RoR Poison Wind Mortar is busted and their hit detection is weird

Infinite_Maw

So I just watched Turins video of skaven vs dark elves which you can see here, and my god is the RoR version of the poison wind mortar completely OP and very janky,



Not only does this unit cripple literally everything it hits, with super high accuracy, but it seems that other artillary seems to have minimal effect on them. The dark elf reaper bolt thrower was hitting the RoR Poison Wind Mortor for almost half the match and they were not taking any damage or lose any units when the bolts made contact. It only took damage when the bloodwrack shrine got in range. Seriously what is up this unit?

Even if the hit detection was fixed, I have seen other matches where they can outright just delete other elite infantry before they even reach the front lines.

Seriously they need a damage nerf and they need to also fixed so that missles that hit them actually do damage.

Aerocrastic

Infinite_Maw said:

So I just watched Turins video of skaven vs dark elves which you can see here, and my god is the RoR version of the poison wind mortar completely OP and very janky,



Not only does this unit cripple literally everything it hits, with super high accuracy, but it seems that other artillary seems to have minimal effect on them. The dark elf reaper bolt thrower was hitting the RoR Poison Wind Mortor for almost half the match and they were not taking any damage or lose any units when the bolts made contact. It only took damage when the bloodwrack shrine got in range. Seriously what is up this unit?

Even if the hit detection was fixed, I have seen other matches where they can outright just delete other elite infantry before they even reach the front lines.

Seriously they need a damage nerf and they need to also fixed so that missles that hit them actually do damage.

Looks like a wait and see kind of deal to me. Queen Bess also does insane amounts of damage when you let it hit something, except it hasn't had a huge impact on the meta. Judging from the projectile of the mortars, I don't expect them to be much harder to dodge than a queen bess shot, and the team itself is still snipable by long range skirmishing/artillery. There is also the case of whether it's possible to protect something that expensive from a rush while still affording ample anti large tools

Infinite_Maw

@Aerocrastic Were you given early access?

How effective is other counter artillery, like say great cannons, against the poison wind mortars? Why was the bolt thrower doing jack all?

Cadia101

Aerocrastic said:

Infinite_Maw said:

So I just watched Turins video of skaven vs dark elves which you can see here, and my god is the RoR version of the poison wind mortar completely OP and very janky,



Not only does this unit cripple literally everything it hits, with super high accuracy, but it seems that other artillary seems to have minimal effect on them. The dark elf reaper bolt thrower was hitting the RoR Poison Wind Mortor for almost half the match and they were not taking any damage or lose any units when the bolts made contact. It only took damage when the bloodwrack shrine got in range. Seriously what is up this unit?

Even if the hit detection was fixed, I have seen other matches where they can outright just delete other elite infantry before they even reach the front lines.

Seriously they need a damage nerf and they need to also fixed so that missles that hit them actually do damage.

Looks like a wait and see kind of deal to me. Queen Bess also does insane amounts of damage when you let it hit something, except it hasn't had a huge impact on the meta. Judging from the projectile of the mortars, I don't expect them to be much harder to dodge than a queen bess shot, and the team itself is still snipable by long range skirmishing/artillery. There is also the case of whether it's possible to protect something that expensive from a rush while still affording ample anti large tools

You can protect it with new lore of magic and that on spell giving stalk and skaven have so much slow now... well will have to wait and see.

Aerocrastic

Infinite_Maw said:

@Aerocrastic Were you given early access?

How effective is other counter artillery, like say great cannons, against the poison wind mortars? Why was the bolt thrower doing jack all?

It looked to me like the bolt throwers were missing pretty often, could be a pathing or targeting issue. This is early access that the battles are being played on so it could just be a minor bug with the hitbox. As for counter artillery with things like cannons, each mortar model has around 326 HP (maybe the game engine rounds this up to 327 but this is probably rarely ever going to be relevant) meaning that spirit leech will peel 3 models off each cast basically guaranteed for the first 2 casts and I think something with the damage profile of a cannon will take 2 hits to kill. Compare these to Jezzails with 24 models and I'm pretty sure the latter is actually more difficult to kill from range.

Infinite_Maw

Aerocrastic said:

Infinite_Maw said:

@Aerocrastic Were you given early access?

How effective is other counter artillery, like say great cannons, against the poison wind mortars? Why was the bolt thrower doing jack all?

