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What Vampire Counts could've been, had the treatment been that of game 2 races.

CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,555
edited January 15 in General Discussion
There is no denying the fact that CA's design policy has evolved in game 2 compared to game 1. Every legendary lord has a unique start postion, LLs are chosen for their battlefield roles and what they represent rather than having several close knit groupings. Another major point is that regional occupation also created some limits on where LLs can be places. I think the Vampire Counts at 5 LLs suffered perhaps the most from this. Now, Empire did as well but I think with Vampire Counts it's more obvious as the Empire is far more closed on what kinds of characters it has where. I might make a similar post for the Empire at some other point.

So how could've it looked had CA gone into game 1 with the same ideas as with game 2? Well, here's a presentation, going solely on loreful positions(barring one) of characters without even going into "expeditionary" takes that CA has been doing and no regional occupation. Went up to 7 LLs just for fun(and to raise the rage levels of people seeing even more vampires on the map).

The Old World torn asunder:



Mannfred Von Carstein in Castle Drakenhof - caster/melee combo

Heinrich Kemmler in Forest of Chalons - pure spellcaster

Red Duke/Walach Harkon in Mousillon/Blood Keep - cavalry specialist

Zacharias the Everliving in the Forest of Shadows - flyer specialist(?, he is the only one other than Abhorash to assuage the thirst by taking dragon's blood and promptly got it as his mount)

Neferata in Silver Pinnacle - important lore character, mostly focused on campaign mechanics

Ushoran(or some other Strigoi) in Mourkain - monster specialist

Imagine Vampiretide but with this(or close to this) set up.

UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

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Comments

  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 5,750
    Vlad, the only and true Emperor is missing though
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 2,130
    edited January 15
    no Vlad
    no Konrad

    Delete
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,555
    neodeinos said:

    Vlad, the only and true Emperor is missing though

    SerPus said:

    no Vlad
    no Konrad

    Delete
    Some sacrifices must be made to achieve dominion over all. The Old World must be broken from many sides if we are to triumph.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • ZilongZilong Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 501
    If the choice is between Vlad and this, I will choose Vladdy every time.
  • FossowayFossoway Registered Users Posts: 3,262
    What it should have been:
    - Manfred von Carstein
    - Vlad von Carstein + Isabella as Legendary Hero
    - Heinrich Kemmler
    - Red Duke or Mallobaude in Mousillon
    - Neferata
    - Walach Harkon

    No Ghorst, no Isabella taking the Empire FLC lord spot. Just the 6 main "Vampire Counts" lords/subfactions. Any other undead or vampire lord should have been left for a potential "Legions of Nagash" faction.
  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 5,750
    Crossil said:

    neodeinos said:

    Vlad, the only and true Emperor is missing though

    SerPus said:

    no Vlad
    no Konrad

    Delete
    Some sacrifices must be made to achieve dominion over all. The Old World must be broken from many sides if we are to triumph.
    How am I supposed to play the Empire if I can't pick Vlad
  • WaaaghCheifWaaaghCheif Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,201


    I am mostly fine with what CA went with the Vampire Counts over the course of game 1.

    With the exception of one thing.

    HELMAN GHORST, CA painted themselves into a corner by sticking to Sigmars Blood. Or they just felt like putting a Zombie in a Necromancers Robe to save some Charlemagnes.

    We should have gotten Zacharias the Everliving.



    If CA didn't create Cylostra out of thin air, and instead made Louis Cypher something, he could have been repurposed as a Necarch Bloodline Lord.



    Still no Necarch representation. (Kitbash doesn't count)



    Still no Lahmia representation. (Kitbash doesn't count)




  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 2,130
    Crossil said:

    Some sacrifices

    Removing all VC characters but two isn't just "some" sacrifice. Especially if we are talking about The Vampire Count
  • englisharcher89englisharcher89 Senior Member Bath, UKRegistered Users Posts: 4,170
    Fossoway said:

    What it should have been:
    - Manfred von Carstein
    - Vlad von Carstein + Isabella as Legendary Hero
    - Heinrich Kemmler
    - Red Duke or Mallobaude in Mousillon
    - Neferata
    - Walach Harkon

    No Ghorst, no Isabella taking the Empire FLC lord spot. Just the 6 main "Vampire Counts" lords/subfactions. Any other undead or vampire lord should have been left for a potential "Legions of Nagash" faction.

