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I want balanced armies!

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  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,262

    Itharus said:



    Not even every race does have counters to everything, lol.

    Disparity of quality is also a huge problem because the game literally DOES NOT ALLOW you to bring enough **** forces to stand a prayer against an elite doomstack. Also the AI can spam these things, they heal up in one turn, they can field many more than you at all game stages, and they can get them considerably earlier than you. It's a huge problem.

    @KielWeiss88 They're using these forces in the early game. Also see arguments above. Furthermore, the beauty of this game is its diversity... when you're stuck with the same 2-3 units over and over it's ****. I could play a paradox game if I wanted that.

    Just play on easy!!!

    2-3 units, really? That's not true, for sure. I have nothing to say anymore, because I don't see that mysterious problem.
    Just play it on easy?

    See now you've just made a complete ass out of yourself and invalidated everything you've put into this conversation so far.

    Also... they do the same thing on easy... the only difference is their morale breaks if you yell at them and your men are all lionhearted. Which is equally stupid.

    Also yes, 2-3 units. Phoenix Guard, Averlorn SisterThingies, and dragons. That's legit armies I see pop up all the time from the AI. Alith Anar tends ot recruit only shadow warriors... which is taking the whole theme thing a little too far. Greenskins are generally Black Orcs and Arachnaroks and NG Fanatics. I could go on.

    If you're not seeing this... you're either willfully not seeing it, or you're not playing the game.
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 175
    edited December 2019
    Itharus said:

    Also yes, 2-3 units. Phoenix Guard, Averlorn SisterThingies, and dragons.

    More like phoenix guards, sisters of Avelorn, swordmasters, dragon princess and dragons = 5. Not 2 or 3. All of you hiding behind witch elves with no armour(real reason why they suck actually) and possibility to use dreadspears in late game, but real reson is:

    Facing elite army is boring for you because kinda hard to win without casualties

    I'm pretty sure it is. I have done 5 or 6 ME campaigns, dude. And same for Vortex, probably. I've seen real "doomstack" with full army of dragons just once(like 2 years ago) in some wandering army(that was some treeman's army with black flag, forest spirits probably or something like that).

    And again, I don't understand how you reading a messages, really...

    I don't mind if CA will rework recruitment system for all races like they did for TK faction, but this should be optional, maybe some option in campaign settings.

    And...

    I don't mind if CA will add some caps like they did for TKs(they are my top3 after DEs and Bretonnia), but I guess this should be optional, don't know, can't say for sure if I never tried this, but anyway, I never use absolute trash tier units when I playing TK in late game, I trying to use only mid or top

    from page 2.

    We just need some more settings for campaign, that's all. Tk's recruitment system is an asnwer to your questions about boring armies. Do you understand that?
  • RodentofDoomRodentofDoom Registered Users Posts: 578
    Ares354 said:

    Main problem with this game is CA didint catch Lore well, how race fight, their strong point and weakness.

    Elite unit should be elite, like Chaosen, should be 40 to 50 man unit, Grail Knight 12-15 etc. Units like Gobos should be around 180-200 and so on.

    Doomstacks are thing because low tier units arent viable after 50-75 turn. But in lore, elites are few, cannot be mass, like in this game. State troops, or marauders or choas warrior should be core of any army, for entire campaign.

    Imho Third Age mod catch that well, elite units are very good, few, expensive, long time to recruit. Vanilla TWW dont have it. You can spam Demis with Empire after your city is big enough, and its just bad.

    This game is not Warhammer Fantasy Table Top
    It is a Warhammer Fantasy themed Total War game, and unit recruitment has ALWAYS been like this.

    There is a platform within the game that allows you to fight battles where unit selection is limited by points (called gold pieces).
    In campaign if you want to modify the base game away from core Total War values, use a mod, there are several very good ones that offer you this option.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • JadawinKhanidiJadawinKhanidi Registered Users Posts: 1,177
    Regardless of the merits of the arguments, we won't get any major changes to how it is from CA. Simply because the players clearly do not want them. That is apparent from just looking at the numbers.

    The various cap mods, although reasonably popular, have something like 10,000 combined subscribers. Obviously, the players except these 10k prefer to play the game as it is.

    Okay, of course there are a lot of players who do not use ANY mods. Because they don't understand what mods do, are not even aware of them, are afraid they will break their game, do not want to play an 'unofficial version' of the game or other reasons.

    But the most-subscribed mod (Better Camera) has 256k subscribers. Meaning there at least 256k people out there who use some kind of mod. Even assuming that every single player who uses any mods also uses that mod, that means only 10k out of 256k of mod users want to play with caps. Less than 5%. Probably much less.
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 175

    If all the doomstack apologists have to offer is condescension and gaslighting, then there's really no reason for CA to not fix it.

    You guys just complain about "doomstacks" and don't even suggest something, a solution, you know? But I do: TK's limits for units. And you just ignore that part and just keep trying to throw some **** on me. Same for VC nerf, when I saw it I and some other people just suggested to fix somehow AR and(or) add more LLs, maybe Marius to face VC. Also, I noticed the fun fact, this happens a lot, but not in 100% of campaigns. And what your suggestions was? Nerf VC's AI? Really? Think twice before spamm with nerfs threads, really.

