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As a ten-year-old in the GW store, I loved the High Elves because of the connection their look had to the Grecian and Homeric stories I had grown up reading. The place names, the Corinthian helms, etc. I didn't make the Dark Elf connection to Sparta until much later, but as others have pointed out, there are plenty of problems with the analogy. Looking for consistency in GW writing staff, who did everything tongue in cheek (not to mention the many hands through which the lore has passed, in a largely negative way I might add, since the departure of some of the foundational types), is fraught.
Worth mentioning that many prominent Athenians (Socrates, Xenophon, Aristotle) all thought the Spartan system superior to the Athenian one. Most had a dim view of democracy, and this was largely shared by Thucydides, who wrote the History of the Peloponnesian War (and participated in it). Sparta maintained a continuous and stable system whereas the Athenian one was rocked by conflict for power, from Draco to Solon onwards - though Pericles was represented well, as the anti-democratic democrat, whilst Cleon, the demogogue, gets served hard by ancient commentators.
It's a mishmash of Hellenic greek, Byzantine and English and the obvious Antlantean. Their military is based on the Phalanx and longbows with a smattering of elite auxilla. Province names are mostly derivatives of Hellenic states or Byzantine regions with some England thrown in. The city of Lothern (London) in the province of Eataine (Athens) Chrace (Thrace) Ellyrion (Illyria) etc
Ulthuan island is EXACTLY like the Santorini island of greece (google map it to check it). The name "ulthuan" comes from "Athenian", (Athens was the capital of Telian League). Many or Ulthuans cities/ places come from greek places. 1) Eataine (the capital)= Athinai (athens, the capital). 2) Ellyrion= either Illyria, or Hellia. The first is modern day albania, the second is southern greece. 3) cothique= Corinth. 4) chrace= Thrace 5) Nagarythe= Marathon. 6) Yvresse= epirus. And so one. These names do not only sound identical, but the places look alike too ( and their position on the map too, for example Chrace is northern, exactly like greek Thrace too. Yvresse is mountainous with few residents, just like greek Epirus. And so on) .
To be honest, i wouldn't say HE and DE are athens- sparta civil war. Its more like greeks-persians wars, or Mycenaian- trojans. Another theory is "romans vs greeks". The sure thing is that High Elves are the greeks, and the Dark elves are Historical attackers from the sea (persians/romans). But because the lore says civil war, possibly it could be the Minoan- Mycenaian fights. Mycenaians are the DE, and the so called "sea people" that was roaming the region after the great volcano eruption of 1600 BCE, and the Minoans are the HE , as the best seafarers of the time, with many colonies around.
If i had to bet my money, i would say "greeks vs persians" has the most similarities. Cuz DA have many of Persian traits (one man to rule them all but divided in satrapes, infighting, many many slaves, big ships, "magic", attacked a lot of times and every time returned home defeated, had to use ships to cross to the attacking destination, units with gold armor and so on).
I was reading a little bit of greek history and I realized that the elves are pretty much based on Greece. Sparta is clearly the dark elves (e.g slaves, slaves, and more slaves), Athens is the high elves (culturally superior, arrogant) though I could see them as the Byzantine or Atlantis. Finally, the wood elves are those creatures that follow Pan, the nature god. What do you guys think?
Greece, Atlantis and the melniboneans from Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion stories.
They have several influences. The main influence is of course Tolkien and LotR, but based on that, both HE and DE are also inspired by historic cultures.
HE - British Empire, Athen DE - Sparta
If we look at the war between Asur and Druchi, is pretty clear that GW used both the American independence war and the Peloponnensian War between Sparta and Athen as an inspiration.
I think Moorcock's influence is bigger than Tolkien. Especially when it comes to Chaos.
The asur are deeply influenced by the works of Tolkien, particularly their aesthetic, architecture and choice of armor, down to their pointy winged helmets. Even some of the names are borrowed.
I thought the pointy helmets came from Elric of Melnibone.
I would note that there's little if any Tolkein in the Dark Elves. While Tolkein had the "Dark Elf" term, it didn't mean an evil Elf - a Dark Elf was an Elf where neither they nor any of their ancestors had been to Valinor. Most of the elves of Mirkwood, for instance, were Dark Elves by Tolkein's definitions.
The actual evil Elves were Orcs, and a few individuals who went off the rails (but there were no entire cultural groups of Elves that were outright evil).
