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Rare Single Entity Cap is DESTROYING Lizardmen competitive play...

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  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,176Registered Users
    edited December 2019
    Green0 said:

    Cukie251 said:

    I think teclis should count towards the cavalry cap, seeing as he is clearly mounted on a horse and offers good support options.

    Yeah no. It makes absolutely 0 sense for a slann to be counted as a large monster. They have no combat capabilities, no mobility, and literally none of the qualities any of the other monsters in the lizard roster have.

    again, the reason why Slanns are capped and part of the Rare Single Entities is because they are

    a) rare in the lore.

    b) on top of generic Archmages who have Arcane Conduit, they come with a Ward save, extra missile resist, Greater Arcane Conduit and good items and increased HP.
    They also are slow, have no melee capability or any capability outside their spells and abilities, and are a giant target. They’re not even really viable on an open map against any faction with long range ap.

    Id take an archmage over a slann in many matchups.
  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 161Registered Users
    Why the hell people from the ruling parties(LZM,DE,rats and empire) cries out for more buffs??
    Shouldnt it be so that the opposition should make demands and ruling party just sit quietly wishing for no future nerfs??
  • Modern_ErasmusModern_Erasmus Posts: 177Registered Users
    Just gonna chime in that some of the statements made about Lizardmen "dominating" tournaments are inaccurate. During the Hunter and the Beast patch Lizards did narrowly have the highest pick rate among factions, but their win rate was actually below average. For a host of reasons this data isn't necessarily emblematic of the objective strength or weakness of a faction - but it is literally a snapshot of what happened in tournaments over the past few months and does not depict a "dominant" faction.

    On the topic of the thread, Slann should not count as Single Entity monsters because they are caster lords that do not cause terror and cannot cycle charge. Those qualities are why SEM as a concept exist, and the argument that RSE isn't just CA's name for SEM holds no water when they match up 1:1 with the tourney lists with slann as the sole exception. The only reason I can think of that slann are under this cap is because they're counted as a superweapon but that isn't because they are abnormally strong it's just to stop players from bringing a slann + kroak since that allows for some synergies people find noncompetitive (itza+net, double gac, double shield for blobbing). Just have a cap of max one slann, but don't lump them in with actual monsters.

    Bastiladons and the rest are perfectly fine counting under the three SEM/RSE limit because it prevents mass terror bombing strategies.
  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 161Registered Users
    people pick the top factions because they are safe pick, LZM are safe pick
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 474Registered Users
    The monster cap is great and lizardmen are still strong, but I agree Slanns should not count towards the monster cap. Caps are to restrict spamming units that become OP at a certain number (critical mass phenomenon). Slanns are already capped to 1, so there's no need to prevent spam.

    Ironically, most opponents of the 'free the Slann' movement are themselves ardent users of the lore of life. Complaining about the life slann without requesting massive nerfs to Alarielle is as biased as it gets. A life slann is quite literally a sitting duck that can only heal ground-based monsters. Alarielle heals flying monsters, while herself being one and stacking resistances on top of them. The life slann does not have a high pick rate in either tournament or QB, which is why its excessive cost was done away with this patch.

    That said, I personally don't care too much either way. I don't think I have any builds that had more than 3 SEs, except for having to remove a solar engine or bastiladon once or twice.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,519Registered Users

    The monster cap is great and lizardmen are still strong, but I agree Slanns should not count towards the monster cap. Caps are to restrict spamming units that become OP at a certain number (critical mass phenomenon). Slanns are already capped to 1, so there's no need to prevent spam.

    Ironically, most opponents of the 'free the Slann' movement are themselves ardent users of the lore of life. Complaining about the life slann without requesting massive nerfs to Alarielle is as biased as it gets. A life slann is quite literally a sitting duck that can only heal ground-based monsters. Alarielle heals flying monsters, while herself being one and stacking resistances on top of them. The life slann does not have a high pick rate in either tournament or QB, which is why its excessive cost was done away with this patch.

    That said, I personally don't care too much either way. I don't think I have any builds that had more than 3 SEs, except for having to remove a solar engine or bastiladon once or twice.

    if we uncap Slanns so that "Lizardmen can abuse lore of Life like the rest of us", can Dragons have a modest 30 BvL?