    At the same time look at Vortex campaign. Votrex is well balanced, because was fully completed in release day, but ME wasn't. I mean all Old World races reworks should have been included at release day, otherwise that looks like early access. Also look at WE, Beastmen or Chaos they are just boring in ME campaign, here is not real reson to play them in campaign. And why Norsca wasn't added to the Vortex? Norscan DLC page on steam says that this race will be playable in game 2. And you know what? Why Norsca playable only in ME campaign? I don't care actually, but this is weird. You see? A lot of real questions here. Why we cannot give AI some region on the map or buy it like in old games? Why we have pocket ladders for units? Also why we don't have some tax settings like in old games? Why some bugs on battle maps cannot be fixed? Why settlements don't change thier skin and battle maps to specific race like in game 1? I mean CA just need to do cities structures right, just add swap-switch setting to achiterture elements, but this not gonna happen, because too much work here now. List of some weird thing is huge and this is not even a half, probably. This no even a real sandbox game you know? Because right now sandbox element here is just a question which city take first? You see?

    So, back to the "doomstacks" problem... I keep saying it over and over again, in steam reviews and here: we need more settings for campaigns. And TK's recruitment system is real solution here, for your specific problem. I'm pretty sure. Also, would be nice to get opportunity to choose starting position. About map generator(like alternative campaign mode) I don't even dream anymore.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 27,162
    edited December 2019
    So, can any doomstackers now offer an answer to my questions?

    Why should 80% of the roster drop out of the game somewhere by turn 30-50 (or at all)? Why should only 3-5 top tier units matter at all in campaign? Why have all stacks in the game become nothing but spammed elites?

    Warhammer has the most diverse rosters of any TW game. Having all that discarded just because the campaign is so terribly balanced and paced is a flaw with the game, not something desirable. Why even bother with "complete" rosters if this is how it is intended?

    If that's how it goes, CA really shouldn't bother and just make DoC's roster in WH3 all about Greater Daemons and forget about Bloodletters and Daemonettes and co. They'd just drop out of the game in miliseconds anyway.

  • KN_GarsKN_Gars Registered Users Posts: 290

    Regardless of the merits of the arguments, we won't get any major changes to how it is from CA. Simply because the players clearly do not want them. That is apparent from just looking at the numbers.

    The various cap mods, although reasonably popular, have something like 10,000 combined subscribers. Obviously, the players except these 10k prefer to play the game as it is.

    Okay, of course there are a lot of players who do not use ANY mods. Because they don't understand what mods do, are not even aware of them, are afraid they will break their game, do not want to play an 'unofficial version' of the game or other reasons.

    But the most-subscribed mod (Better Camera) has 256k subscribers. Meaning there at least 256k people out there who use some kind of mod. Even assuming that every single player who uses any mods also uses that mod, that means only 10k out of 256k of mod users want to play with caps. Less than 5%. Probably much less.

    You either are not aware of all the mods which include unit caps or used a very creative way when deciding which mods to actually count. Mods that include caps as part of a larger overhaul are often more popular than those which add just caps, for example 'Boyz will be Boyz' alone has 10048 subscribers at the moment while SFO Grimhammer has 210268. SFO in particular does not only include caps but also make all units usefull through out the game. When combined with the overhaul of the economy this removes the worst aspects of elite spam.

    Based on your own standard of using 'Better Camera' as a measuring point we can in fact calculate that the majority of players which use mods find a reworked recruitment system which includes some sort of caps enjoyable.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 833
    edited December 2019

    If all the doomstack apologists have to offer is condescension and gaslighting, then there's really no reason for CA to not fix it.

    You guys just complain about "doomstacks" and don't even suggest something, a solution, you know? But I do: TK's limits for units. And you just ignore that part and just keep trying to throw some **** on me.
    Because no one asked until now and the argument seems to center around whether any cap system would be good. We haven't even gotten the conversation to the solutions part.

    For the record, I think any cap system would be better than the capless system we have now. Tomb Kings system would be the weakest soft-cap system, but it would still be a big improvement over what we have now. Any of those unit cap mods would be good options too.

    If you want to read about alternatives, I have been advocating for a Dynamic Battle Value system.
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,713
    edited December 2019
    Itharus said:

    Itharus said:



    Not even every race does have counters to everything, lol.

    Disparity of quality is also a huge problem because the game literally DOES NOT ALLOW you to bring enough **** forces to stand a prayer against an elite doomstack. Also the AI can spam these things, they heal up in one turn, they can field many more than you at all game stages, and they can get them considerably earlier than you. It's a huge problem.

    @KielWeiss88 They're using these forces in the early game. Also see arguments above. Furthermore, the beauty of this game is its diversity... when you're stuck with the same 2-3 units over and over it's ****. I could play a paradox game if I wanted that.

    Just play on easy!!!

    2-3 units, really? That's not true, for sure. I have nothing to say anymore, because I don't see that mysterious problem.
    Just play it on easy?

    See now you've just made a complete ass out of yourself and invalidated everything you've put into this conversation so far.

    Also... they do the same thing on easy... the only difference is their morale breaks if you yell at them and your men are all lionhearted. Which is equally stupid.

    Also yes, 2-3 units. Phoenix Guard, Averlorn SisterThingies, and dragons. That's legit armies I see pop up all the time from the AI. Alith Anar tends ot recruit only shadow warriors... which is taking the whole theme thing a little too far. Greenskins are generally Black Orcs and Arachnaroks and NG Fanatics. I could go on.

    If you're not seeing this... you're either willfully not seeing it, or you're not playing the game.
    Im with Itharus on this one, fighting stacks of the same top tier units over and over again is not fun.

