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Dogs of War Army List Part 2: Tilea and Estalia

SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
edited January 2021 in General Discussion
Warning: Games Workshop tried to flesh out every RoR with tons of lore, so between that and trying to explain everything this post is Huge, Explore this thread at your peril! I highly suggest settling in with a cup of tea, taking breaks or just reading what piques your interest.


Links to the rest of the series




Introduction


This is part 2 of a 4-part series covering The Dogs of War and the Southern Realms as factions: who they are, what their units are and how could this function within Warhammer 2. In part 1 I covered the Dogs of War Rogue armies themselves, as well as the Border Princes, Part 2 will Cover Tilea and Estalia, part 3 will cover the Outlaw/Pirate units that will be shared across all the others and part 4 will be everything leftover.

It’s no surprise that CA hasn't decided to tackle the Dogs of War/Southern Realms yet, because it’s basically 3 factions in one! with an incredibly bloated roster of units and characters that were mentioned in various sources across 30 years of GW material. Many of the units are from all the other factions in the Warhammer world (Including 6 that aren't even in the game yet) and alot of these units like "Tichi-Huichi's Raiders" might actually be better implemented to their own races rather than the Dogs of War, so CA are likely keeping it in the wings while they decide how best to use this mountain of resources.

With this in mind, I’ve attempted to divide the content up into different sections in such a way that would allow us to get the most out of the material, with subsequent updates, DLC etc.


Who are the Tileo-Estalians?


Similar to the Border Princes, these two Countries are also made up of independent city-states that are constantly warring with one another, what sets Tilea and Estalia apart is their unique culture, as they Both groups originate from the City of Tylos which was destroyed aeons ago by the Skaven (Its ruins are known as Skavenblight today).

The Tileo-Estalian ancestors had a Greek culture and the remnants of this culture can be seen today in their religion and some of their troops. Modern-day Tileo-Estalia however has become much more like Renaissance Italy and Spain and many of their units and characters reflect this, as does their tendency to rely heavily on Mercenary forces.

These regions are the epicentre of the Myrmidian faith (Knights of the Blazing Sun) and the Cult of Morr, with both religions having their Seat of power in Tilea and Estalia. Myrmidia is the one that has the largest effect on Tileo-Estalian culture and it’s the Myrmidian faith that retains the largest Greek influences.


Implementation


Despite their reliance on Mercenaries, Tilea and Estalia still have a culture of their own and many Dogs of War units are specifically Tileo-Estalian units, having originated from the region, being deeply rooted in their culture, employing tactics specific to Tileo-Estalia and so on.

- Tilea and Estalia should have their own core roster of units that are recruited locally like any other faction in Warhammer 2. (Recruited from Buildings chains, with Technology to buff them, etc).

- Tilea and Estalia get new unique religious landmarks that allow them to recruit Religious units and heroes (Black Guard of Morr, Knights of the Blazing Sun and more).

- Miragliano also has a Unique landmark: Leonardo's Workshop, which is a multi-tier building chain and gives the owner Access to Leonardo's Inventions (this has its own Research Tree that you need to invest in to unlock these higher tier units).

- Dogs of War units who are from Tilea or Estalia (for example: Brezinga's Besiegers) should be made into Regiments of Renown for Tilea and Estalia (they would be available to other Dogs of War factions outside of Tilea and Estalia as well).

- The Tileo-Estalian core Roster is rigid, as it is missing core components. This is by design: They must rely on Dogs of War units to fill in the gaps.

- The Southern Realms are all about making it big, fighting your way to the top and becoming rich and famous. As you win more battles and grow your territory, you gain a resource known as Renown (similar to Chivalry). As you gain more Renown, you unlock access to more mercenary units and lower your armies upkeep (as you get more influential you can haggle for better rates).

- The Tileo-Estalians Have Access to every generic lord/hero and unit from part 1 and 3 in my series through their unique mercenary recruitment pool/recruitment buildings and Renown.


Legendary Lords








Generic Lords and Heroes






Tileo-Estalian Units


The Historical Origins of the Tileo-Estalian Roster
A Terico was a Spanish formation which became the dominant strategy for most of Europe during the 16th and 17th century that comprised of Pikeman, Swordsmen and Musketeers. These Terico would form up into 10 individual squares or combine into one large force: the Pikes were held with two hands and used mainly as a buffer, to stave off enemy troops and absorb cavalry charges; the Swordsmen were equipped with buckler shields, rapiers and javelins and were used to support the Pikes (who didn’t fare so well at closer range) and could conduct raids outside of the squares if needs be, while the gunners were the centrepiece of the formation and the ones with the real killing power who everyone else is there to protect.

This formation is the bedrock of the Tileo-Estalian roster: the Duelists, Pikemen and many of their Regiments of Renown echo this style (Pirazzo’s Lost Legion is less of a unit and more an entire army in this exact style), it also seems to be the reason Games Workshop decided to give Tilea and Estalia Greek cultural origins, since their formations and tactics are very reminiscent of the old Macedonian/Spartan and later Roman styles of Hoplites + Pikemen + missiles/Javelins.

CA could give us a new unit type that is a combination of all these elements, but it would be difficult to balance, and Games Workshop has already split them up into individual pieces in the 5th edition army book.



Infantry Units













Missile Units










Melee Cavalry








Missile Cavalry






Flying Melee Cavalry






Flying Missile Cavalry







Beasts and Machines






Artillery








Tileo-Estalian Regiments of Renown











(optional) Info on these characters and how they could work in WH2

Borgio the Besieger (Start Position: Miragliano, Northern Tilea)
During his days as a Mercenary General, Borgio fought against every principality in Tilea for one reason or another; from trading disputes to personal vendettas against those who tried to have him assassinated. Indeed, there were so many failed attempts to assassinate Borgio that he gained a reputation as a man you must kill more than once to be sure.

In the end, not even the ingenious ramparts of Miragliano could defy him. In 3 decisive victories, he established Miragliano as the most powerful state in Tilea, with himself as its leader. After all else failed, his enemies took to cowering within the walls of their city-states, for they had no hope of besting him in the field and no assassins blade could ever meet their mark. This is where the Prince gained his moniker “The Besieger” as he became unmatched in the art of siege warfare.

But there is more to him than an incredibly tall imposing brute, Borgio is said to write great poetry and do all his own cooking (a smart move when Lucrezzia is in your court). In a siege, he always dismounted to lead his troops over the walls personally and would often strip off his armour to dig and work with his common soldiers. This endeared him loyalty in his forces that is the envy of every other Prince in the Southern Realms.

Borgio is noted for devising unorthodox battle tactics and using new troop types, which often catches his opponent off guard. Aside from having great experience in the field and being an intellect of some repute himself, he also has access to the manuscripts of Leonardo da Miragliano from within the Pilazzo Library, which may be one of the ways he’s able to keep ahead of his competition.

The Prince of Miragliano wears a monstrous mask, to strike fear into the heart of his enemies and always charges into battle with his signature mace, that was fashioned from a cannonball which struck him during his siege of Remas. Yet another in the long line of failed attempts to fell the Prince; Borgio sees it as emblematic of his great luck and decided to wield it against his enemies. To this day, Borgio’s armour of brazen bronze retains a dent in its breastplate from where the cannonball struck.


Isabella Giovanna (Start Position: Magritta, Southern Estalia)
The Cult of Myrmidia is one of the largest and most influential religions in the old world and for the Tileo-Estalian people, Myrmidia and her teachings guide them in every facet of their day to day lives. Although the Cult of Myrmidia acts as a cultural through-line for the two countries, the two groups have been divided on their interpretation of the scripture and their history since the dawn of civilization.

On the one hand: the Tileans believe that Myrmidia was born in Remas and Conquered Estalia, while the Estalians believe that the Goddess was born in Magritta and Conquered Tilea. Both groups have their own interpretations of her teachings and this discrepancy has been the excuse for a great deal of hostility and war between the two peoples.

Currently, Magritta (Estalia) is considered to be the heart of the Myrmidian religion but the high temple in Remas (Tilea) seeks to undermine them at every turn. Isabella Giovanna is a Tilean Born woman who has risen through the ranks of the cult to become the High Priest. Naturally, with her being Tilean born and bred, her countrymen assumed that she would support the High temple of Remas and tip the scales in favour of their doctrine, however, Giovanna shocked the world by moving to Magritta and openly supporting the Estalians.

Naturally, this has caused immense hostility and resentment from the Tileans, but her hopes are to end the fighting between the two groups, Uniting the Myrmidian faith and by extension: the whole of Tilea and Estalia under one banner, as it was for the briefest of moments under the rule of the Goddess herself at the beginning of their civilization.


