Tamurkkhan vs Elspeth von Draken - The Perfect Crossover LP for WH3?

ArneSo#7705

We probably all agree that an Ulric themed Middenland DLC is a must for WH3, but there is one scenario which would be perfect for another empire crossover LP.

If the Middenland LP would be Empire vs DoC we would still need one more Match up between the Empire and the forces of Chaos...

Warriors of Chaos vs The Empire
Tamurkkhan vs Elspeth von Draken

This LP would be based on Tamurkkhan: the Throne of Chaos, a campaign book which describes the Rise and Fall of Tamurkkhan, Champion of Nurgle. This story ended with the final assault on the City of Nuln.

So far about the Lore aspect. The Story and rivalry would be perfect and we can assume that Warriors of Chaos will get a huge rework in WH3 so they would be in a position where they could get DLCs. They are also missing tons of god aligned units and Characters.

Tamurkkhan would add the Nurgle theme for Warriors of Chaos, but what could Elspeth von Draken add? Is she even the most realistic LL candidate out of that campaign book?

In my opinion she definitely is, because she would be a female wizard of death riding a dragon. That would make her Completely unique in the Empire race and is, if we are honest, absolutely badass.

Characters like Emmanuelle von Liebwitz or Theodore Bruckner are no LL material and Jubal Falk is just an Engineer perfect as a LH.

What other things Besides of her character could Elspeth add?

This is based on missing empire units and Heroes as well as content described in Tamurkhan: The Throne of Chaos:

LL: Elspeth von Draken
LH: Jubal Falk

Lord: Arch Wizard
Hero: Master Engineer (Mechanical steed and Steam Tank Mount)

Possible Units:
- Nuln Ironsides (maybe just RoR)
- Marienburg Land Battle Ship
- Longriffles (Snipers similar to Jezzails)
- Celestial Hurricanum
- Carmine Dragon (maybe just as a Mount)

The Land Battleship is originally from Marienburg but ittook part in the Tamurkkhan Book and would also fit perfectly to the engineering heavy Nuln Theme.

The same goes for the Longriffles which are originally a RoR unit from Hochland. They are not mentioned in the book but they would also fit perfectly to Nuln. Furthermore they would fulfil a new role similar to Jezzails.

With those units and the engineer hero it would finally be possible to field a ranged Gunpowder and technic themed army as the empire, similar to Clan Skryre.
Right now the Empire is missing certain niche units to make such an army Build effective enough.

The Celestial Hurricanum might just be a boring magical chariot, but it’s the last Empire Unit from the Army Book and it would also fit to the wizard theme of that LP.

What do you guys think, would you like such a crossover for Game 3 next to another Ulric themed empire LP?

I‘m not so familiar with WoC, so what Nurgle units could Tamurkkhan bring?

Commissar_G#7535

Can someone explain the appeal of Elspeth beyond her reproductive organs?

She breaks so many basic Empire moulds that it's like she's from a different race or game entirely.

ArneSo#7705

Commissar_G said:

Can someone explain the appeal of Elspeth beyond her reproductive organs?

She breaks so many basic Empire moulds that it's like she's from a different race or game entirely.

Well she’s a Dark character perfectly fitting for the dark apocalyptic vibe of WH3.

Tamurkkhan is the Champion of Nurgle, the god of decay, Elsbeth is the most powerful human wizard of the lore of Death...

WaaaghCheif

Commissar_G said:

Can someone explain the appeal of Elspeth beyond her reproductive organs?

Female.

That aside it would give the Empire

• Another Caster LL, but Death
  
• A unique Mount
  
• Probably Legendary Hero Theodore Bruckner
  

I personally, think she SHOULDN'T come. Inb4 misogynistic, I do want Valkia, Nefereta, Sisters, Ariel. Elspeth was made by FW, and she is kind off the antithesis to the Empire themes. Some could argue that only makes her unique, hence why she should be included even more, and that's fair.

But I won't stand in the way if CA chooses this approach, as long as I get Boris with his units at some point.