    Variety is fun. And i never liked units becoming useless. It's one reason i think shogun 2 was so bloody good. No unit ever became useless in that game.

    I wish CA atleast implimented the option to turn on tabletop based unit caps or a cap based on multiplayer unit cost values (like jadawins mod minus the veterancy annoyance). Nvm unit balance, they will never have time to fix that. I'll settle for a good mod there.

    With Tabletop-Based unit caps i atleast see a good amount of variety in armies and all units are relevant. It's also in the spirit of the tabletop.

    As for Doomstacks: To me a doomstack is a stack featuring an overwhelming amount of a single unit like 15+ Star Dragons. A balanced stack of only elite units is not a doomstack, but i personally think it's equally stupid.
    Elites, when spammable, can no longer count as elite. They become the norm. They are no longer special. They utterly trivialise any unit that comes before them. And that, to me, is utter ****.
    So a major thank you to modders who allow me to tweak little stuff like this :)


    PS: People praise this games unit variety, which is ironic considering most of the units is irrelevant due to elite spammage :p
  • NyumusNyumus Registered Users Posts: 219

    So, can any doomstackers now offer an answer to my questions?

    Why should 80% of the roster drop out of the game somewhere by turn 30-50 (or at all)? Why should only 3-5 top tier units matter at all in campaign? Why have all stacks in the game become nothing but spammed elites?

    Warhammer has the most diverse rosters of any TW game. Having all that discarded just because the campaign is so terribly balanced and paced is a flaw with the game, not something desirable. Why even bother with "complete" rosters if this is how it is intended?

    If that's how it goes, CA really shouldn't bother and just make DoC's roster in WH3 all about Greater Daemons and forget about Bloodletters and Daemonettes and co. They'd just drop out of the game in miliseconds anyway.

    People allready responded to your questions, you are just throwing out there the same **** over and over again.

    I'm Fine with more options in the game menu, It makes It interesting. But I hate the ones in this thread saying that the game should be played the way they want. I don't like the Idea of unit cap because I'm Fine with How It is righ now (maybe because I play only on Legendary, and Core Units needs tô get the more value, só I use them the better I can, even defeating those "doomstack"), but is simple, want unit cap? Mod It out, but don't teu tô change the core of the game Just because you don't like it
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 27,162
    edited December 2019
    Nyumus said:

    So, can any doomstackers now offer an answer to my questions?

    Why should 80% of the roster drop out of the game somewhere by turn 30-50 (or at all)? Why should only 3-5 top tier units matter at all in campaign? Why have all stacks in the game become nothing but spammed elites?

    Warhammer has the most diverse rosters of any TW game. Having all that discarded just because the campaign is so terribly balanced and paced is a flaw with the game, not something desirable. Why even bother with "complete" rosters if this is how it is intended?

    If that's how it goes, CA really shouldn't bother and just make DoC's roster in WH3 all about Greater Daemons and forget about Bloodletters and Daemonettes and co. They'd just drop out of the game in miliseconds anyway.

    People allready responded to your questions, you are just throwing out there the same **** over and over again.

    I'm Fine with more options in the game menu, It makes It interesting. But I hate the ones in this thread saying that the game should be played the way they want. I don't like the Idea of unit cap because I'm Fine with How It is righ now (maybe because I play only on Legendary, and Core Units needs tô get the more value, só I use them the better I can, even defeating those "doomstack"), but is simple, want unit cap? Mod It out, but don't teu tô change the core of the game Just because you don't like it
    Nope, no one did. Deflections don't count as answers. This is not something all TW did, this is not something that happens in lategame, all BS. Debunked 10 million times, don't bother bringing it up again. It also doesn't answer the question.

    Mods are also fully irrelevant. Modders can stop updating them whenever they want and then you are out of luck. No, CA needs to fix this because the game is broken.

    There's no defense for doomstack spam. It's utterly inacceptable.

  • MooncakeMooncake Registered Users Posts: 607
    edited December 2019
    God, this Frank guy is a moron. Do you really not understand why invalidating the majority of every faction's roster after 50 turns is a problem or are you being intentionally obtuse?
  • Zanemiller147Zanemiller147 Registered Users Posts: 34



    I was rooting for you frank up until this comment. It is ok to read things a second time if you dont understand it the first. You are clearly arguing for arguments sake and not to be understood.

    This should hurt my feelings somehow or what? I no need your approval, you know?
    Celebare said:



    It seems hard for you to understand that the problem is lot the difficulty. It's that the doomstack make the game BORING !!!

    I'm sorry for you but winning against doomstacks doesn't revel a great strategist. Everybody can in this game.

    Is it clear now

    Is it clear now? No, it's not. Winning against anyone not a big deal, you know? I'm pretty sure AI cannot spam you with real "doomstacks" on easy, so try it. Also, I said I don't mind if CA will rework recruitment system for all races like they did for TK faction, but this should be optional, maybe some option in campaign settings. Did you seen that part? Is it clear enough? And yeah, this not about difficulty, sure))) Facing elite army is boring for you because kinda hard to win without casualties, right?)))
    Again you misquote. I will try despite others probably doing it better.

    1) Difficulty is not the problem or even part of the doom stacks complaint.

    2) Doom stacks are BORING because you have to field the same armies to keep beating the “doom” stack. Again BORING it is not related to casualties.

    3) People are saying “doom” stacks are armies that are all tier 4 or 5 units. “Doom” stacks arent unbeatable stacks they are all elite unit stacks.