Lorenzo Lupo (Start Position: Luccini, Southern Tilea)
The city of Luccini’s origins lie with its founding twins “Lucan and Lucinna”, when they were children, the pair lost themselves in the wilderness of Tilea and sought refuge in a cave at the summit of a great rock, that would one day become the Acropolis of their mighty city. The Cave proved to be home to a mighty beast: A Leopard with tree tails and two heads; instead of eating the children, the creature raised them as if they were her own cubs. The mother leopard would protect them from any danger, teach them to hunt and foretell their great future. One of the leopard’s heads gave prophecies of great fortune, while the other issued warnings of terrible hardship. The twins were told time and again that they were destined to found one of the mightiest cities in the old world upon the lands they roamed, and rule as king and queen…but that their descendants would fight over their succession for the rest of time, splitting everything they’d accomplished in two.

And so it came to pass, as the pair would build their mighty city and sure enough it would be split down the middle, with decedents of Lucan (the Lupo’s) and Lucinna (di Lucci’s) fighting between each other for control of the principality. This divide would bleed the city dry for centuries until the arrival of one Lorenzo Lupo, who claimed to be descended from both Lucan and Luccini and claimed the throne, uniting both houses and exiling or executing any competitors to the throne.

Lorenzo was fiercely proud of his lineage and determined to consolidate the cities divisions and return its former glory. In light of this goal, he has taken to collecting antiques and revitalizing his peoples old (Greek-inspired) culture that has faded over the centuries (as Tileo-Estalia became more like renaissance Italy and Spain). He has redecorated the Palazzo in the ancient Tilean style, re-aquiring and returning many of the Lucinian statues and paintings to their rightful place.

His prized possessions however, are those that he wears into battle, said to be the heirlooms of Lucan and Lucinna themselves, Lorenzo wears Tilean armour, in the old-fashioned style, the ring of the sister Lucinna, wields the sword of the brother Lucan, and a shield of the Myrmidian cult. Lorenzo also conducts himself like his forbears, training in ancient Tilean athletic pursuits and fighting only on foot. This fixation with antiquity might seem quaint, even ridiculous to some of his rivals were he not such a formidable warrior and a brilliant tactician; during his short tenure as king, he has consolidated his principality for the first time in over 1000 years and established himself as one of the best generals in the old World.


Lucrezzia Belladonna (Start Position: Pavona, Eastern Tilea)
Lucrezzia Belladonna is the most beautiful woman in Tilea, and some say the whole world! But don’t let her exterior fool you, for she is as dangerous to know as she is catching to the eye. She is well known as a powerful sorceress and rumoured to be an arch poisoner and mistress of many assassins!

Lucrezzia was married off to her first husband Luigi, the prince of Pavona when she had barely reached maturity and it wasn’t long before she became unfortunately all too familiar in the ways of Tileo-Estalian politics, for her first husband died just a few short years later to the assassins of a rival prince, in lieu of her husbands death, young Lucrezzia was determined to keep hold of her husbands principality at all costs.

To secure her holdings, Lucrezzia would go on to marry several mercenary generals who commanded armies in defence of her city and every one of her new husbands met with strange and untimely death (usually when their political and strategic use had run dry). All 7 of her husbands have so far succumbed to one kind of poison or another and often when they were about to step out of line against Lucrezzia or her brother-in-law Borgio.

Lucrezzia is heavily based off of Lucrezia Borgia, the famous daughter of Pope Alexander VI. In-game she would function similar to Khalida, with poison abilities, she can buff leadership thanks to her enchanting beauty and she’s a powerful sorceress of either Death, Shadows or a mixture.


More Information and sources will be in the Posts directly below this.

Source List:
Legendary Lords

Borgio the Besieger
-DoW 5th ed Army Book
-Warhammer Chronicles 2003 Pg 112
-White Dwarf #266, pg 36

Isabella Giovanna
-Warhammer RPG 2nd ed Core, pg 182
-Warhammer RPG 2nd ed Tome of Salvation, pg 40, 45

Lorenzo Lupo
-DoW 5th ed Army Book
-Warhammer Chronicles 2003 Pg 113
-White Dwarf #228, pg 43-44
-White Dwarf #266, pg 37

Lucrezzia Belladonna
-DoW 5th ed Army Book
-Warhammer Chronicles 2003 Pg 111
-White Dwarf #225, pg 14-15
-White Dwarf #266, pg 35


Generic Lords and Heroes

Merchant Prince
-DoW 5th ed Army Book
-Warhammer RPG 4th ed Rulebook

Priestess of Myrmidia
-Warhammer RPG 2nd ed Core
-Warhammer RPG 2nd ed Tome of Salvation

Diestros
-Warhammer RPG 2nd ed Core Rulebook
-Warhammer RPG 2nd ed Career Compendium
- Town Cryer Issue 14 Pg 24


Infantry Units

Tilean Terico Pikemen
-Warhammer Chronicles 2004 Pg 58
-White Dwarf #251, pg 34

Estalian Glaive Tericos
-Monstrous Archanum Pg 7

Paymaster Bodyguard
-Dogs of War 5th ed Army Book
-White Dwarf #251, pg 35

Duelists
-Warhammer Chronicles 2004 Pg 58
-Town Cryer Issue 14 Pg 24
-White Dwarf #251, pg 34

Gladiator Champions
-Warhammer RPG 2nd ed Core Rulebook
-Town Cryer Issue 14 Pg 28-39
-Town Cryer Issue 21 Inside front cover and Pg 2-8

Shieldmaidens of Myrmidia
-Warhammer RPG 2nd ed Tome of Salvation, pg 41, 44, 45, 228

Sisters of Fury
-Warhammer RPG 2nd ed Tome of Salvation Pg 44-45, 216, 226-227

Black Guard of Morr
-Warhammer RPG 2nd ed Tome of Salvation
-Warhammer RPG 2nd ed Night’s Dark Masters
-Warhammer RPG 2nd ed Career Compendium


Missile Units

Crossbowmen
-Warhammer Chronicles 2004 Pg 58
-White Dwarf #251, pg 34

Musketeers
-Warhammer Armies 3rd edition Pg 161

Crossbowmen and Musketeers w/ Pavise
(See Braganza's Besiegers)

Halfling Archers and Poachers
-White Dwarf: The Hungry Horde
-Warhammer Chronicles 2004 Pg 60
- White Dwarf #150, pg 31-34
- White Dwarf #251, pg 36

Alchemy Grenadiers
-6th ed Dwarf Army Book
-DoW 5th ed Army Book
(Based on an RoR and a weapon of Leonardo da Miragliano's)


Melee Cavalry

Halfling Battle Ram Riders
-White Dwarf: The Hungry Horde

Order of the Righteous Spear
-Warhammer RPG 2nd ed Core


Missile Cavalry

Halfling Goat Riders
-White Dwarf: The Hungry Horde

Stradiots
-Based on their light cavalry in their Army Book.


Flying Melee Cavalry

Halfling Great Eagle Riders
-White Dwarf: The Hungry Horde

Pegasus Companions
-Based on the fact their generals can have Pegasus mounts.
The name was also taken from Macedonian Cavalry and their
look is a little inspired by Greek Myths. CA did this once before with
Hippogryph Knights for Bretonnia, taking a mount option and making
It a unit, so I suggest they could do the same here.


Flying Missile Cavalry

Leonardo's Arial Screw
-Fun Idea based on Da Vinci's real inventions and they hold a similarity to Dwarf War Balloons.

Halfling Swan Riders
-White Dwarf: The Hungry Horde

Birdmen w/ Crossbows
(See the Birdmen of Catrazza)


Beasts and Machines

Leonardo's Turtle Tank
-In WH Fantasy he built the Steam Tank Instead but it would be so great if they expanded upon the
idea of his inventions.

Leonardo's Colossus
-Another real-life Leo invention. Considering they have no real large creatures or Machines in their base cultural roster, these would be cool additions.


Artillery Units

Ballista
-Warhammer Siege: Rulebook 3rd ed

Galloper Guns
(See Bronzino's Galloper Guns section)

Halfling Hot Pot
-Empire 5th ed Army Book
-Warhammer Chronicles 2004 Pg 60
-White Dwarf #251, pg 36

Ribaults
-a logical companion to the Ballista


Tileo-Estalian Regiments of Renown

The birdmen of Catrazza
-DoW 5th ed Army Book
-Warhammer Chronicles 2004 Pg 66
-White Dwarf #226, pg 45
-White Dwarf #252, pg 10

Braganza’s Besiegers
-DoW 5th ed Army Book
-Warhammer Chronicles 2004 Pg 64
-White Dwarf #252, pg 10

Bronzino’s Galloper Guns
-DoW 5th ed Army Book
-Warhammer Chronicles 2004 Pg 66
-White Dwarf#225, pg 10
-White Dwarf #2226, pg 43
-White Dwarf #318, pg 66

Leopold’s Leopard Company
-DoW 5th ed Army Book
-Warhammer Chronicles 2004 Pg 62
-White Dwarf #226, pg 42
-White Dwarf #252, pg 9

Marksman of Miragliano
-DoW 5th ed Army Book
-Warhammer Chronicles 2004 Pg 63
-White Dwarf #225, pg 11
-White Dwarf #252, pg 7

Ricco’s Republican Guard
-DoW 5th ed Army Book
-Warhammer Chronicles 2004 Pg 62
-White Dwarf #252, pg 6

The Alcatani Fellowship
-DoW 5th ed Army Book
-Warhammer Chronicles 2004 Pg 62
-White Dwarf #225, pg 16
-White Dwarf #252, pg 7

Voland’s Venators
-DoW 5th ed Army Book
-Warhammer Chronicles 2004 Pg 64
-White Dwarf #228, pg 45
-White Dwarf #252, pg 7
Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on

Comments

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited January 2021
    Infantry Units


    Tilean Terico Pikemen
    With what I just said in mind: the Terico Pikemen that make up the core of the Tilean roster and act as a Phalanx/Yari Wall unit like we have seen in Total War so many times before.