    I agree about Isabella she should have been Legendary hero, instead there should be Zacharias or Walach Harkon.
    Vampire Counts
    Tomb Kings
    The Empire

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,555
    Fossoway said:

    What it should have been:
    - Manfred von Carstein
    - Vlad von Carstein + Isabella as Legendary Hero
    - Heinrich Kemmler
    - Red Duke or Mallobaude in Mousillon
    - Neferata
    - Walach Harkon

    No Ghorst, no Isabella taking the Empire FLC lord spot. Just the 6 main "Vampire Counts" lords/subfactions. Any other undead or vampire lord should have been left for a potential "Legions of Nagash" faction.

    Eeeehh, I mostly went with what I could make up from gameplay perspective for characters that have been around. This is why Vlad would end up like one of the other characters.

    I did forget Mallobaude, however. I guess he could swap over Red Duke to give something else.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • FossowayFossoway Registered Users Posts: 3,262
    Everyone talking about this or that vampire lord, but you're forgetting the most important thing: playable Mousillon > Everything else.

    Undead bretonnian subfaction with yellow colour is the one thing I've been waiting for since release day of Warhammer 1. It just has so much more to offer than some rando other vampire lord.
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 2,130

    We should have gotten Zacharias the Everliving.

    We should've got Konrad. He's the only one who's missing.
  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 5,750
    SerPus said:

    We should have gotten Zacharias the Everliving.

    We should've got Konrad. He's the only one who's missing.
    Meh, yet another von Carstein. I want other bloodlines.
  • FossowayFossoway Registered Users Posts: 3,262
    Crossil said:

    Fossoway said:

    What it should have been:
    - Manfred von Carstein
    - Vlad von Carstein + Isabella as Legendary Hero
    - Heinrich Kemmler
    - Red Duke or Mallobaude in Mousillon
    - Neferata
    - Walach Harkon

    No Ghorst, no Isabella taking the Empire FLC lord spot. Just the 6 main "Vampire Counts" lords/subfactions. Any other undead or vampire lord should have been left for a potential "Legions of Nagash" faction.

    Eeeehh, I mostly went with what I could make up from gameplay perspective for characters that have been around. This is why Vlad would end up like one of the other characters.

    I did forget Mallobaude, however. I guess he could swap over Red Duke to give something else.
    I feel they backed themselves into a corner by adding the Red Duke. Mallobaude would have been had a lot more to offer gameplay-wise, but since we already got the Red Duke, Mallobaude's fate is uncertain.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,555
    SerPus said:

    Crossil said:

    Some sacrifices

    Removing all VC characters but two isn't just "some" sacrifice. Especially if we are talking about The Vampire Count
    Zacharias was part of 6th edition. Vlad would've been hardly justified within the mentality of game 2's design policy unless we remove Neferata. She could be added in a Nagash list but I was going by straight up what vampires were around the area of game 1. I guess Vlad could appear only in that case but there's still no place for him to hold that isn't under someone else and is his own.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 2,130
    neodeinos said:

    Meh, yet another von Carstein.

    Von Carsteins are Vampire Counts.

  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,555
    edited January 15
    SerPus said:

    neodeinos said:

    Meh, yet another von Carstein.

    Von Carsteins are Vampire Counts.

    Vampire Counts in 5th had Melkhior and in 6th Zacharias. I don't recall entirety of 5th but I'll search for it.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,395
    Fossoway said:

    What it should have been:
    - Manfred von Carstein
    - Vlad von Carstein + Isabella as Legendary Hero
    - Heinrich Kemmler
    - Red Duke or Mallobaude in Mousillon
    - Neferata
    - Walach Harkon

    No Ghorst, no Isabella taking the Empire FLC lord spot. Just the 6 main "Vampire Counts" lords/subfactions. Any other undead or vampire lord should have been left for a potential "Legions of Nagash" faction.