    And Silver Helms full AP swap?

    To make it fair since you fail to see the difference obviously.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 940Registered Users
    Ah, so teclis should count towards the cavalry cap, and alarielle should count towards the dragon cap.

    What? What do you mean these units have nothing in common? Allarielle can fly! Teclis rides a horse!

    If a slow and immobile caster with 0 combat stats is considered on the same level as a carnosaur despite sharing absolutely none of its qualities, than allarielle is basically a dragon, since she flies. Also, by that logic teclis is basically a dragon prince - dude rides a horse.

    Oh wait, that makes no sense. Just like it makes no sense lumping a 0 mobility, 0 combat statted unit that's super vulnerable to just about everything in with a dread saurian.

    "But then lizards can use lore of life!" - too bad. If you didn't want lizards to have lore of life than it should have never been given to them. But arbitrarily restricting their magic capability for that reason isn't fair to the faction and is inconsistent with the balance of all other factions in this game.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,519Registered Users
    edited December 2019
    by your logic, Carnosaurs and Bastiladons shouldn’t count toward the same cap, and yet CA decided they do.

    Incidentally, for thr n-th time, SLANNS ARE NOT MONSTERS but Rare Single Entities. The reason why the fill that slot in addition to a character slot is because of increased HP, missile resist, Greater Arcane Conduit, good items, free bound spell and more.

    Teclis already fills the category “characters”, it makes so little sense to make him count toward cavalry (which is not even a capped category btw) as it does making Ikit on a Flayer count as chariot.

    Not to mention that aside from LZ having a stronger roster for lore of Life (Temple Guards, Carnosaurs, high-end Stegadons and Saurians being the worst offenders) than say Empire or HE or WE, if you remove Rare SE from Slann you'd bring back the old pickle of Kroak + Slann that while having suffered heavy nerfs still retains the ability to nuke anything with 45 models or more in 1 shot combo with 0 counterplay.

    I’m all up for not making Nakai & similar count toward the monster cap (assuming Throgg doesn’t either which I’d have to check), but Slann absolutely against.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 940Registered Users
    edited December 2019
    Green0 said:

    by your logic, Carnosaurs and Bastiladons shouldn’t count toward the same cap, and yet CA decided they do.

    Incidentally, for thr n-th time, SLANNS ARE NOT MONSTERS but Rare Single Entities. The reason why the fill that slot in addition to a character slot is because of increased HP, missile resist, Greater Arcane Conduit, good items, free bound spell and more.

    Teclis already fills the category “characters”, it makes so little sense to make him count toward cavalry (which is not even a capped category btw) as it does making Ikit on a Flayer count as chariot.

    Not to mention that aside from LZ having a stronger roster for lore of Life (Temple Guards, Carnosaurs, high-end Stegadons and Saurians being the worst offenders) than say Empire or HE or WE, if you remove Rare SE from Slann you'd bring back the old pickle of Kroak + Slann that while having suffered heavy nerfs still retains the ability to nuke anything with 45 models or more in 1 shot combo with 0 counterplay.

    I’m all up for not making Nakai & similar count toward the monster cap (assuming Throgg doesn’t either which I’d have to check), but Slann absolutely against.

    You can't actually seriously be arguing that those extra things are bonuses right? How dense can you be. You know why slann have missile resist and HP? Because they are the size of a truck with 0 mobility. In 99% of cases it would be better to just be horse sized with the corresponding mobility boost.

    "They have good items" - see every competitive LL in the game. They don't count towards an additional cap.

    Honestly, saying LZM have a stronger life for lore is a stretch. Things like dragons, Phoenix guard and steamtanks are as abusive as anything the lizards can field with life.

    If double slann are a problem, cap slann alone at 1. Problem solved.

    Why does having a slann restrict you from bringing other rare single entities? Because magic synergizes with them? Magic synergizes with literally any unit. Again, going back to alarielle - she has more synergy with bit SE's than a life slann does due to her AOE regrowth. Do we make her lower the dragon cap? No - because she shares literally no characteristics with them.

    Its just an arbitrary restriction on a singular faction.