Well, the dark elves are fantasy elves, and pretty much all modern fantasy elves are from Tolkien. They are long-lived, beautiful, agile, pointy-eared, graceful and generally skilled people. They are disciplined(most of them anyway) and highly trained in battle, and especially good at using ranged weapons. They are also expert craftsmen and make good weapons, armour, and have good architecture. They also have a superiority complex towards "lesser" races like humans and dwarfs. They are skilled at handling animals(although for dark elves it is manifested in a very cruel way, unlike the high/wood ones). They are also great seafarers. Their leaders are ancient and powerful, and possess great amounts of knowledge and magical power. All of this is part of the warhammer elves, dark elves included, and it is all from Tolkien elves.
If you're going to go through several layers, you'll end up at the Finnish and Scandinavian mythology that Tolkein started from.
Regular elves do come pretty much straight out of Tolkein (with whichever twist the world-builder in question chooses to apply) but the concept of "dark elves" in current fantasy is not something that came out of Tolkein directly. It's a later invention, probably growing out of the idea of applying the Seelie/Unseelie or the liosalfar/svartalfar division to Tolkein elves, but without the subtlety of those divisions in actual mythology.
Once you get to the likes of druchii or drow, you're generally not looking at Tolkein except as a caricatured (both the Games Workshop and WOTC have admitted that neither would realistically retain their societies for long given how backstabby they are) inversion of the more directly Tolkein-inspired elves in the setting.
The druchii and Drow are based on melniboneans i think.
If i had to bet my money, i would say "greeks vs persians" has the most similarities. Cuz DA have many of Persian traits (one man to rule them all but divided in satrapes, infighting, many many slaves, big ships, "magic", attacked a lot of times and every time returned home defeated, had to use ships to cross to the attacking destination, units with gold armor and so on).
Not to sure about that, it is a civil war after all. Also there are significant helenic and specifically spartan elements in the portrayal. Their entire economy depends on slaves for onstance, in a hyperbolic version of the spartan Helot based system. The blood night to feels like a play on the Krypteia. Many of their monsters are greek in origin too (but so are many others in Warhammer): Hydra, Kharybdis, Medusae and Harpies (Manticore is persian though). The biggest parralel is their emphasis on martial culture and the fact that every citizen is more less valued on their ability as a warrior, together with everyone (meaning every dark elf, not slave) actually being one. I maintain my notion that both have significant hellenic influences with one side portraying the negative and the other the positive (to us) aspects. One contrast to Sparta for instance is the Druchii's extremely hierarchical system, which pretty much runs against Sparta's extremely egalitarian (for citizens!!!) culture. Similarly one side portraying Athens and the other Sparta seems to be to simple. Again it seems to be more about aspects than specific poleis.
To begin we have to emphasize that every elf begins by drinking from Norse mythology (dwarfs too), in Norse mythology there are both elves of light and elves of darkness who live in different worlds (one full of life and another desolate ). Note that in Norse mythology neither the elves of light nor those of darkness were bad.
Wood elves meanwhile I have no idea where they come from but tree hugging elves are common in literature and I suppose that at some point the myth of the elf was merged with the myth of forest spirits and that's where they were born.
Aesthetically they are pure tolkien (wood elves a little less)
Historically all elves drink from England, the Wood are Celts, the High are the British Empire and the Dark are the United States. Wood live in peace in balance with nature, High are manipulative bastards who think they own the world and Dark are the bad guys for not tolerating the corruption of the High and then end up being almost worse.
Culturally like all races they drink from many different cultures.
The ANSWER: I never comment but i have decided to log in to clarify some things for you followers of Aenarion. All the elves in modern fantasy are based of Tolkien, while Tolkien took the inspiration from the European myths and legends where elves were always present ( tho never described as such tall and strong beings ). Dark Elves idea comes from Norse mythology, while having many other things fused into them. No direct relation to Laconia ( Sparta ) as slavary and militarism can be referred to Many factions. High Elves are inspired by Atlantis and also Athens ( in my eyes the strong references are the major key factors which in this case are: Diplomacy in the first place, strong presence of the blue color in the faction, strong naval fleet. Dark Elves are Dark Elves inspired from Norse mythology. Just like the Dark Elves from MARVEL. They even have a Faction leader with the same exact name which is Malekith. Wood Elves are closer to the elves from Myths and legends of England, and Celtic mythology. They have that runic tattoos and the bond with the nature. Obviously we can fuse in many things but its pretty evident. Just like Norscans are Obviously based off the Vikings. Ancient Greece exists in Warhammer partyl through different factions, the beastmen units, High Elves, different heroes etc. Hope this clears some things for you people have a nice Christmas weekends
The Dark Elves are Moorcock's Melniboneans. The Wood Elves are British Isles "Fair Folk" with a dash of New Age faux-Celtic gubbins. The High Elves are Tolkien Elves with a dash of the British Empire during it's decline.
