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RoR Poison Wind Mortar is busted and their hit detection is weird

Infinite_MawInfinite_Maw Posts: 1,468Registered Users
So I just watched Turins video of skaven vs dark elves which you can see here, and my god is the RoR version of the poison wind mortar completely OP and very janky,



Not only does this unit cripple literally everything it hits, with super high accuracy, but it seems that other artillary seems to have minimal effect on them. The dark elf reaper bolt thrower was hitting the RoR Poison Wind Mortor for almost half the match and they were not taking any damage or lose any units when the bolts made contact. It only took damage when the bloodwrack shrine got in range. Seriously what is up this unit?

Even if the hit detection was fixed, I have seen other matches where they can outright just delete other elite infantry before they even reach the front lines.

Seriously they need a damage nerf and they need to also fixed so that missles that hit them actually do damage.
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Comments

  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 397Registered Users

    So I just watched Turins video of skaven vs dark elves which you can see here, and my god is the RoR version of the poison wind mortar completely OP and very janky,



    Not only does this unit cripple literally everything it hits, with super high accuracy, but it seems that other artillary seems to have minimal effect on them. The dark elf reaper bolt thrower was hitting the RoR Poison Wind Mortor for almost half the match and they were not taking any damage or lose any units when the bolts made contact. It only took damage when the bloodwrack shrine got in range. Seriously what is up this unit?

    Even if the hit detection was fixed, I have seen other matches where they can outright just delete other elite infantry before they even reach the front lines.

    Seriously they need a damage nerf and they need to also fixed so that missles that hit them actually do damage.

    Looks like a wait and see kind of deal to me. Queen Bess also does insane amounts of damage when you let it hit something, except it hasn't had a huge impact on the meta. Judging from the projectile of the mortars, I don't expect them to be much harder to dodge than a queen bess shot, and the team itself is still snipable by long range skirmishing/artillery. There is also the case of whether it's possible to protect something that expensive from a rush while still affording ample anti large tools
  • Infinite_MawInfinite_Maw Posts: 1,468Registered Users
    @Aerocrastic Were you given early access?

    How effective is other counter artillery, like say great cannons, against the poison wind mortars? Why was the bolt thrower doing jack all?
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Posts: 272Registered Users

    So I just watched Turins video of skaven vs dark elves which you can see here, and my god is the RoR version of the poison wind mortar completely OP and very janky,



    Not only does this unit cripple literally everything it hits, with super high accuracy, but it seems that other artillary seems to have minimal effect on them. The dark elf reaper bolt thrower was hitting the RoR Poison Wind Mortor for almost half the match and they were not taking any damage or lose any units when the bolts made contact. It only took damage when the bloodwrack shrine got in range. Seriously what is up this unit?

    Even if the hit detection was fixed, I have seen other matches where they can outright just delete other elite infantry before they even reach the front lines.

    Seriously they need a damage nerf and they need to also fixed so that missles that hit them actually do damage.

    Looks like a wait and see kind of deal to me. Queen Bess also does insane amounts of damage when you let it hit something, except it hasn't had a huge impact on the meta. Judging from the projectile of the mortars, I don't expect them to be much harder to dodge than a queen bess shot, and the team itself is still snipable by long range skirmishing/artillery. There is also the case of whether it's possible to protect something that expensive from a rush while still affording ample anti large tools
    You can protect it with new lore of magic and that on spell giving stalk and skaven have so much slow now... well will have to wait and see.
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 397Registered Users
    edited December 4

    @Aerocrastic Were you given early access?

    How effective is other counter artillery, like say great cannons, against the poison wind mortars? Why was the bolt thrower doing jack all?

    It looked to me like the bolt throwers were missing pretty often, could be a pathing or targeting issue. This is early access that the battles are being played on so it could just be a minor bug with the hitbox. As for counter artillery with things like cannons, each mortar model has around 326 HP (maybe the game engine rounds this up to 327 but this is probably rarely ever going to be relevant) meaning that spirit leech will peel 3 models off each cast basically guaranteed for the first 2 casts and I think something with the damage profile of a cannon will take 2 hits to kill. Compare these to Jezzails with 24 models and I'm pretty sure the latter is actually more difficult to kill from range.
    Post edited by Aerocrastic on
  • Infinite_MawInfinite_Maw Posts: 1,468Registered Users

    @Aerocrastic Were you given early access?

    How effective is other counter artillery, like say great cannons, against the poison wind mortars? Why was the bolt thrower doing jack all?

