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Tamurkkhan vs Elspeth von Draken - The Perfect Crossover LP for WH3?

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  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    edited January 2020

    @ArneSo
    The only thing Elspeth has to do with nuln is that she supposedly live there, and thats it.
    She avoids the public and does not interact with the rest of the town, as far as we know she is alot outside of it.

    Jubal on the other hand is stationed in Nuln, is a seasoned soldier, he comes from the gunnery school and uses blackpowder weappons. What makes more sense to represent the famous weaponsmith town?

    He should be the LL.

    Even if you were right (and you aren't) this doesn't matter because we are likely never going to get a faction that starts in Wissenland anymore anyway because the entire province is now landlocked by Gelt on one side and Franz on the other.

    Unless they move Gelt (which I'm all for) then the only way we're likely to get them is if they're out on expedition like Malus is and they have a dual start position.

    Now...who do we know from Wissenland that's very prone to going out on expeditions? hmmm.....
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927

    "In the battle for nuln you had just that, Regiments standing site by site supported by artillery holding the line with discipline and tactics against the onslaught of the chaos monsters. Jubal Falks part was great where he stood in line with his fellow man and brought down the mammoth of Sayl, again with discipline and gunpowder. Than there was Elspeth with her dragon which kills all with its breath attack.... anticlimactic and doesn't fit."


    She doesn't just up and kill everyone, shes flying overhead during the assault, assisting them. Then at the Climax of the battle she stores up and unleashes a spell so powerful it destroys the enemy and transports her through the spirit realm to somewhere else (hence why she disappears.

    This is quite a common trope in the Warhammer lore, the soldiers stave off the enemy while a wizard readies a massive spell that, when unleashed, will win them the battle. That's basically every Lizardmen battle ever in a nutshell.
    Sorry, but you're wrong here. She simply falls off from all the fighting and exhaustion. The only thing she directly fought was a dragon rider in the skies and generally assisted but the finale was Tamurkhan vs Theodore. As Tamurkhan was destroyed so was the storm of magic that he conjured. She was responsible for the necklace she gave to Theodore who she predicted like a damn Celestial Wizard that he would fight against Tamurkhan.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • Ares354Ares354 Registered Users Posts: 4,292
    Crossil said:

    "In the battle for nuln you had just that, Regiments standing site by site supported by artillery holding the line with discipline and tactics against the onslaught of the chaos monsters. Jubal Falks part was great where he stood in line with his fellow man and brought down the mammoth of Sayl, again with discipline and gunpowder. Than there was Elspeth with her dragon which kills all with its breath attack.... anticlimactic and doesn't fit."


    She doesn't just up and kill everyone, shes flying overhead during the assault, assisting them. Then at the Climax of the battle she stores up and unleashes a spell so powerful it destroys the enemy and transports her through the spirit realm to somewhere else (hence why she disappears.

    This is quite a common trope in the Warhammer lore, the soldiers stave off the enemy while a wizard readies a massive spell that, when unleashed, will win them the battle. That's basically every Lizardmen battle ever in a nutshell.
    Sorry, but you're wrong here. She simply falls off from all the fighting and exhaustion. The only thing she directly fought was a dragon rider in the skies and generally assisted but the finale was Tamurkhan vs Theodore. As Tamurkhan was destroyed so was the storm of magic that he conjured. She was responsible for the necklace she gave to Theodore who she predicted like a damn Celestial Wizard that he would fight against Tamurkhan.
    We get it, you dont like her, hardly CA cares if some people on forum hate named character. If she will fit into CA ideas, she will be added, end of story.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    edited January 2020

    Crossil said:

    You didn't even bother thinking about what I wrote concerning faction focuses. Let me put it in simpler terms for you. Kroq Gar provides buffs for Dinos, Cold Ones and Saurus and his personal skills don't buff Saurus so they are the same. He has several different disassociated focuses with most buffs going to Dinos. Gor Rok firmly focuses on buffing Saurus and nothing else so his Saurus are substantially better than anyone else. That's why Gor Rok is the Saurus LL while Kroq Gar is the Dino LL. Gelt and Elspeth focus on exactly same things in exactly same measures(magic first, gunpowder second). The analogy of Gor Rok and Kroq Gar is closer to Gelt and Jubal. Gelt has an ability that somewhat buffs gunpowder(Kroq Gar), Jubal would focus everything he has on gunpowder(like Gor Rok).

    You also say focuses don't matter but for most of this topic people love pointing out her army focus. So there, for anyone who feels like pointing out her focus again she ain't special.

    Thanks but I was already well aware of all that. The fact that Kroq Gar buffs the stats of Dinos is completely incidental to the point I was trying to make about multiple characters having focuses that buff the same unit or unit type.