    Also carnosaurs and basitladons are also decent mobility monsters capable of cycle charging and causing terror. But again, keep dismissing the obvious.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,519Registered Users
    edited December 2019
    Cukie251 said:

    Green0 said:

    by your logic, Carnosaurs and Bastiladons shouldn’t count toward the same cap, and yet CA decided they do.

    Incidentally, for thr n-th time, SLANNS ARE NOT MONSTERS but Rare Single Entities. The reason why the fill that slot in addition to a character slot is because of increased HP, missile resist, Greater Arcane Conduit, good items, free bound spell and more.

    Teclis already fills the category “characters”, it makes so little sense to make him count toward cavalry (which is not even a capped category btw) as it does making Ikit on a Flayer count as chariot.

    Not to mention that aside from LZ having a stronger roster for lore of Life (Temple Guards, Carnosaurs, high-end Stegadons and Saurians being the worst offenders) than say Empire or HE or WE, if you remove Rare SE from Slann you'd bring back the old pickle of Kroak + Slann that while having suffered heavy nerfs still retains the ability to nuke anything with 45 models or more in 1 shot combo with 0 counterplay.

    I’m all up for not making Nakai & similar count toward the monster cap (assuming Throgg doesn’t either which I’d have to check), but Slann absolutely against.

    You can't actually seriously be arguing that those extra things are bonuses right? How dense can you be. You know why slann have missile resist and HP? Because they are the size of a truck with 0 mobility. In 99% of cases it would be better to just be horse sized with the corresponding mobility boost.

    "They have good items" - see every competitive LL in the game. They don't count towards an additional cap.

    Honestly, saying LZM have a stronger life for lore is a stretch. Things like dragons, Phoenix guard and steamtanks are as abusive as anything the lizards can field with life.

    If double slann are a problem, cap slann alone at 1. Problem solved.

    Why does having a slann restrict you from bringing other rare single entities? Because magic synergizes with them? Magic synergizes with literally any unit. Again, going back to alarielle - she has more synergy with bit SE's than a life slann does due to her AOE regrowth. Do we make her lower the dragon cap? No - because she shares literally no characteristics with them.

    Its just an arbitrary restriction on a singular faction.

    Also carnosaurs and basitladons are also decent mobility monsters capable of cycle charging and causing terror. But again, keep dismissing the obvious.
    I don't know why you're insisting so hard on this one, means you really really wanna field Slann + 3 Carnosaurs which is clearly the intent. That list would be abusive. I'm glad it's limited. End of story. It also matters 0 how other rosters do, I'm sorry someone brought this into the equation like usual, what matters is that Lizardmen do OK still with this cap. Giving Lizardmen lore of Life was a mistake to begin with anyway.

    If you wanna compare to other rosters, I can also list all the things a faction such as Empire DOESN'T have, such as a good airforce or any armored monsters in quantity larger than 1 (lord), or monstrous infantry or actually good mid tier infantry.

    Likewise HE don't have any armored units with more than 110 armor, don't have a chaff unit for 300g... the list goes on.

    The LZ roster is very very versatile and caps take that into account also.


    Also I totally disagree that Slann are vulnerable to lord sniping. By Cannons, if it's 3+, yes. Anything less, their fat HP and missile resist. makes them immune.

    Protip: don't take Slanns vs Empire, Coast, Dwarfs, vs literally any other factions you can prevent lord sniping since other factions don't have cannons.

    With decent kit they're like 1700g or so while having the advantages I mention. Fairly cheap as well.

    But really yeah forget all of this my main argument is a quality one. Strong rosters don't deserve as much help (if any at all) as weak rosters. If this was Beastmen, I could sympathize WAY more, but since it's LZ, top 3 faction, why make them yet more obnoxious, so that we need to buff BM, Bretonnia, Empire, High Elves even harder?
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 940Registered Users
    Im insisting because games need consistency in their rules sets, and that arbitrary caps on factions are just as bad as say - increasing VP airforce to 8 to accommodate their reliance on airforce. Things like that are unhealthy, and arbitrarily limiting the LZM magic capabilities (of lores other than life might I add) due to their use of SE's is not a good balancing decision. Especially when people likewise argue that "SE's arn't balanced around lore of life in HE's." Its just a joke.

