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Liu Bei Keeps Dying in Mandate of Heaven

Bright_EyesBright_Eyes Registered Users Posts: 232
I've watched several let's plays of the MoH DLC and it looks like Liu Bei keeps dying right at the beginning. It seems that because he doesn't start with Guan Yu and Zhang Fei he keeps getting curbstomped by the Zhang brothers.

Total War is obviously a sandbox, but it's pretty dumb to have a main faction die at the beginning, especially because part of the appeal of the DLC is that it bridges into 190 AD. Kind of defeats the point if Liu Bei is dead 10 turns in. I see Cao Cao is in the south for some weird reason too, that doesn't make much sense, him settling there.

Comments

  • XVypeXXVypeX Registered Users Posts: 276
    Curious to know also if the other generic factions appear from the 190 like Liu yao, Wang lang, Zhang Chao, Ze rong?
    Disappointed about seeing that with Liu Bei also.

    Seriously hope for the patch this gets fixed.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 2,127
    Did not Liu Bei lose his faction several times in real history? Is not the actual historical outcome that Lie Bei's faction is destroyed, at one point Liu Bei joins Liu Biao faction, and then when Liu Biao dies Liu Bei takes over?

    Either way, getting the exact historical outcome is very difficult in a sandbox game like this. Especially for a character like Liu Bei, who for most of the early game would have very little land or troops. If such a character is challengin to the player, it will be very hard for the stupid AI to survive. Otherwise the way to make him survive would be to give him huge artificial buffs that are not historical for him at the time either.
  • XVypeXXVypeX Registered Users Posts: 276

    Did not Liu Bei lose his faction several times in real history? Is not the actual historical outcome that Lie Bei's faction is destroyed, at one point Liu Bei joins Liu Biao faction, and then when Liu Biao dies Liu Bei takes over?

    Either way, getting the exact historical outcome is very difficult in a sandbox game like this. Especially for a character like Liu Bei, who for most of the early game would have very little land or troops. If such a character is challengin to the player, it will be very hard for the stupid AI to survive. Otherwise the way to make him survive would be to give him huge artificial buffs that are not historical for him at the time either.

    No he didn't lose his faction, he was still classed as independent and more of a vassal to other factions you could say.

    A simple method to get him to survive is put him as defensive. His starting location he can defend but if he knows he is overwhelmed then have him be directed south of the yellow river to the safe area around Tao Qian. I understand the sandbox dynamic but for players who prefer the history and in the future once more dlc come out then it would be great if the three main factions would rise from start to finish unless the player is the one who seeks to destroy them.
  • Warlord_Lu_BuWarlord_Lu_Bu Registered Users Posts: 2,328
    heh, the Big Eared Villan is even more useless without his brothers... He should be peddling sandals, not fighting wars!
    "I am the punishment of Tengri, if you had not sinned, he would not have sent me against you." - Chenghis Khan Temujin
  • kk107kk107 Registered Users Posts: 52
    fine with liu bei losing to YT but he could spawn as a horde via event like yuan shao,kong rong, and lu bu
  • Mia022018Mia022018 Registered Users Posts: 83
    Did he actually die or just disappear and then spawn in event again like yuan shao
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,448
    I don't mind Liu Bei's faction getting destroyed by the Yellow Turbans as this is pretty historical and did happen, I would mind if Liu Bei the person died in the game very early on.
  • KirkwaldKirkwald Registered Users Posts: 947

    I don't mind Liu Bei's faction getting destroyed by the Yellow Turbans as this is pretty historical and did happen, I would mind if Liu Bei the person died in the game very early on.

    Well there's a problem that if Liu Bei does survive and become a faction leader of his own, his faction won't be called Shu Han once he becomes King rank.
  • AoishiroAoishiro Registered Users Posts: 111
    edited January 14

    I don't mind Liu Bei's faction getting destroyed by the Yellow Turbans as this is pretty historical and did happen, I would mind if Liu Bei the person died in the game very early on.