    4) I dont play easy. I have always played very hard and would play legendary but i like pausing to cast spells. Personally i dont mind doom stacks but i wanted to pipe in when you keep arguing points that arent part of the discussion. Thats why i said i was rooting for you but lost me when you argue about unrelated points. I was pointing out you should take your time, read the comment and if you have too, read it again.

  • NyumusNyumus Registered Users Posts: 219



    I was rooting for you frank up until this comment. It is ok to read things a second time if you dont understand it the first. You are clearly arguing for arguments sake and not to be understood.

    This should hurt my feelings somehow or what? I no need your approval, you know?
    Celebare said:



    It seems hard for you to understand that the problem is lot the difficulty. It's that the doomstack make the game BORING !!!

    I'm sorry for you but winning against doomstacks doesn't revel a great strategist. Everybody can in this game.

    Is it clear now

    Is it clear now? No, it's not. Winning against anyone not a big deal, you know? I'm pretty sure AI cannot spam you with real "doomstacks" on easy, so try it. Also, I said I don't mind if CA will rework recruitment system for all races like they did for TK faction, but this should be optional, maybe some option in campaign settings. Did you seen that part? Is it clear enough? And yeah, this not about difficulty, sure))) Facing elite army is boring for you because kinda hard to win without casualties, right?)))
    Again you misquote. I will try despite others probably doing it better.

    1) Difficulty is not the problem or even part of the doom stacks complaint.

    2) Doom stacks are BORING because you have to field the same armies to keep beating the “doom” stack. Again BORING it is not related to casualties.

    3) People are saying “doom” stacks are armies that are all tier 4 or 5 units. “Doom” stacks arent unbeatable stacks they are all elite unit stacks.

    4) I dont play easy. I have always played very hard and would play legendary but i like pausing to cast spells. Personally i dont mind doom stacks but i wanted to pipe in when you keep arguing points that arent part of the discussion. Thats why i said i was rooting for you but lost me when you argue about unrelated points. I was pointing out you should take your time, read the comment and if you have too, read it again.

    1 - difficulty is a problem, because people complain about endless waves of "doomstack", which happens because the AI get economy bonuses.

    2 - fielding the same tier 1 units aren't boeing, but fielding an mix of tier 4-5 is? Honestly, you guys must be joking right now.

    3 - nope. Elite unit stacks are.... Elite unit stacks. Doomstack is spamming the high end units, without variation of composition making It powerfull and annoying. A Full 18 Mammoth stack from Norsca, Full Dragon stacks, Full Necroflex. Those are doomstack. A mix of SM, PG, DP and Phoenix is a balanced army composition of late game units. I saw some people saying that balanced comps are those composed of ALL tiers, and this is wrong. Balanced army is based on what units your factions could field. HE? A mix of archers, AL and Anti Infantry, can and aerial Monsters os a balanced army, doesn't matter the tier. VCounts? AL, Anti-Infantry, Cavalry, land and Air Monsters os your balanced comp.
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,713
    edited December 2019
    Nyumus said:



    I was rooting for you frank up until this comment. It is ok to read things a second time if you dont understand it the first. You are clearly arguing for arguments sake and not to be understood.

    This should hurt my feelings somehow or what? I no need your approval, you know?
    Celebare said:



    It seems hard for you to understand that the problem is lot the difficulty. It's that the doomstack make the game BORING !!!

    I'm sorry for you but winning against doomstacks doesn't revel a great strategist. Everybody can in this game.

    Is it clear now

    Is it clear now? No, it's not. Winning against anyone not a big deal, you know? I'm pretty sure AI cannot spam you with real "doomstacks" on easy, so try it. Also, I said I don't mind if CA will rework recruitment system for all races like they did for TK faction, but this should be optional, maybe some option in campaign settings. Did you seen that part? Is it clear enough? And yeah, this not about difficulty, sure))) Facing elite army is boring for you because kinda hard to win without casualties, right?)))
    Again you misquote. I will try despite others probably doing it better.

    1) Difficulty is not the problem or even part of the doom stacks complaint.

    2) Doom stacks are BORING because you have to field the same armies to keep beating the “doom” stack. Again BORING it is not related to casualties.

    3) People are saying “doom” stacks are armies that are all tier 4 or 5 units. “Doom” stacks arent unbeatable stacks they are all elite unit stacks.

    4) I dont play easy. I have always played very hard and would play legendary but i like pausing to cast spells. Personally i dont mind doom stacks but i wanted to pipe in when you keep arguing points that arent part of the discussion. Thats why i said i was rooting for you but lost me when you argue about unrelated points. I was pointing out you should take your time, read the comment and if you have too, read it again.

    1 - difficulty is a problem, because people complain about endless waves of "doomstack", which happens because the AI get economy bonuses.

    2 - fielding the same tier 1 units aren't boeing, but fielding an mix of tier 4-5 is? Honestly, you guys must be joking right now.

    3 - nope. Elite unit stacks are.... Elite unit stacks. Doomstack is spamming the high end units, without variation of composition making It powerfull and annoying. A Full 18 Mammoth stack from Norsca, Full Dragon stacks, Full Necroflex. Those are doomstack. A mix of SM, PG, DP and Phoenix is a balanced army composition of late game units. I saw some people saying that balanced comps are those composed of ALL tiers, and this is wrong. Balanced army is based on what units your factions could field. HE? A mix of archers, AL and Anti Infantry, can and aerial Monsters os a balanced army, doesn't matter the tier. VCounts? AL, Anti-Infantry, Cavalry, land and Air Monsters os your balanced comp.
    1: I dont think people mind endless waves of armies. Just the same army composition over and over.

