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What was before the old ones

alecwinteralecwinter Registered Users Posts: 33
What was around before the old ones terraformed the world

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  • Steph_F_DavidSteph_F_David Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,544
    The older others.
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 2,845
    Dragon Ogres and other creatures like them.
  • LoreguyLoreguy Registered Users Posts: 222
    Some unknown and forgotten lizardman-like civilizations exist mostly around equator.
  • ArtfactialArtfactial Registered Users Posts: 259
    The Darkblade books allure to a pre-old one civilization of fish/lizard like people, on whom's ruins many Old-one and chaos sites were build. A sort of Lovecraftian idea.
    Don't think it exists outside of those books though.

    People having read the entire Sundering, does it mention in what state the Druchii found Nagarroth?
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 2,808
    Dragons and dragon ogres lived back then, and they waged war on each other. The dragons were winning, and it seems that they were the the rulers of that age.

    There did however exist other creatures and civilizations, but little is known about them. Malekith's Circlet of Iron was made by a pre-old ones civilization. He finds it in an ancient ruin in the chaos wastes. The city itself is truly bizarre, and they seemed to possess some deep knowledge of magic that has since been lost.
  • ArtfactialArtfactial Registered Users Posts: 259
    Oh yeah! I had forgotten about that, that quest for the Circlet of Iron was pretty well written from what I remember.:)
    Maybe some more connection between that and the cities/ruines mentioned in the Darkblade novels than I thought.
  • Daedalusx007Daedalusx007 Registered Users Posts: 72
    If I remember correctly there were some proto Lizardman type civilizations, Dragon Orges, and Dragons, and various assorted giant monsters.

    Most lore has the Old Ones modifying populations into the races we know so I assume they were there as well, in caves, hiding from the giant monsters.
    The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong but those are the ways to bet.

    I fully support Dogs of War and Kislev for DLC.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 8,145

    If I remember correctly there were some proto Lizardman type civilizations, Dragon Orges, and Dragons, and various assorted giant monsters.

    Most lore has the Old Ones modifying populations into the races we know so I assume they were there as well, in caves, hiding from the giant monsters.

    I recall hearing that Drachenfels was originally from pre-Old One original human(oid) stock. Not sure of the provenance of that, though.

    There's also the Sleeper, which was the survivor of an insectoid hive mind that I think the Old Ones had eradicated?
  • Daedalusx007Daedalusx007 Registered Users Posts: 72
    Draxynnic said:

    If I remember correctly there were some proto Lizardman type civilizations, Dragon Orges, and Dragons, and various assorted giant monsters.

    Most lore has the Old Ones modifying populations into the races we know so I assume they were there as well, in caves, hiding from the giant monsters.

    I recall hearing that Drachenfels was originally from pre-Old One original human(oid) stock. Not sure of the provenance of that, though.

    There's also the Sleeper, which was the survivor of an insectoid hive mind that I think the Old Ones had eradicated?
    Darchenfels (that name gave autocorrect a fit) probably was. If I remember from reading The Sundering and the Circlet of Iron bit I think there was something about humanish ruins.
    The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong but those are the ways to bet.

    I fully support Dogs of War and Kislev for DLC.
  • PLHenryPLHenry Registered Users Posts: 1,398
    When the Old Ones arrived, they set about ordering the world in their image. They bred the Slann to help them in their task, and they bred the Saurus to act as their sword. The Saurus went to war on a global scale tearing down civilisations, wiping out entire species to satisfy the Old Ones.

    Though it isn't 100% confirmed, it's believed that the Fimir and Zoats were once more numerous and were on the receiving end of this cull. Dragon Ogres also existed on the world before the Old Ones arrived. It's possible that part of the reason why the Fimir and Dragon Ogres took up with Chaos was a direct result of the Old One culls. With extinction on the horizon, why not side with the entities that were wiping out your enemies?

    In addition, we know of The Sleeper (from the Gotrek & Felix books), an insectoid that once ruled a vast empire that had many slaves. Though the rest of its people died out (presumably), the Sleeper aligned itself with Chaos too.
  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Registered Users Posts: 2,652
    Don't forget the Treemen. They existed way before the Old Ones arrived, and the forest they inhabited was not just Athel Loren, but was spread across most of the Old World and beyond.

    The Warhammer world was a lot colder back before the Old Ones arrived as well, with large swatches of frozen land, since the planet was further from its sun, and positioned differently. The Great Ocean was smaller, or possibly not there, as well.
  • SteppelordSteppelord Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,270
    Well, there's no dragons in Lustria cuz of **** like carnosaurs and dread saurians. So dino's were already there.
    Yeah so basically all the big creatures and animals and a lot more nature. The old ones just added sentient humanoid races instead.
  • PLHenryPLHenry Registered Users Posts: 1,398

    Don't forget the Treemen. They existed way before the Old Ones arrived, and the forest they inhabited was not just Athel Loren, but was spread across most of the Old World and beyond.