Tyrant#1234

WaaaghCheif said:

Commissar_G said:

Can someone explain the appeal of Elspeth beyond her reproductive organs?

Female.

That aside it would give the Empire

• Another Caster LL, but Death
  
• A unique Mount
  
• Probably Legendary Hero Theodore Bruckner
  

I personally, think she SHOULDN'T come. Inb4 misogynistic, I do want Valkia, Nefereta, Sisters, Ariel. Elspeth was made by FW, and she is kind off the antithesis to the Empire themes. Some could argue that only makes her unique, hence why she should be included even more, and that's fair.

But I won't stand in the way if CA chooses this approach, as long as I get Boris with his units at some point.

I'd prefer it the other way around. Bruckner = LL, Von Draken = LH
and Jubal Falk needs to make it in a = LL version for generic Empire Master Engineer generals.

Hell I'd prefer Von Liebwitz over Von Draken. She'll have a much more interesting gameplay mechanics being completely useless in combat. Von Draken would just be another OP big monster plus caster unit.

As @Commissar_G said, von Draken just breaks too many Empire norms with her dragon to be a feature. If she does get implemented she should be on a timer like The Green Knight, G&F etc. Suits her lore as being a aloner and massively OP.

saweendra#3399

Middleland first!!! Sigmar heathens shall not keep us down.
For Ulric

SeanJeanquoi

@ArneSo

Another good thing about her as a LL choice is that characters like Toddy are likely to be planted at home within the Empires borders and engaging in the Electoral Politics of their homeland. Elsbeth, Wulfhart and Kurt Helborg are probably the only 3 characters in the running for Empire LL that actually justify a Unique start position abroad, being part of some expedition, crusade or something along those lines.

Elsbeth herself is said to have waged many secret wars behind the scenes against Vampires, chaos etc and in her quest for arcane artifacts and such. She could have a similar campaign to Thorek Ironbrow in that regard as well, since, hopefully, Thorek will have some mechanics based around saving Holds that are in peril and digging through ones that long since fell, to rediscover the traditions and technology of his ancestors.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

kitekaze#9211

Schwarzhelm said:

The LL should be Falk since he embodies the theme of nuln. In the background of Bruckner it is especially written that he no leader, "just" a really strong swordsman. So he should be a LH in my opinion.

Ideally we would get Emmanuelle von Liebwitz for diplomatic screen only while Jubal Falk leads the armies of nuln.
It could be a campaign with more challenging dilemmas since von Liebwitz is said to hold no interest in politics and is not capable in a fight.

Just make Von Liebwitz a LL, with campaign bonus but crappy battle stats. However, one of her mount would be Landship. That would go well with current LL trending.

Falk is like current Ghorst, he should be LH, not LL.

ArneSo#7705

kasunrathnatunga said:

Middleland first!!! Sigmar heathens shall not keep us down.
For Ulric

Read my post again...

I said this could be another crossover after Middenland.

Bonutz#3949

Middenland DLC? Absolutely.

Ehh i’ll pass on Elspeth. Would rather have Helborg, Leitdorf and/or Valten.

SeanJeanquoi

Schwarzhelm said:

Commissar_G said:

Can someone explain the appeal of Elspeth beyond her reproductive organs?

She breaks so many basic Empire moulds that it's like she's from a different race or game entirely.

She is just a mary sue character and I agree that she shouldn't come.

The worst possibility would be if she was made the LL for Nuln. She has nothing to do with its culture, she doesn't represent it one bit!

The LL should be Falk since he embodies the theme of nuln. In the background of Bruckner it is especially written that he no leader, "just" a really strong swordsman. So he should be a LH in my opinion.

Ideally we would get Emmanuelle von Liebwitz for diplomatic screen only while Jubal Falk leads the armies of nuln.
It could be a campaign with more challenging dilemmas since von Liebwitz is said to hold no interest in politics and is not capable in a fight.

A mary Sue is a master of everything they try their hand at and beloved by all, with no flaws. Elsbeth isn't a Mary Sue, she is despised to the point that people regularly try to kill her, the populace lives in fear and disdain of her and shes not even the head of the college of death, nor is she stated to be the most powerful mage in the Empire.