    This unit will be able to punch well above its weight if it’s able to get into formation, but it will be very vulnerable on the flanks, rigid and slow while in this stance (you will need Duellists or some other unit to protect its flanks). They also lack armour and have no shields so they’re very vulnerable to missile fire.


    Estalian Glaive Tericos
    The Estalians use the same tactics as their Tilean cousins, but with different equipment and strengths. Its hard to determine how the two weapons would function differently in game, but generally speaking, Pikes would be longer and better at absorbing cavalry charges; Glaives are shorter and more effective at slashing and dismounting cavalry riders than they are at absorbing charges. This unit is mentioned in the 8th Edition "Monsterous Archanum", making it one of the Only legitimate 8th edition Dogs of War/Southern Realm units.


    Paymasters Bodyguard / Generic Republican Guard
    A higher tier version of the Basic Terico Phalanx with high armour, charge defence against all, better stats etc. Could be given the Guardian trait or other similar benefits to buff and protect nearby allied Lords/Heroes and could gain massive defensive buffs themselves when engaged in combat with an enemy Lord/Hero (making them a very effective unit to slow down and chip away at enemy characters without taking severe damage themselves).


    Duellists
    Somewhere between Bleakswords and Sisters of Slaughter: Duellists are a mid-tier sword unit with low armour, low missile resistance and a bronze shield, but high attack and dodge/parry, meaning they are great at dealing damage and avoiding it. Duellists are meant to be used on the flanks of your Spearmen core, but they can hold against other infantry if needs be.


    Spartan Skirmishers
    A common tactic employed by the Spartans and Roman’s was to equip their men with a javelin, a spear and a sword; they would throw their javelins before the engagement and use their spears to brace and keep the enemy at bay but once their formation was compromised, they'd switch to the more flexible sword (this again echoes the Terico formation).

    The Alcitani fellowship and by extension this generic version could have Javelin missiles like Skinks and a brace ability that allows them to use their spears to give them charge defence against all or even charge reflection (like in 3 Kingdoms) from the front. Once they engage in melee though, they use their swords to fight.

    A very strong and versatile unit that fits right in-between the Terico and Greeko-Roman inspiration for the Faction.


    Gladiator Champions
    The Gladiatorial area’s in Tileao-Estalia is one of the highest forms of entertainment for its people. In days gone by, it was used as a cathartic and effective means of punishing criminals and disposing of disobedient slaves. Even today, most of the fighters In the Colosseum's of Tileo-Estalia are criminals, Prisoners of war and slaves alike, but in recent times many of the fighters have won their freedom and many more nobles have stepped into the arena seeking glory, although most find only death and suffering.

    Pit Fighters are forced to engage in different types of fights, from bare knuckle brawls, to duels with mighty beasts of the Old World. In the most common style Pit Fights however, the combatants were able to pick from different fighting styles, which were constructed like classes in an RPG and were designed to counter certain other classes of gladiators, Heavy tanks fighters with large shields would be pitted against more agile fighters with a dagger and buckler shield, spearmen against swords and so on.

    Gladiator Champions are a higher cast than the common Pit Fighters, many are victors of past Colosseum games and many more are nobles looking for some easy victories against far less equipped combatants. They take their style from the "Murmillo" Gladiators, with a large sword and shield and the most armour, they’re the brutes/tanks of the Gladiator classes.


    Shield-maidens of Myrmidia
    Much like Sigmar, the Goddess Myrmidia was once a mortal who Ascended to godhood among her people when she united the Southern Realms under her banner. Myrmidia accomplished this great feat with a personal retinue of Shield-Maidens at her side, hand-picked by the goddess herself. Since her tragic assassination the Myrmidian religion has become notorious for its popularity among woman and is noted as one of the only institutions in the Old World where they can participate in warfare and hold positions of power.

    The honorary position of a Shieldmaiden has been passed down long after Myrmidia herself faded into myth and to this day, woman of the Myrmidian faith will take up arms to defend her mighty temples and protect her children of the Southern Realms.

    The Shieldmaidens, like the “Hypaspists” (their ancient Macedonian counterparts), would function as an elite Anti-Large spear infantry. Due to their expertise on the battlefield, they can work independently from the Phalanx frontline and act a flexible link between the Infantry and cavalry (often in conjunction with Skirmishers).


    Sisters of Fury
    The Order of Fury is a sacred order of the Cult of Myrmidia, dedicated to one of her most tragic and vengeful followers.

    When she was but a mortal, Myrmidia drew many heroes to her side, but none are more famous than the Shieldmaiden "Fury". Her tale is recorded in the Bellona Myrmidia and is one full of horror, pain, and betrayal. The events of the sad story result in a young girl renouncing her name and swearing to claim revenge for all the dark deeds of the world, a task she takes to with unparalleled passion and anger. Although it pained her, Myrmidia could not bring herself to stop the girl, for she intimately understood the source of Fury's rage. Instead, Myrmidia did what she had to; she used the girl on the battlefield. There, Fury slew and slew and slew, until eventually, one all her enemies were gone, she collapsed, weeping. Fury's last stand was in the Abasko Mountains. There, her body was found by Myrmidia, surrounded by piles of dead Orcs and Goblins. The site is now protected by the order's high temple.

    Even though the Order of Fury is mostly comprised of women in Estalia and Tilea, in the Empire it is almost exclusively male. The order is gaining popularity and already has four temples in Reikland alone.

    The Order of Fury could be a higher tier Shieldmaiden Cult of Myrmidia unit similar to Sisters of Slaughter but with frenzy, less dodge and more missile-block chance. They also have 'the Blessing of Fury' and 'Fury's Call' abilities. The first could be similar to the Wardancers ability and the second either boosts the stats or leadership of units around them.


    Black Guard of Morr
    A unit that is often associated with the Empire, however, the heart of the religion and their main chapter house actually lies in Luccini, Tilea. The Cult of Morr played an important role in the Crusades against Araby and even continued their own “Black Crusade” against the Tomb Kings (Because they’re undead) long after Sultan Jaffar was dethroned.

    The Black Guard are the intimidating watchmen who protect the open portals of the Temples of Morr. To civilian onlookers, the intimidating, motionless and silent guards seem to never move from their vigil for days or even weeks at a time. In reality, their full plate armour makes them indistinguishable from one another and they change shifts with such efficiency that even a careful onlooker could miss it within the blink of an eye.

    A very heavy infantry unit with Halberds that essentially works just like the Black Guard of Naggarond, but they cause Fear and Terror.



    Missile Units


    Crossbow with Pavise
    This unit carries heavy shields and has a toggle ability to plant them in place. While carrying their shields, they have high melee defence but lower accuracy. Once planted they are more vulnerable to melee units, but they gain bonuses to range and accuracy. No matter their stance, this unit has exceptional missile resistance and is very good for advancing on the walls during sieges. (In real life they carried their shields on their back, but they could function like Darkshards with larger shields).


    Halfling Archers and Poachers
    Halflings are not warlike people, but there are few among them that just cannot settle in the peaceful land of the Moot. These ‘adventure-loving weirdos’, as they are referred to by other Halflings, often decide to band together and wander the world as hired bowmen.

    These Halfling units take no forest penalties, have stalk. The Poachers are also Anti-Large and vanguard deployment, like Empire Huntsman.


    Musketeers with Pavise
    AP, straight shooting versions of the Crossbows w/ Pavise. Same differences between them as with Empire Crossbows and Handgunners. Trade effectively into enemy fire (so long as they have line of sight) and have decent defencive stats.


    Alchemical Grenadiers
    Based on “Ludwig’s Wondrous Grenadiers” and on Leonardo da Marigliano's TT Weapon. Leonardo devised an alchemical concoction and fashioned it into a noxious chemical bomb to defend himself. If they were to appear as alchemical grenadiers, then they would function like Skaven Globadiers with pistols, or they could work like Empire Grenade Launchers with different ammunition.



