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Peak gate guards get guardian

another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,989
These guys are rarely ever used
Being the kings guard it really made no sense it doesnt have guardian

This give some role and identity to them

Comments

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,275
    In terms of pure utility, I actually think armour sundering is more useful. It allows dwarf lords (who typically aren't atacked until the end anyway) to deal more damage. And unique.

    But yeah I could see how guardian is a bit more loreful. I do find that so many units get it these days it's feels less interesting as a result.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,989
    eumaies said:

    In terms of pure utility, I actually think armour sundering is more useful. It allows dwarf lords (who typically aren't atacked until the end anyway) to deal more damage. And unique.

    But yeah I could see how guardian is a bit more loreful. I do find that so many units get it these days it's feels less interesting as a result.

    Im adding guardian
    Not trading it for armor sunderinf
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,275
    edited January 9

    eumaies said:

    In terms of pure utility, I actually think armour sundering is more useful. It allows dwarf lords (who typically aren't atacked until the end anyway) to deal more damage. And unique.

    But yeah I could see how guardian is a bit more loreful. I do find that so many units get it these days it's feels less interesting as a result.

    Im adding guardian
    Not trading it for armor sunderinf
    Yeah, I hear ya. I can't decide if that's reasonable/balanced. It's kind of a small change for dwarfs since the unit will almost always be killed off before they start killing the dwarf lords. Might be nice to protect a runelord, though he's usually better off running and hiding anyway. might be nice for gotrek since he tends to take damage incidentally.

    But on the flip side I don't really think the unit is terrible - has some good matchups and build synergies.

    All in all I'd be good with that addition if people don't freak out about it.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,012
    They could definitely use a little bit for free, honestly guardian would in no way break them.

    Honestly though I think they need a broader rework. Players don't typically use a unit that elite in conjunction with lower tier options, and its not like dwarfs are typically the type of flank faction to facilitate those kind of engagements.

    And as nice as guardian would be, dwarf lords are so robust that they probably don't need it.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,989
    You can use your runesmith and runelord more aggressively.
    They are tough already, but it is a help

    Personally might use with grombrindal use smoke, and axe to quickly break a front line
  • PippingtonPippington Registered Users Posts: 2,088
    edited January 9
    Don't think this is a good idea with Felix in the game.

    I quite like the Peak Gate as they are, the synergise really well with Ironbreakers.


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  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,875
    edited January 9
    Tbh I see the Peak Gate Guard quite a bit against a decent variety of factions.

    They seem to have three roles, 1 is as a an AP high MA unit that can go toe to toe with most GW units in the game, 2 as a sort of sweeper unit in the backline where their mass + high armour + armour sundering synergises well with slayers to help against chariot play, 3 for for their magic damage in case of ethereals.

    I think the unit is fine as is, doesn't need any buffs or nerfs. If stats show a buff was required, I would say just do a small (25-50) price decrease as the unit seems to be well-designed imo.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 645
    Let's not encourage Dwarf blobs even more. Dwarfs already weren't very fun to play against before, but Felix blobs make VC blobs look like interesting, dynamic gameplay.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,875

    Let's not encourage Dwarf blobs even more. Dwarfs already weren't very fun to play against before, but Felix blobs make VC blobs look like interesting, dynamic gameplay.

    [derogatory_wanking_gesture.gif]
  • BlastonBlaston Registered Users Posts: 52
    What if instead of the Peak Gate Guard, the Dwarf Thane got Guardian, like Tomb Prices/Masters/Paladins?
    It wouldn't overload an already useful unit, and add Guardian to the roster plus give a little extra reason to bring a Thane when there certainly isn't much reason to now.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,564
    edited January 10
    pls no more Guardian to Dwarfs for toxic Felix/Runelord/Thorgrim/Gotrek boxes camped in a forst with perma chained resistance stacking.

    Nobody enjoys those 20 min games that too often end in a draw. I do think interactions between foot and mounted characters need to be more consistent (basically work same as Tabletop), but playing vs those Dwarf builds that camp a forest with perma ward save is objectively a waste of time, not last due to invulnerability frames from knockback animations.

    Do foot characters deserve to be viable? Absolutely. But until CA fixes the actual core issue no more lazy fixes that end up being overpowered please.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,275
    I tend to agree ward saves reward boxy play and are boring in this game, and healing of single entities is OP and should be nerfed (via caps and/or reductions).

    I'd regularly take the thane if
    a) the charge bonus item were a constant
    b) the expensive rune of slowness was -36%, which would at least let him catch enemy infantry speed units. -18% still leaves basic elves almost as fast as basic dwarves so it's kind of pointless right now. And don't tell me to combine it with rune of wrath and rune because the whole point is to take the thane instead of the runesmith!