ArneSo#7705

Bonutz619 said:

Middenland DLC? Absolutely.

Ehh i’ll pass on Elspeth. Would rather have Helborg, Leitdorf and/or Valten.

Problem is that Valten is no LL material, Leitdorf cannot leave the empire and Helborg is nothing new...

The new empire LL needs to start in the new part of the WH3 map. The only options here are Emil Valgeir and Elspeth.

Tamurkkhan wouid be a Perfect basis for a WoC vs Empire Crossover and Elspeth is the only option like I already explained in my post.

The units are mostly connected with the Tamurkkhan book or at least to Nuln so it needs to be a character out of that book.

But in this book she’s the only option. Jubal is just a hero, Bruckner is just a generic dude riding a Demygryph and Emmanuelle is no general leading armies.
Jubal is the Perfect LH, especially when we get the generic Engineer Hero option in this DLC.

Why should we get an engineer LL, an engineer hero option and a Wizard Lord? That’s not how CA works!

Elspeth fits with her lore and she is a grimdark character perfect for the Chaos heavy apocalyptic last game of the trilogy.

She’s something new in all terms and we know that CA picks LLs depending on what they would add to the game.
- her badass lore
- Dragon Mount
- Wizard of Death
- generic Wizard Lord option as a mini-me
- Female
- Can work as an expedition force
- Connected with Nuln
- Rival of Tamurkkhan

She is the best Choice of the remaining options.

I assume we will get the following Empire crossovers in WH3.
1. DoC vs Empire (Emil Valgeir)
2. WoC vs Empire (Elspeth)

Labria

Commissar_G said:

Can someone explain the appeal of Elspeth beyond her reproductive organs?

She breaks so many basic Empire moulds that it's like she's from a different race or game entirely.

I agree. She looks more like Vampire Count character than part of Empire.

If Empire will get 4th Lord pack with non-Ulric/middenland stuff, I prefer Jubal Falk. He can be very interesting Legendary lord. He is a much better presentation of Nurn.
I think Master Engineer will be new generic lord option, Empire already have four generic heroes.

SerPus

ArneSo said:

Problem is that Valten is no LL material

How so?

ArneSo said:

The new empire LL needs to start in the new part of the WH3 map. The only options here are Emil Valgeir and Elspeth.

We don't even know how the map would look like, so how do you know that these are the only options?

ArneSo said:

Why should we get an engineer LL

Because the Empire doesn't have such lord yet and he would go perfectly with the whole Nuln faction focus.

ArneSo#7705

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

Problem is that Valten is no LL material

How so?

ArneSo said:

The new empire LL needs to start in the new part of the WH3 map. The only options here are Emil Valgeir and Elspeth.

We don't even know how the map would look like, so how do you know that these are the only options?

ArneSo said:

Why should we get an engineer LL

Because the Empire doesn't have such lord yet and he would go perfectly with the whole Nuln faction focus.

1. Valten just doesn’t seem to be that guy leading his own personal faction. Besides of that, how is he connected with Nuln and the Tamurkkhan campaign book? The fact is, ihr is a badass character but he doesn’t fit for a LP against Tamurkkhan, which is basically what my post is about.

2. Game 3 is a stand alone game so the Empire probably won’t be part of the map. The Dark Lands and Mountains of Mourn definitely will be on the map.

3. From that argument we should also get a Witch Hunter LL because the Empire doesn’t have that kind of LL. Engineers are Heroes buffing troops, they are no commanders.

My post described pretty well why I think Elspeth is the perfect candidate. This speculation is based on the Tamurkkhan Campaign book with its main factions being Nuln and Warriors of Chaos.

So if Tamurkkhan would be the one half of the LP who would be the other half?
- Emmanuelle
- Bruckner
- Jubal
- Elspeth

Out of those Elspeth is the best option because she is unique and fits perfectly against Tamurkkhan. The Champion of Decay vs a Wizard of Death. That’s a really good matchup. Jubal vs Tamurkkhan would just feel forced...