    Now I’ve noticed that in none of your responses have you mentioned my initial suggestion that Elspeth’s faction focus could be an upkeep reduction for gunpowder(say 20%) and an army focus of improved leadership(her men are more afraid of her than the enemy) and a small ward save and/or magic buffs. Is this not different from Gelt while still playing in the same playground(magic/gunpowder)?

    As for people pointing out faction focuses in a thread about potential LL whom each have a focus as part of their design that is only natural. That doesn't make it important just as people continuously referring to Elspeth's gender doesn't make it important.
    Let me show you the full extent of their differences.



    Kroq Gar has only upkeep reduction of 50% on his saurus. What he mostly profits from is 20 armor and 10 leadership for Dinos.

    Gor Rok has... 20% reduction faction wide, 10% physical resistance, 10 melee defense and a rite for unbreakable and another 10 melee defense.

    Do you understand how different their focuses are? They have overlap but are otherwise different. Gelt and Elspeth have overlap in Gunpowder focus, then they again have overlap in magic focus. These two cases aren't the same.

    You can say it doesn't make it important but it's procured as a positive yet is demonstrably false. And works against her. I just want to say to anyone who says her focuses are important that they should be arguing against her inclusion then.

    Crossil said:

    Except that most characters are on foot at start and some are permanently on foot. It's still a valid distinction, you can't argue against it.

    Harkon is melee/range and uses a pistol. Jubal would be shooting at his targets at Jezzail range(Hochland Longrifle is a sniper with that exact range). It's a long way from melee. Even if there would be some overlap with characters on mounts or monstrous characters it's still a distinction.

    I was never arguing against it being a valid distinction, my argument was that it is not a useful distinction. The only way a true sniper lord would be distinct from a ranged lord like Markus is if they can kill or at least do severe damage to their target before it enters melee and is no longer available for targeting. This is exactly what Markus could do when he was released and was blatantly OP, and why he deservedly got the nerfs he did. This is why I believe Jubal makes more sense as a hero where he doesn’t need that kind of damage to be useful just like Dwarf engineers and gunnery wights.

    Put it another way, lets say that Jubal has a range of 300 and does something in the range of 250-300 AP damage. That sounds an awful lot like Alith Anar. Now if we were to add Alith Anar to the Empire is he all that different to Markus? My opinion is no.
    The reason Markus was nerfed is because he never was a character killer but a monster hunter in lore, not because the role shouldn't be present.

    The fact that there are few direct analogues currently in game doesn't dissuade me that this is a valid type of lord. Just because these abilities are currently based in some hero choices doesn't mean that they couldn't be applicable to lords as well and for them to inflict damage from afar. Which is exactly why I wrote out the rest of his battlefield role. The most accurate analogue in the buffing aspect are the Warlock Master's who also get range buffs to allied units and combined with magic are focused more or range rather than having ranged attacks.

    OP or not I think it is still something that Alith Anar does which Markus no longer does with his range. And Alith Anar has a purpose. And you agreed that Markus no longer fulfills that role.

    Crossil said:

    Except that Wulfrik is a duelist which is no longer true on a Mammoth. Necrofex is not a melee mount if you didn't know. Jubal on a tank is not a problem, in fact, it gives him a different potential role depending on the mount(thanks for pointing it out). So there, first when everyone is on foot he can be the sniper LL, when everyone gets mounts he can be the artillery LL. And who says cannonballs ain't close(enough) to sniping.

    Yes, as I said Mechanical Steeds:
    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Mechanical_Steed

    I don’t see how Wulfrik doing more splash damage on a mammoth is much of a departure from the melee monster that he was to start with.

    As for the Necrofex it has over 40 MA, 400 AP WS and over 9000 HP so it is no slouch in melee if you didn’t know.

    As for Jubal I still see no sense in a mount that would turn the games potentially one and only rifle armed lord into a faceless steam tank. As you noted, either a mechanical steed or a Pegasus so he at least keeps what makes him unique.
    Necrofex severely hampers Noctilus' melee combat potential as it 1. removes AL that he has and 2. because Necrofex melee animations aren't that good. It's not clear from the stats but Necrofex Colossi can't fight against characters due to animations being unreliable.

    Wulfrik loses 32 melee attack, 16 melee defense and 30 armor so he can no longer duel. That's what his character fundamentally is, you know. Also, again, mammoth animations are built for fighting scores of units so, same as with range, when a lord gets into melee the mammoth prioritizes infantry around him. Even the unit card removes duellist from the summary and he becomes anti-infantry like all mammoths. It's a different battlefield role.

    How about Crone Hellebron? Her Cauldron mount turns her from a single fighter into a mobile buff platform intent more for killing masses of low-tier infantry while severely hampering her combat stats so she can no longer effectively fight characters.