    The Warhammer world was a lot colder back before the Old Ones arrived as well, with large swatches of frozen land, since the planet was further from its sun, and positioned differently. The Great Ocean was smaller, or possibly not there, as well.

    That's a good point, I always forget the Treemen.

    I assume creatures such as Triton also existed pre-Old One.
  • RichardNRoundRichardNRound Registered Users Posts: 907
    the planet was further from the sun, with a jungle like equator and frozen poles, with some now extinct civilizations wiped out by the lizardmen. Nagaroth has ancient ruins and and underground tunnel system from one such civilisation. The pre-engineered ancestors of the lizardmen also exsisted. Some 'native' races survived like the fimir, dragon ogres and dragons. Greenshins were brought by the oldones, but existed before.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 2,808

    Well, there's no dragons in Lustria cuz of **** like carnosaurs and dread saurians. So dino's were already there.
    Yeah so basically all the big creatures and animals and a lot more nature. The old ones just added sentient humanoid races instead.

    I believe it is said that a lot "mixed" creatures like griffons, pegasi, etc. were actually created by the coming of chaos. They were originally mutants, but have become "stable" breeds of mutants, so in the present they are just like other animals.
  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Registered Users Posts: 2,652

    Well, there's no dragons in Lustria cuz of **** like carnosaurs and dread saurians. So dino's were already there.
    Yeah so basically all the big creatures and animals and a lot more nature. The old ones just added sentient humanoid races instead.

    I believe it is said that a lot "mixed" creatures like griffons, pegasi, etc. were actually created by the coming of chaos. They were originally mutants, but have become "stable" breeds of mutants, so in the present they are just like other animals.
    I believe that's what I've read too.
  • Rochaid29Rochaid29 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,389
    steph74 said:

    The older others.

    Wrong.. it was the "young ones"
  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 1,557
    As others have already said, some of them are still alive, like the Dragon Ogres or the Fimir. I didn't know the treeman were previous to the Old Ones, but I can believe it. Also, there are entire civilizations previous to the Old Ones which are still alive, like those of the Underworld Sea or the mentioned Sleeper, which could be one of many others awaiting from the deeps.

    About the dead ones, they were many, and some of them a previous humanoid race which was destroyed and/or transformed into the humans of these days. As others have said before, Malekith once went to the Chaos Wastes and claimed the Circlet of Iron into an ancient city with ziggurat structures and humanoid skelletons far bigger and taller than humans and elves. This civilizations could come from the same place (or gods) as those of the Underworld Sea and insectoids from the deeps, and they show a certain resemblance to Cthulhian creatures and civilizations.

    It's hinted that there could be entire empires in the deeps, waiting...
    "You stumble about in darkness. There is no light here, no mercy. Naggarond has claimed the souls of better heroes than you."
  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 1,557
    Also, Drachenfels is 15000 years old, so yes, he is previous to the Old Ones.
    "You stumble about in darkness. There is no light here, no mercy. Naggarond has claimed the souls of better heroes than you."
  • LazykingLazyking Registered Users Posts: 48
    Dragons and Dragon Ogres. And other monsters. The Dragon Ogres where afterall the first whom fell to Chaos.
  • PoorManatee6197PoorManatee6197 Registered Users Posts: 897
    Trolls and sky titans probably are pre-old ones too.
    #MakeDwarfsGreatAgain Josef Bugman, Thorek Ironbrow, Alrik Ranulfsson, Grimm Burloksson, Kazador Thunderhorn, Byrrnoth Grundadrakk, Malakai Makaisson, Gotrek Gurnisson, Garagrim, Dragon slayer, Deamon slayer, Doomseekers, Brotherhood of Grimnir, Giant slayers, Thunderbarge, Shieldbearer mount, Master brewer, Goblin Hewer, Norse dwarf war mammoth, Tractator engine, Rune golem, Shard dragon, proper Anvil of Doom, Ulther's dragon company, Lond Drong's slayer pirates, Everguard, Karak Varn, Karag Agrilwutraz, Silver Pinacle, Karag Dum, Kraka Dorden, Kraka Ornsmotek, Kraka Ravnsvake, Karak Vrag, Karak Azorn, Karak Krakaten.


    All those missing things are grudges in the great book, is in your hand to settle them, CA. Khazukan kazakit-ha!
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 8,694

    Trolls and sky titans probably are pre-old ones too.

    I thought Sky titans are basically the giants the Old Ones created while creating races that would fight Chaos. Then again, it might be talking about the giants of Albion who seem like a separate race.

    To OP:

    There are some water based civilizations that could easily predate the Old Ones. Fishmen get rarely mentioned but a lot of entries on Chupayotl mention them. Although they could be some aquatic offshoot of the Lizardmen for all I know. Don't know if any connection was elaborated upon. There's Triton as well.