Just think about how CA picks their LLs. I agree that Jubal would also be unique and theoretical could also work as a LL. But he doesn’t fit for a Matchup against Tamurkkhan. He’s a perfect LH like Henri le Massif or Wulfharts hunters.

And another point besides of all the other pros I listed is also, that Elspeth is a female character. We got Aranessa for the same reason even if Vangheist was a way better LL option.

SerPus

ArneSo said:

Valten just doesn’t seem to be that guy leading his own personal faction

People do follow him. If I remember correctly, he was a lord choice in the SoC.

ArneSo said:

he doesn’t fit for a LP against Tamurkkhan, which is basically what my post is about.

That's true.

ArneSo said:

Game 3 is a stand alone game so the Empire probably won’t be part of the map. The Dark Lands and Mountains of Mourn definitely will be on the map.

In that case, how would there be a Nuln DLC in the first place?

ArneSo said:

From that argument we should also get a Witch Hunter LL because the Empire doesn’t have that kind of LL.

My point is that Nuln would be a subfaction heavily focused on the gunpowder units, so it makes sense to add a character who fits into it.

ArneSo said:

Out of those Elspeth is the best option because she is unique

Is she? Jubal looks more unique.

ArneSo said:

besides of all the other pros I listed is also, that Elspeth is a female character

But you already listed that. Is that so important?

ArneSo#7705

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

Valten just doesn’t seem to be that guy leading his own personal faction

People do follow him. If I remember correctly, he was a lord choice in the SoC.

ArneSo said:

he doesn’t fit for a LP against Tamurkkhan, which is basically what my post is about.

That's true.

ArneSo said:

Game 3 is a stand alone game so the Empire probably won’t be part of the map. The Dark Lands and Mountains of Mourn definitely will be on the map.

In that case, how would there be a Nuln DLC in the first place?

ArneSo said:

From that argument we should also get a Witch Hunter LL because the Empire doesn’t have that kind of LL.

My point is that Nuln would be a subfaction heavily focused on the gunpowder units, so it makes sense to add a character who fits into it.

ArneSo said:

Out of those Elspeth is the best option because she is unique

Is she? Jubal looks more unique.

ArneSo said:

besides of all the other pros I listed is also, that Elspeth is a female character

But you already listed that. Is that so important?

She could be some kind of expedition for WH3 vortex.

Well Jubal might also be a unique character, arguing which one is more unique is about personal taste I think.

I agree that Jubal could work, he could come along nearly the same units like Elspeth since he is also part of the Tamurkkhan book.
CA could make the Master Engineer as a Lord option and keep Wizards as heroes only. It could work, but I just think that Elspeth is a better choice against Tamurkkhan with his Nurgle focus. Death vs Death would be a good matchup. This is just my personal opinion of course.

Even with Elspeth, Nuln or a Nuln expedition could heavily focus on gunpowder and technic stuff.

Well I don’t want this to become another female vs male discussion, but since the empire doesn’t have a female character, it is definitely something CA could consider for their decision making process next to all other pros in favour for Elspeth.

If CA needs to make a decision between 2 really cool and unique characters, the fact that Elspeth is female could be the little cherry on top.

But we’ll both Jubal and Elspeth are good candidates that would work. It’s all depending on which Lord option CA want to add. I never thought Jubal is such a popular character, that’s why I picked Elspeth for my post.

So let’s just say Jubal/Elspeth vs Tamurkkhan. I think the matchup between Nuln and Warriors of Nurgle would be perfect, doesn’t really matter which LL gets the spot in the end.

It would be a perfect way to add the missing non ulrican empire things together with WoC Nurgle stuff.

This way the Empire would have representations for its 3 major Cities, Altdorf, Middenheim and Nuln.

SerPus

ArneSo said:

She could be some kind of expedition for WH3 vortex.

Anyone can. But anyway, that approach would destroy the whole point of Tamurkhan DLC. The whole story is about him going to Nuln.

ArneSo said:

Well Jubal might also be a unique character, arguing which one is more unique is about personal taste I think.