    I don't even play LZM at all. But every, single, faction should have a standardized ruleset to play around (or we add in army specific funds but W.e.)

    Come on. Slann are less likely to be where they need. Slann are more vunerable to all missiles. Slann are easier to get onto with melee units and SE. Literally all of these points are undeniable. A slann as a mage is inferior to teclis or a supreme sourceress in pretty much every way.

    Frankly I'd find a slann + 3 carnosours no worse than alliarille + 2 dragons. Or a zombie dragon VC lord and a terrorgheist. At that point you have similar funds outlayed with similar hero capabilities.

    But frankly I see neither as a problem.

    Its not about lzm, its about consistency. Either rules are specific or general but they shouldn't be both. There's no reasonable justification for teclis not affecting any caps or gelt not affecting any caps but an immobile toad whos objectively a less efficient caster than either doing so.

    Your only legitimate reason is that "LZM StRoNg" - than nerf their SEs, or nerf life magic, but don't restrict them in a way that no other faction is restricted.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,519Registered Users
    edited December 2019
    so it's arguing for standardization's sake then.

    Let's give HE 300g spears, no reason for them to pay 500g for a blocker unit.

    Let's give Dwarves a Trolls unit, the roster is lacking, no reason not to standardize.

    Let's give Empire Shaggoths, why should they be limited to only flying lord and not enjoy 3 SEs like everyone else.

    Arguing something out of principle is really naive, if not downright trolling. Rules in the end will ALWAYS create some winners and losers, what we should ask ourselves is, are Lizardmen weak enough to justify buffs to them? The answer to me seems no. Like I said, had this been Beastmen or Dwarves, I could sympathize way more since these factions are not the strongest and 3 SEs in them are not as abusive as in LZ.

    In the end, yes, Slanns counting toward the Rare Single Entities cap is an arbitrary decision. Like many others in this game such as max 5 flyers for VC or max 1 Star Dragon for HE.


    And it's not a joke, LZ have stronger SEs than HE as well as a stronger roster. It makes sense CA decided to limit them this way. The day Star Dragons will have 30 BvL, I will argue in favor of Alarielle counting as a SE.

    The funny thing is that you STILL can take 3 SEs as Lizardmen, it's not like you have to pick Slanns. The ONLY reason to defend this is to abuse something like Life Slann + 2 Carnosaurs + 2 Temple Guard + a bunch of auxiliary units. Let's be honest for a moment, whoever plays Heavens/Light Slann is probably not a tryhard player and as such doesn't get very upset that Slanns are 1 RSE slot. It's really about Life Slann (which, again, was a mistake to begin with).
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 940Registered Users
    edited December 2019
    You're just throwing out false equivalencies left and right huh?

    I never said anything about changing rosters or standardization. You are, as usual, selectively interpreting what I said as what you want to read. Take a reading comprehension class at some point please.

    Here's what your way of thinking allows:
    Vamps and brets should have a higher flier cap because their roster needs the help
    Dwarfs should be able to field twice as many ranged and identical infantry units since they lack roster variety

    -These are stupid and bad rulings. These defeat the entire purpose of unit caps. But when you arbitrarily apply certain restrictions that target certain factions, that happens.

    Balance the faction through their units, don't balance a faction through arbitrary rulings targeted towards them.

    If we have a set of rules that EVERY faction has to play by (which we currently do) - than it needs to somewhat impact factions equally. It makes no sense that, for instance, every other faction can bring a lord-level mage but the lizards are banned from it.

    Or, we can add in army specific caps! Which would be a great change, but then we actually have to do it.

    "Let's be honest for a moment, whoever plays Heavens/Light Slann is probably not a tryhard player and as such doesn't get very upset that Slanns are 1 RSE slot"
    -Holy molly, this is just silly childish and elitist reasoning. Don't even think that warrants a response.

    Comment removed.
    Post edited by dge1 on
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  • ystyst Posts: 6,522Registered Users
    edited December 2019
    Green0 said:

    Let's give HE 300g spears, no reason for them to pay 500g for a blocker unit.