    Melee Cavalry


    Halfling Battle Ram Riders
    Halfling Heavy melee Cavalry with a Powerful headbutt, kick and a thick woolly coat that makes them very hard to hurt (physical resistance or ward save even). They’re still Halflings though and as such they’re still low to mid-tier when compared to other factions’ cavalry.


    Order of the Righteous Spear
    This Templar order within the Cult of Myrmidia goes by many names: The Order of the Righteous Spear, Knights of the Starry Shield, Knights of the Merciless Titan. Though their banners are adorned with different names, the orders shimmering glory on the battlefield can never be mistaken.

    Another Templar Order of Myrmidia like the Knights of the Blazing Sun. The Order of the Righteous Spear is likely based on the Macedonian Companions Cavalry and they would be Anti-Large (With fire Attacks?) With their chapter house Based in Magritta where the heart of the religion lies.


    Missile Cavalry


    Halfling Goat Riders
    Halfling Skirmish Cavalry with the Same animations as the Wild Riders/Sisters of the Thorn. They’re very fast, have a 360-degree fire arch, Vanguard Deployment and take no forest penalties.


    Stradiots
    Light Skirmisher Cavalry with Tilea’s signature Crossbows. Scouting ahead of the army, harrying the enemy supply line, attacking vulnerable war machines and engaging the flanks of the enemy line are but a few of the roles performed by these precious troops. Riders from Araby or from the steppes of Kislev are the best choice available to mercenary generals, but sometimes they have to rely on their own roused militia.

    Stradiots would work like Mounted Yeomen Archers, a very low tier cavalry unit meant to harass the enemy.



    Flying Melee Cavalry


    Halfling Great Eagle Riders
    It is a well-known saying that when the Halflings are in trouble, along come the Lords of the Air: The Great Eagles. These units are often made up of 2-3 Great Eagles with Halfling Archers on their back. This unit would be like the Wood Elf Hawk Riders. If we are going to make them only 3 units strong then they should be more focused on sustained melee combat, with a stronger projectile than the Hawk Riders.


    Pegasus Companions
    Considering Mercenary Generals/Captains have access to Pegasus, it made sense to include this. Flying Melee Cavalry with Anti-Large that is similar their Bretonnian counterparts (all be it a little weaker).



    Flying Missile Cavalry


    Leonardo’s Aerial Screw
    This isn’t in the lore. “Leonardo de Miragliano” in the lore is based off of the real world “Leonardo da Vinci” and GW never translated all of Leo’s Inventions into Warhammer so this is one of the options I think could be included.

    The Areal Screw was Leonardo’s attempt at making a helicopter and so this could be a flying platform with some gunners and the ability to drop bombs on the enemy.


    Halfling Swan Riders
    These large birds make ideal mounts for transporting troops around the battlefield quickly. They are also very aggressive and kill with their powerful wings. They usually fly in a "V" formation. Their riders are the best bowmen the Moot's bowmen has to offer and can skilfully fire whilst moving in a 360-degree arch.


    Birdmen with Crossbows
    Generic version of The Birdmen of Catrazza.



    Beasts and Machines


    Leonardo’s Turtle Tank
    This is another one of Leonardo da Vinci’s inventions that isn’t in the lore but could be good to see. In the lore: Leo Invented the Steam Tank instead of this, but that’s already an Empire unit and this would fill that spot far better, I think.

    This is a Tank with multiple cannons pointing in every direction that can fire whilst moving. It fits right at home with the over the top and wacky elements of the Halflings, Southern Realms and the Marienburg Land Ship and would function like a single entity War Wagon with high physical resistance.


    Leonardo’s Colossus
    Now we come to the last of Leonardo da Vinci’s Inventions that aren’t officially in the lore. In reality, this was intended to be the largest equestrian statue in the world at 8-10 metres tall. Leo worked for 10+ years on the preparation, studying horses, writing up dissertations on horse anatomy and working on the plans for the statue. He created a clay cast of it but before it could be constructed, his benefactor gave away all the Bronze to his brother to be used in defence of his city and the clay cast became nothing more than target practice for the French who captured the city not long after.

    In Warhammer this could be a large mechanical horse, functioning like a Carnosaur (large, single entity with a great charge bonus). It’s a great marriage of the Greek and Italian themes (a combination of the Trojan horse and Leo’s unfulfilled project).
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited January 2021
    Artillery Units


    Ballista
    It is stated in the Lore that they Use Ballista’s. These would be larger and more powerful and effective versions of Dwarven Bolt Throwers.


    Galloper Guns
    Since Dogs of War armies are always on the move, they cannot afford to carry and maintain the massive Great Cannons typical of the Empire or Dwarfs. For this reason, mercenary armies’ favour smaller calibre guns that can be easily transported around the battlefield. Galloper Guns are treasured by any mercenary General that can get their hands on some, as they are one of the most unique and reliable artillery pieces the Dogs of War have at their disposal.

    These Mobile cannons can fire behind them whilst moving and have a middling range (they work best up close). they would fill a similar role to the Dwarf Goblin Hewer, as a mobile artillery piece that could work best on the flanks.


    Halfling Hot Pot
    Originally a desperate innovation, the Halfling Hot Pot has now become something of an institution amongst Halflings. The Hot Pot is exactly that, a pot of boiling Stew, hurled at the enemy's ranks: burning, scalding and even dissolving the foe. The ingredients which make up the special stew are a closely kept secret and vary from chef to chef. At a push boiling oil on its own will do the job, but a typical mixture has corrosive properties and is sticky so that it adheres to exposed flesh.



    Ribaults
    These Organ Guns are smaller and less powerful than their Dwarven counterparts, but they have exceptional missile defence because of their Gun Shield and Mantlets that they take with them. They also have charge defence against Large from the front, because of their shields and spear/Palisades at the front.



    Tileo-Estalian Regiments of Renown


    The birdmen of Catrazza
    Leonardo da Marigliano was a genius in his day, creating many of the wonders of engineering we know today like the Steam Tank. However, he was never able to conquer the ability to fly and famously met his end when he tried to fly over the Empire engineering school…and promptly crashed through the roof.

    Many centuries later, a well-known craftsmen Daddallo came across forgeries of Leonardo’s manuscripts and became obsessed with trying to perfect his flying contraption, Daddallo too ended up crashing through a roof and landing himself in jail in the leaning tower of Verezzo. Still this did not stop his obsession and Daddallo broke apart the bed in his prison cell and flew out the window across the city to safety in a spectacular fashion.

    Daddallo would spend the next year training a mercenary band to effectively use his flying contraption and when their training was complete, the band was met with instant success, being employed all over to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat and save princesses from towers.


    Braganza’s Besiegers
    One of the many unorthodox units concocted by Borgio the Besieger, he was looking for a unit of marksmen who could pick off defenders on the walls at close range in the face of a hail of arrows; hold the ramparts against any assault, provide missile support for sappers and miners, man siege towers and, if needs be, stand their ground against enemy units sallying out of the enemies gates.

    Braganza and his Besiegers proved their worth to Borgio in spades and after winning the prince many victories, he offered to find them work elsewhere, in exchange for a cut of the profits. Braganza naturally agreed, for to turn down Borgio’s kindness was not only impolite, but often a fatal course of action. Soon the regiment set sail for new horizons, from besieging pirate strongholds in Estalia, to aiding the Dwarfs in retaking one of their outposts in the Badlands. If you need a settlement taken, the Besiegers will offer you Invincibility at no extra charge.

    Braganza’s Besiegers have heavy armour and could be much better melee combatants than their generic counterparts.


    Bronzino’s Galloper Guns
    Bronzino’s Gallopers were the first Tileo-Estalian unit to repurpose lightweight cannons usually mounted onto Galleys and fix them to specially made carriages. This was done on the orders of their master gunner Bronzino who was hired into the service of Borgio the Besieger and this innovation secured their victory, every time the Galloper Guns were employed.

    The cannons are smaller calibre than your average Empire or Dwarf battery, which gives them slightly less firepower and a smaller range than other artillery. The Galloper’s actually work better at closer range, but their crew can simply hop onto the cannon/horses and reposition at a moment’s notice. they can fire behind themselves whilst moving and unlike other artillery the enemy has no chance of capturing it if you are defeated.

    Bronzino and his Galloper Guns served Borgio well and after serving under him they were employed on a Dwarven Pirate treasure hunt in Lustria and after that they showed up in Araby to fight in a war against the undead, wherever they were, you can bet their employers were getting the best bang for their bucks.


    Leopold’s Leopard Company
    The cave where the Twins Lucan and Lucinna were raised by a mighty leopard, sits on top of the Acropolis around which the city of Lucinni was build. When the twins set out to build their great city, their adopted mother leopard disappeared back into her cave and it is assumed that is where she lives to this day. Around the cave, the people of Luccini build a great temple to honour Lucan, Lucinna and the Leopard and it is this most holy of sites that the Leopard Company has always guarded.