Maybe, but the Empire already has a flying wizard LL who even has a buff to artillery units. And if we look outside of the Empire roster then there are two Death caster LLs on dragons(okay, one of them is wyvern). What we don't have is a long-range gunpowder LL. One could argue that it's not that different mechanically from LLs with armor-piercing bows and that would be a fair point, but still.

ArneSo said:

but since the empire doesn’t have a female character

What difference does it make?

ArneSo said:

I never thought Jubal is such a popular character

He's not popular at all. He just fits better as a character representing Nuln.

ArneSo#7705

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

She could be some kind of expedition for WH3 vortex.

Anyone can. But anyway, that approach would destroy the whole point of Tamurkhan DLC. The whole story is about him going to Nuln.

ArneSo said:

Well Jubal might also be a unique character, arguing which one is more unique is about personal taste I think.

Maybe, but the Empire already has a flying wizard LL who even has a buff to artillery units. And if we look outside of the Empire roster then there are two Death caster LLs on dragons(okay, one of them is wyvern). What we don't have is a long-range gunpowder LL. One could argue that it's not that different mechanically from LLs with armor-piercing bows and that would be a fair point, but still.

ArneSo said:

but since the empire doesn’t have a female character

What difference does it make?

ArneSo said:

I never thought Jubal is such a popular character

He's not popular at all. He just fits better as a character representing Nuln.

The main point I wanted to make with my thread is that the Tamurkkhan book would be the perfect base for a Empire vs WoC crossover.

I picked Elspeth but it could of course also be Jubal.

From what I’ve seen here on this forum, most people see Elspeth, Helborg and Emil Valgeir as the most realistic LL candidates. Since Jubal didn’t seem to be quite popular to me and Kurt has no connection with Tamurkkhan or Nuln at all, I picked Elspeth. We don’t have a flying LL for the empire, Gelt only has a boring Pegasus.

SerPus

ArneSo said:

The main point I wanted to make with my thread is that the Tamurkkhan book would be the perfect base for a Empire vs WoC crossover.

It would be for a campaign map with Nuln on it.

ArneSo said:

From what I’ve seen here on this forum, most people see Elspeth, Helborg and Emil Valgeir as the most realistic LL candidates.

I personally think that the best option would be Valten and/or Huss. They can be placed anywhere and also make a perfect "anti-Archaon" late-game threat for Chaos factions.

ArneSo said:

We don’t have a flying LL for the empire

2/4 Empire LLs have flying mounts.

ArneSo#7705

SerPus said:

ArneSo said:

The main point I wanted to make with my thread is that the Tamurkkhan book would be the perfect base for a Empire vs WoC crossover.

It would be for a campaign map with Nuln on it.

ArneSo said:

From what I’ve seen here on this forum, most people see Elspeth, Helborg and Emil Valgeir as the most realistic LL candidates.

I personally think that the best option would be Valten and/or Huss. They can be placed anywhere and also make a perfect "anti-Archaon" late-game threat for Chaos factions.

ArneSo said:

We don’t have a flying LL for the empire

2/4 Empire LLs have flying mounts.

Sorry I meant a dragon flying wizard LL.

Well the empire has so many cool characters but Valten and Huss have no connection with Nuln or Tamurkkhan at all and that’s basically the point I wanted to make.

The missing non Ulric things for the empire are:
- Ironsides
- Landship
- Hurricanum
- Longriffles
- Engineer
- Wizard Lord

Those things are mostly connected with the Tamurkkhan book and Nuln. That’s why in my opinion Valten, Huss, Kurt and Marius don’t make any sense as a LP candidate.

Timpeyo

Tamurkkhan I'd love too see maybe having his start being trying to take the perfect host, Elspeth I'm not to fussed about, Marius has kind off grown on me tho with his personality and relationship with other races

SerPus

ArneSo said:

Sorry I meant a dragon flying wizard LL.

it's not like there is a shortage of dragons in the game. CA even gave one to Lokhir for some reason.

ArneSo said:

but Valten and Huss have no connection with Nuln or Tamurkkhan

Yeah, I know. I was talking in the context of all possible choices for the Empire, since you mentioned Helborg and Emil.