It looked to me like the bolt throwers were missing pretty often, could be a pathing or targeting issue. This is early access that the battles are being played on so it could just be a minor bug with the hitbox. As for counter artillery with things like cannons, each mortar model has around 326 HP (maybe the game engine rounds this up to 327 but this is probably rarely ever going to be relevant) meaning that spirit leech will peel 3 models off each cast guaranteed (.002% chance to fail) and I think something with the damage profile of a cannon will take 2 hits to kill. Compare these to Jezzails with 24 models and I'm pretty sure the latter is actually more difficult to kill from range.

The bug hitbox is a big issue though, especially because all elves have some good short-mid range options but very limited long artillery. Greenskins especially can get screwed over by this weakness too.

Although I do agree that a good overcast spirit leech could be very effective.

Green0

I expect the Mortar RoR to be busted if it stays like this.

Bolt Throwers on a side note could use better accuracy or actually hit reliably, their bolts fall short very often vs a number of targets, including cavalry, thus drastically decreasing their performance.

Seldkam

I did indeed see the bolt thrower land a direct shot on a model and the HP of the team stayed the same for some reason.

It looks like if it's expensive enough it will be balanced similar to QB

Cirdan

They seems to be basically a mini-Bess without the weaknesses that Bess has, e.g. not being an artillery piece with a huge hitbox + the immobility. Hopefully its reflected by the price.

What concerns me more though are the slows + nets that they get. In this battle Turin could bring 4 different slows and nets (gutter runners poison, Snitch's sigil, ratling gunners and Warp grinders).

But, whatever, probably have to wait and see, but i am concerned about the balance.

Griffithxi

More like a skaven version of flame cannon basically.
I think it even has almost the same price as flame cannon. Is the price 1450?
Maybe some of the testers or CA can go in and see if there is a glitch causing them to not take damage from those bolt throwers tho.

Edit: was 1400 before the newest balance pass at least. (same as flame cannon price)

Witchblade

Every streamer I've seen with early access has commented this unit seems OP. The idea that it's not more powerful than Queen Bess is basically saying it's OP, as it's Queen Bess with something like triple the speed and a third of the hitbox.

Aerocrastic

Witchblade said:

Every streamer I've seen with early access has commented this unit seems OP. The idea that it's not more powerful than Queen Bess is basically saying it's OP, as it's Queen Bess with something like triple the speed and a third of the hitbox.

Queen Bess gets unbreakable chaff to protect it and summons. In addition to this, coast normally sees infantry as a problem unit whereas Skaven see people instead trying to spend as little in infantry as possible. If you take the wrong units vs Skaven then it can certainly perform, but I don't see it being good against the chariot/monster/monstrous infantry based builds that it is good against, and a bit like the dread saurian I don't expect it to do anything but make already difficult matchups harder and leave the other ones untouched

Cirdan

Aerocrastic said:

Witchblade said:

Every streamer I've seen with early access has commented this unit seems OP. The idea that it's not more powerful than Queen Bess is basically saying it's OP, as it's Queen Bess with something like triple the speed and a third of the hitbox.

Queen Bess gets unbreakable chaff to protect it and summons. In addition to this, coast normally sees infantry as a problem unit whereas Skaven see people instead trying to spend as little in infantry as possible. If you take the wrong units vs Skaven then it can certainly perform, but I don't see it being good against the chariot/monster/monstrous infantry based builds that it is good against, and a bit like the dread saurian I don't expect it to do anything but make already difficult matchups harder and leave the other ones untouched

Well, i think Bess is even more situational than these guys since Bess is very easy to shut down by destroying the artillery piece, which ain't possible in this case.

Disposable Hero

Aerocrastic said:

Witchblade said:

Every streamer I've seen with early access has commented this unit seems OP. The idea that it's not more powerful than Queen Bess is basically saying it's OP, as it's Queen Bess with something like triple the speed and a third of the hitbox.

Queen Bess gets unbreakable chaff to protect it and summons. In addition to this, coast normally sees infantry as a problem unit whereas Skaven see people instead trying to spend as little in infantry as possible. If you take the wrong units vs Skaven then it can certainly perform, but I don't see it being good against the chariot/monster/monstrous infantry based builds that it is good against, and a bit like the dread saurian I don't expect it to do anything but make already difficult matchups harder and leave the other ones untouched

Well if there's two ways to play it (either mobile/SEM style or mass archer style) and if one unit shuts down one style and mass slows shut down the other style then there could be trouble. ROR lobbers should at least be vulnerable to BTs I hope, otherwise it's busted. I really hope it's not that bad but I don't feel any confidence at all in the dlc team at the moment.