  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,989

    Let's not encourage Dwarf blobs even more. Dwarfs already weren't very fun to play against before, but Felix blobs make VC blobs look like interesting, dynamic gameplay.

    How much blob would that be honestly with this change?
    actually would promote using aggressive heroes/lords beside runesmith and runelord slowing everything
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,275

    Let's not encourage Dwarf blobs even more. Dwarfs already weren't very fun to play against before, but Felix blobs make VC blobs look like interesting, dynamic gameplay.

    How much blob would that be honestly with this change?
    actually would promote using aggressive heroes/lords beside runesmith and runelord slowing everything
    People are specifically worried about felix, though of course the thane precludes taking Gotrek.

    Still, thane guardian felix and thorgrim if pretty affordable and blobby. It's not OP but i think the thane would be more fun if his slow item simply allowed him to reliably catch up to enemy infantry. That would reward more offensive play, and since his slow doesn't affect charge speed or animations it's not really as useful in the back lines. So makes for a nice division of skills between him and the runesmith.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,479
    eumaies said:

    I tend to agree ward saves reward boxy play and are boring in this game, and healing of single entities is OP and should be nerfed (via caps and/or reductions).

    I'd regularly take the thane if
    a) the charge bonus item were a constant
    b) the expensive rune of slowness was -36%, which would at least let him catch enemy infantry speed units. -18% still leaves basic elves almost as fast as basic dwarves so it's kind of pointless right now. And don't tell me to combine it with rune of wrath and rune because the whole point is to take the thane instead of the runesmith!

    healing single enteties OP? Not really. Erath Blood got nerfed already with max 4 targets, it does not need any more nerfs.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,275

    eumaies said:

    I tend to agree ward saves reward boxy play and are boring in this game, and healing of single entities is OP and should be nerfed (via caps and/or reductions).

    I'd regularly take the thane if
    a) the charge bonus item were a constant
    b) the expensive rune of slowness was -36%, which would at least let him catch enemy infantry speed units. -18% still leaves basic elves almost as fast as basic dwarves so it's kind of pointless right now. And don't tell me to combine it with rune of wrath and rune because the whole point is to take the thane instead of the runesmith!

    healing single enteties OP? Not really. Erath Blood got nerfed already with max 4 targets, it does not need any more nerfs.
    I agree that earth blood is fine. Earth blood also rarely caps out single entities in terms of healing.
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 204
    Guardian is not balanced for dwarves so long as they have Felix
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,479
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I tend to agree ward saves reward boxy play and are boring in this game, and healing of single entities is OP and should be nerfed (via caps and/or reductions).

    I'd regularly take the thane if
    a) the charge bonus item were a constant
    b) the expensive rune of slowness was -36%, which would at least let him catch enemy infantry speed units. -18% still leaves basic elves almost as fast as basic dwarves so it's kind of pointless right now. And don't tell me to combine it with rune of wrath and rune because the whole point is to take the thane instead of the runesmith!

    healing single enteties OP? Not really. Erath Blood got nerfed already with max 4 targets, it does not need any more nerfs.
    I agree that earth blood is fine. Earth blood also rarely caps out single entities in terms of healing.
    i can assume you are taking about healing SEM chariots against dwarfs, which can be toxic, but it is not problem of SEM and healing. It is problem of some SEM in some MUs.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,275
    edited January 11

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    I tend to agree ward saves reward boxy play and are boring in this game, and healing of single entities is OP and should be nerfed (via caps and/or reductions).

    I'd regularly take the thane if
    a) the charge bonus item were a constant
    b) the expensive rune of slowness was -36%, which would at least let him catch enemy infantry speed units. -18% still leaves basic elves almost as fast as basic dwarves so it's kind of pointless right now. And don't tell me to combine it with rune of wrath and rune because the whole point is to take the thane instead of the runesmith!

    healing single enteties OP? Not really. Erath Blood got nerfed already with max 4 targets, it does not need any more nerfs.
    I agree that earth blood is fine. Earth blood also rarely caps out single entities in terms of healing.
    i can assume you are taking about healing SEM chariots against dwarfs, which can be toxic, but it is not problem of SEM and healing. It is problem of some SEM in some MUs.
    I'm talking about the highly competitive strategy in many matchups of investing in a very expensive and, in whatever matchup, hard to kill SEM (or, with felix, three moderately expensive single entities) and exploiting healing to make them absurdly hard to kill. Healing of single entities is intrinsically hard to balance because you have to balance around the most expensive healable units being worth x% more than they cost. I'd rather the SEMs were a little stronger and the healing less exploitable.
  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Registered Users Posts: 1,935
    eumaies said:

    In terms of pure utility, I actually think armour sundering is more useful. It allows dwarf lords (who typically aren't atacked until the end anyway) to deal more damage. And unique.