    Crossil said:

    Malus is THE Cold Ones LL. He commands the center of the Cold Ones and rides one himself. As for why he was added it's lore relevance. He has entire books.

    I don’t agree that his lore relevance is the reason he was added although it would have played a role. In the end CA are making a PC strategy game so they’ll pick the options they think best add to game play. In Malus’ case they focused on his possession and that has translated into a great battlefield mechanic. However despite the volume of source material they didn’t draw on any of it to add any sort of role play content in the form of quests or deep campaign mechanics.

    Now as a total war fan who knew nothing about warhammer until I picked up total war warhammer I’m fine with that. However I see a lot of posts on here that suggest warhammer fans don’t necessarily feel the same.
    I didn't say his lore importance was source of material, I said that his popularity is the reason he was added. He has more material as in he is an important character to the fandom.

    Crossil said:

    I think people misunderstood what I meant under Elspeth not having a connection with Nuln. What I meant is that she should be on her own, not part of a Nuln based faction. She should be her own character than having engineers and their stuff shoved in her faction. Then she can focus on magic further.

    I can agree with that up to the part about having units such as engineers included because as I said the only way I see the Empire getting new units is via DLC which most likely will take place outside the borders of the Empire so they’ll be added with such lords even if they don’t necessarily match. Just like how warp grinders and mortars were added with Snikch and Eshin.
    Warp Grinders are manned by Clan Eshin primarily, only the mortars are full on Skryre.

    The main point of the main post is a DLC based on Tamurkhan which pits Nuln against Tamurkhan and has an engineer based list. If that really is the source material then it would HAVE to be engineer and mechanical based. In which case Jubal makes perfect sense.

    As for what Elspeth could get that would be connected to her it's stuff that isn't from Nuln. Taking into account that Nuln's main focus is gunpowder if you give stuff to her she ends up leading a gunpowder faction that is completely disconnected from what she is. The main point I make is that if she is to be added I say she shouldn't be added in a DLC that focuses on gunpowder units. Put her as FLC, I wouldn't mind. Make her the lead of a faction of Engineers, I start scratching my head.

    That doesn't mean that the faction is literally Nuln/Wissenland. They can make the faction an expedition that originated from there as to differentiate it from, let's say, Markus' expedtion that originates from Reikland and Boris' Middenland faction. If you don't base it on Nuln it's another Empire expedition. If you base it on magic, then it's not that different from Gelt's faction. Essentially, the Empire would be well served with having gunpowder focused faction, as in gunpowder being the MAIN focus. Elspeth, and Gelt for that matter, don't offer that same as how Malus introduces some units in his DLC but doesn't focus on them. This however is because the one character that could hasn't been important for 3 editions while Malus soared in popularity. These differences don't exist in this discussion, however.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    edited January 2020
    Ares354 said:

    Crossil said:

    "In the battle for nuln you had just that, Regiments standing site by site supported by artillery holding the line with discipline and tactics against the onslaught of the chaos monsters. Jubal Falks part was great where he stood in line with his fellow man and brought down the mammoth of Sayl, again with discipline and gunpowder. Than there was Elspeth with her dragon which kills all with its breath attack.... anticlimactic and doesn't fit."


    She doesn't just up and kill everyone, shes flying overhead during the assault, assisting them. Then at the Climax of the battle she stores up and unleashes a spell so powerful it destroys the enemy and transports her through the spirit realm to somewhere else (hence why she disappears.

    This is quite a common trope in the Warhammer lore, the soldiers stave off the enemy while a wizard readies a massive spell that, when unleashed, will win them the battle. That's basically every Lizardmen battle ever in a nutshell.
    Sorry, but you're wrong here. She simply falls off from all the fighting and exhaustion. The only thing she directly fought was a dragon rider in the skies and generally assisted but the finale was Tamurkhan vs Theodore. As Tamurkhan was destroyed so was the storm of magic that he conjured. She was responsible for the necklace she gave to Theodore who she predicted like a damn Celestial Wizard that he would fight against Tamurkhan.
    We get it, you dont like her, hardly CA cares if some people on forum hate named character. If she will fit into CA ideas, she will be added, end of story.
    Hey, if you make a post talking about how Tamurkhan could be adapted into a DLC, a story in which Nuln(known for engineers and their weapons) is prominently featured and then say how a mage should be in command then what do you expect other than me saying how something doesn't work in that logic.

    Add her as FLC or in a different DLC and I wouldn't care. In this case, however, I will voice my opinion, especially when people start making her out to be things that she isn't.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • Ares354Ares354 Registered Users Posts: 4,292

    Ares354 said:

    Crossil said:

    "In the battle for nuln you had just that, Regiments standing site by site supported by artillery holding the line with discipline and tactics against the onslaught of the chaos monsters. Jubal Falks part was great where he stood in line with his fellow man and brought down the mammoth of Sayl, again with discipline and gunpowder. Than there was Elspeth with her dragon which kills all with its breath attack.... anticlimactic and doesn't fit."