On the flipside I'll enjoy a ROR Moon Dragon with bound nets, AOE debuff, regen and unbreakable next DLC...

rymeintrinseca

An unsnipeable Bess would be worth what, 2000? 2500? And this is 1400. Lower range you could say is largely priced in by extra mobility, so this looks v. underpriced.

I see Aero's point about heavy infantry builds being unfavoured, but this thing would still pay for itself and then some even if sitting on 400-500g infantry as it would break several before engagement.

And as shown in Turin's videos it will also decimate cav because it doesn't seem to be reliant on high model count as a regular mortar is - per model damage is significant. So it's hard to see any scenario where it's not worth bringing on current evidence.

KurnothHunter

expecting it to be OP on the release is a normal thing, that's how usually it is, especially when so many new toys are introduced at once

sonofabhorash

Im not sure if i will be willing to play against the rats till the next nerfhammer
All the games will be like : have you been able to take out this purple cluster OP unit with affordable loses or not?
With all the slows and blocks at their disposal it will be haaard
I just cant imagine some good counterplay against this team

Zeblasky

sonofabhorash said:

Im not sure if i will be willing to play against the rats till the next nerfhammer
All the games will be like : have you been able to take out this purple cluster OP unit with affordable loses or not?
With all the slows and blocks at their disposal it will be haaard
I just cant imagine some good counterplay against this team

Magic missiles with good range and from good angle could be good. Getting double Arrow of Kurnous on them could be so tasty...

another505

Its pretty powerful... with all slow and snare cheap inf bog and better summons.

Its going to be worse than queen bess
Queen fires one round at a time and can be dodgd. This is really hard

sonofabhorash

Zeblasky said:

sonofabhorash said:

Im not sure if i will be willing to play against the rats till the next nerfhammer
All the games will be like : have you been able to take out this purple cluster OP unit with affordable loses or not?
With all the slows and blocks at their disposal it will be haaard
I just cant imagine some good counterplay against this team

Magic missiles with good range and from good angle could be good. Getting double Arrow of Kurnous on them could be so tasty...

I dont like teching against one certain unit if you know what i mean since your putting yourself already at the disadvantage before the battle
plus you need better blast radius,Kurnous is good against war machines or SEM
Somebody proposed spirit leech well good luck overcasting yourself to death since 100m cast is a fantasy
This unit is not spray and pray , its spray and welcome in valuetown

Zeblasky

another505 said:

Queen fires one round at a time and can be dodgd. This is really hard

Actually it's a really valid point. Unless you invest into Gunnery Wight support, almost all Queen Bess ammo can be dodged. Also queen need a buff in form of its slow removal(it screws with its accuracy), but we can discuss it later.

But no such counterplay here with that huge and a bit random AOE. If mortar RoR shoots at you, unless you're cavary, you won't dodge it in time. And even if you're cavalry, you could still get hit.

sonofabhorash said:

I dont like teching against one certain unit if you know what i mean since your putting yourself already at the disadvantage before the battle
plus you need better blast radius,Kurnous is good against war machines or SEM

Agree with you on a first part(even if sometimes it's nessesary when a unit is meta and a heavy investment like mass Waywatchers). But oh boy I disagree on a second part. Launch Arrow of Kurnous from the side into let's say Black Guard and see what happens. On a very few rare casts I got around 60% HP worth of damage just form one shot. Still, Mortars are pretty spread out, so we will need testing on how magic missiles will work here.

Lamentations

Seems the mortar has been nerfed hard in the most recent build shown.

DatHomieSilverSurfer

Lamentations said:

Seems the mortar has been nerfed hard in the most recent build shown.

yea, in the unit test Zerkovich did, 3 units of them firing simultaneously did significantly less damage against massive clumps of dreadspears than I expected. If they get a cost reduction or slight damage increase then they'll be fine, otherwise I foresee another fun but impotently expensive unit relegated to singleplayer. Hell, based on their current performance, I don't even know if they'd be worth the cost to field in single player

Green0

DatHomieSilverSurfer said:

Lamentations said:

Seems the mortar has been nerfed hard in the most recent build shown.

yea, in the unit test Zerkovich did, 3 units of them firing simultaneously did significantly less damage against massive clumps of dreadspears than I expected. If they get a cost reduction or slight damage increase then they'll be fine, otherwise I foresee another fun but impotently expensive unit relegated to singleplayer. Hell, based on their current performance, I don't even know if they'd be worth the cost to field in single player

it’s OK, it seems some broken toys will still be there, for Skaven in the form of sheer variety of builds you can bring (also RoR triads is broken and too cheap), for DE in the form of new Chariots and Malus. Do not despair you will be able to abuse ladder for a few months.