    It looked to me like the bolt throwers were missing pretty often, could be a pathing or targeting issue. This is early access that the battles are being played on so it could just be a minor bug with the hitbox. As for counter artillery with things like cannons, each mortar model has around 326 HP (maybe the game engine rounds this up to 327 but this is probably rarely ever going to be relevant) meaning that spirit leech will peel 3 models off each cast guaranteed (.002% chance to fail) and I think something with the damage profile of a cannon will take 2 hits to kill. Compare these to Jezzails with 24 models and I'm pretty sure the latter is actually more difficult to kill from range.
    The bug hitbox is a big issue though, especially because all elves have some good short-mid range options but very limited long artillery. Greenskins especially can get screwed over by this weakness too.

    Although I do agree that a good overcast spirit leech could be very effective.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,257Registered Users
    I expect the Mortar RoR to be busted if it stays like this.

    Bolt Throwers on a side note could use better accuracy or actually hit reliably, their bolts fall short very often vs a number of targets, including cavalry, thus drastically decreasing their performance.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,322Registered Users
    I did indeed see the bolt thrower land a direct shot on a model and the HP of the team stayed the same for some reason.

    It looks like if it's expensive enough it will be balanced similar to QB
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 574Registered Users
    edited December 3
    They seems to be basically a mini-Bess without the weaknesses that Bess has, e.g. not being an artillery piece with a huge hitbox + the immobility. Hopefully its reflected by the price.

    What concerns me more though are the slows + nets that they get. In this battle Turin could bring 4 different slows and nets (gutter runners poison, Snitch's sigil, ratling gunners and Warp grinders).

    But, whatever, probably have to wait and see, but i am concerned about the balance.
    Post edited by Cirdan on
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Posts: 510Registered Users
    edited December 3
    More like a skaven version of flame cannon basically.
    I think it even has almost the same price as flame cannon. Is the price 1450?
    Maybe some of the testers or CA can go in and see if there is a glitch causing them to not take damage from those bolt throwers tho.

    Edit: was 1400 before the newest balance pass at least. (same as flame cannon price)
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 367Registered Users
    Every streamer I've seen with early access has commented this unit seems OP. The idea that it's not more powerful than Queen Bess is basically saying it's OP, as it's Queen Bess with something like triple the speed and a third of the hitbox.

  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 397Registered Users

    Every streamer I've seen with early access has commented this unit seems OP. The idea that it's not more powerful than Queen Bess is basically saying it's OP, as it's Queen Bess with something like triple the speed and a third of the hitbox.

    Queen Bess gets unbreakable chaff to protect it and summons. In addition to this, coast normally sees infantry as a problem unit whereas Skaven see people instead trying to spend as little in infantry as possible. If you take the wrong units vs Skaven then it can certainly perform, but I don't see it being good against the chariot/monster/monstrous infantry based builds that it is good against, and a bit like the dread saurian I don't expect it to do anything but make already difficult matchups harder and leave the other ones untouched
  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 574Registered Users
    edited December 3

    Every streamer I've seen with early access has commented this unit seems OP. The idea that it's not more powerful than Queen Bess is basically saying it's OP, as it's Queen Bess with something like triple the speed and a third of the hitbox.

    Queen Bess gets unbreakable chaff to protect it and summons. In addition to this, coast normally sees infantry as a problem unit whereas Skaven see people instead trying to spend as little in infantry as possible. If you take the wrong units vs Skaven then it can certainly perform, but I don't see it being good against the chariot/monster/monstrous infantry based builds that it is good against, and a bit like the dread saurian I don't expect it to do anything but make already difficult matchups harder and leave the other ones untouched
    Well, i think Bess is even more situational than these guys since Bess is very easy to shut down by destroying the artillery piece, which ain't possible in this case.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,777Registered Users

    Every streamer I've seen with early access has commented this unit seems OP. The idea that it's not more powerful than Queen Bess is basically saying it's OP, as it's Queen Bess with something like triple the speed and a third of the hitbox.

    Queen Bess gets unbreakable chaff to protect it and summons. In addition to this, coast normally sees infantry as a problem unit whereas Skaven see people instead trying to spend as little in infantry as possible. If you take the wrong units vs Skaven then it can certainly perform, but I don't see it being good against the chariot/monster/monstrous infantry based builds that it is good against, and a bit like the dread saurian I don't expect it to do anything but make already difficult matchups harder and leave the other ones untouched
    Well if there's two ways to play it (either mobile/SEM style or mass archer style) and if one unit shuts down one style and mass slows shut down the other style then there could be trouble. ROR lobbers should at least be vulnerable to BTs I hope, otherwise it's busted. I really hope it's not that bad but I don't feel any confidence at all in the dlc team at the moment.