    The Leopard company were assigned to guard the temple with the same zeal and ferocity as the Leopard herself, so the guards took to wearing leopard skin as their symbol of devotion. The ruling families of the City were always fighting for the throne, each claiming to be descended from one of the twins. This infighting was ended when Lorenzo Lupo came out as being descended from both founders and seized power for his house…unfortunately for the Temple and its priests, they supported another claim to the throne, for one of their devoted guards “Leopold di Lucci” just so happened to be the captain of the Leopard Company guard.

    Lorenzo and his followers marched on the sacred temple to finalize their victory and crush their only remaining opposition, but the Leopard Company were the best fighters in the city and under Leopold’s command, they held out for days, taking almost no casualties. Out of desperation, the priests of the temple consulted their great oracle to see who was favoured; the response was cryptic indeed, but it seemed to favour Lorenzo, so the priests cast the leopard company from their service and openly denounced them. The Company refused to accept the verdict and give themselves up so Lorenzo offered them a deal: He would allow them to walk out free men if they promised to never return and relinquish their claim to the throne.

    Leopold and the Leopard Company reluctantly agreed to these terms, but so angry were they at the Priesthoods betrayal that they stole the pay they were owed from the temple as they left. This act would come back to haunt them, as they were plagued with bad luck and treacherous masters wherever they went, they thought this may have been punishment for their plundering of the sacred temple and so, to ensure their good luck from that day forward, the Company would donate a large portion of their earnings to the Temple they once served; and sure enough from that day forward the company would see success like no other and become one of the most renowned Mercenary bands in the Old World.

    The Leopard Company are Like Oda long Yari; they have heavy armour, their leopard skin pelts, are immune to Psychology and have longer Pikes than your average Terico formation.


    Marksman of Miragliano
    The Crossbow has always been a signature weapon in the lands of Tileo-Estalia, no doubt because its long-range allowed them to shoot over the high walls and deep moats of most of their city-states. One of the most famous regiments to use one of the most famous weapons in Tilea are known simply, but aptly as the Marksmen.

    The Marksmen have been going for 100 years or more, under several different captains and countless masters. The regiment always recruits its soldiers from Marigliano and return home to the city every now and again to replenish their ranks, rest their bones and renew family ties. Any recruit hoping to be accepted into the regiment must prove their worth by piercing a gold coin with their bolt at 300 paces. Once accepted the recruits hone their Marksmanship to perfection with constant (live) practice.

    The list of battles which the Marksmen have won for their masters in the Empire alone is a list without end, as well as fighting for the Emperor, the Regiment have also found work under the Tzarina of Kislev and several Dwarven Throngs. In the rarest of occasions, they have even taken part in many overseas adventures under the service of the Asur of Ulthuan.


    Ricco’s Republican Guard
    The Principality of Remas was once a Kingdom in disarray, led by a tyrannical merchant prince, plagued with famines, revolts and…well…plagues. The Republican Guard was a regiment raised by a group of rebellious merchants during this age of terrible hardship and was instrumental in the founding of the Republic of Remas under a new system of government. The battle for freedom was a bloody unpleasant affair, much of the fighting took place in the claustrophobic streets of the capital itself and several captains of the Republican Guard fell in quick succession; often being shot in the back by crossbowmen hiding on the rooftops or in the bell towers of the surrounding Palace. In the heat of battle, a common soldier known as ‘ragged’ Ricco (because of his tattered bloody clothing) assumed command. He seemed blessed by the goddess of war Myrmidia herself and survived even the bloodiest hand-to-hand combat of the war, despite always being on the frontline.

    With the Republic firmly established, the regiment was showered with praise and honours…though not much actual cash. The Guardsmen were justifiably proud of their bloodstained uniforms and battle scars, as it proved what fine fighters they were. Although they were still loyal to the Republic, their tattered uniforms represented the state of Remas itself, as the coughers had been bled dry in the civil war and they had nought to reward the Republican Guard with, so Ragged Ricco and his men travelled through Tileo-Estalia looking for coin. Their reputation from the Civil War followed them wherever they went and their ranks swelled with fresh recruits from all over Tileo-Estalia, usually it was peasants who were sick of tilling the fields for their ungrateful masters who joined the Guard and It was in this way the Republican Guard made their living: by helping the people of their lands and overthrowing any tyrants and oppressors that reminded them of the Lord of Remas they fought against.

    The Republican Guard wear ornate polished armour and red-crested helmets. Many of them still have bandages and tattered clothes tied to their armour as a badge of honour from their war for independence. The armour is the best money can buy, laced with gold and encrusted gems and they too have long Oda Yari Pikes (just like the Alcatani Fellowship and the Leopard Company).


    The Alcatani Fellowship
    Tileo-Estalia is one of the most sheltered and peaceful lands in the Old World, where Greenskins never venture and Chaos cannot reach, yet its constantly in turmoil, as each city fights for land, for money or for sport. The victims of these conflicts are rarely seen or heard, yet thousands of people are displaced and murdered every single year in these supposedly peaceful lands. Roderigo was one such victim, once a simple farmer, his farm and the beautiful forest that once surrounded it were uprooted and engulfed in flames when a rampaging army came through looking to weaken the principality and steal supplies from their land.

    This sort of thing is a common occurrence in Tileo-Estalia and Left Roderigo a broken starving man, surrounded by desolation. He, like many other peasants and farmers of the area made their way to the capital of Remas, fleeing the marching enemy, bandits and starvation. Roderigo and many of the refugees were drafted into the army to relieve their burden upon the city, perform medial tasks the rest of the army wasn’t willing to do and to be used as fodder against the enemy if necessary. They were given archaic (Spartan esc) armour, bent pikes and rusty shield, however, with a bit of elbow grease, a few strikes from a hammer and the aid of a steaming kettle, Roderigo and the rest of the levy’s equipment looked as good as new.

    The Alcatani Fellowship was born from Roderigo and his levy of peasants and when they came out alive, time and again, proving their reliability, word of their exploits soon spread. Despite their modest beginnings, they would prove to be a formidable (and cost efficient) way of dealing with many of the things plaguing the Tileo-Estalian countryside. They never forgot where they came from and so, instead of serving Merchant Princes and kings, they would most commonly help the poor, taking coin out of their own pocket to settle debts or hunting down raiders (many of them ex-mercenaries) who were harassing the peasantry of their lands.

    As Stated in the Spartan Skirmishers section, to set this unit apart from the rest of the Terico Pikemen units, they could take on a Skirmisher role with Javelins and swords. The Alcatani Fellowship themselves have light armour and no shields, however they have very long Pikes (twice the height of a man) and could have unbreakable.


    Voland’s Venators
    Voland was just one of many mercenaries who came to Tilea looking for fame and he found it when he gathered together a group of heavy cavalry known as the Venators, which means “Hunter” in low Tilean. This rowdy band of knights were the exact opposite to what you might expect from Bretonnia or the Empire, as they were only interested in two things: money! And spending it! Luckily for them, they were also Expert Cavalry, whose thunderous chare could scatter even the deepest enemy formations (something the Tileo-Estalians desperately needed but lacked until the Venators).

    Those who joined Voland were often the dispossessed and disgraced sons of rich families from the Empire and Bretonnia, whose only possessions were a magnificent suit of armour and a well-bred warhorse. Voland decreed to his men that they should abandon all ties to their old life, all family crests and titles should be shed in order to conceal their true origins. There are rumours that Voland himself is the son of an elector count, possibly the Emperor himself! Voland has never sought to confirm nor deny these tales, which grow wildly more convoluted and unlikely as the years go on.

    Voland and his men have charged across the old world making a king’s share of gold and spending every penny of it (mostly on debauched drinking sessions in which wine is consumed by the gallon). Between battles the Venators will stage jousting matches against one another and bet on the outcome. Its not uncommon for a Venator to be seriously injured or even killed in these jousts or the drunken brawls that followed. The company is always accompanied by a massive baggage train of supplies, booze, servants drinking buddies and adoring fans. The noise of their convoy can always be heard for miles around.

    This is one of the only units of decent heavy cavalry Tileo-Estalia has at their disposal (along with Disgraced Bretonnian Knights and Renegade Empire Cavalry).
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited December 2019
    Hey all, sorry this one took so long but I'm back and I've still got alot of stuff in the works.

    I hope this can be a frame of reference for what Tilea and Estalia could be going forward. There are alot of misconceptions about this race and alot of people aren't sure what potential they have so I hope this does the trick.