    2: Pretty sure they want units of all Tiers present in armies. Think MP battles is a good example as people use all sorts of units (exept the most cost inefficient ones) there. Tabletop limits such as "core" units, "special" units and "rare" units is also a good example on how armies can be diversified with units of all tiers being options. Putting limits to units should diversify army compositions which is the point people are trying to make.

    Im not saying one way or the other is better. Just wanted to clarify those 2 points as people tend to exxagerate or completely miss the point people are trying to make.
  • RodentofDoomRodentofDoom Registered Users Posts: 578
    Mooncake said:

    God, this Frank guy is a moron. Do you really not understand why invalidating the majority of every faction's roster after 50 turns is a problem or are you being intentionally obtuse?

    I played Shogun when it first came out …

    Most of the roster became obsolete as better quality, higher tier (ELITE) units became available.

    That's the TW way.
    Don't like it, don't play.
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 5,934
    SFO offers different types of caps and is built around them, so I suggest the whole package. But if you want just caps use this: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1456828999&searchtext=tabletop+caps
  • vova514vova514 Registered Users Posts: 31
    Nyumus said:



    I was rooting for you frank up until this comment. It is ok to read things a second time if you dont understand it the first. You are clearly arguing for arguments sake and not to be understood.

    This should hurt my feelings somehow or what? I no need your approval, you know?
    Celebare said:



    It seems hard for you to understand that the problem is lot the difficulty. It's that the doomstack make the game BORING !!!

    I'm sorry for you but winning against doomstacks doesn't revel a great strategist. Everybody can in this game.

    Is it clear now

    Is it clear now? No, it's not. Winning against anyone not a big deal, you know? I'm pretty sure AI cannot spam you with real "doomstacks" on easy, so try it. Also, I said I don't mind if CA will rework recruitment system for all races like they did for TK faction, but this should be optional, maybe some option in campaign settings. Did you seen that part? Is it clear enough? And yeah, this not about difficulty, sure))) Facing elite army is boring for you because kinda hard to win without casualties, right?)))
    Again you misquote. I will try despite others probably doing it better.

    1) Difficulty is not the problem or even part of the doom stacks complaint.

    2) Doom stacks are BORING because you have to field the same armies to keep beating the “doom” stack. Again BORING it is not related to casualties.

    3) People are saying “doom” stacks are armies that are all tier 4 or 5 units. “Doom” stacks arent unbeatable stacks they are all elite unit stacks.

    4) I dont play easy. I have always played very hard and would play legendary but i like pausing to cast spells. Personally i dont mind doom stacks but i wanted to pipe in when you keep arguing points that arent part of the discussion. Thats why i said i was rooting for you but lost me when you argue about unrelated points. I was pointing out you should take your time, read the comment and if you have too, read it again.

    1 - difficulty is a problem, because people complain about endless waves of "doomstack", which happens because the AI get economy bonuses.

    2 - fielding the same tier 1 units aren't boeing, but fielding an mix of tier 4-5 is? Honestly, you guys must be joking right now.

    3 - nope. Elite unit stacks are.... Elite unit stacks. Doomstack is spamming the high end units, without variation of composition making It powerfull and annoying. A Full 18 Mammoth stack from Norsca, Full Dragon stacks, Full Necroflex. Those are doomstack. A mix of SM, PG, DP and Phoenix is a balanced army composition of late game units. I saw some people saying that balanced comps are those composed of ALL tiers, and this is wrong. Balanced army is based on what units your factions could field. HE? A mix of archers, AL and Anti Infantry, can and aerial Monsters os a balanced army, doesn't matter the tier. VCounts? AL, Anti-Infantry, Cavalry, land and Air Monsters os your balanced comp.
    I don't understand why don't you get it.
    1.it is not difficult ,as i have to field "doomstacks" or "elite stacks" or whatever you want to call them.
    2.fielding the same tier 1 stacks would be extremely boring as well.
    3.it's just semantics.the problem is, for example,once HE unlock sisters you wont see any other archers,once the unlock phoneix guard ,you wont see spearmen ,once they unlock dragon princes,no other cavalry etc.

    all we want is some sort of cap system like in quick battles.have you played quick battles?almost every unit can find its way into an army.obviously we want ourselves to be capped by the same rules ,and even give the AI some advantage as it is dumb anyway.the tomb kings have a nice system.
    i understand that people may like the way it is now.that is why at the start of the campaign we should get a choice if we want to play with caps or not,and everyone will be happy
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 5,934
    Well, it seems obvious to me that very concept of "elite troops" include scarcity. If Napoleon's army was fully made of Old Guard than there would have been an "older guard". The swordmasters are masters because they are few.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,262

    Regardless of the merits of the arguments, we won't get any major changes to how it is from CA. Simply because the players clearly do not want them. That is apparent from just looking at the numbers.

    The various cap mods, although reasonably popular, have something like 10,000 combined subscribers. Obviously, the players except these 10k prefer to play the game as it is.

    Okay, of course there are a lot of players who do not use ANY mods. Because they don't understand what mods do, are not even aware of them, are afraid they will break their game, do not want to play an 'unofficial version' of the game or other reasons.