    On the flipside I'll enjoy a ROR Moon Dragon with bound nets, AOE debuff, regen and unbreakable next DLC... :trollface:
  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Posts: 594Registered Users
    edited December 3
    An unsnipeable Bess would be worth what, 2000? 2500? And this is 1400. Lower range you could say is largely priced in by extra mobility, so this looks v. underpriced.

    I see Aero's point about heavy infantry builds being unfavoured, but this thing would still pay for itself and then some even if sitting on 400-500g infantry as it would break several before engagement.

    And as shown in Turin's videos it will also decimate cav because it doesn't seem to be reliant on high model count as a regular mortar is - per model damage is significant. So it's hard to see any scenario where it's not worth bringing on current evidence.
  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Posts: 239Registered Users
    expecting it to be OP on the release is a normal thing, that's how usually it is, especially when so many new toys are introduced at once
  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 110Registered Users
    Im not sure if i will be willing to play against the rats till the next nerfhammer
    All the games will be like : have you been able to take out this purple cluster OP unit with affordable loses or not?
    With all the slows and blocks at their disposal it will be haaard
    I just cant imagine some good counterplay against this team
  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 446Registered Users

    Im not sure if i will be willing to play against the rats till the next nerfhammer
    All the games will be like : have you been able to take out this purple cluster OP unit with affordable loses or not?
    With all the slows and blocks at their disposal it will be haaard
    I just cant imagine some good counterplay against this team

    Magic missiles with good range and from good angle could be good. Getting double Arrow of Kurnous on them could be so tasty...

  • another505another505 Posts: 1,088Registered Users
    Its pretty powerful... with all slow and snare cheap inf bog and better summons.

    Its going to be worse than queen bess
    Queen fires one round at a time and can be dodgd. This is really hard
  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 110Registered Users
    Zeblasky said:

    Im not sure if i will be willing to play against the rats till the next nerfhammer
    All the games will be like : have you been able to take out this purple cluster OP unit with affordable loses or not?
    With all the slows and blocks at their disposal it will be haaard
    I just cant imagine some good counterplay against this team

    Magic missiles with good range and from good angle could be good. Getting double Arrow of Kurnous on them could be so tasty...

    I dont like teching against one certain unit if you know what i mean since your putting yourself already at the disadvantage before the battle
    plus you need better blast radius,Kurnous is good against war machines or SEM
    Somebody proposed spirit leech well good luck overcasting yourself to death since 100m cast is a fantasy
    This unit is not spray and pray , its spray and welcome in valuetown

  • ZeblaskyZeblasky Posts: 446Registered Users


    Queen fires one round at a time and can be dodgd. This is really hard

    Actually it's a really valid point. Unless you invest into Gunnery Wight support, almost all Queen Bess ammo can be dodged. Also queen need a buff in form of its slow removal(it screws with its accuracy), but we can discuss it later.

    But no such counterplay here with that huge and a bit random AOE. If mortar RoR shoots at you, unless you're cavary, you won't dodge it in time. And even if you're cavalry, you could still get hit.


    I dont like teching against one certain unit if you know what i mean since your putting yourself already at the disadvantage before the battle
    plus you need better blast radius,Kurnous is good against war machines or SEM

    Agree with you on a first part(even if sometimes it's nessesary when a unit is meta and a heavy investment like mass Waywatchers). But oh boy I disagree on a second part. Launch Arrow of Kurnous from the side into let's say Black Guard and see what happens. On a very few rare casts I got around 60% HP worth of damage just form one shot. Still, Mortars are pretty spread out, so we will need testing on how magic missiles will work here.
  • LamentationsLamentations Posts: 128Registered Users
    Seems the mortar has been nerfed hard in the most recent build shown.
  • DatHomieSilverSurferDatHomieSilverSurfer Posts: 148Registered Users

    Seems the mortar has been nerfed hard in the most recent build shown.

    yea, in the unit test Zerkovich did, 3 units of them firing simultaneously did significantly less damage against massive clumps of dreadspears than I expected. If they get a cost reduction or slight damage increase then they'll be fine, otherwise I foresee another fun but impotently expensive unit relegated to singleplayer. Hell, based on their current performance, I don't even know if they'd be worth the cost to field in single player
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,257Registered Users

    Seems the mortar has been nerfed hard in the most recent build shown.