    There are subterranian creatures that live in the ground below even the deepest Dwarf and Skaven settlements. Those could be pre-Old One creatures as well.

    Dragons and Dragon Ogres predate Old Ones. In fact dragons were annoyed at the Old Ones shifting their planet around until it wasn't that preferable for them.

    Greenskins could also potentially be a race from before the Old Ones arrived, their origins aren't elaborated upon but they weren't made by the Old Ones, on fact they were more like pests.

    Fimir I'm not sure about.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • beegee84beegee84 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 293
    edited December 2019

    The Darkblade books allure to a pre-old one civilization of fish/lizard like people, on whom's ruins many Old-one and chaos sites were build. A sort of Lovecraftian idea.
    Don't think it exists outside of those books though.

    People having read the entire Sundering, does it mention in what state the Druchii found Nagarroth?

    It talks about malekith finding a city of a unknown mysterious race in which he finds the iron circlet. All of them are skeletons and the book describes the bone structure in detail. And the city description is up there with the best lore ever written its total madness in where the book took me visualising the surreal

    "this was arguably the best part of the sundering trilogy"
  • beegee84beegee84 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 293
    Draxynnic said:

    If I remember correctly there were some proto Lizardman type civilizations, Dragon Orges, and Dragons, and various assorted giant monsters.

    Most lore has the Old Ones modifying populations into the races we know so I assume they were there as well, in caves, hiding from the giant monsters.

    I recall hearing that Drachenfels was originally from pre-Old One original human(oid) stock. Not sure of the provenance of that, though.

    There's also the Sleeper, which was the survivor of an insectoid hive mind that I think the Old Ones had eradicated?
    You beat me too it.

    In orcslayer the worst gotrek and felix book 8 in the series, the sleeper is mentioned and in its thoughts when it tries to connect its mind with felixs are shown to us. The sleeper was alive before the old ones arrived and it waged wars against them until eventually it was trapped underneath karak hirn by magic if a remember right.

    Its terrible book don't read it all its a waste of life the whole story could have been done as a short. Only the last 80-100 pages were worth paying attention too
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 8,145
    Regarding Treemen - it's possible that in earlier lore they predated the Old Ones, but in the 8E Wood Elf army book, they're explicitly a result of the actions of the Old Ones. It is ambiguous if this was deliberate, though.
  • ArtfactialArtfactial Registered Users Posts: 259
    edited December 2019
    beegee84 said:

    The Darkblade books allure to a pre-old one civilization of fish/lizard like people, on whom's ruins many Old-one and chaos sites were build. A sort of Lovecraftian idea.
    Don't think it exists outside of those books though.

    People having read the entire Sundering, does it mention in what state the Druchii found Nagarroth?

    It talks about malekith finding a city of a unknown mysterious race in which he finds the iron circlet. All of them are skeletons and the book describes the bone structure in detail. And the city description is up there with the best lore ever written its total madness in where the book took me visualising the surreal

    "this was arguably the best part of the sundering trilogy"
    I have read Malekith, but not yet the other two Sundering books. The Circlet was found in the Chaos wastes up north, not in what was to become Nagaroth, right?:O
  • beegee84beegee84 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 293

    beegee84 said:

    The Darkblade books allure to a pre-old one civilization of fish/lizard like people, on whom's ruins many Old-one and chaos sites were build. A sort of Lovecraftian idea.
    Don't think it exists outside of those books though.

    People having read the entire Sundering, does it mention in what state the Druchii found Nagarroth?

    It talks about malekith finding a city of a unknown mysterious race in which he finds the iron circlet. All of them are skeletons and the book describes the bone structure in detail. And the city description is up there with the best lore ever written its total madness in where the book took me visualising the surreal

    "this was arguably the best part of the sundering trilogy"
    I have read Malekith, but not yet the other two Sundering books. The Circlet was found in the Chaos wastes up north, not in what was to become Nagaroth, right?:O
    Naggorond is the chaos wastes in the north. In TW2 the whole of naggaroth is further south than it should be.

    I've read that the ancient city he discovered is where naggorond was settled but I can't remember where I read it. Possibly in the army books definitely not in the sundering as naggorond comes straight after those books

    Enjoy the sundering. the best book shadow king is to come. I wouldve said malekiths book was the best if the second half wasn't caladryals story
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 2,808
    beegee84 said:

    beegee84 said:

    The Darkblade books allure to a pre-old one civilization of fish/lizard like people, on whom's ruins many Old-one and chaos sites were build. A sort of Lovecraftian idea.
    Don't think it exists outside of those books though.

    People having read the entire Sundering, does it mention in what state the Druchii found Nagarroth?