    Marco Colombo and Leonardo da Marigliano aren't here because they're both significant characters that existed thousands of years ago. Unlike Repanse, These characters shaped the world with their actions. The Old World we know in the games was shaped by the Discovery of Lustria and the Invention of things like the Steam Tank, so introducing them would be very strange and considering we have perfectly good characters to replace them with I don't see why we'd need them. (Plus, neither are good fighters, one is a scientist and the other is a diplomat mostly).

    Let me know what you think in the Comments as always.

    Thanks again to @Bies @Red_Dox @OdTengri and @Ol_Nessie for either helping me Directly or indirectly with their great posts :)
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 6,880
    I am getting exceptionally tired of people passing off the Birdmen as if they are a generic unit... They were a UNIQUE unit for a reason...
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian The Crystal LabyrinthRegistered Users Posts: 5,488
    Very Good. Love these style of posts. Major thumbs up for including sources as well. If you ever feel like it something similar for Cathay I would really love that. It'd be nice having all of Cathays potential in one thread.

    Dogs of War really should've been a game II DLC, but if they get a 4LL pack in game III I'll be happy.
    Borgio and Lucrezzia are easily the best lords and should absolutley be included. Plus they match CA's trend of 2 LL's being a pure Melee Lord and a Caster Lord duo.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    @CaesarSahlertz

    Yes but so was almost everything on this list. The whole point of the Dogs of War is that all their units are unique. If we stuck to that rigid idea then we couldn't convert them into Warhammer 2 as a proper coherent army.

    If we took out everything in this list that's been re-purposed from an RoR we'd only be left with Balista's, Pikemen and Dualists basically.

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    @UberReptilian

    I'd love to do something like that but I don't think Cathay actually has any real sources of any kind, other than passing references. I'd literally have to make them from scratch.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 6,880

    @CaesarSahlertz

    Yes but so was almost everything on this list. The whole point of the Dogs of War is that all their units are unique. If we stuck to that rigid idea then we couldn't convert them into Warhammer 2 as a proper coherent army.

    If we took out everything in this list that's been re-purposed from an RoR we'd only be left with Balista's, Pikemen and Dualists basically.

    There is an entire list of DoW units that are not unique... It is only the Regiments of Renown that were unique..

    That DoW list is what represents the military forces used in Tilea, since they don't have a standing army and rely on mercenaries..
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian The Crystal LabyrinthRegistered Users Posts: 5,488

    @UberReptilian

    I'd love to do something like that but I don't think Cathay actually has any real sources of any kind, other than passing references. I'd literally have to make them from scratch.

    They have a few older edition sources. I believe third that give a few units kitbashed from Bretonnia. Plus they have some detail in the Tarmurkan story and play into other races lore for example Ogre Kingdoms and Skaven which give some tidbits. But you're right it would be a massive undertaking.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited December 2019
    @CaesarSahlertz

    Yes but even most of their generic units are actually units from elsewhere. They have zero official cavalry of their own, in the army book it says their cavalry is all renegade Empire knights and disgraced bretonnians.

    Their roster would either be tiny or a mess without converting some RoR's back into normal units.

    In WH2 right now there is only 1 RoR I can think of that has no generic counterpart (the Dark Elf Dark Pegasus Riders) If we convert Dogs of War and the Southern Realms into the WH2 CA framework, my OP is how I see it panning out.

    Another Common idea is to have it be one massive melting pot of all the Tileo-Estalian units, all the Dogs of War units and some people have even said CA should just shove in everything from the Amazons, Albion and the other minor races they think wont make it in.

    Its not impossible that they would do this, but it'd be ridiculously messy, unsustainable and it would mean we'd likely get the least content possible out of the material.

    What I mean by this is that it'd become a gimmick faction with unique units all over the place and no real coherence, and if its coming in 1 Race Pack then they'd have to smash all of the characters and mechanics for the faction together and pick and choose who gets in.

    The way I've laid it out/am laying it out would maximise how much content we get out of it by allowing us to get 4 DoW characters (part 1), the possibility of 2 Border Prince lords, 4 Tileo-Estalian lords with different mechanics to the factions in part 1 and then everything im going to go onto talk about in the next two parts.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    Well, this is definitely better than some DoW fan lists I've seen, but I think it could still use some work. I don't know that their more exotic mercenaries should be exclusive to RoR, and some of these new inclusions make them a bit too similar to the Empire. Still, I like that this list takes some risks.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413

    Well, this is definitely better than some DoW fan lists I've seen, but I think it could still use some work. I don't know that their more exotic mercenaries should be exclusive to RoR, and some of these new inclusions make them a bit too similar to the Empire. Still, I like that this list takes some risks.

    What would you change?
  • AurawallAurawall Registered Users Posts: 327
    Very Cool but doesn't fit the lore. Lorewise Tiles's and Estelia's military is units of low tier generic infantry supplemented by slightly better Dogs of War Merc regimens, non-human mercenaries, and whatever unique units of special units that happen to be close enough to hire. They didn't have a military good enough to be in WH2. Not without reskinning Empire or updating Dogs of War. GW did them no favors.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    @Aurawall

    "Lorewise Tiles's and Estelia's military is units of low tier generic infantry supplemented by slightly better Dogs of War Merc regimens, non-human mercenaries, and whatever unique units of special units that happen to be close enough to hire"

    I'm not sure how my list doesn't adhere to this criteria. My list here is Generic units supplemented by RoR and other races like halflings DoW units.

    These factions would also have access to the mercenaries in part 1 and 3 as well. When you recruit a unit in Warhammer 2 you are gathering up local forces based on what buildings you've created. The units in this list are mostly local forces, even the RoR's so I don't see how it would need to change.

    The units themselves (including the generic ones) could have unique mercenary mechanics where you need to buff their leadership or they defect or whatever but I don't see how the list is incomparable with the lore or the game.

    Almost everything here is in the lore and sourced. The only ones I made up were suggestions for Leonardo contraptions and a few conversions from other places (for example, the Mercenary generals can ride Pegasus, therefore it makes sense that we could see a Pegasus unit in these factions).
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771

    Well, this is definitely better than some DoW fan lists I've seen, but I think it could still use some work. I don't know that their more exotic mercenaries should be exclusive to RoR, and some of these new inclusions make them a bit too similar to the Empire. Still, I like that this list takes some risks.

    What would you change?
    Well, and this is me personally, but I would split the entire DoW/SR roster into two broad categories: professional soldiers and mercenaries. This would then be a feature of their overall gameplay style, similar to how Wood Elves are split into Elves and Forest Spirits, with each grouping having certain things in common.

    The professional soldiers would mostly be represented by the sorts of human and mechanical units in your list. The mercenaries would be more exotic, used as a way to incorporate aspects of the Warhammer world that might never make it into the game otherwise. Blood Nagas from Khuresh, Ronin from Nippon, Amazon warriors, etc.

    And given you already had to dig through history to find additions to the roster, with stuff like Leonardo da Vinci's old inventions, I would do the same with Italian and Spanish folklore, looking for things to add flavor and uniqueness. A Warhammer version of the Santa Compana led by a Myrmidian priestess, for example, or a wizard hero modeled on the legends of the Cueva de Salamanca and Enrique de Villena. There's a lot to work with here, and I think the DoW/SR roster would need some of it, if only to help further distinguish them from the Empire.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    @Draculasaurus

    That's kind of what I've been trying to do with this series. Part 1 is the Pure mercenaries. Part 2 is the soldiers that are local to Tilea and Estalia and the ones who are deeply rooted in their culture. Part 3 will be all of the Outlaws and Pirate units like Long Drong's Slayer Pirates and Part 4 will be Marianburg and potential add ons/Lord Packs for the faction like Sven the Magnificent and Pirazzo's Lost Legion.

    My Idea is that each of these pieces could go in different directions: the Pure Mercenaries can be Rogue armies, The Pirates and Outlaws could be incorperated into potential future factions like living Pirates (Jaego roth) and/or some norscan faction. Meanwhile Tilea and Estalia are a solid faction of their own that is lacking in many areas.

    Their special units that require landmarks like the Knights of Morr could potentially be capped or something.

    I would like them to expand on the faction going into myth but I felt like I myself couldn't do that too much without making my list inaccurate, over the top and unhelpful.

