focuses every time their is a female model. There are issues in those 'big burly dudes', but they hardly seem to matter.

    So yeah, I'm calling you out on it.
    Nonsense. You're just ignoring my point.

    The Norscan dudes while unrealistic from a IRL PoV are cohesive in their character design. The Conan-esque over muscled barbarians. The Witch Elves aren't. Yes, there are a lot other graphical glitches and odd design choices etc. that are in the game and are often made. Heck when Tyrion's design was revealed we had multiple multi-page threads about why he doesn't look like this artwork or that book cover. We had complaints about graphical glitches like Louen's eye, the lighting in the portrait ports etc.

    If WEs would look more like this, It might work.



    here she has a slight six pack


    But they don't. Witch elves in TW WH have a thin, light build... but then they have that stomach musculature...

    a beautiful, well trained woman, yet still not such killer abs:


    trained MMA fighter...



    I'm not at all, mine is just flying over your head. Now post to me men that look like those Norscans. Post to me any man that looks like that swallowed a barrel for any stereotypical viking man. Because you're not get any that perpetually round.

    Yet, one is okay. The other is not. Hand wave the Norscans cause they're men. Got it.
  • TheGuardianOfMetal#3661TheGuardianOfMetal#3661 Senior Member GermanyRegistered Users Posts: 14,701
    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    @TheGuardianOfMetal

    Yup and I agree like I said, I wasn't saying the damsels are fine. Take another look at what I said.

    the fact that i wasn't talking abotu the rest should actually signlar that i at least somewhat agree with it.

    Though i think the big issue with the Witch Elves is/was, that the stomach muscles feel a bit over defined combined with the lack of muscles on the rest of hte model, making them stick out quite a bit. Maybe if they had been more subdued it would've worked better
    Bet you didn't look at all the half naked norscan models to make these same levels of complaints. Lol
    there is a certain difference between the overmuscled Barbarian trope, where the whole dude is muscled and the Witch Elves where there are no muscles except for the incredibly ripped Stomach


    Ha ha ha ha, thank you for proving my point. Whining about the slight definitions on bellies you'd never see half the time in a RTS only to then post people that have impossibly barrelled chests that if you ever met in real life you'd more worry they have some sort of medical condition or mutant.

    Yet complain about the female proportions and realism. The worst part about the absurd duality of it is how clueless the posters are when they say it with a straight face.
    https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/007/526/642/large/tom-parker-tomp-def-witch-elves-lp-03.jpg?1506727776

    https://i.redd.it/9zcjtm6x9ooz.jpg

    Witch Elves should be bigger and stronger, with bigger muscles. They have an overdeveloped abs muscles, which is fine if you take their profession into account. What it isn't so good is the rest of their muscles. They should have bigger and stronger arms and legs, and MUCH BIGGER AND STRONGER shoulders, chests and backs. Just look at female mma fighters and compare them with these models.
    It's still proving my point, this tiny lil thing drives guys bonkers but the norscan barbarians look like bloated barrels by any actual human standard. Hand wave, hand wave.

    Even if some might have critique, I never see this level come for the male models with the sole exception of their weapons. Which is where the giant double standard gets missed. Have to have the finely crafted to your wish female models and everything else be damned.
    basically, you're running around, eyes closed, fingers in ears, shouting "IT'S PROVING MY POINT!"

    no. It does not. The Norscans are using a cohesive design. Big burly dudes.

    The WE ARE NOT Cohesively designed. they use that slender model but then have those abs on their skin which creates a crass contrast
    Nonsense. You just don't like my point. And you prove my point with the vigor and hyper selective complaints.

    There are other graphical glitches, odd design choices, and critiques on countless other models in male models, machines, and monsters in this game and a certain group hyper focuses every time their is a female model. There are issues in those 'big burly dudes', but they hardly seem to matter.

    So yeah, I'm calling you out on it.
    Nonsense. You're just ignoring my point.

    The Norscan dudes while unrealistic from a IRL PoV are cohesive in their character design. The Conan-esque over muscled barbarians. The Witch Elves aren't. Yes, there are a lot other graphical glitches and odd design choices etc. that are in the game and are often made. Heck when Tyrion's design was revealed we had multiple multi-page threads about why he doesn't look like this artwork or that book cover. We had complaints about graphical glitches like Louen's eye, the lighting in the portrait ports etc.