    But the most-subscribed mod (Better Camera) has 256k subscribers. Meaning there at least 256k people out there who use some kind of mod. Even assuming that every single player who uses any mods also uses that mod, that means only 10k out of 256k of mod users want to play with caps. Less than 5%. Probably much less.

    Not everyone likes mods. I am loathe to use them for instance because they break often and usually have a bunch of erroneous **** in them the modder added mostly for his own use or ego (their prerogative, just like it's mine to not use mods). Those like me want a solid and balanced game -- something that any game developer should aspire to. Also your argument is very poorly considered and statisticians everywhere would laugh at it.

    If all the doomstack apologists have to offer is condescension and gaslighting, then there's really no reason for CA to not fix it.

    You guys just complain about "doomstacks" and don't even suggest something, a solution, you know? But I do: TK's limits for units. And you just ignore that part and just keep trying to throw some **** on me. Same for VC nerf, when I saw it I and some other people just suggested to fix somehow AR and(or) add more LLs, maybe Marius to face VC. Also, I noticed the fun fact, this happens a lot, but not in 100% of campaigns. And what your suggestions was? Nerf VC's AI? Really? Think twice before spamm with nerfs threads, really.

    At the same time look at Vortex campaign. Votrex is well balanced, because was fully completed in release day, but ME wasn't. I mean all Old World races reworks should have been included at release day, otherwise that looks like early access. Also look at WE, Beastmen or Chaos they are just boring in ME campaign, here is not real reson to play them in campaign. And why Norsca wasn't added to the Vortex? Norscan DLC page on steam says that this race will be playable in game 2. And you know what? Why Norsca playable only in ME campaign? I don't care actually, but this is weird. You see? A lot of real questions here. Why we cannot give AI some region on the map or buy it like in old games? Why we have pocket ladders for units? Also why we don't have some tax settings like in old games? Why some bugs on battle maps cannot be fixed? Why settlements don't change thier skin and battle maps to specific race like in game 1? I mean CA just need to do cities structures right, just add swap-switch setting to achiterture elements, but this not gonna happen, because too much work here now. List of some weird thing is huge and this is not even a half, probably. This no even a real sandbox game you know? Because right now sandbox element here is just a question which city take first? You see?

    So, back to the "doomstacks" problem... I keep saying it over and over again, in steam reviews and here: we need more settings for campaigns. And TK's recruitment system is real solution here, for your specific problem. I'm pretty sure. Also, would be nice to get opportunity to choose starting position. About map generator(like alternative campaign mode) I don't even dream anymore.
    Errr... lots of people have had suggestions, actually. It's called Unit Caps for the most part. Which... is exactly what the TK thing you are talking about is. Unit Caps that you can expand with buildings. They allow you to make doomstacks, but only limited numbers of them. Which is good. I'd be fine with a system like that, whether its building based or individual army based *shrug*. I'm having trouble figuring out where you stand honestly, sometimes it looks like you want doomstacks and others like you don't.
  • KN_GarsKN_Gars Registered Users Posts: 290
    The core of the problem is that CA forced their system of unit tiers on a setting that was not suited to it, to make matters worse the system they implemented in TWWH was one of the weaker versions they have used and it was made worse by the supply line system which punished a play style not focused on mini-maxin your armies.

    Having a system of unit tiers where your armies evolve as the game progresses made sense when the TW games covered centuries of history with military reforms and changing technologies (i.e Medieval 2 or Rome 2). Even in a more focused game like Attila unit tiers could be used as you upgrade the bulk of your line troops to the new units rather than replacing them outright while also adding additional units, you still had Roman legionaries during the entire game. Shogun 2 chose a different path where the Ashigaru remained viable units due to low cost and larger unit sizes while the Samurai provided smaller, more expensive high quality units. A mix of Samurai and Ashigaru were still a viable army choice even in the late game Realm Divide.

    Warhammer as a setting is in many ways like Shogun 2, it is set at a point in time with limited changes to armies during the period covered by the TW version. Furthermore the Warhammer armies are not well suited to be translated into multiple unit tiers as units are grouped according to how common they were not wether they are 'early' or 'late' game. This leads to a lot of issues as CA began to adapt the armies to their system. For example Empire Pistoliers were given significant nerfs in order to make them into a T2/'early game' unit, and because there is no limit on the spam of elite units Empire state troops which have always formed the core and bulk of the Empire armies vanish from the mid & late game armies (with the exception of handgunners and halberdiers), instead the line troops are suddenly Greatswords and Steamtanks...

    What CA ought to have done was to take inspiration from the Shogun 2 system and make the core troops a viable choice through out the game due to being very cost effective while elite units effective but costly to field in huge numbers. Just as Shogun 2 did some units should be limited by caps so we don't get multiple armies with 10+ dragon/steam tanks/necrofexes.

    But what is done, is done and the current best solution would be an optional cap system added to the game. That way a choice of playstyles would be available rather than forcing one large group of players to rely on mods. (Total War games in general would benefit from more options to tailor the game experience, much like the XCOM games have.)
  • KN_GarsKN_Gars Registered Users Posts: 290
    Nyumus said:



    I'm Fine with more options in the game menu, It makes It interesting. But I hate the ones in this thread saying that the game should be played the way they want. I don't like the Idea of unit cap because I'm Fine with How It is righ now (maybe because I play only on Legendary, and Core Units needs tô get the more value, só I use them the better I can, even defeating those "doomstack"), but is simple, want unit cap? Mod It out, but don't teu tô change the core of the game Just because you don't like it

    You hate people saying the game should be played a certain way then say that everyone else should have to play game they way you prefer because you are fine with the way the game is.....(Nope, saying that others should use mods is not giving them a choice.)