    Like pls dont fail harder than it already is. Blocker unit lol, $500 spear destroying a $600 melee frenzy dps unit. If u dont have any idea of the faction u actually play, it sometimes mean u shouldnt be rolling them, not all ppl r meant to play elves. All it does is keep spreading bad information and disrupting balance.



    Any spear that can do that is a serious threat to units like gors, ghouls even swordsman



    Scions of matlann DESTROYING armoured anti inf specialist WITHOUT wardshield since im spamming those nets on the lord during the test with triple mage.

    Ur right tho, true blockers even withholding anti inf specialists
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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,519Registered Users
    edited December 2019
    yst said:

    Green0 said:

    Let's give HE 300g spears, no reason for them to pay 500g for a blocker unit.

    Like pls dont fail harder than it already is. Blocker unit lol, $500 spear destroying a $600 melee frenzy dps unit. If u dont have any idea of the faction u actually play, it sometimes mean u shouldnt be rolling them, not all ppl r meant to play elves. All it does is keep spreading bad information and disrupting balance.



    Any spear that can do that is a serious threat to units like gors, ghouls even swordsman



    Scions of matlann DESTROYING armoured anti inf specialist WITHOUT wardshield since im spamming those nets on the lord during the test with triple mage.

    Ur right tho, true blockers even withholding anti inf specialists
    another yst test, likely clicked the Flagellants around the map as the spears attacked for 8 minutes to achieve this result. I, and any other reasonable person would never believe your tests, it wouldn't surprise me you let the unit you're interested in losing get charged in the rear.

    I don't think you'll find anyone defending HE spears being a good unit, even the most zealous anti-HE fanboys will either call them average or below average... also in your tests you totally ignore melee time, there's really a big difference in beating Flagellants in 2 minutes and in 5.

    But really I doubt HE spears beat Flagellants to begin with if you want later I can post some screenshots with Flags winning with 80% HP left to show u I can play ur little game.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,522Registered Users
    edited December 2019
    Actually dont need me to waste my time lol. Any1 who actually knows how their faction works can see it crystal
    Post edited by yst on
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  • ystyst Posts: 6,522Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    But really I doubt HE spears beat Flagellants to begin with if you want later I can post some screenshots with Flags winning with 80% HP left to show u I can play ur little game.

    Fail enough, time to stop.


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  • doktarrdoktarr Posts: 220Registered Users
    edited December 2019
    Cukie251 said:

    Ah, so teclis should count towards the cavalry cap, and alarielle should count towards the dragon cap.

    What? What do you mean these units have nothing in common? Allarielle can fly! Teclis rides a horse!

    I realize you were just trying to make a point, but... doesn't Allarielle actually count towards the SEM cap when she's on her eagle?
    Cukie251 said:

    Im insisting because games need consistency in their rules sets, and that arbitrary caps on factions are just as bad as say - increasing VP airforce to 8 to accommodate their reliance on airforce. Things like that are unhealthy, and arbitrarily limiting the LZM magic capabilities (of lores other than life might I add) due to their use of SE's is not a good balancing decision. Especially when people likewise argue that "SE's arn't balanced around lore of life in HE's." Its just a joke.

    I don't even play LZM at all. But every, single, faction should have a standardized ruleset to play around (or we add in army specific funds but W.e.)

    I'm interested in a longer defense of this idea, because it doesn't seem quite right to me. I agree that inconsistent caps of these sorts that vary from faction to faction are inelegant. If they are poorly thought-out and are leading to some factions being underpowered or overpowered because of the way their caps play, then it can be arbitrary.

    But neither of those things convince me that different caps for different factions are inherently bad. Maybe there's no consistent rule that gets the same balance for multiplayer. Some stuff can be balanced just by tweaking individual units or their costs, but some things are hard to balance that way.

    Let's set the Slann SEM question aside, and use the other example you gave. Imagine VC were allowed to field 8 flyers as long as at least three were bats, and that made them more competitive but not oppressive. Why would that be a bad thing? This is an honest question. I get that it would be inelegant/inconsistent, but it wouldn't be hard to understand or justify.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 940Registered Users
    edited December 2019
    doktarr said:

    Cukie251 said:

    Ah, so teclis should count towards the cavalry cap, and alarielle should count towards the dragon cap.