    She doesn't just up and kill everyone, shes flying overhead during the assault, assisting them. Then at the Climax of the battle she stores up and unleashes a spell so powerful it destroys the enemy and transports her through the spirit realm to somewhere else (hence why she disappears.

    This is quite a common trope in the Warhammer lore, the soldiers stave off the enemy while a wizard readies a massive spell that, when unleashed, will win them the battle. That's basically every Lizardmen battle ever in a nutshell.
    Sorry, but you're wrong here. She simply falls off from all the fighting and exhaustion. The only thing she directly fought was a dragon rider in the skies and generally assisted but the finale was Tamurkhan vs Theodore. As Tamurkhan was destroyed so was the storm of magic that he conjured. She was responsible for the necklace she gave to Theodore who she predicted like a damn Celestial Wizard that he would fight against Tamurkhan.
    We get it, you dont like her, hardly CA cares if some people on forum hate named character. If she will fit into CA ideas, she will be added, end of story.
    The same can be said if some people on the forum like a character. If she won't fit into CA ideas, she will not be added, end of story.
    Yea, Empire flc Lord dont fit to CA idea about Empire, and he is not coming. CA chose to add 2 less know LM character, and a lot of people where mad. CA chose to add fake Opera Lady, and people where mad.

    We cant change it
  • Ares354Ares354 Registered Users Posts: 4,292
    Crossil said:

    Ares354 said:

    Crossil said:

    "In the battle for nuln you had just that, Regiments standing site by site supported by artillery holding the line with discipline and tactics against the onslaught of the chaos monsters. Jubal Falks part was great where he stood in line with his fellow man and brought down the mammoth of Sayl, again with discipline and gunpowder. Than there was Elspeth with her dragon which kills all with its breath attack.... anticlimactic and doesn't fit."


    She doesn't just up and kill everyone, shes flying overhead during the assault, assisting them. Then at the Climax of the battle she stores up and unleashes a spell so powerful it destroys the enemy and transports her through the spirit realm to somewhere else (hence why she disappears.

    This is quite a common trope in the Warhammer lore, the soldiers stave off the enemy while a wizard readies a massive spell that, when unleashed, will win them the battle. That's basically every Lizardmen battle ever in a nutshell.
    Sorry, but you're wrong here. She simply falls off from all the fighting and exhaustion. The only thing she directly fought was a dragon rider in the skies and generally assisted but the finale was Tamurkhan vs Theodore. As Tamurkhan was destroyed so was the storm of magic that he conjured. She was responsible for the necklace she gave to Theodore who she predicted like a damn Celestial Wizard that he would fight against Tamurkhan.
    We get it, you dont like her, hardly CA cares if some people on forum hate named character. If she will fit into CA ideas, she will be added, end of story.
    Hey, if you make a post talking about how Tamurkhan could be adapted into a DLC, a story in which Nuln(known for engineers and their weapons) is prominently featured and then say how a mage should be in command then what do you expect other than me saying how something doesn't work in that logic.

    Add her as FLC or in a different DLC and I wouldn't care. In this case, however, I will voice my opinion, especially when people start making her out to be things that she isn't.
    Hardly CA and even GW fallow logic. You have last dlc, ASSASSIN lead armies into combat, bring assassin Lord, which is dumb, yet it is warhammer. You have Lord like Belegar who buff ranger, but they have very little to do with his skill and focus on underground battles, that Lord should buff Miners, Ironbreaker and irondrakes, trollhammer torpedos etc. Yes he dont do that.

    She is powerfull to be LL, she dont need to be overbuffed like Jubal falk who fit LH for nuln, like Theodor Bruckner on reaper. Tho Theodor fit better to lead armies over Jubal and Elspeth

    You may say what you want, CA dont care about us, little ones, they see money. IF she will bring more money to them then Jubal, she will be LL for Nuln dlc if you like it or not.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    edited January 2020
    Ares354 said:

    Crossil said:

    Ares354 said:

    Crossil said:

    "In the battle for nuln you had just that, Regiments standing site by site supported by artillery holding the line with discipline and tactics against the onslaught of the chaos monsters. Jubal Falks part was great where he stood in line with his fellow man and brought down the mammoth of Sayl, again with discipline and gunpowder. Than there was Elspeth with her dragon which kills all with its breath attack.... anticlimactic and doesn't fit."


    She doesn't just up and kill everyone, shes flying overhead during the assault, assisting them. Then at the Climax of the battle she stores up and unleashes a spell so powerful it destroys the enemy and transports her through the spirit realm to somewhere else (hence why she disappears.