  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 5,934
    Itharus said:

    Regardless of the merits of the arguments, we won't get any major changes to how it is from CA. Simply because the players clearly do not want them. That is apparent from just looking at the numbers.

    The various cap mods, although reasonably popular, have something like 10,000 combined subscribers. Obviously, the players except these 10k prefer to play the game as it is.

    Okay, of course there are a lot of players who do not use ANY mods. Because they don't understand what mods do, are not even aware of them, are afraid they will break their game, do not want to play an 'unofficial version' of the game or other reasons.

    But the most-subscribed mod (Better Camera) has 256k subscribers. Meaning there at least 256k people out there who use some kind of mod. Even assuming that every single player who uses any mods also uses that mod, that means only 10k out of 256k of mod users want to play with caps. Less than 5%. Probably much less.

    Not everyone likes mods. I am loathe to use them for instance because they break often and usually have a bunch of erroneous **** in them the modder added mostly for his own use or ego (their prerogative, just like it's mine to not use mods). Those like me want a solid and balanced game -- something that any game developer should aspire to. Also your argument is very poorly considered and statisticians everywhere would laugh at it.
    Lol, maybe 15 years ago. Modding in modern gaming with workshop support is stable and safe. I regularly play games, including this one, with over 50 mods and never have crashes. It's just a prejudice.
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 5,934

    Regardless of the merits of the arguments, we won't get any major changes to how it is from CA. Simply because the players clearly do not want them. That is apparent from just looking at the numbers.

    The various cap mods, although reasonably popular, have something like 10,000 combined subscribers. Obviously, the players except these 10k prefer to play the game as it is.

    Okay, of course there are a lot of players who do not use ANY mods. Because they don't understand what mods do, are not even aware of them, are afraid they will break their game, do not want to play an 'unofficial version' of the game or other reasons.

    But the most-subscribed mod (Better Camera) has 256k subscribers. Meaning there at least 256k people out there who use some kind of mod. Even assuming that every single player who uses any mods also uses that mod, that means only 10k out of 256k of mod users want to play with caps. Less than 5%. Probably much less.

    You should count the 210k subscribers of SFO, which includes both camera tweaks and caps. Also all other overhauls save for Radious have some form of caps. There is little reason to subscribe to a stand-alone caps mod, so the numbers don't mean much.
  • NyumusNyumus Registered Users Posts: 219
    vova514 said:

    Nyumus said:



    I was rooting for you frank up until this comment. It is ok to read things a second time if you dont understand it the first. You are clearly arguing for arguments sake and not to be understood.

    This should hurt my feelings somehow or what? I no need your approval, you know?
    Celebare said:



    It seems hard for you to understand that the problem is lot the difficulty. It's that the doomstack make the game BORING !!!

    I'm sorry for you but winning against doomstacks doesn't revel a great strategist. Everybody can in this game.

    Is it clear now

    Is it clear now? No, it's not. Winning against anyone not a big deal, you know? I'm pretty sure AI cannot spam you with real "doomstacks" on easy, so try it. Also, I said I don't mind if CA will rework recruitment system for all races like they did for TK faction, but this should be optional, maybe some option in campaign settings. Did you seen that part? Is it clear enough? And yeah, this not about difficulty, sure))) Facing elite army is boring for you because kinda hard to win without casualties, right?)))
    Again you misquote. I will try despite others probably doing it better.

    1) Difficulty is not the problem or even part of the doom stacks complaint.

    2) Doom stacks are BORING because you have to field the same armies to keep beating the “doom” stack. Again BORING it is not related to casualties.

    3) People are saying “doom” stacks are armies that are all tier 4 or 5 units. “Doom” stacks arent unbeatable stacks they are all elite unit stacks.

    4) I dont play easy. I have always played very hard and would play legendary but i like pausing to cast spells. Personally i dont mind doom stacks but i wanted to pipe in when you keep arguing points that arent part of the discussion. Thats why i said i was rooting for you but lost me when you argue about unrelated points. I was pointing out you should take your time, read the comment and if you have too, read it again.

    1 - difficulty is a problem, because people complain about endless waves of "doomstack", which happens because the AI get economy bonuses.

    2 - fielding the same tier 1 units aren't boeing, but fielding an mix of tier 4-5 is? Honestly, you guys must be joking right now.

    3 - nope. Elite unit stacks are.... Elite unit stacks. Doomstack is spamming the high end units, without variation of composition making It powerfull and annoying. A Full 18 Mammoth stack from Norsca, Full Dragon stacks, Full Necroflex. Those are doomstack. A mix of SM, PG, DP and Phoenix is a balanced army composition of late game units. I saw some people saying that balanced comps are those composed of ALL tiers, and this is wrong. Balanced army is based on what units your factions could field. HE? A mix of archers, AL and Anti Infantry, can and aerial Monsters os a balanced army, doesn't matter the tier. VCounts? AL, Anti-Infantry, Cavalry, land and Air Monsters os your balanced comp.
    I don't understand why don't you get it.
    1.it is not difficult ,as i have to field "doomstacks" or "elite stacks" or whatever you want to call them.
    2.fielding the same tier 1 stacks would be extremely boring as well.
    3.it's just semantics.the problem is, for example,once HE unlock sisters you wont see any other archers,once the unlock phoneix guard ,you wont see spearmen ,once they unlock dragon princes,no other cavalry etc.