    What? What do you mean these units have nothing in common? Allarielle can fly! Teclis rides a horse!

    I realize you were just trying to make a point, but... doesn't Allarielle actually count towards the SEM cap when she's on her eagle?
    Cukie251 said:

    Im insisting because games need consistency in their rules sets, and that arbitrary caps on factions are just as bad as say - increasing VP airforce to 8 to accommodate their reliance on airforce. Things like that are unhealthy, and arbitrarily limiting the LZM magic capabilities (of lores other than life might I add) due to their use of SE's is not a good balancing decision. Especially when people likewise argue that "SE's arn't balanced around lore of life in HE's." Its just a joke.

    I don't even play LZM at all. But every, single, faction should have a standardized ruleset to play around (or we add in army specific funds but W.e.)

    I'm interested in a longer defense of this idea, because it doesn't seem quite right to me. I agree that inconsistent caps of these sorts that vary from faction to faction are inelegant. If they are poorly thought-out and are leading to some factions being underpowered or overpowered because of the way their caps play, then it can be arbitrary.

    But neither of those things convince me that different caps for different factions are inherently bad. Maybe there's no consistent rule that gets the same balance for multiplayer. Some stuff can be balanced just by tweaking individual units or their costs, but some things are hard to balance that way.

    Let's set the Slann SEM question aside, and use the other example you gave. Imagine VC were allowed to field 8 flyers as long as at least three were bats, and that made them more competitive but not oppressive. Why would that be a bad thing? This is an honest question. I get that it would be inelegant/inconsistent, but it wouldn't be hard to understand or justify.
    So here's my issue with this. Its all or nothing.

    In my ideal world every army would get core army rules that determine the types of units and funds they deploy, much like the TT. But thats not present in the game and I doubt it ever will be.

    So then maybe you give every army individual caps. They've kindof done that with the super egregious outliers, like dragons, tanks, etc. I don't have a problem with this because obviously some factions have a propensity to bring extreme builds and although I would prefer to have individual caps for each faction (more inf for dwarfs, more fliers for vc, more monsters for liz, etc) - players seem to typically be against that. At the very least it seems like a large undertaking.

    My issue with the LZM problem specifically is that they take a general cap that minimally affects most factions, and is applied to a unit that shares no characteristics of most other rare SEs. No other faction is unable to bring a mage lord (or at least a decent one) due to their monster choices. Wheras for lizards it does - especially since unlike other factions you can't manipulate your mount to adjust the caps they affect.

    Ultimately, unless they want to do a big rework on caps, which I would love, you gotta make the best with what you have. While I do think vamps should have more fliers or dwarfs should have more rangers or lizards more monsters, its not realistic at this time.

    So while I agree that general caps are suboptimal, i think if warhammer has them they should be consistent. I'm fine with a rare single entity cap, im not fine with a slann (with no specific advantage over any other high end caster) being considered a rare SE and artificially restricting viable builds.

    Hope that makes sense? Bit rambly

    Also on the allairelle bit, you gotta remember (also i was pointing to the HE dragon cap specifically) that other factions can manipulate mount choices to have their lords fall into different categories, lizards cant and i think thats really important.
  • Modern_ErasmusModern_Erasmus Posts: 177Registered Users
    Agreed wholly with Cukie, and would like to once again emphasize that the entire point of the 3 Single entity monster limit in competitive play is to limit units that cause terror and can cycle charge.

    I reject the argument that "Rare single entity" is fundamentally different from single entity monsters when this is obviously just CA's official name for the type, as they are exactly the same list with the exception of Slann and Monstrous infantry lords like Throgg and Nakai. Slann are thus doubly an outlier since they are non-combatants. The suggestion that these are two fundamentally different categories with different rules is simply disingenuous: CA just took the sem list, added monstrous infantry lords because it seemed to them that they should count, and added Slann because they're superweapons and figured that must mean they're strong and need limiting (when in actuality they're only superweapons to prevent Kroak + a second Slann since that combo has some synergies considered noncompetitive).