    If WEs would look more like this, It might work.



    here she has a slight six pack


    But they don't. Witch elves in TW WH have a thin, light build... but then they have that stomach musculature...

    a beautiful, well trained woman, yet still not such killer abs:


    trained MMA fighter...



    I'm not at all, mine is just flying over your head. Now post to me men that look like those Norscans. Post to me any man that looks like that swallowed a barrel for any stereotypical viking man. Because you're not get any that perpetually round.

    Yet, one is okay. The other is not. Hand wave the Norscans cause they're men. Got it.
    thanks for proving that you are utterly missing the point. the Norscan dudes are Unrealistic. that is something I ALREADY SAID which you would have noticed if you would have bothered to actually read the stuff. But you just proved that you aren't. you're skipping to the part that, if you refer to only them, make it seem that they prove your "point"

    They are unrealistic but cohesively designed. They are those overmuscled brutes.

    The WE meanwhile are not cohesively designed. Their body is overall thin and lithe but then had the Six Pack slapped on. THAT is the issue.

    It's not that the Norscans are realistic, but that they follow their design basis. The Witch Elves do not.

    also, those guys could get close to Norscans




    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • SeanJeanquoi#3490SeanJeanquoi#3490 Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    @Crossil

    "As I said you're incapable of giving people the benefit of the doubt."


    I've been giving people the benefit of the doubt this whole time, which is why I've constantly been saying they aren't inherently bigoted people, it's more the ethos that's the problem.

    "Even if I admit that it's used to attack in general so what? You just showed that case isn't racist."

    I addressed this multiple times in my last comment directed at you.

    "Aggression however I'd argue isn't inherently bad."

    Argue away, I'd love to hear how you justify that one.

    "OK, and when did I say outsiders denoted women, gays, blacks, etc.? When I say outsiders I mean mainstream individuals who don't play games or know how people on internet communicate and any politically motivated individuals who gain points from demonizing gamers. You're already judging me here and twisting my words to sit with your cause. And I face this a lot."


    You said that 'outsiders are the ones giving specific meaning to the language gamers use'. Most people who complain about gamers language are from minority groups like the ones I listed. They're largely the ones who take issue with language like gamers use being normalised.

    I wasn't trying to characterise your views as bigoted or anything, I just used your example to make the broader point that the reason gamers were allowed to develop an ethos like they have, is because they were mostly left to their own devices without any of these groups present.

    "actions have consequences but who determines the consequences?"


    Society does and you just said that society doesn't approve of the gamer ethos, so my question back to you would be: how do you justify the ethos of your community when society at large across party lines does not approve of it?

    "Who determines even what I said? People who want to do that will judge me not on what I mean but on what I say. Why would I care about them?"


    There are some people out there who think you can't use certain words in any setting, people who will judge you to the harshest degree regardless of your intent or the context. I am not one of those people and for the record: those people are a vocal minority. (Or they're some boomber who has no idea what they're even talking about)

    "Again, it's not a derogatory term because it isn't used with that intent. How can something be derogatory if I use it indiscriminately and without malicious intent? I can say f*ck in many different scenarios, even casually, so what do you mean it's necessarily bad?"


    Fu*k is not a word used as an insult on its own so it's not a good comparison. It's bad because you're still using it to be derogatory.

    You're speaking like, for something to be derogatory, you have to use that word to talk down to or insult that particular people, but it works the other way as well: you can use a certain kind of people to talk down to or insult someone else.

    If you call someone an f word as an insult, you are insulting them by comparing them to an F word and in return, they find it insulting because being an F word is/was frowned upon by society. Most of modern society tries not to do this anymore because of the bad underlying issues with it but it's persisted in gamer culture like I said because they've mostly been left to their own devices. This is one of the reasons gaming spaces are often very hostile, they're aversed to being feminine (in the old sense where feminine also means showing emotion, not being aggressive, not being hyper-masculine etc). Gaming culture isn't just a nice little bubble all to itself, it's more like a time capsule in many ways, one that hasn't been affected by the changes in society around it, though many gamers have been affected.

    "Better yet, black people say the word they apparently dislike more often than anyone else. Are they normalizing racism?"


    All you're doing is showing how disconnected you are from these issues. Words like that are often reclaimed by that group as a way of trying to get over what it used to mean essentially. Similarly: the Q in LGBTQ was reappropriated by those groups to mean something more neutral or positive. What gamers are doing is basically the opposite, they are using insults for other groups of people so often in their community that it loses all meaning to those in that community.