    all we want is some sort of cap system like in quick battles.have you played quick battles?almost every unit can find its way into an army.obviously we want ourselves to be capped by the same rules ,and even give the AI some advantage as it is dumb anyway.the tomb kings have a nice system.
    i understand that people may like the way it is now.that is why at the start of the campaign we should get a choice if we want to play with caps or not,and everyone will be happy
    Is you who don't get It, why limite the game? I agree on the choice, but I don't on those people that want tô make ALL games like that.
    Option is Fine, limiting is NOT.
  • NyumusNyumus Registered Users Posts: 219

    Nyumus said:



    I'm Fine with more options in the game menu, It makes It interesting. But I hate the ones in this thread saying that the game should be played the way they want. I don't like the Idea of unit cap because I'm Fine with How It is righ now (maybe because I play only on Legendary, and Core Units needs tô get the more value, só I use them the better I can, even defeating those "doomstack"), but is simple, want unit cap? Mod It out, but don't teu tô change the core of the game Just because you don't like it

    You hate people saying the game should be played a certain way then say that everyone else should have to play game they way you prefer because you are fine with the way the game is.....(Nope, saying that others should use mods is not giving them a choice.)

    I'm playing the game as It is, the Total War that selled the most and is the one most played. If you don't like aspects of the core game, you can mod It out, because most of the community like the way It is. I'm not saying people should play the game the way I like, Im Just saying that I like the way It is now (as do a THE MAJORITY of the player base), and the ones not happy with It can Go on, mod It out ir stop playing the game If its not what you like.
  • TsiarTsiar Registered Users Posts: 384
    edited December 2019
    I'm somewhat shocked I'm saying it, but Ephraim is 100% right. **** doomstacks and **** off with the tired "duuuh just mod it maaan". As if the recent patch didn't show just how quickly mods can be made broken and never updated.

    Also, why are people flagging him? lol are you so thin skinned the post below triggered you?

    Nyumus said:

    So, can any doomstackers now offer an answer to my questions?

    Why should 80% of the roster drop out of the game somewhere by turn 30-50 (or at all)? Why should only 3-5 top tier units matter at all in campaign? Why have all stacks in the game become nothing but spammed elites?

    Warhammer has the most diverse rosters of any TW game. Having all that discarded just because the campaign is so terribly balanced and paced is a flaw with the game, not something desirable. Why even bother with "complete" rosters if this is how it is intended?

    If that's how it goes, CA really shouldn't bother and just make DoC's roster in WH3 all about Greater Daemons and forget about Bloodletters and Daemonettes and co. They'd just drop out of the game in miliseconds anyway.

    People allready responded to your questions, you are just throwing out there the same **** over and over again.

    I'm Fine with more options in the game menu, It makes It interesting. But I hate the ones in this thread saying that the game should be played the way they want. I don't like the Idea of unit cap because I'm Fine with How It is righ now (maybe because I play only on Legendary, and Core Units needs tô get the more value, só I use them the better I can, even defeating those "doomstack"), but is simple, want unit cap? Mod It out, but don't teu tô change the core of the game Just because you don't like it
    Nope, no one did. Deflections don't count as answers. This is not something all TW did, this is not something that happens in lategame, all BS. Debunked 10 million times, don't bother bringing it up again. It also doesn't answer the question.

    Mods are also fully irrelevant. Modders can stop updating them whenever they want and then you are out of luck. No, CA needs to fix this because the game is broken.

    There's no defense for doomstack spam. It's utterly inacceptable.
    Preach.
    Post edited by Tsiar on
  • MaksboMaksbo Registered Users Posts: 276
    I too would like more variation across the tier spectre. I agree that the game as is penalises you for not going elite stacking yourself. It ultimately boils down to personal preference whether you like that or not, nobody in here is probably going to convince someone on the other side of the fence, that their subjective opinion is right and they are wrong.

    For what it is worth though, too me the elite stacking and supply line mechanic is the single most problematic aspect of the game right now. I completely agree with the person who wrote, that making units obsolete makes sense in TW games where the timeline moves forward and the units evolve as a consequence... but that is not the case in TWW. Phoenix guard should not be viewed as the evolutionary end step for spearman... they are something on their own.

    Bringing caps on army caps would even open up for additional interesting parameters, that could be tweaked by certain generals. Say, for instance, that swordmasters are capped at max 2 per army... but with Teclis or a loremaster you would be allowed 5 in the stack of said general.

    I hope that CA will have time to go through the supply line mechanic and introduce OPTIONAL unit caps. Why would anyone be against having options on this is beyond me
  • CrajohCrajoh Member Registered Users Posts: 1,931

    ToB and 3K have all unit types available right away save for a bunch you need to research. It's just that, as I said, it balanced the economy better so you can't go all out elite spam in all your armies until fairly late in the game and even then regular tier troops never quite lose their edge. ToB also has unit pools, so you can only recruit so many units of any type at once and elites take much longer for their pools to refresh.

    Mods are a good temporary solution for “realistic “ army composition. I use realistic because chaff stays useful and elites are rare, which is what I like.

    But the issue for me is that I am greedy so I also can’t play without other mods that give me th missing and flavouful units like Expanded Greenskins or Araby. Which are then not automatically included into the unit cap mod.

    Sorry no glasses so my be some autocorrect typos.
    Live your life and try to do no harm.

    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Evelyn Beatrice Hall
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