    Slann counting as RSEs while comparable elite caster lords like Teclis, Wurzagg, supreme sorceresses, etc (several of whom are outright better than Slanns in most matchups) do not is simply wrong.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,522Registered Users
    Yea cukie sums it up perfectly.

    These cap royally elfed up liz hard as a monster faction that relies extremely heavily on monsters. Its as stupid as capping missile unit to 5 for wood elf. Which have absolutely no stupid affect on vamps whatsoever.

    A flyer cap likewise would screw vamps hard but completely irrelevant to factions like beastman, nosca or orks.

    Factions like elves benefited extreme from such changes. It has near 0 impact on dark elves on either the monster or flyer cap. Welf can safely run multiple hawks rider barely even limited by flyer nor missile cap. Liz can do the same with terradons being severely handicap by cap extremeism. It takes 360, flyer and a frikking missile slot for a $600 unit. Thats about the most elf up unit in game lol

    The entire basti selection of liz goes straight to dumpster. Has any1 even use or seen trash of sotek or garbage of gods since release?
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  • doktarrdoktarr Posts: 220Registered Users
    yst said:

    Has any1 even use or seen trash of sotek or garbage of gods since release?

    Felkon just won the ECL league playing Ark of Sotek in the finals.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,522Registered Users
    doktarr said:


    Felkon just won the ECL league playing Ark of Sotek in the finals.

    That must be cute to watch, did anything or simply handicapping himself couple $100s for the fun of it.
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  • doktarrdoktarr Posts: 220Registered Users
    edited December 2019
    yst said:

    doktarr said:


    Felkon just won the ECL league playing Ark of Sotek in the finals.

    That must be cute to watch, did anything or simply handicapping himself couple $100s for the fun of it.
    You can watch for yourself (AoS involvement starts around here) but it played a pretty significant role.

    Of course this was tournament rules so Felkon was able to use AoS, Slann, Scar-Vet, and Feral Carno.
  • BovineKingBovineKing Posts: 172Registered Users
    So a actually you only need to field empire RoR cannon to kill a slann I’ve done this on multiple occasions yeah it’s an exception but doesn’t change the fact that I need one unit to effectively lord snipe with no counter other than picking a non slann
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Posts: 2,631Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Cukie251 said:

    Green0 said:



    If double slann are a problem, cap slann alone at 1. Problem solved.

    Why does having a slann restrict you from bringing other rare single entities? Because magic synergizes with them? Magic synergizes with literally any unit. Again, going back to alarielle - she has more synergy with bit SE's than a life slann does due to her AOE regrowth. Do we make her lower the dragon cap? No - because she shares literally no characteristics with them.

    Its just an arbitrary restriction on a singular faction.

    Also carnosaurs and basitladons are also decent mobility monsters capable of cycle charging and causing terror. But again, keep dismissing the obvious.



    I don't know why you're insisting so hard on this one, means you really really wanna field Slann + 3 Carnosaurs which is clearly the intent.
    No. That is not clearly the intent. That is just a thing you literally made up.

    He is factually correct. The slann is a wizard that shares absolutely 0 similarities with monsters. High armor? Armor piercing damage? Terror? Mobility? No.

    The slann is just a foot wizard, who happens to sit instead of walk. It has more HP but also a bigger hitbox. Different races have different wizards. Do fimir wizards for Norsca count as rare single entities because they're bigger than man-sized wizards? Do Skaven Scrier wizards count as single entities because they have high armor?

    You say Slann are rare? ALL wizards are rare! Slann are perhaps more rare than any other factions wizards, but they are less rare than any special character, whom there is only 1 of in the entire world.

    Your entire argument is complete nonsense.

    I understand you think that a slann + 3 carnosaurs would be a powerful combination. This is irrelevant. All armies are capable of making potent combinations of wizards + 3 things that wizards support well. There is no reason that lizardmen have to be handicapped by only getting a wizard + 2 things, especially because it's not even all of their wizards, as they are capable of taking skink wizards + 3 monsters. Is lore of life the problem? Balance lore of life! What does this have to do with unit caps?
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  • TexV2TexV2 Posts: 109Registered Users
    No not really, you never brought more than three before either unless you where cheesing.

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