    While I basically agree, that is still leaving out Strigoi & Necrarch to give Blood Dragons & von Carsteins 2 LL each. Every Bloodline should get at least one playable LL. Same as every Skaven major Clan should get one LL, or like the WoC/DoC Chaos gods should be later represented with at least one LL each.

    ------Red Dox
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 2,130
    Crossil said:

    Zacharias was part of 6th edition.

    And was kicked out.
    Crossil said:

    Vlad would've been hardly justified

    He's the main character of the whole faction.

  • WaaaghCheifWaaaghCheif Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,201
    SerPus said:

    neodeinos said:

    Meh, yet another von Carstein.

    Von Carsteins are Vampire Counts.

    So are Necarchs, Lahmians, Strigois and Blood Dragons.
  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 5,750
    SerPus said:

    neodeinos said:

    Meh, yet another von Carstein.

    Von Carsteins are Vampire Counts.

    Yes. But we have enough of them, let's introduce the other bloodlines now. I could see Konrad being a legendary hero like Kroak though.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,555
    edited January 15
    SerPus said:

    Crossil said:

    Zacharias was part of 6th edition.

    And was kicked out.
    Crossil said:

    Vlad would've been hardly justified

    He's the main character of the whole faction.

    He was kicked out with a change in design. This hasn't stopped CA at all, as you can see with older units and lists getting dragged in.

    He was ignored in favor of Mannfred at release. Hardly the main character.

    Also, Neferata and Walach were also in 5th, I checked.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 2,130
    Crossil said:


    Vampire Counts in 5th had Melkhior and in 6th Zacharias.

    Not in 7th or 8th.


    So are Necarchs, Lahmians, Strigois and Blood Dragons.

    No. Why do you think they are called counts?


  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,555
    edited January 15
    SerPus said:

    Crossil said:


    Vampire Counts in 5th had Melkhior and in 6th Zacharias.

    Not in 7th or 8th.
    And when was Nakai? Fundamentally they are gonna go to older editions for material. That's why we have War Wagons from 4th, Bretonnian Squires from 5th, Eshin list from 6th. Vampires aren't divided, a substantial part of them is talked about in the Vampire Counts book as if they were part of this conglomerate.

    It's like saying other elector counties barring Marius' Averland aren't part of the Empire since all characters barring Marius are from Reikland. GW simply focused on Sylvania. Same as how Heinrich is the sole outsider.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • PaulicusPaulicus Registered Users Posts: 150
    SerPus said:

    Crossil said:


    Vampire Counts in 5th had Melkhior and in 6th Zacharias.

    Not in 7th or 8th.


    So are Necarchs, Lahmians, Strigois and Blood Dragons.

    No. Why do you think they are called counts?


    Don't they have some/all of those as Lord types now?
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,555
    Aight so 2 possible amendments could be done. Mallobaude for Red Duke and Neferate moved to Nagash's Legions with Vlad taking her place.

    But everything else stands.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 2,130
    edited January 15
    Crossil said:

    Fundamentally they are gonna go to older editions for material.

    And that's good, but the relevant content should come first.
    Paulicus said:


    Don't they have some/all of those as Lord types now?

    Yes, because Vampire Counts sometimes use vampires from other bloodlines.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,555
    SerPus said:

    Crossil said:

    Fundamentally they are gonna go to older editions for material.

    And that's good, but the relevant content should come first.
    Which is demonstrably not how CA operates so not how CA would've done it with their current mentality.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 2,130
    Crossil said:


    Which is demonstrably not how CA operates

    It pretty much is. They started by using 8th (or 7th) edition stuff at first and slowly moved deeper as there is less and less content remain.
    Crossil said:

    with their current mentality

    Which is?
  • WaaaghCheifWaaaghCheif Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,201


    This but unironically
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