    When did it happen? From what I get Liu Bei did well against the Yellow Turbans.
  • KirkwaldKirkwald Registered Users Posts: 947
    Aoishiro said:

    I don't mind Liu Bei's faction getting destroyed by the Yellow Turbans as this is pretty historical and did happen, I would mind if Liu Bei the person died in the game very early on.

    When did it happen? From what I get Liu Bei did well against the Yellow Turbans.
    Aoishiro said:

    I don't mind Liu Bei's faction getting destroyed by the Yellow Turbans as this is pretty historical and did happen, I would mind if Liu Bei the person died in the game very early on.

    When did it happen? From what I get Liu Bei did well against the Yellow Turbans.
    In the novel they even made a name of beating up yellow turbans which is why characters like zhou cang eventually turned back on his old ways and became Guan Yu's squire.
  • XVypeXXVypeX Registered Users Posts: 276
    The problem is once Liu Bei's faction is destroyed then the three brothers are separated and will go to different factions pools so you won't see them again as a team.
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,828

    I don't mind Liu Bei's faction getting destroyed by the Yellow Turbans as this is pretty historical and did happen, I would mind if Liu Bei the person died in the game very early on.

    geh? he didnt get destroyed. He did pretty well against them, but because of corruption he didnt get rewarded until later which was the post as a magistrate in a city. He lost this job when he flogged the inspector who demanded a bribe came. He then served Gongsun Zan for some time until the incident with Tao Qian.

    He should start the game under gongsun zan's banner as a vassal (190 campaign) and have dilemma's move him down to Tao Qian instead of starting in Dong independetly.

    As for 182 start: No wonder. He got a very tough start. It's yet another weird start though as according to the novel he met the 2 brothers before he started all the fighting. But i kinda like it that it unfolds this way.

  • Whiskeyjack_5691Whiskeyjack_5691 Registered Users Posts: 3,445
    I always thought they should add some event to AI Liu Bei where he can confederate with Liu Biao once he dies, or confederate with Liu Zhang at a certain point, and become the faction leader.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,058

    heh, the Big Eared Villan is even more useless without his brothers... He should be peddling sandals, not fighting wars!

    Liu Bei is like Tommy DeVito from GoodFellas, he should go back home and get his Shinebox. :)
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,448
    edited January 14
    Aoishiro said:

    When did it happen? From what I get Liu Bei did well against the Yellow Turbans.

    Such as the instance when Liu Bei got destroyed by the yellow turbans early in the mandate war and he went to Gongsun Zhan for help.
    Kirkwald said:

    Well there's a problem that if Liu Bei does survive and become a faction leader of his own, his faction won't be called Shu Han once he becomes King rank.

    The name "Shu-Han" makes no sense when Liu Bei never sets foot in Shu. I mean how many games out of all the Liu Bei playthroughs does Liu Bei make his historic base in Shu?
  • AoishiroAoishiro Registered Users Posts: 111
    edited January 14

    Aoishiro said:

    When did it happen? From what I get Liu Bei did well against the Yellow Turbans.

    Such as the instance when Liu Bei got destroyed by the yellow turbans early in the mandate war and he went to Gongsun Zhan for help.

    It was neither early, nor by Yellow Turbans. And before It happened Liu Bei fought a lot of times and did well.
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,448
    edited January 14
    Aoishiro said:

    It was neither early, nor by Yellow Turbans. And before It happened Liu Bei fought a lot of times and did well.