    "It's bad to people who like to smear us constantly, not because it's inherently bad."


    How is it not inherently bad? How is it good? How are the critisizms invalid?

    "How about this, swear words and taboos have a social role. To be able to say these things to a friend and for both of us to know what we mean is an internal developed relation between us. It is a mark of comradeship and understanding. You can't tell me that friends can't be rough amongst themselves without calling that inherently harmful."


    I agree, everyone tells offensive jokes to one another in private and messes with each other to an extent (although the harmful issues we've been discussing do still find their way into everyday life to an extent). The difference is that society at large understands that's not ok in a public setting and most communities do to. Gamers however don't, their community is like one big rowdy friends group.

    I get that this kinda can't be helped and it's not inherently gamers fault, because of Xbox live and the internet, it's almost like all their private conversations have been broadcast live since 2004, alot of normal people act like this in private to a degree too, but nonetheless, gaming is a public community now, it's a competitive sport, a genuine business etc and you just can't base a community or a business around that kind of behaviour, because at the end of the day anyone from any group can be a gamer and could be listening when you all start dropping the N word.
  • Maedrethnir#1968Maedrethnir#1968 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 17,371

    How dare people don't like the things i like and criticize them.
    Haven't seen a single person who complains about we're getting another womz in our Vidya games.

    I've seen quite a few misogynistic comments and there have been quite a few comments deleted because of it. It's not as bad as it has been and certainly not everyone irked by Joan is under that banner, but her being a woman isn't an uncommon part of the criticism.
    Show one
    Maedrethnir + Aranessa = "Mannish Face"
    I didn't know that perceptivity equals m-word.

    I stand by my words, Manlinessa Testospite has a mannish face in the game.
    Her art depiction is feminine, she even wears makeup there. Good lass.
  • SeanJeanquoi#3490SeanJeanquoi#3490 Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    "You clearly don't understand how these things actually work. Just look at how many times we've had to change the "PC" term for Black here in america, ****, Colored, Person of Color, African American.... The racism didn't go away because we changed the name, and so long as the racism persisted many new names became a slurs unto themselves.

    You know @SeanJeanquoi I was taking public transit a while back and a young hispanic man came up to his black friend and said "whats up my N*ger and they slapped hands gave hugs and where truly happy to see one another, and then some 50 year old ham beast of a cracker butted in and berated them with her bul **** morality and language policing. Two young people of color expressing love for one another with a dumb wht btch butting in with her wht imperialism. Or at least that's one way to look at it."

    You're describing to me liberal/corporate policies and ideology right now, something I don't at all ascribe to, that woman was an idiot and I don't like all this changing words to make them softer. (When I say liberal, I mean centrist by the way, because that's what it actually means. Common misconception).

    As I said to Crossil, if you don't understand why it's ok for Hispanics and black to say the N word then I don't know what to tell you, you're just as lost as that liberal idiot on the bus.

    You're comparing apples to oranges here, calling black people coloured isn't the same as normalising using the n word in an open world wide community...like, I don't even need to explain myself further than that because you're talking to a strawman of me.
  • BillyRuffian#6250BillyRuffian#6250 Moderator UKRegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 40,916
    edited November 2019
    I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop this conversation right here and now. This forum has its own house rules and no minimum age limit, so whatever behaviour may be seen as normal in some other parts of "the internet" is not necessarily permitted here.

    Just to give a few examples:

    1.1 Please do not disrespect any other forum users, including volunteer moderators or CA staff
    1.2a Please do not practice negative behaviour: personal attacks/bashing/baiting/spamming, etc.
    1.2b Please do not use taunting/trolling (behaviour with the deliberate goal of being controversial or offensive)

    2.1 You will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, is material of a sexual matter, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise unlawful.

    10.1 It is our full right to close delete or move any threads submitted on these forums. If content is judged to be inappropriate it will be removed. While we respect everyone's right to express themselves, the right to express one's self stops when it infringes other people’s rights, such as described here and by the law in the various locales where this forum shall be deliberately published.
    10.2 We do not accept any discussions regarding religion, politics, race, sexuality, morality, etc. except when referring to a game mechanics/situation or to a historical situation affecting game portrayal. Even under these circumstances, the bar is set very high. Expect these sorts of threads to have short leashes, or short lives.

    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts - for support rather than illumination." (Andrew Lang)

    |Takeda| Yokota Takatoshi

    Forum Terms and Conditions: - https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest

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This discussion has been closed.