    This is quite a common trope in the Warhammer lore, the soldiers stave off the enemy while a wizard readies a massive spell that, when unleashed, will win them the battle. That's basically every Lizardmen battle ever in a nutshell.
    Sorry, but you're wrong here. She simply falls off from all the fighting and exhaustion. The only thing she directly fought was a dragon rider in the skies and generally assisted but the finale was Tamurkhan vs Theodore. As Tamurkhan was destroyed so was the storm of magic that he conjured. She was responsible for the necklace she gave to Theodore who she predicted like a damn Celestial Wizard that he would fight against Tamurkhan.
    We get it, you dont like her, hardly CA cares if some people on forum hate named character. If she will fit into CA ideas, she will be added, end of story.
    Hey, if you make a post talking about how Tamurkhan could be adapted into a DLC, a story in which Nuln(known for engineers and their weapons) is prominently featured and then say how a mage should be in command then what do you expect other than me saying how something doesn't work in that logic.

    Add her as FLC or in a different DLC and I wouldn't care. In this case, however, I will voice my opinion, especially when people start making her out to be things that she isn't.
    Hardly CA and even GW fallow logic. You have last dlc, ASSASSIN lead armies into combat, bring assassin Lord, which is dumb, yet it is warhammer. You have Lord like Belegar who buff ranger, but they have very little to do with his skill and focus on underground battles, that Lord should buff Miners, Ironbreaker and irondrakes, trollhammer torpedos etc. Yes he dont do that.

    She is powerfull to be LL, she dont need to be overbuffed like Jubal falk who fit LH for nuln, like Theodor Bruckner on reaper. Tho Theodor fit better to lead armies over Jubal and Elspeth

    You may say what you want, CA dont care about us, little ones, they see money. IF she will bring more money to them then Jubal, she will be LL for Nuln dlc if you like it or not.
    I never said I can't see CA doing her over others. I'm saying it would be a bad design choice to do it like this, at least from my perspective. No need for fatalism to be the motivating factor of discussion so all this "CA won't listen to our demands" means nothing to me. I discuss things because I like discussing them rather than because I want to dictate the terms.

    Game 1 content is for the most part outdated design policy. I mostly just ignore it as it's too old to be indicative of much. Although a quick look into ME I can't find how Belegar buffs rangers? Or is it some removed ability from before?
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • Ares354Ares354 Registered Users Posts: 4,292
    Crossil said:

    Ares354 said:

    Crossil said:

    Ares354 said:

    Crossil said:

    "In the battle for nuln you had just that, Regiments standing site by site supported by artillery holding the line with discipline and tactics against the onslaught of the chaos monsters. Jubal Falks part was great where he stood in line with his fellow man and brought down the mammoth of Sayl, again with discipline and gunpowder. Than there was Elspeth with her dragon which kills all with its breath attack.... anticlimactic and doesn't fit."


    She doesn't just up and kill everyone, shes flying overhead during the assault, assisting them. Then at the Climax of the battle she stores up and unleashes a spell so powerful it destroys the enemy and transports her through the spirit realm to somewhere else (hence why she disappears.

    This is quite a common trope in the Warhammer lore, the soldiers stave off the enemy while a wizard readies a massive spell that, when unleashed, will win them the battle. That's basically every Lizardmen battle ever in a nutshell.
    Sorry, but you're wrong here. She simply falls off from all the fighting and exhaustion. The only thing she directly fought was a dragon rider in the skies and generally assisted but the finale was Tamurkhan vs Theodore. As Tamurkhan was destroyed so was the storm of magic that he conjured. She was responsible for the necklace she gave to Theodore who she predicted like a damn Celestial Wizard that he would fight against Tamurkhan.
    We get it, you dont like her, hardly CA cares if some people on forum hate named character. If she will fit into CA ideas, she will be added, end of story.
    Hey, if you make a post talking about how Tamurkhan could be adapted into a DLC, a story in which Nuln(known for engineers and their weapons) is prominently featured and then say how a mage should be in command then what do you expect other than me saying how something doesn't work in that logic.

    Add her as FLC or in a different DLC and I wouldn't care. In this case, however, I will voice my opinion, especially when people start making her out to be things that she isn't.
    Hardly CA and even GW fallow logic. You have last dlc, ASSASSIN lead armies into combat, bring assassin Lord, which is dumb, yet it is warhammer. You have Lord like Belegar who buff ranger, but they have very little to do with his skill and focus on underground battles, that Lord should buff Miners, Ironbreaker and irondrakes, trollhammer torpedos etc. Yes he dont do that.