    Basically I agree with you and I'm kind of trying to do what you are suggesting, its just a little hard to convey.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,397
    If I’m honest it doesn’t look like my cup of tea. Would rather bm vs we LP or GS vs HE LP
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,304
    There are a few issues I have with this.
    Firstly, I'd not lean that much (read: barely at all) into the helleno-romanic aspect of the Southern Realms. Sure, it's their past but that theme is extensively covered by the high and, even more so, Dark Elves. Here we have citizen militia (Hoplites), a focus on phalanx, gods living on the mountaintops, the continent of Atlantis (Ulthuan), unification through hegemony (both Phoenix and Witch King rule very indirectly/influence more than rule), Naval superpower, slavery, social darwinist warrior culture (THIS IS SPARTA!!!), cultic **** and the freakin' blood night (there's a spartan equivalent). Heck, Chrace is basically themed around mythical/heroic Greece, Ajax/Heracles Nation ftw.
    The second thing is the Tercio, which you described well in a historical sense. The problem is, that the term exists in Warhammer but the concept is a bit different. It's specifically called Estalian and works with crossbow and glaive instead of pike and shot (source: Monstrous Arcanum). So the term is already taken and can't hardly be applied to pikes.
    That isn't that bad, since you thirdly totally left out anything from the 6th edition army list. That thing contains (the basis of) a generic roster for the army. Amongst other things it features (just) pikemen and a unit simply called heavy cavalry which contains Estalian and Tilean knights alongside those from other lands. Indeed there are lore mentions of tilean knights, such as a turney between them and bretonnian ones over whos maidens are the fairest (whatever, that's like settling an argumentative debate with a brawl) heavily manipulated by Lucrecia Borg... Belladonna.
    Lastly, I always was under the impression that all of the Estalio-Tilean military consisted of mercenaries, with those city states not entertaining any standing forces (besides maybe a very corrupt "law keeping" towns guard) or levvies. That would kind of make sense. When your government consists of merchant princes and councils everything's business.

    I hope my feedback helps.
  • korradokortokorradokorto Registered Users Posts: 462
    dow selling point is been an army made of heroes and their retinues ,strip em of that and all you get is an empire clone with pikes and crossbowman&pavise.

    i would so much prefer dow as a full fledged mercenary faction completly indipendent from the southern realms.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited December 2019
    @LennoxPoodle

    "Firstly, I'd not lean that much (read: barely at all) into the helleno-romanic aspect of the Southern Realms. Sure, it's their past but that theme is extensively covered by the high and, even more so, Dark Elves. Here we have citizen militia (Hoplites), a focus on phalanx, gods living on the mountaintops, the continent of Atlantis (Ulthuan), unification through hegemony (both Phoenix and Witch King rule very indirectly/influence more than rule), Naval superpower, slavery, social darwinist warrior culture (THIS IS SPARTA!!!), cultic **** and the freakin' blood night (there's a spartan equivalent). Heck, Chrace is basically themed around mythical/heroic Greece, Ajax/Heracles Nation ftw."


    How would you change it? I have Kept the Greek units on the outskirts of the roster. Aside from the Spartan Skirmishers, the only proper greek units would be the Religious ones and maybe the Pegasus. I don't see this faction working that similar to the DE, HE or anything at all. Sure, they have Pikes (that work differently) and Crossbows with shields (that also work differently) but their other options are totally different imo. I'd be interested to hear your take.


    "The second thing is the Tercio, which you described well in a historical sense. The problem is, that the term exists in Warhammer but the concept is a bit different. It's specifically called Estalian and works with crossbow and glaive instead of pike and shot (source: Monstrous Arcanum). So the term is already taken and can't hardly be applied to pikes."


    I don't see how that conflicts with what I've done. As I said in my OP, I don't see CA implementing units with multiple functions like the Terico formation. I pointed out that on TT they split up the different components of a Terico into Pikes, dualists and crossbows. I think when CA makes the faction, they are going to keep the components separate just like on TT. The generic Pikes of Tilea and Estalia definitely use the formation, you can tell from the description, images and what they're based off of. whether or not they are Tilean Pikes or Estalian Glaves, Its the same thing. (where abouts is it in the Monstrous Arcanum?)

    "thirdly, you totally left out anything from the 6th edition army list. That thing contains (the basis of) a generic roster for the army. Amongst other things it features (just) pikemen and a unit simply called heavy cavalry which contains Estalian and Tilean knights alongside those from other lands. Indeed there are lore mentions of tilean knights, such as a turney between them and bretonnian ones over whos maidens are the fairest (whatever, that's like settling an argumentative debate with a brawl) heavily manipulated by Lucrecia Borg... Belladonna."


    Here is their core units:




    It does say that there are some Tileans in amongst their ranks (no Estalians), but notice how its flooded with Bretonnians, Imperials and Kislevites. In terms of their Light Cavalry it doesn't even mention Locals at all, it Says they use Arabyan and Kiselvite troops.

    Also, in the backstory for Voland's Venators it mentions that he was so successful because Heavy cavalry "something the Tileans desperately needed but lacked at the time"

    In Lieu of this information I figured that Tilea and Estalia didn't have any dedicated cavalry units (which they don't) and that Cavalry was something they'd have to desperately rely on mercenaries like Voland for (which they do).

    The only ones I left out from the Generic List was the Paymasters bodyguard and they could easily replace the generic Republican Guard in my list.

    "Lastly, I always was under the impression that all of the Estalio-Tilean military consisted of mercenaries, with those city states not entertaining any standing forces (besides maybe a very corrupt "law keeping" towns guard) or levvies. That would kind of make sense. When your government consists of merchant princes and councils everything's business."


    As I said to the other guy: When you recruit a unit in WH2 you are rallying and paying for locals to join you, based on what buildings you've constructed in that area. Considering all of the troops in part 2 are local, I don't see how you could differentiate them in any way. They could cost more and adhere to mercenary troop rules, but I think there should be a distinction between Locals who are believers in Myrmidia and mercenaries. The characters, buffs and stuff would work differently on these two kinds of troops.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    @LennoxPoodle

    I found a threat discussing your reference to Estalian Glaves, thank you for mentioning it. Unfortunately I don't have access to the book itself which is why I overlooked it (and here I thought I was being clever digging up the Historical background when its literally mentioned that they use Terico :P)

    Considering this, I think Estalians should have Glave Warrior infantry and Tileans should have your basic Pikemen. I think both should be Terico's however and have the spearwall ability.
  • BrizthomBrizthom Registered Users Posts: 727
    No dogs. Very misleading.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,304
    @SeanJeanquoi The point about Tercios I tried to make is that the term should just be avoided when dealing with anything that's not the Estalian Tercio in Warhammer, Tileans to be more explicit. I agree that their main units are pikemen, crossbowmen and duelists (with exactly these names, 6th ed army list) in sync with the historical spanish formation, but the term isn't used.
    Also a spearwall ability, whilst great for historical games, doesn't really fit into the TW:WH spirit. Pikes don't need it BTW. If they are done like in the historical games, nothing will be worth its cost when trying to push through the pike wall. They are the best (almost unbeatable) line holders in those games (which largely comes from "the physics" and not the stats btw, any enemy has to fight through for a while before even reaching the first guy).

    The lore on the knights seems to be conflicting. I'd still stay adamant that the mention of SR knights in the heavy cav entry of the 6th ed army list beats Volands 5th ed lore on account of being more recent. It just seems that they work as mercenaries in a non (or rather post) feudal society just as as some Italian nobles (such as the famous Sforza family) did in real life.

    My criticism about the Greek stuff too was more about avoiding the theme than units/game mechanics. Sure it's a thing for Lorenzo, but that's about it. In the end it's more roman than greek (Romulus and Remus) anyway, which fits the dwarven component in proto Skavenblight. Instead of any Peltast/Velites copies (okay leopard Velites would be cool), I'd simply go for Free Company (very explicitly described as mercs), Sartosan Cutthroats (Reskinned FC, Monstrous Arcanum again) or Duelists with Pistols (6th Ed) to fill the same role and be more Renaissance/Condotierry. In fact the Sartosan Cutthroats are the perfect excuse to visually overhaul Aranessas living units (bandanas, more open linen shirts etc).

    Overall I'd have a completely different approach to the DoW, not splitting roaming mercs and Southern Realms but making them one thing (SR are the culture and factions themselves, the DoW the armies for the most part) which is a landed faction that relies 100℅ on mercenary recruitment (basically working like raise the dead for anyone who never played historical). Thus their reliance on settlements is drastically reduced, merely using them as economic assets, staging grounds and bases, not necessarily on recruitment. Similarly their objectives shouldn't rely on conquest.

    One last point about Estalia: In monstrous arcanum they use a lot of chaos worshippers, bandits and even Ulfwerners (Skin wolves). In very old publications there also were estalian bandit units (bad hombres or something similar). They seem to have a pretty big outlaw problem and it looks like they tend to recruit these guys into their armies when needed.
    There were more units mentioned in MA bit sadly I can't recall them. It was all only in the story/lore part, an account of a conflict between a tilean city state and an estalian kingdom orchestrated by a Skaven force under the leadership of an exalted Verminlord. The Tileans bribed a Warpfire Dragon to work with them BTW. If they are bribable you can hire them. So could Warpfire Dragons become a unit for the DoW (or at least she as a RoR)?
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited December 2019
    @LennoxPoodle

    "The point about Tercios I tried to make is that the term should just be avoided when dealing with anything that's not the Estalian Tercio in Warhammer, Tileans to be more explicit. I agree that their main units are pikemen, crossbowmen and duelists (with exactly these names, 6th ed army list) in sync with the historical spanish formation, but the term isn't used."