    But yeah I could see how guardian is a bit more loreful. I do find that so many units get it these days it's feels less interesting as a result.

    Armor sundering value is pretty diminished by the fact that it's a Melee Great Weapon unit.
    Faith, Steel and Gunpowder Bows
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,275

    eumaies said:

    In terms of pure utility, I actually think armour sundering is more useful. It allows dwarf lords (who typically aren't atacked until the end anyway) to deal more damage. And unique.

    But yeah I could see how guardian is a bit more loreful. I do find that so many units get it these days it's feels less interesting as a result.

    Armor sundering value is pretty diminished by the fact that it's a Melee Great Weapon unit.
    Something I've said constantly for like the past two years, yeah i agree :)

    That said, guardian would be just about useless. And people here also think it would be OP with hero blobs, so even though I think they're wrong it doesn't feel like an improvement.

    The reason I think guardian is useless is dwarfs aren't a faction that occasionally strategically hide their lord in a "tough" unit to protect him. Foot lords are already largely protected being in any unit. And any dwarven unit is going to get carved to shreds before the foot characters start taking any meaningful damage to begin with.

    So guardian in my book has very little point.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,833
    edited January 15
    How about dwarfs get suppression from a ranged asset?
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,400
    Remove sunder
    +20 armor
    +4 def
    or 10% ward

    How about dwarfs get suppression from a ranged asset?

    Only for skolder guard and gyro bombers
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,275
    edited January 15
    ooh suppression on the gyrobomber chain gun would actually make it an interesting unit, i like it!

    you still could only take them with a lot of ground fire support, but that might actually be a really fun combo!
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,400
    eumaies said:

    ooh suppression on the gyrobomber chain gun would actually make it an interesting unit, i like it!

    you still could only take them with a lot of ground fire support, but that might actually be a really fun combo!

    Yea I been trying for that ever since suppression got introduced. If theres any, ANY unit in game that deserves suppression, it would be gyrobomb, they r the closest thing to a gatling. One is a gatling "gun" the others more like a gatling cannon. Its fits the narrative and gameplay and lets just face it after years of tweaks, gyrobombs r still a pretty meme unit
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,275
    Yup and also brilliant addition to give the smolder guard a reason to exist.
  • MTechMTech Registered Users Posts: 511
    yst said:

    eumaies said:

    ooh suppression on the gyrobomber chain gun would actually make it an interesting unit, i like it!

    you still could only take them with a lot of ground fire support, but that might actually be a really fun combo!

    Yea I been trying for that ever since suppression got introduced. If theres any, ANY unit in game that deserves suppression, it would be gyrobomb, they r the closest thing to a gatling. One is a gatling "gun" the others more like a gatling cannon. Its fits the narrative and gameplay and lets just face it after years of tweaks, gyrobombs r still a pretty meme unit
    I still don't know why CA didn't add it the same second they gave the rattling gun the suppression skill,
    but the Gyrobomber also needs more health to ever even get the chance to recover a slice of his cost.
    Same with regular Copters their health compared to Chariots is really low.
    eumaies said:

    Yup and also brilliant addition to give the smolder guard a reason to exist.

    Hmm thinking about the Skolder guard maybe armour sundering or a dmg effect similar to skaven mortars would fit more?
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,989
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    In terms of pure utility, I actually think armour sundering is more useful. It allows dwarf lords (who typically aren't atacked until the end anyway) to deal more damage. And unique.

    But yeah I could see how guardian is a bit more loreful. I do find that so many units get it these days it's feels less interesting as a result.

    Armor sundering value is pretty diminished by the fact that it's a Melee Great Weapon unit.
    Something I've said constantly for like the past two years, yeah i agree :)

    That said, guardian would be just about useless. And people here also think it would be OP with hero blobs, so even though I think they're wrong it doesn't feel like an improvement.

    The reason I think guardian is useless is dwarfs aren't a faction that occasionally strategically hide their lord in a "tough" unit to protect him. Foot lords are already largely protected being in any unit. And any dwarven unit is going to get carved to shreds before the foot characters start taking any meaningful damage to begin with.

    So guardian in my book has very little point.
    exactly, you cant really snipe a footlord inside a infantry, So it wont make a difference
    I just want it to have it more of lore reasons
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,400
    Peakguard should get their sunder tweaked.

    Sunder defence of -6 def on hit instead of sunder armor
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,564
    yst said:

    Peakguard should get their sunder tweaked.

    Sunder defence of -6 def on hit instead of sunder armor

    good point, the thread about Martial Prowess is a spring for great ideas. We can call it "sunder Martial Prowess".
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