    She is powerfull to be LL, she dont need to be overbuffed like Jubal falk who fit LH for nuln, like Theodor Bruckner on reaper. Tho Theodor fit better to lead armies over Jubal and Elspeth

    You may say what you want, CA dont care about us, little ones, they see money. IF she will bring more money to them then Jubal, she will be LL for Nuln dlc if you like it or not.
    I never said I can't see CA doing her over others. I'm saying it would be a bad design choice to do it like this, at least from my perspective. No need for fatalism to be the motivating factor of discussion so all this "CA won't listen to our demands" means nothing to me. I discuss things because I like discussing them rather than because I want to dictate the terms.

    Game 1 content is for the most part outdated design policy. I mostly just ignore it as it's too old to be indicative of much. Although a quick look into ME I can't find how Belegar buffs rangers? Or is it some removed ability from before?
    Belegard use to have in red skill buffs to rangers over Quarrellers, problem is, CA ofc did it AS CHEAPLY as they do everything free, and when they "buff" up Lords from game 1 up to game 2 standard, they forgot to add foundation skill for some, Belegar is one of them.

    Fatalism is good with CA policy, they DONT even bring game 1 lords to level of game 2 ones, so WHERE is that they listen ? To who ?

    Player perspective is worthless, your, mine. Its CA that matter, that why this whole topic its pointless. We may never see her and nuln dlc, or Empire one.

    Pointless talk about content is wasting breath on matter, we cannot change. Some people wrote here wall of text, for "nothin"
  • whymakemedothiswhymakemedothis Registered Users Posts: 117
    Crossil said:

    Let me show you the full extent of their differences.



    Kroq Gar has only upkeep reduction of 50% on his saurus. What he mostly profits from is 20 armor and 10 leadership for Dinos.

    Gor Rok has... 20% reduction faction wide, 10% physical resistance, 10 melee defense and a rite for unbreakable and another 10 melee defense.

    Do you understand how different their focuses are? They have overlap but are otherwise different. Gelt and Elspeth have overlap in Gunpowder focus, then they again have overlap in magic focus. These two cases aren't the same.

    You can say it doesn't make it important but it's procured as a positive yet is demonstrably false. And works against her. I just want to say to anyone who says her focuses are important that they should be arguing against her inclusion then.

    You have managed to both miss my point and demonstrate it at the same time. I never claimed that Kroq Gar and Gor Rok had the same focuses, but that they both provided buffs to the same unit(saurus) just in different ways. As you have so helpfully pointed out Kroq Gar reduces upkeep and Gor Rok increases the combat stats.

    To make my point as clear as possible this means that is possible for two lords to have an overlapping or even the same focus while still providing different buffs and thus the end result is two different lords.

    And again I see you have failed to engage with the potential focus options I suggested for Elspeth which tick both the gunpowder and magic themes without stepping on Gelt's toes. At this point your continued ignoring of it to instead focus on differences between Kroq Gar and Gor Rok which are frankly completely irrelevant is beginning to border on straw man territory.
    Crossil said:

    The reason Markus was nerfed is because he never was a character killer but a monster hunter in lore, not because the role shouldn't be present.

    The fact that there are few direct analogues currently in game doesn't dissuade me that this is a valid type of lord. Just because these abilities are currently based in some hero choices doesn't mean that they couldn't be applicable to lords as well and for them to inflict damage from afar. Which is exactly why I wrote out the rest of his battlefield role. The most accurate analogue in the buffing aspect are the Warlock Master's who also get range buffs to allied units and combined with magic are focused more or range rather than having ranged attacks.

    OP or not I think it is still something that Alith Anar does which Markus no longer does with his range. And Alith Anar has a purpose. And you agreed that Markus no longer fulfills that role.

    No he was nerfed because he could almost kill another lord in ten seconds using his abilities. This was just more pronounced against foot lords as they have less HP.

    Alith Anar is better at sniping than Markus but only marginally and entirely due to Alith's greater range. Therefore against characters like mages who are probably going to stay too far behind the front lines for Markus to safely target Alith Anar is much better and by extension a character like Jubal would be too. However against melee characters neither are necessarily going to get much work done before they enter melee. In fact both Markus and Alith would rely on their special abilities to do most of the work in such a scenario.

    I won't deny that it's a niche the Empire don't currently have filled but with Markus and the Huntsman General already on the roster I think it's a niche best filled by a hero type character because there is just so much overlap between them.
    Crossil said:

    Necrofex severely hampers Noctilus' melee combat potential as it 1. removes AL that he has and 2. because Necrofex melee animations aren't that good. It's not clear from the stats but Necrofex Colossi can't fight against characters due to animations being unreliable.

    Wulfrik loses 32 melee attack, 16 melee defense and 30 armor so he can no longer duel. That's what his character fundamentally is, you know. Also, again, mammoth animations are built for fighting scores of units so, same as with range, when a lord gets into melee the mammoth prioritizes infantry around him. Even the unit card removes duellist from the summary and he becomes anti-infantry like all mammoths. It's a different battlefield role.