    It talks about malekith finding a city of a unknown mysterious race in which he finds the iron circlet. All of them are skeletons and the book describes the bone structure in detail. And the city description is up there with the best lore ever written its total madness in where the book took me visualising the surreal

    "this was arguably the best part of the sundering trilogy"
    I have read Malekith, but not yet the other two Sundering books. The Circlet was found in the Chaos wastes up north, not in what was to become Nagaroth, right?:O
    Naggorond is the chaos wastes in the north. In TW2 the whole of naggaroth is further south than it should be.

    I've read that the ancient city he discovered is where naggorond was settled but I can't remember where I read it. Possibly in the army books definitely not in the sundering as naggorond comes straight after those books

    Enjoy the sundering. the best book shadow king is to come. I wouldve said malekiths book was the best if the second half wasn't caladryals story
    beegee84 said:

    beegee84 said:

    The Darkblade books allure to a pre-old one civilization of fish/lizard like people, on whom's ruins many Old-one and chaos sites were build. A sort of Lovecraftian idea.
    Don't think it exists outside of those books though.

    People having read the entire Sundering, does it mention in what state the Druchii found Nagarroth?

    It talks about malekith finding a city of a unknown mysterious race in which he finds the iron circlet. All of them are skeletons and the book describes the bone structure in detail. And the city description is up there with the best lore ever written its total madness in where the book took me visualising the surreal

    "this was arguably the best part of the sundering trilogy"
    I have read Malekith, but not yet the other two Sundering books. The Circlet was found in the Chaos wastes up north, not in what was to become Nagaroth, right?:O
    Naggorond is the chaos wastes in the north. In TW2 the whole of naggaroth is further south than it should be.

    I've read that the ancient city he discovered is where naggorond was settled but I can't remember where I read it. Possibly in the army books definitely not in the sundering as naggorond comes straight after those books

    Enjoy the sundering. the best book shadow king is to come. I wouldve said malekiths book was the best if the second half wasn't caladryals story
    I'm fairly certain that the city he found was far north of Naggaroth, the place they travelled to was clearly the chaos wastes, which are typically shown to start north of the watchtowers. Chaos was weaker in this time aswell, so the wastes would not have gone that far south. So it seems that the city must be much further north than Naggaroth considering the strong magics of that area.

    I just checked with the book, and they had travelled far north from the coast, almost to the boundary of the realm of chaos. It was around here that the city was found, so It would be quite far north from what would become Naggaroth.
  • ArtfactialArtfactial Registered Users Posts: 259
    beegee84 said:


    Enjoy the sundering. the best book shadow king is to come. I wouldve said malekiths book was the best if the second half wasn't caladryals story

    Cool.:) I'm not a big High Elf fan and really not that interested in Alith Anar..and generally remember Thorpe's writing to be a bit dry. But, I really should get the entire series some time, if only to see Malekith's story unfold and Nagaryte fall.


    I'm fairly certain that the city he found was far north of Naggaroth, the place they travelled to was clearly the chaos wastes, which are typically shown to start north of the watchtowers. Chaos was weaker in this time aswell, so the wastes would not have gone that far south. So it seems that the city must be much further north than Naggaroth considering the strong magics of that area.

    I just checked with the book, and they had travelled far north from the coast, almost to the boundary of the realm of chaos. It was around here that the city was found, so It would be quite far north from what would become Naggaroth.

    Yeah, that is how I remembered it.:)
    Though the Watchtowers had not been build by that time, of course.

  • GazorpayorbGazorpayorb Registered Users Posts: 2
    beegee84 said:

    Draxynnic said:

    If I remember correctly there were some proto Lizardman type civilizations, Dragon Orges, and Dragons, and various assorted giant monsters.

    Most lore has the Old Ones modifying populations into the races we know so I assume they were there as well, in caves, hiding from the giant monsters.

    I recall hearing that Drachenfels was originally from pre-Old One original human(oid) stock. Not sure of the provenance of that, though.

    There's also the Sleeper, which was the survivor of an insectoid hive mind that I think the Old Ones had eradicated?
    You beat me too it.

    In orcslayer the worst gotrek and felix book 8 in the series, the sleeper is mentioned and in its thoughts when it tries to connect its mind with felixs are shown to us. The sleeper was alive before the old ones arrived and it waged wars against them until eventually it was trapped underneath karak hirn by magic if a remember right.

    Its terrible book don't read it all its a waste of life the whole story could have been done as a short. Only the last 80-100 pages were worth paying attention too

    Don't believe this man. I just finished orcslayer and found it to be one of the best books so far, one of the few with actual character development. Giantslayer was beyond a shadow of a doubt the worst book in the series (at least as far as I've read) and it's no surprise Nathan Long took the reins after that. Vampireslayer wasn't great either.
    Was really bummed that GW hasnt done anything with these insectoid dudes but then again Gotrek and Felix seems to be only half-canon at most to GW Grungni knows why.
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