    It was before Dong Zhuo entered Luoyang during the early days of the yellow turban rebellion after suffering defeat at the hands of the yellow turbans so yes, judging by how long the three kingdoms period is, this is very early in Liu Bei's career, long before he met Tao Qian in Xu province so this is actually VERY early in Liu Bei's career.
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,183
    IMO they should implement an event where if Liu Bei's faction is destroyed but Liu Bei himself is still alive he should pop back up. He was a persistent bastard after all. For example if he gets destroyed in MoH, he then pops back up in Xu province either taking a region or just having an army and trying to take a region. If he dies in Xu he then pops back up in Jing province. Then his final chance if he fails again is to pop back up in Sichuan(not accurate, he took Sichuan directly and did not gain it after Liu Zhang's death like he did with Liu Biao and JIngzhou, but it could be fun anyway).
  • AoishiroAoishiro Registered Users Posts: 111

    Aoishiro said:

    It was neither early, nor by Yellow Turbans. And before It happened Liu Bei fought a lot of times and did well.

    It was before Dong Zhuo entered Luoyang during the early days of the yellow turban rebellion after suffering defeat at the hands of the yellow turbans so yes, judging by how long the three kingdoms period is, this is very early in Liu Bei's career, long before he met Tao Qian in Xu province so this is actually VERY early in Liu Bei's career.
    We are using the span of the YTR, not Three Kingdoms or Liu Bei's life here. The YTR started in 184, those were the early days. In 189, so five years later. They were practically no more, Bo Cai has been crushed by Huangfu Song, the 3 Zhang were dead and Wan was retaken by Zhu Jun.
    Yet Liu Bei didn't get "destroyed" to the opposite, he showed braveness and ability. It was after that he lost against bandits and joined Gongsun Zan but you insist It was a defeat against yellow turbans, you must have a source that I don't have in that case?
    Cao Cao also lost his army just one year later against Xu Rong, does that mean you wouldn't mind if his faction got destroyed in a few turns?
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,448
    edited January 15
    Aoishiro said:

    We are using the span of the YTR, not Three Kingdoms or Liu Bei's life here. The YTR started in 184, those were the early days. In 189, so five years later. They were practically no more, Bo Cai has been crushed by Huangfu Song, the 3 Zhang were dead and Wan was retaken by Zhu Jun.
    Yet Liu Bei didn't get "destroyed" to the opposite, he showed braveness and ability. It was after that he lost against bandits and joined Gongsun Zan but you insist It was a defeat against yellow turbans, you must have a source that I don't have in that case?
    Cao Cao also lost his army just one year later against Xu Rong, does that mean you wouldn't mind if his faction got destroyed in a few turns?

    The game extends well beyond the scope of the yellow turban rebellion even in the 182 start so no, we are talking about the entire span of the playthrough not just the yellow turban rebellion, therefore Liu Bei's faction was eliminated very early during his career before he fled to Gongsun Zan. Whether if it was by the yellow turbans, this is what I remember from reading Chinese books and basic cursory research didn't turn up anything (maybe it will if I spend about half an hour re-reading the novels again) but I wasn't able to find your source that he was defeated by bandits either. Also remember that during this time period, the term "bandits (贼)" is often used to refer to yellow turban rebels/remnants, such as Zhou Cang's group of remnants being referred to as such where in reality, they were yellow turban remnants.

    The difference between Cao Cao losing to Xu Rong and Liu Bei fleeing to Gongsun Zan is that Cao Cao's faction remained while Liu Bei disbanded his faction as he went to Gongsun Zan, then to Tao Qian where he rebuilt his faction after Tao Qian's death, to have his faction disbanded again fleeing to Yuan Shao, Cao Cao, Liu Biao, etc.

    Also to clarify, earlier in my previous post when I said "Liu Bei got destroyed by the yellow turbans early in the mandate war" I meant for the entire span of the three kingdoms period to decide the next mandate of heaven, not just the war against the yellow turbans.
  • Qin_FengQin_Feng Registered Users Posts: 177
    Does Liu Bei get his brothers at some point? The novel starts with him meeting Zhang Fei and Guan Yu and swearing an oath to live and die together, it would be anticlimactic if he NEVER got them (though it makes sense he doesn't have them at the start because he met his sworn brothers when the Rebellion had broken out already).
  • JerroserJerroser Registered Users Posts: 325
    Qin_Feng said:

    Does Liu Bei get his brothers at some point? The novel starts with him meeting Zhang Fei and Guan Yu and swearing an oath to live and die together, it would be anticlimactic if he NEVER got them (though it makes sense he doesn't have them at the start because he met his sworn brothers when the Rebellion had broken out already).