    How about Crone Hellebron? Her Cauldron mount turns her from a single fighter into a mobile buff platform intent more for killing masses of low-tier infantry while severely hampering her combat stats so she can no longer effectively fight characters.

    Look you're right they all change from duellists into mosh pit controllers and that is not too different from a lord going from a character sniper to an artillery piece. However there is still one big difference. Namely that each of these characters still retain their abilities.

    Wulfrik still has hunter of champions and his other abilities.

    Noctilus still has access to all of his spells and is still capable of throwing down in melee.

    Hellebron still has all her abilities.

    Jubal as a sniper would most likely have some sort of focused shot like Markus which he would no longer be able to use from inside a steam tank.

    Now do you see the difference? Each of these lords still does what they normally do just in a different way. A ranged lord mounted on anything they can no longer use their ranged weapon from fundamentally changes them. Hence a steam tank is simply a horrible mount for any ranged lord unless CA found a way to mount them externally and resolve the problem of a unit with two different sets of ammunition.
    Crossil said:

    I didn't say his lore importance was source of material, I said that his popularity is the reason he was added. He has more material as in he is an important character to the fandom.

    Warp Grinders are manned by Clan Eshin primarily, only the mortars are full on Skryre.

    The main point of the main post is a DLC based on Tamurkhan which pits Nuln against Tamurkhan and has an engineer based list. If that really is the source material then it would HAVE to be engineer and mechanical based. In which case Jubal makes perfect sense.

    As for what Elspeth could get that would be connected to her it's stuff that isn't from Nuln. Taking into account that Nuln's main focus is gunpowder if you give stuff to her she ends up leading a gunpowder faction that is completely disconnected from what she is. The main point I make is that if she is to be added I say she shouldn't be added in a DLC that focuses on gunpowder units. Put her as FLC, I wouldn't mind. Make her the lead of a faction of Engineers, I start scratching my head.

    That doesn't mean that the faction is literally Nuln/Wissenland. They can make the faction an expedition that originated from there as to differentiate it from, let's say, Markus' expedtion that originates from Reikland and Boris' Middenland faction. If you don't base it on Nuln it's another Empire expedition. If you base it on magic, then it's not that different from Gelt's faction. Essentially, the Empire would be well served with having gunpowder focused faction, as in gunpowder being the MAIN focus. Elspeth, and Gelt for that matter, don't offer that same as how Malus introduces some units in his DLC but doesn't focus on them. This however is because the one character that could hasn't been important for 3 editions while Malus soared in popularity. These differences don't exist in this discussion, however.

    I agree with you that if making a gunpowder themed DLC Jubal is the perfect lord choice. However I don't think CA decide which lord pack they are going to make based on theme. I'd be pretty confident they choose the lords based primarily on what they add to the game on the battlefield and on the campaign map.

    In that context Jubal just has too much overlap with Markus on the battlefield while Elspeth is much more unique as a hybrid lord. Meanwhile on the campaign map neither of them have any obvious mechanic that would be unique to them. If they were to choose her then there is not much left for the Empire beyond either gunpowder or Middenland themed units. Given her role in the whole Tamurkhan saga it only makes sense they would pair her with those units.
  • Wtfah114Wtfah114 Registered Users Posts: 352
    edited January 2020
    Don’t really care about the elspath/jubal thing, but Engineers are heroes and should stay heroes, empire doesn’t need more huntsman general running around.
  • Ares354Ares354 Registered Users Posts: 4,292
    Wtfah114 said:

    Don’t really care about the elspath/jubal thing, but Engineers are heroes and should stay heroes, empire doesn’t need more huntsman general running around.

    Well Empire still miss 2 Lord types from AB, Grand Master, Wizard Lord
  • ArneSo#7705ArneSo#7705 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 36,845
    Ares354 said:

    Wtfah114 said:

    Don’t really care about the elspath/jubal thing, but Engineers are heroes and should stay heroes, empire doesn’t need more huntsman general running around.

    Well Empire still miss 2 Lord types from AB, Grand Master, Wizard Lord
    Exactly and Grand Masters will most likely come with an Ulric themed empire crossover.

    So after that we only have the Wizard lord and Nuln units left for the empire...

    Who would combine wizards and the Nuln theme? Elspeth von Draken.

    That’s why she is the most realistic option.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    "What has Nakai to do with this?"


    go back and read the comment again if you want the context, I literally explained it.

    "She does break the theme because the empire is not about big dragons and their magic is rather limited when compared to the other races. Elspeth is too over the top with her abilities and just because she collects magical artefacts (like most wizards do!) doesn't explain it."


    so what about the other mages? the Demigryphs? Pegasus? what about the Landships orthe Thunderball hmm? does that count as subtle and restrained?