Lamentations

It’s okay Green0 High elves will get their DLC someday.

Green0

Lamentations said:

It’s okay Green0 High elves will get their DLC someday.

lol who cares about HE why do you have to make it personal

Griffithxi

Looking at the test video of the unit after the nerfs to damage along with a price increase to 1500 I think this unit will be one that is never picked after everyone tries it out a little bit.
It may be fun to use in campaign though and it looks cool when it fires.
At least the new non ror mortars are a bit better now it seems.
Mortars at 15:00 into the vid.

DatHomieSilverSurfer

Green0 said:

DatHomieSilverSurfer said:

Lamentations said:

Seems the mortar has been nerfed hard in the most recent build shown.

yea, in the unit test Zerkovich did, 3 units of them firing simultaneously did significantly less damage against massive clumps of dreadspears than I expected. If they get a cost reduction or slight damage increase then they'll be fine, otherwise I foresee another fun but impotently expensive unit relegated to singleplayer. Hell, based on their current performance, I don't even know if they'd be worth the cost to field in single player

it’s OK, it seems some broken toys will still be there, for Skaven in the form of sheer variety of builds you can bring (also RoR triads is broken and too cheap), for DE in the form of new Chariots and Malus. Do not despair you will be able to abuse ladder for a few months.

I'm terrible at the game, I couldn't abuse ladder if I tried. I just don't think that units have to be underpowered intentionally due to other overpowered units in a roster. Having a cost-worthy unit to at least compete with natty bubous in some circumstances would effectively make the game more fun and diverse for most players.

thanks for continuing to be an a-hole though

Disposable Hero

DatHomieSilverSurfer said:

Green0 said:

DatHomieSilverSurfer said:

Lamentations said:

Seems the mortar has been nerfed hard in the most recent build shown.

yea, in the unit test Zerkovich did, 3 units of them firing simultaneously did significantly less damage against massive clumps of dreadspears than I expected. If they get a cost reduction or slight damage increase then they'll be fine, otherwise I foresee another fun but impotently expensive unit relegated to singleplayer. Hell, based on their current performance, I don't even know if they'd be worth the cost to field in single player

it’s OK, it seems some broken toys will still be there, for Skaven in the form of sheer variety of builds you can bring (also RoR triads is broken and too cheap), for DE in the form of new Chariots and Malus. Do not despair you will be able to abuse ladder for a few months.

I'm terrible at the game, I couldn't abuse ladder if I tried. I just don't think that units have to be underpowered intentionally due to other overpowered units in a roster. Having a cost-worthy unit to at least compete with natty bubous in some circumstances would effectively make the game more fun and diverse for most players.

thanks for continuing to be an a-hole though

You know one broken unit can potentially ruin the mp aspect of the game for everyone. That's why people argue on these boards against some of the new stuff every dlc.

KurnothHunter

DatHomieSilverSurfer said:

Green0 said:

DatHomieSilverSurfer said:

Lamentations said:

Seems the mortar has been nerfed hard in the most recent build shown.

yea, in the unit test Zerkovich did, 3 units of them firing simultaneously did significantly less damage against massive clumps of dreadspears than I expected. If they get a cost reduction or slight damage increase then they'll be fine, otherwise I foresee another fun but impotently expensive unit relegated to singleplayer. Hell, based on their current performance, I don't even know if they'd be worth the cost to field in single player

it’s OK, it seems some broken toys will still be there, for Skaven in the form of sheer variety of builds you can bring (also RoR triads is broken and too cheap), for DE in the form of new Chariots and Malus. Do not despair you will be able to abuse ladder for a few months.

I'm terrible at the game, I couldn't abuse ladder if I tried. I just don't think that units have to be underpowered intentionally due to other overpowered units in a roster. Having a cost-worthy unit to at least compete with natty bubous in some circumstances would effectively make the game more fun and diverse for most players.

thanks for continuing to be an a-hole though

so you need more OP units to compete with other OP units already in the roster

ok, got you

yst

Yet another blunder in CA resources. Took all those time to design a unit for 0 pick rate couldve at least make it viable. I mean why even bother making new garbage units, rubbish of sotek, engine of noobs, trash guards, joke saurian, silly razordons