The AoS Lumineth are a lot more Greek city-state than Fantasy's High Elves.
Greece is definitely something that had influence but when it comes to the Dark Elves in particular they are a grab bag of themes. Trying to cite just one thing that is specifically them is not really an accurate pointer as the influences are myriad. More so than even the HE.
I thought that is what Southern Realms were... Italian/Spain/Greek city states and their history of mercenaries and civil wars.
I don't get an ancient greek or roman feeling from either Elf faction though... they are unique. No human civilisation was ever that beautiful or advanced... China and the Middle East under their "Islamic golden age" came close... but no one ever truly made it to be even similarly close to what the Elves are like.
"I am the punishment of Tengger, if you had not sinned, he would not have sent me against you." - Chinghis Haan Temujin
33% Ancient Greek Myths, 33% Atlantis, 33% British Empire
or alternatively...
100% Tolkien.
I saw video from Cody Bonds, where he claims that High Elves are inspired by British Empire, Orcs by english footbal hooligans, dwarfs by scotland, Dark Elves by USA (!)...
I must claim, that I like Cody's videos, he is one of few "Youtubers" that I respect... But he is wrong here
High Elves, Orcs, Dwarfs are come from Tolkien's works, but Warhammer is doing in own way, same with Dark Elves, they are inspired by devil warlocks from older fantasy works (Morrock? World of Conan Barbarian? , I am not sure)
Eric of Melniboné was one of the main influences on the early writers for Warhammer, and the Melinobeans are functionally what would've happened to the Elves if Malekith won the Sundering: imperialistic slavers with the greatest navy and close relationship with dragons, famous for their refinement and cruelty in equal measure.
That said, there are clear Mediterranean influences on the High Elves, at least aesthetically. Ellyrion Reavers resemble Scythians in Greek art, the White Lions are the Varangian Guard, Silverhelms and Dragon Princes are Cataphracts, the wave motif you see on some units is a real one the Ancient Greeks used, and the Maiden Guard used to resemble hoplites with the molded armor and crested helmets.
33% Ancient Greek Myths, 33% Atlantis, 33% British Empire
or alternatively...
100% Tolkien.
I saw video from Cody Bonds, where he claims that High Elves are inspired by British Empire, Orcs by english footbal hooligans, dwarfs by scotland, Dark Elves by USA (!)...
I must claim, that I like Cody's videos, he is one of few "Youtubers" that I respect... But he is wrong here
High Elves, Orcs, Dwarfs are come from Tolkien's works, but Warhammer is doing in own way, same with Dark Elves, they are inspired by devil warlocks from older fantasy works (Morrock? World of Conan Barbarian? , I am not sure)
Aesthetically, High and Dark Elves take inspiration from ancient Greek and East Asian armours, with Dark Elves being slightly more fantasical than the High Elves.
High Elf helms clearly take cues from Greek Corinthian helms, while the body armour take cues from Chinese styles armour with long scale skirting mixed with European plate. The curved pointy upturned shoulders is something very SE Asian. Cultural artitechture also reflect this mixture of East and West with Asiatic roof shapes, but with Greek motifs.
Dark Elves is much the same, but even more Eastern inspiration. Dark Elf Helms use crests reminiscence in the style to those seen not in Western Armours, but are more common in certain period Chinese and Japanese helms.
It's part of the reason I suspect why GW were for a long time were hesitant to flesh out Cathay and Nippon since they would look too similar to the Elves since Elves borrowed alot of design aesthetics from them. It was only when trying to get into the Chinese market that GW decided to take the plunge. You could even make the arguement that Elves racially looks like a stylized cross between Grey Aliens, East Asians and Europeans... Craftworld Eldar in 40K used the Yin-Yang symbol as the "Swordwind"
Phoenix Lord Asurmen
Wood Elves have also been known to use the Yin-Yang symbol, However the Wood Elves aesthetics takes after Celtic-Gallic aesthetics than their High and Dark kin.
Historic parallels others have already mentioned.