    Once again, Franz has a dragon in lore and on TT...the leader of the empire has a dragon...but its off-brand.

    the Empire is generally more played straight, but it's by no means grounded in reality or free from OTT units and characters. and as I keep telling you, Elsbeth is supposed to be abnormal, that is the premise of her character.

    She collects ancient and potentially dangerous or profane artefacts. obsessing and experimenting with them is virtually all she does, to try and become stronger and stronger (something Amathyst wizards arent really allowed to do, because of their similarities to necromancy. as you said yourself: Empire magic is kind of more subdued, this is on purpose to avoid dabbling in the occult. Elsbeth breaking these rules is why shes kinda cursed and why gelt is suspicious of her.

    "you use a lot of headcanon to explain the inconsistency but the bit lore you quote doesn't prove your statements."


    what did I say that was wrong?

    "Since when do human wizards dissipate when they use too much magic?
    If they dissipate, shouldn't they die?
    If they die why can she come back to live?"


    I meant to say disappeared, auto-correct screwed me over there. she vanished after the battle, we dont know what happened for sure.

    "Sure they can't simply kill people with political connections but you should be careful if you mess with the church of sigmar. That there is no backlash or at least tension and conflict with the higher ups show how bad her character is written."


    This is false. Gelt Wants her dead, how is that not "tensions with the higher-ups"? In the quote I pulled, it specifically lists her connections as a reason for her immunity.

    If they aren't allowed to take the law into their own hands, then they were acting illegally (the lore even says that only those who either don't know or don't care about her affiliations go after her, Implying that its only misinformed rogue operatives that try to kill her.

    and as I said before: Emanuelle doesn't care about governing correctly, which could also explain it.

    there is enough here to make it totally justified and you've yet to prove any of these points false. Even if you were right though, and this was a blunder, it in no way reflects the rest of her lore.

    "...and where is it stated that Gelt actively tries to kill her?" he obviously wants her dead and it says that his peers are so worried that they fear an open conflict between the two might result from his paranoia.

    "If it is no problem that she has a carmine dragon why don't other wizards have a pet like this? All your explanations are again headcanon, it proves nothing since nothing of it is mentioned or even hinted in Elspeths lore."


    this isn't headcanon, it's 2+2=4.

    I need to stress something here: Its real in the lore! it already exists and was already approved by GW! the burden of proof is on you to tell me how GW is wrong about their own lore/how this makes no sense in the world they made for you! I am simply pointing out how this is justified based on the evidence and text of the lore. meanwhile, you are trying to tell me and GW that the stuff THEY made makes no sense in THEIR world. So far your arguments are anemic at best and based on your "personal headcanon" of how the Empire is to you.

    "In the battle, she flies around and her dragon can't be stopped by the forces of chaos, it kills whole regiments with a single breath attack." wow, almost like its a Dragon and Dragons can do that in this universe, look at Gaulrach, I'm fairly certain his lore and that of many other drakes, speaks of how they can decimate entire units in one attack in the fluff.

    "Karl Franz has a dragon, when did he use it? The dragon was a bad implementation and was lore-wise not even close to Deathclaw. I already mentioned that I am happy that it is not in the game."


    once again, this is you fighting against reality and what GW actually did.

    "So I am not allowed to voice out that I am against the implementation of the Imperial Dragon because CA will not listen to it? If you didn't notice, this is a forum where we discuss what we want in the game and what we don't. I already said why I am against the overgrown Lizard..."


    You can say what you want, and so can I. freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of your speech. You have the right to say something, but when you voice your opinion on a forum its because you want it to be heard, you want others to agree, you want your opinions to come to fruition.

    writing down your opinions on a forum is an invitation to discussion and inevitably: conflict. You can have your opinion but if you don't want it challenged then don't post it, don't engage with counterpoints, its optional.

    "Have you seen how close the LL to each other are in Bretonia? Further, CA can easily expand the provinces as seen in the past."


    Have you noticed that they've been trying to vary the start positions of everyone who isn't a main character of that faction, as much as they possibly can?

    Main characters are put in their rightful place, while every secondary character is used to flesh out that races start positions as best they can (in some cases, they've even moved main characters like Kroq Gar and Teclis too!)

    my point still stands.

    "Ahh yes, because a Soldier like Jubal Falk will never go on a mission outside assigned by the higher-ups. Sure..."


    Does it say that in the lore? because its an intrinsic part of Elsbth's lore that she regularly goes on journies and fights the ruinous powers in secret.

    As it stands, Elsbeth has more precedent for being placed abroad.
  • MythrilSoulMythrilSoul Registered Users Posts: 1,038
    mental note, in addition to saying that skaven needs more units, mentioning elspeth will also causes the forum to devolve into a chimpanzee clan war
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