    I don't think I've seen them use the word but its blatently obvious what it is. You can look at the Images from the army book of the Leopard company, the Republican Guard, and the Alcitani fellowship. They all hold their Pikes with two hands in a Tireco formation. Furthermore Pirazzo's Lost Legion isn't a single regiment, but rather an entire Army that fights in the Terico style, not just the pikes but he beats the lizardmen by employing the pike + crossbow + swordsmen combination which is exactly the same as the Terico and hes Tilean.

    Also the Tileans and Estalians are very similar, to the point where its a running joke in their lore that people confuse the two. They have the same accents, follow the same religion, both employ DoW and In WH2 they'd be part of the same race/faction.

    "Also a spearwall ability, whilst great for historical games, doesn't really fit into the TW:WH spirit. Pikes don't need it BTW. If they are done like in the historical games, nothing will be worth its cost when trying to push through the pike wall. They are the best (almost unbeatable) line holders in those games (which largely comes from "the physics" and not the stats btw, any enemy has to fight through for a while before even reaching the first guy)."


    You can actually beat them from the front in Attila and rome if you put your infantry into lose formation. Also in this game they wouldn't have any shields or much armour because they're Tericos, so they'd be kinda like the Sisters of Slaughter, really squishy but not once they get into melee.

    Personally if anyone is going to get this ability I think it should be Bretonnia for various reasons (Their infantry will still be trash at the end of the day) but its still on the table here.

    "The lore on the knights seems to be conflicting. I'd still stay adamant that the mention of SR knights in the heavy cav entry of the 6th ed army list beats Volands 5th ed lore on account of being more recent. It just seems that they work as mercenaries in a non (or rather post) feudal society just as as some Italian nobles (such as the famous Sforza family) did in real life."


    Thats just you being stubborn. Even in the 6th edition page that I showed you It still has Tilean knights drowned out by Bretonnians, empire and everyone else, and as I said before, if you look at the Light Cavalry option, it doesn't even mention any locals at all. That shows you just how scarce these units are and they don't have any lore descriptions or models so they're basically on the same level as Zombie Beastmen or some other obscure lore creature at this point (doesn't make them invalid but it adds to my overall point that they're scarce).

    Giving them a weak or even non existent cavalry element makes them dependent on the Dogs of War which is loreful, it explains why there are so many Cav units in the Dog of War roster in general (Skink Raiders, Rhinox, Voland, etc). its the same deal with beasts/machines: Tilea and Estalia are really lacking unless they have Marigliano's Palace library and late game tech so they are forced to pay top dollar for Marianburg landships or Rhinox cav or Volands venators.

    "My criticism about the Greek stuff too was more about avoiding the theme than units/game mechanics. Sure it's a thing for Lorenzo, but that's about it. In the end it's more roman than greek (Romulus and Remus) anyway, which fits the dwarven component in proto Skavenblight."


    Rome in real life was based on Greece...Tilea and Estalia are a mixture of Spain, Italy and Ancient Greece, Myrmidia is Athena, the order of the righteous spear is based on the Macedonian Companion cavalry. The Shieldmaidens are based on Hypaspists, the Alcatani Fellowship and Lorenzo Lupo wear Spartan Armour and the most common weapon type among ancient Tileo-Estalians wasn't heavy infantry with swords and Oblong Shields, it was Spearmen with round shields and greek armour.

    The Greek Theme is fringe in Tileo-Estalia these days, as stated in Lorenzo's Lore, but its still a common part of the Myrmidian faith, which is so important to the Tileo-Estalians that "It effects every facet of their lives". The only unit ive suggested with a greek theme that arent linked to the religion is the Skirmishers and perhaps the Pegasus (even then I think its reasonable and loreful), There are 2-3 Named Orders of Myrmidia that we have little to no info on, these units could be those orders potentially.

    "Instead of any Peltast/Velites copies (okay leopard Velites would be cool), I'd simply go for Free Company (very explicitly described as mercs), Sartosan Cutthroats (Reskinned FC, Monstrous Arcanum again) or Duelists with Pistols (6th Ed) to fill the same role and be more Renaissance/Condotierry. In fact the Sartosan Cutthroats are the perfect excuse to visually overhaul Aranessas living units (bandanas, more open linen shirts etc)."


    Those units will be included in my Part 3, The Spartan Skirmishers are meant to be the legit, well trained Tileo-Estalian born and bred troops, while units like Cutthroats would be untrustworthy mercs, based on Sartosan units, Vespero's Vendetta etc.

    "Overall I'd have a completely different approach to the DoW, not splitting roaming mercs and Southern Realms but making them one thing (SR are the culture and factions themselves, the DoW the armies for the most part) which is a landed faction that relies 100℅ on mercenary recruitment (basically working like raise the dead for anyone who never played historical). Thus their reliance on settlements is drastically reduced, merely using them as economic assets, staging grounds and bases, not necessarily on recruitment. Similarly their objectives shouldn't rely on conquest."


    The reason Im Splitting them up is 1: I cant make posts that big. 2: The DoW roster is way too big, unless we split it up like this we wont get the most out of it and it'll end up being a mess. the point of this series is for me to showcase how each of these groups could stand on their own, or at the very least, come in their own themed DLC expansion to the DoW roster so that we get the most out of it.

    I saw someone say that Characters like Mengil Manhide could be Legendary characters you seek out like Wilfhart and his hunters, only with the DoW you have to pay to aquire them. I like this idea and I dont think Im the "Be all end all" on what should happen, however, its taken me months of on and off work to make this and ive been reading up about it and analysing it for that whole time. At the very least, I wanna educate people on what units and characters the Dogs of War actually has so that we can all get on the same page.

    "One last point about Estalia: In monstrous arcanum they use a lot of chaos worshippers, bandits and even Ulfwerners (Skin wolves). In very old publications there also were estalian bandit units (bad hombres or something similar). They seem to have a pretty big outlaw problem and it looks like they tend to recruit these guys into their armies when needed. There were more units mentioned in MA bit sadly I can't recall them. It was all only in the story/lore part, an account of a conflict between a tilean city state and an estalian kingdom orchestrated by a Skaven force under the leadership of an exalted Verminlord. The Tileans bribed a Warpfire Dragon to work with them BTW. If they are bribable you can hire them. So could Warpfire Dragons become a unit for the DoW (or at least she as a RoR)?"


    Like I said before, Criminals and Pirates are what Part 3 is going to be all about. I've had the list done for ages but I need to write up all the lore and make all the pictures (Which requires hunting for images).

    As of right now, my part 3 list is:

    Generic Hero:

    Bounty Hunter and Hired Assassin

    Units:

    Badlands Rangers

    Dwarf Goldseekers

    Gladiators of Manann

    Ogre Maneaters

    Nippon Assassins

    Kironshima Wokou (Nippon Pirates)

    Norscan Reavers

    Ogre Ledbelchers

    Outlaws

    Slayer Pirates

    Wreckers

    Cutthroats

    Sabotuers

    RoR:

    Vespero's Vendetta (Cutthroat and Duelist RoR)

    Long Drong's Slayer Pirates

    The Carrion Band (Bandits RoR)

    Glogfag's Maneaters

    The Red Reavers (Norscan Reaver RoR)
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    @LennoxPoodle

    by the way, I added some of the stuff you mentioned so thanks.
  • Blazindragon1737Blazindragon1737 Registered Users Posts: 21
    I'm pretty sure that the Estalians also had Scorpios as artillery pieces but I could be wrong.

    Also doesn't the Tileans have a generic Admiral lord or hero choice? I can also think of two characters you may have missed btw. The first being Will Hahn the Admiral and the second being Aeolus the Astromancer.

    Also here is a link to 2ndmapman who has done a roster layout of what to expect for Daemons of Chaos, Chaos Dwarfs, Ogre Kingdoms, Kislev and Dogs of War/Southern Realms/Rogue Armies. I also added a link to his DoW/SR/RA and Kislev roster layouts.

    Links:
    https://forums.totalwar.com/profile/discussions/2ndmap
    https://i.imgur.com/1NQKGPx.jpg
    https://i.imgur.com/IJngOZb.jpg
  • IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 4,725
    Interesting list, what about the undead regiment ? common unit or only one per faction?
    *Justice and CONFEDERATION ENABLED for the Tomb Kings and Vampire Coast! feat mummies and Apophas.
    *Exclusive DLCs for Tomb Kings, Vampire Coast, BM, CW and WE! #DLCsAreRacesToo
    *Remaster all WH1 and WH2 faction icons for WH3!
    *Ogre Kingdoms core race or death!
  • DarthEnderXDarthEnderX Registered Users Posts: 1,441
    Excellent list. Quite thorough.
    "Assassination's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it."
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