High Elves - Athens + The collapsing British Empire Dark Elves - Sparta + A tongue in cheek take on US materialism, Black Ark = Aircraft Carrier diplomacy etc Wood Elves don't really have a contemporary analogue AFAIK
1234 I declare a thumb war! 5678 I use this hand to mass-debate!
Witch elves are a the exact stereotype copy of a native brave in mid 20th culture.
In other words, you've never seen an American Indian in full traditional regalia before. I guarantee you that bathing in blood has never been a stereotype.
Aesthetically, High and Dark Elves take inspiration from ancient Greek and East Asian armours, with Dark Elves being slightly more fantasical than the High Elves.
High Elf helms clearly take cues from Greek Corinthian helms, while the body armour take cues from Chinese styles armour with long scale skirting mixed with European plate. The curved pointy upturned shoulders is something very SE Asian. Cultural artitechture also reflect this mixture of East and West with Asiatic roof shapes, but with Greek motifs.
Dark Elves is much the same, but even more Eastern inspiration. Dark Elf Helms use crests reminiscence in the style to those seen not in Western Armours, but are more common in certain period Chinese and Japanese helms.
It's part of the reason I suspect why GW were for a long time were hesitant to flesh out Cathay and Nippon since they would look too similar to the Elves since Elves borrowed alot of design aesthetics from them. It was only when trying to get into the Chinese market that GW decided to take the plunge. You could even make the arguement that Elves racially looks like a stylized cross between Grey Aliens, East Asians and Europeans... Craftworld Eldar in 40K used the Yin-Yang symbol as the "Swordwind"
Phoenix Lord Asurmen
Wood Elves have also been known to use the Yin-Yang symbol, However the Wood Elves aesthetics takes after Celtic-Gallic aesthetics than their High and Dark kin.
Historic parallels others have already mentioned.
High Elves - Athens + The collapsing British Empire Dark Elves - Sparta + A tongue in cheek take on US materialism, Black Ark = Aircraft Carrier diplomacy etc Wood Elves don't really have a contemporary analogue AFAIK
You don't have to go to 40k to find the Yin-Yang, my dude. The entire island is the yang to my yin.
their monsters are yes. High Elves and Dark Elves mainly. Wood Elves use Celtic Mythos.
Request scorched body textures, and fire death effects. At least 30% of all damage in this game comes from fire sources. Request Fire for the Fire God DLC.
Comments
Worth mentioning that many prominent Athenians (Socrates, Xenophon, Aristotle) all thought the Spartan system superior to the Athenian one. Most had a dim view of democracy, and this was largely shared by Thucydides, who wrote the History of the Peloponnesian War (and participated in it). Sparta maintained a continuous and stable system whereas the Athenian one was rocked by conflict for power, from Draco to Solon onwards - though Pericles was represented well, as the anti-democratic democrat, whilst Cleon, the demogogue, gets served hard by ancient commentators.
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0 · Disagree AgreeProvince names are mostly derivatives of Hellenic states or Byzantine regions with some England thrown in. The city of Lothern (London) in the province of Eataine (Athens) Chrace (Thrace) Ellyrion (Illyria) etc
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0 · Disagree AgreeTo be honest, i wouldn't say HE and DE are athens- sparta civil war. Its more like greeks-persians wars, or Mycenaian- trojans. Another theory is "romans vs greeks". The sure thing is that High Elves are the greeks, and the Dark elves are Historical attackers from the sea (persians/romans). But because the lore says civil war, possibly it could be the Minoan- Mycenaian fights. Mycenaians are the DE, and the so called "sea people" that was roaming the region after the great volcano eruption of 1600 BCE, and the Minoans are the HE , as the best seafarers of the time, with many colonies around.
If i had to bet my money, i would say "greeks vs persians" has the most similarities. Cuz DA have many of Persian traits (one man to rule them all but divided in satrapes, infighting, many many slaves, big ships, "magic", attacked a lot of times and every time returned home defeated, had to use ships to cross to the attacking destination, units with gold armor and so on).
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1 · Disagree 1Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
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0 · Disagree AgreeSimilarly one side portraying Athens and the other Sparta seems to be to simple. Again it seems to be more about aspects than specific poleis.
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0 · Disagree AgreeWood elves meanwhile I have no idea where they come from but tree hugging elves are common in literature and I suppose that at some point the myth of the elf was merged with the myth of forest spirits and that's where they were born.
Aesthetically they are pure tolkien (wood elves a little less)
Historically all elves drink from England, the Wood are Celts, the High are the British Empire and the Dark are the United States. Wood live in peace in balance with nature, High are manipulative bastards who think they own the world and Dark are the bad guys for not tolerating the corruption of the High and then end up being almost worse.