    He gets them a couple of turns in to the campaign. So be honest in all the lets plays I've seen Liu Bei seems to hold out in the bottom corner of the north east, just above where Kong Rong starts in the main campaign.
  • AoishiroAoishiro Registered Users Posts: 111

    Aoishiro said:

    We are using the span of the YTR, not Three Kingdoms or Liu Bei's life here. The YTR started in 184, those were the early days. In 189, so five years later. They were practically no more, Bo Cai has been crushed by Huangfu Song, the 3 Zhang were dead and Wan was retaken by Zhu Jun.
    Yet Liu Bei didn't get "destroyed" to the opposite, he showed braveness and ability. It was after that he lost against bandits and joined Gongsun Zan but you insist It was a defeat against yellow turbans, you must have a source that I don't have in that case?
    Cao Cao also lost his army just one year later against Xu Rong, does that mean you wouldn't mind if his faction got destroyed in a few turns?

    The game extends well beyond the scope of the yellow turban rebellion even in the 182 start so no, we are talking about the entire span of the playthrough not just the yellow turban rebellion, therefore Liu Bei's faction was eliminated very early during his career before he fled to Gongsun Zan. Whether if it was by the yellow turbans, this is what I remember from reading Chinese books and basic cursory research didn't turn up anything (maybe it will if I spend about half an hour re-reading the novels again) but I wasn't able to find your source that he was defeated by bandits either. Also remember that during this time period, the term "bandits (贼)" is often used to refer to yellow turban rebels/remnants, such as Zhou Cang's group of remnants being referred to as such where in reality, they were yellow turban remnants.

    The difference between Cao Cao losing to Xu Rong and Liu Bei fleeing to Gongsun Zan is that Cao Cao's faction remained while Liu Bei disbanded his faction as he went to Gongsun Zan, then to Tao Qian where he rebuilt his faction after Tao Qian's death, to have his faction disbanded again fleeing to Yuan Shao, Cao Cao, Liu Biao, etc.

    Also to clarify, earlier in my previous post when I said "Liu Bei got destroyed by the yellow turbans early in the mandate war" I meant for the entire span of the three kingdoms period to decide the next mandate of heaven, not just the war against the yellow turbans.
    I agree on some things, disagree on others. From my view, Liu Bei always had a core of officers and followers with him. His faction shouldn't disappear but get vassalized or go on as a horde/mercenary group.
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,448
    edited January 15
    Aoishiro said:

    I agree on some things, disagree on others. From my view, Liu Bei always had a core of officers and followers with him. His faction shouldn't disappear but get vassalized or go on as a horde/mercenary group.

    Yes Liu Bei did indeed have a core of officers which followed him loyally even when his faction was destroyed, but that doesn't change how his faction got destroyed multiple times throughout his career until he finally settled in southern Jing province and eventually in Shu. I don't think that Liu Bei being a vassal really makes sense because technically he didn't really hold land or have his own diplomacy during his stay with Yuan Shao, Cao Cao and in the early days with Liu Biao (yes eventually a good portion of lands went to Liu Bei but not at the start no). Therefore, what I would say that makes most sense is that Liu Bei and Co. should be in the hiring pool as a group, meaning that hiring Liu Bei would also mean hiring his followers including his brothers and others as well depending on the year they are hired and the availability of characters like Zhao Yun.
  • Bright_EyesBright_Eyes Registered Users Posts: 232
    The problem is that while Liu Bei kept losing his men, he and his officers kept reforming up and coming back.

    In Mandate of Heaven, Liu Bei's faction gets destroyed in 15 turns and then his faction is gone forever. His officers disperse and he just becomes an officer.
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