ArneSo said:

Those things are mostly connected with the Tamurkkhan book and Nuln

As you yourself mentioned, Nuln probably wouldn't even be on the map, so Tamurkhan DLC doesn't look that good unless CA decides to make DLCs aimed straight at the combined map.

Draculasaurus

I'd be down for this. Elspeth with the Hurricanum, Wizard Lords, Empire Engineers, Longrifles, and maybe one other unit would be pretty solid.

For Tamurkhan an assortment of the missing WoC monsters (Mutalith, Chaos Warshrine, Chimera, etc) would fit well, and you could have Nurgle-specific RoR for each of them.

Nyxilis

Pretty.mucj scoff at empire norms. If it was GW then it is the norm. Combined with the lack of complaints for every other character that does that for every other races. There are better debate points.

The_real_FAUST

Elspeth lord

Jubal LH
Huss LH


Elspeth would be a deeply unique choice, and would offer more interesting campaign mechanics given she is so different from all other Lords, lorewise, playwise and in what she can offer to gameplay.

Crossil

The_real_FAUST said:

Elspeth lord

Jubal LH
Huss LH


Elspeth would be a deeply unique choice, and would offer more interesting campaign mechanics given she is so different from all other Lords, lorewise, playwise and in what she can offer to gameplay.

different from all other lords - I would say an engineer LL like Jubal as a character killer, especially after Markus was specialized for monsters rather than characters, offers such a role. He's also the only engineer character the Empire has.

lorewise - Huss and Valten both have been in politically motivated conflicts as far as Empire goes(Valten not really), effectively being on the fringe. The only time any of these three can be added to the game is when they are actually alongside the Empire's armies so that does nothing.

playwise - the only thing people come up with is that she would have magic and gunpowder focus which is what Gelt already has.

gameplay - how is this different from playwise? If you're talking battlefield role then Franz's gryphon is already the flying tank.

Crossil

ArneSo said:

I just think that Elspeth is a better choice against Tamurkkhan with his Nurgle focus. Death vs Death would be a good matchup.

Also what CA doesn't do. Mirror match-ups, that is. It was the opposites that CA has matched, Hunter-Beast and such. Although, technically, Nurgle isn't death, he's stagnation. If we go by CA way of making opposites match then progress(Nuln Engineers) vs stagnation(Nurgle) is appropriate, no? In which case Jubal again works better.

The_real_FAUST

Jubal and Marcus are too similar as Lords gameplay wise

Huss is more usable than valten as a LH

If a a semi ethereal death Wizard lord on a dragon doesn't seem different then no other lord will if you take a simplistic attitude

Emil is just an arch lector
Jubal is Marcus with gunpowder
Helborg a tankier duelist empire general.

Jubal as a hero offers more

Elspeth is a dark character and offers a very different campaign than other empire characters who are more typically 'good'

There's far more scope to her than the others.

Don't get me wrong I want them all. But she's a very dark character with mysterious motives which Ca could do a lot with.

Help the empire and order or go down a darker path. Let the player decide.

Draculasaurus

The_real_FAUST said:

Jubal and Marcus are too similar as Lords gameplay wise

Huss is more usable than valten as a LH

If a a semi ethereal death Wizard lord on a dragon doesn't seem different then no other lord will if you take a simplistic attitude

Emil is just an arch lector
Jubal is Marcus with gunpowder
Helborg a tankier duelist empire general.

Jubal as a hero offers more

Elspeth is a dark character and offers a very different campaign than other empire characters who are more typically 'good'

There's far more scope to her than the others.

Don't get me wrong I want them all. But she's a very dark character with mysterious motives which Ca could do a lot with.

Help the empire and order or go down a darker path. Let the player decide.

And of the units or generic lords/heroes that can be added she covers the broadest range in terms of theme, both being themed to Imperial magic (thus justifying Wizard Lords and the Hurricanum) and the city of Nuln (Engineer heroes and Longrifles) which offers a pretty solidlineup for a lord pack.