Culturally like all races they drink from many different cultures.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeI never comment but i have decided to log in to clarify some things for you followers of Aenarion.
All the elves in modern fantasy are based of Tolkien, while Tolkien took the inspiration from the European myths and legends where elves were always present ( tho never described as such tall and strong beings ). Dark Elves idea comes from Norse mythology, while having many other things fused into them. No direct relation to Laconia ( Sparta ) as slavary and militarism can be referred to Many factions. High Elves are inspired by Atlantis and also Athens ( in my eyes the strong references are the major key factors which in this case are: Diplomacy in the first place, strong presence of the blue color in the faction, strong naval fleet. Dark Elves are Dark Elves inspired from Norse mythology. Just like the Dark Elves from MARVEL. They even have a Faction leader with the same exact name which is Malekith. Wood Elves are closer to the elves from Myths and legends of England, and Celtic mythology. They have that runic tattoos and the bond with the nature. Obviously we can fuse in many things but its pretty evident. Just like Norscans are Obviously based off the Vikings.
Ancient Greece exists in Warhammer partyl through different factions, the beastmen units, High Elves, different heroes etc. Hope this clears some things for you people have a nice Christmas weekends
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0 · Disagree AgreeThe Wood Elves are British Isles "Fair Folk" with a dash of New Age faux-Celtic gubbins.
The High Elves are Tolkien Elves with a dash of the British Empire during it's decline.
The AoS Lumineth are a lot more Greek city-state than Fantasy's High Elves.
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
2 · 1Disagree 2Agreeor alternatively...
100% Tolkien.
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1 · 1Disagree 1AgreeI don't get an ancient greek or roman feeling from either Elf faction though... they are unique. No human civilisation was ever that beautiful or advanced... China and the Middle East under their "Islamic golden age" came close... but no one ever truly made it to be even similarly close to what the Elves are like.
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeI must claim, that I like Cody's videos, he is one of few "Youtubers" that I respect... But he is wrong here
High Elves, Orcs, Dwarfs are come from Tolkien's works, but Warhammer is doing in own way, same with Dark Elves, they are inspired by devil warlocks from older fantasy works (Morrock? World of Conan Barbarian? , I am not sure)
- Report
0 · 1Disagree AgreeThat said, there are clear Mediterranean influences on the High Elves, at least aesthetically. Ellyrion Reavers resemble Scythians in Greek art, the White Lions are the Varangian Guard, Silverhelms and Dragon Princes are Cataphracts, the wave motif you see on some units is a real one the Ancient Greeks used, and the Maiden Guard used to resemble hoplites with the molded armor and crested helmets.
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0 · Disagree AgreeThe dark elves are native Americans.
The wood elves are Forrest sprite/welsh
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2 · 1Disagree 2Agree- Report
0 · 4Disagree Agree- Report
0 · 5Disagree AgreeHigh Elf helms clearly take cues from Greek Corinthian helms, while the body armour take cues from Chinese styles armour with long scale skirting mixed with European plate. The curved pointy upturned shoulders is something very SE Asian. Cultural artitechture also reflect this mixture of East and West with Asiatic roof shapes, but with Greek motifs.
Dark Elves is much the same, but even more Eastern inspiration. Dark Elf Helms use crests reminiscence in the style to those seen not in Western Armours, but are more common in certain period Chinese and Japanese helms.
It's part of the reason I suspect why GW were for a long time were hesitant to flesh out Cathay and Nippon since they would look too similar to the Elves since Elves borrowed alot of design aesthetics from them. It was only when trying to get into the Chinese market that GW decided to take the plunge. You could even make the arguement that Elves racially looks like a stylized cross between Grey Aliens, East Asians and Europeans... Craftworld Eldar in 40K used the Yin-Yang symbol as the "Swordwind"
Phoenix Lord Asurmen
Wood Elves have also been known to use the Yin-Yang symbol, However the Wood Elves aesthetics takes after Celtic-Gallic aesthetics than their High and Dark kin.
Historic parallels others have already mentioned.
High Elves - Athens + The collapsing British Empire
Dark Elves - Sparta + A tongue in cheek take on US materialism, Black Ark = Aircraft Carrier diplomacy etc
Wood Elves don't really have a contemporary analogue AFAIK
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1 · Disagree 1Agree- Report
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0 · Disagree Agree