    yea, in the unit test Zerkovich did, 3 units of them firing simultaneously did significantly less damage against massive clumps of dreadspears than I expected. If they get a cost reduction or slight damage increase then they'll be fine, otherwise I foresee another fun but impotently expensive unit relegated to singleplayer. Hell, based on their current performance, I don't even know if they'd be worth the cost to field in single player
    it’s OK, it seems some broken toys will still be there, for Skaven in the form of sheer variety of builds you can bring (also RoR triads is broken and too cheap), for DE in the form of new Chariots and Malus. Do not despair you will be able to abuse ladder for a few months.
  • LamentationsLamentations Posts: 128Registered Users
    It’s okay Green0 High elves will get their DLC someday.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,257Registered Users

    It’s okay Green0 High elves will get their DLC someday.

    lol who cares about HE why do you have to make it personal
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Posts: 510Registered Users
    edited December 6
    Looking at the test video of the unit after the nerfs to damage along with a price increase to 1500 I think this unit will be one that is never picked after everyone tries it out a little bit.
    It may be fun to use in campaign though and it looks cool when it fires.
    At least the new non ror mortars are a bit better now it seems.
    Mortars at 15:00 into the vid.
  • DatHomieSilverSurferDatHomieSilverSurfer Posts: 148Registered Users
    edited December 6
    Green0 said:

    Seems the mortar has been nerfed hard in the most recent build shown.

    yea, in the unit test Zerkovich did, 3 units of them firing simultaneously did significantly less damage against massive clumps of dreadspears than I expected. If they get a cost reduction or slight damage increase then they'll be fine, otherwise I foresee another fun but impotently expensive unit relegated to singleplayer. Hell, based on their current performance, I don't even know if they'd be worth the cost to field in single player
    it’s OK, it seems some broken toys will still be there, for Skaven in the form of sheer variety of builds you can bring (also RoR triads is broken and too cheap), for DE in the form of new Chariots and Malus. Do not despair you will be able to abuse ladder for a few months.
    I'm terrible at the game, I couldn't abuse ladder if I tried. I just don't think that units have to be underpowered intentionally due to other overpowered units in a roster. Having a cost-worthy unit to at least compete with natty bubous in some circumstances would effectively make the game more fun and diverse for most players.

    thanks for continuing to be an a-hole though
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,777Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    Seems the mortar has been nerfed hard in the most recent build shown.

    yea, in the unit test Zerkovich did, 3 units of them firing simultaneously did significantly less damage against massive clumps of dreadspears than I expected. If they get a cost reduction or slight damage increase then they'll be fine, otherwise I foresee another fun but impotently expensive unit relegated to singleplayer. Hell, based on their current performance, I don't even know if they'd be worth the cost to field in single player
    it’s OK, it seems some broken toys will still be there, for Skaven in the form of sheer variety of builds you can bring (also RoR triads is broken and too cheap), for DE in the form of new Chariots and Malus. Do not despair you will be able to abuse ladder for a few months.
    I'm terrible at the game, I couldn't abuse ladder if I tried. I just don't think that units have to be underpowered intentionally due to other overpowered units in a roster. Having a cost-worthy unit to at least compete with natty bubous in some circumstances would effectively make the game more fun and diverse for most players.

    thanks for continuing to be an a-hole though
    You know one broken unit can potentially ruin the mp aspect of the game for everyone. That's why people argue on these boards against some of the new stuff every dlc.
  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Posts: 239Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    Seems the mortar has been nerfed hard in the most recent build shown.

    yea, in the unit test Zerkovich did, 3 units of them firing simultaneously did significantly less damage against massive clumps of dreadspears than I expected. If they get a cost reduction or slight damage increase then they'll be fine, otherwise I foresee another fun but impotently expensive unit relegated to singleplayer. Hell, based on their current performance, I don't even know if they'd be worth the cost to field in single player
    it’s OK, it seems some broken toys will still be there, for Skaven in the form of sheer variety of builds you can bring (also RoR triads is broken and too cheap), for DE in the form of new Chariots and Malus. Do not despair you will be able to abuse ladder for a few months.
    I'm terrible at the game, I couldn't abuse ladder if I tried. I just don't think that units have to be underpowered intentionally due to other overpowered units in a roster. Having a cost-worthy unit to at least compete with natty bubous in some circumstances would effectively make the game more fun and diverse for most players.

    thanks for continuing to be an a-hole though
    so you need more OP units to compete with other OP units already in the roster

    ok, got you
  • ystyst Posts: 6,201Registered Users
    edited December 6
    Yet another blunder in CA resources. Took all those time to design a unit for 0 pick rate couldve at least make it viable. I mean why even bother making new garbage units, rubbish of sotek, engine of noobs, trash guards, joke saurian, silly razordons
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