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Forsaken are ... " forsaken" ?

ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,115Registered Users
edited January 23 in Balancing Discussions
Hi everyone. Today I want to speak about Forsaken, this shocktroopers of Chaos.
Reason why I want to discuss them is their unclear and somewhat redundant role in roster. Stat wise they are really solid but for me they are somewhat close silverhelms - good on paper but outshined by other options in roster. Here some points :
* mobility. They are pretty fast but Chaos is not Dwarfs there is number of faster and more effective units - chariots , cav and etc.
* Damage against " soft " targets - again, you have Chaos Warriors that pack shield + armor + better HP pool and model count - just your recipe for choppy frontline. Mobility ? See above.
* Staying power . Armor ? Not bad. Other stuff like MD or HP ? Meh
All in all, what do you think and what you can propose/criticize in this case ?

Comments

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,875Registered Users
    lots of people think they suck, but having a 46 speed infantry is really handy at times, and dogs, expensive cav, and chariots don't do the same things. Got waywatchers or slayers to catch and kill? These are your guys.

    the world would not end if they got a small stat boost. But fast infantry are a really nice thing to have in a roster so I don't think they are 'forsaken'. They are just never the mainline infantry they used to be used as. And frankly that's closer to the appropriate niche - use a few at the flanks instead of being able to just field a full 46 speed swarm without substantial downside.
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Posts: 579Registered Users
    Maybe I am wrong but I think they are good now. They just got 10 armor buff which puts them over that 80 threshhold where AP units are more effective against them than non AP.

    They are a good fast flanking unit that can do really good damage without having to invest as much as you would have to for knights. Also for those situations where you might want a non large unit to get into the back line (lots of anti large defending the back)
  • zer0zer0 Posts: 325Registered Users
    They are decent in a handful of matchups but are suffering a bit from the frenzy bug atm, fixing that should help them a bit.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,520Registered Users
    edited January 24
    Real glass cannon in form of just 20 def for a $750 inf is quite crazy, also with just 60 models lower than most inf. They r insanely dependant on armor due to extremely low def and hp. Any ap inf will do wonders on them and near guaranteed superior trade.

    Hugely dissapointed what they did to them, was a perfectly viable unit then they decided to destroy it for no apparent reasons.

    Dont think any1 even remembers what happened to them, this is what



    At least $150 worth of nerfs, wouldve been onpar with unshielded saurus for same price of $750, now just an underwhelming unit, wardancers dumpster them like some noob chaff, mind u similar speed with only $50 difference, the fight wasnt even frikking close, its like $750 traded for just $450 its stupid. Wardancers just too frikking good, no problem dealing with sauruses while still retaining those ridiculous speed
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  • ReymReym Posts: 508Registered Users
    edited January 24
    To add one thing on the change of forsaken between WH1 and WH2 you also got the fact that now fatigue nerfs MA way more than in game 1 and forsaken kinda need their MA in the long run.

    It's still a pretty decent glass canon unit, just that the player really needs to think twice before taking them and engaging them.
    Post edited by Reym on
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,875Registered Users
    Wardancers
    yst said:

    Real glass cannon in form of just 20 def for a $750 inf is quite crazy, also with just 60 models lower than most inf. They r insanely dependant on armor due to extremely low def and hp. Any ap inf will do wonders on them and near guaranteed superior trade.

    Hugely dissapointed what they did to them, was a perfectly viable unit then they decided to destroy it for no apparent reasons.

    Dont think any1 even remembers what happened to them, this is what



    At least $150 worth of nerfs, wouldve been onpar with unshielded saurus for same price of $750, now just an underwhelming unit, wardancers dumpster them like some noob chaff, mind u similar speed with only $50 difference, the fight wasnt even frikking close, its like $750 traded for just $450 its stupid. Wardancers just too frikking good, no problem dealing with sauruses while still retaining those ridiculous speed

    I"im not getting the same results wardancers vs forsaken. Even with shadows coil, the wardancers lose more often than they win.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,479Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    Wardancers

    yst said:

    Real glass cannon in form of just 20 def for a $750 inf is quite crazy, also with just 60 models lower than most inf. They r insanely dependant on armor due to extremely low def and hp. Any ap inf will do wonders on them and near guaranteed superior trade.

    Hugely dissapointed what they did to them, was a perfectly viable unit then they decided to destroy it for no apparent reasons.

    Dont think any1 even remembers what happened to them, this is what



    At least $150 worth of nerfs, wouldve been onpar with unshielded saurus for same price of $750, now just an underwhelming unit, wardancers dumpster them like some noob chaff, mind u similar speed with only $50 difference, the fight wasnt even frikking close, its like $750 traded for just $450 its stupid. Wardancers just too frikking good, no problem dealing with sauruses while still retaining those ridiculous speed

    I"im not getting the same results wardancers vs forsaken. Even with shadows coil, the wardancers lose more often than they win.
    Makes sense, wardancers are very squishy and forsaken hit like trucks against low armour low HP elves.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,875Registered Users
    Loupi_ said:

    eumaies said:

    Wardancers

    yst said:

    Real glass cannon in form of just 20 def for a $750 inf is quite crazy, also with just 60 models lower than most inf. They r insanely dependant on armor due to extremely low def and hp. Any ap inf will do wonders on them and near guaranteed superior trade.

    Hugely dissapointed what they did to them, was a perfectly viable unit then they decided to destroy it for no apparent reasons.

    Dont think any1 even remembers what happened to them, this is what



    At least $150 worth of nerfs, wouldve been onpar with unshielded saurus for same price of $750, now just an underwhelming unit, wardancers dumpster them like some noob chaff, mind u similar speed with only $50 difference, the fight wasnt even frikking close, its like $750 traded for just $450 its stupid. Wardancers just too frikking good, no problem dealing with sauruses while still retaining those ridiculous speed

    I"im not getting the same results wardancers vs forsaken. Even with shadows coil, the wardancers lose more often than they win.
    Makes sense, wardancers are very squishy and forsaken hit like trucks against low armour low HP elves.
    yeah i was surprised it was relatively close even. But the wardancers can help negate the charge bonus with the coil and have physical resist and a bonus vs inf.
  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 161Registered Users
    They are really meh
    Still.. they just dont hold as long as you would like to
    I dont need high speed flanking footmen since chaos has mounted horses
    Cav charge is very effective
    Sure their DPS is great but the MD and model count plus leadership drags them down
    CW with shields are simply safer pick in all cases
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,875Registered Users

    They are really meh
    Still.. they just dont hold as long as you would like to
    I dont need high speed flanking footmen since chaos has mounted horses
    Cav charge is very effective
    Sure their DPS is great but the MD and model count plus leadership drags them down
    CW with shields are simply safer pick in all cases

    CW shields are not a safer pick vs a kiting enemy like wood elves because they can't catch them. And the trouble with chaos is they don't have a medium-cost cavalry unit for flanking - they have very light cav that are easily countered by spears and easier to shoot up, while forsaken aren't.

    To flip it around, what's the point of wardancers? They don't fight better than forsaken and they are anti-infantry specialists and slower. They're better vs AP ranged units and that's about it.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,520Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    I"im not getting the same results wardancers vs forsaken. Even with shadows coil, the wardancers lose more often than they win.

    I know why, coz i made a mistake with wildwood lol. I was thinking afterwards hang on, cannot be right they should be similar not skewed so one sided.
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,875Registered Users
    yst said:

    eumaies said:

    I"im not getting the same results wardancers vs forsaken. Even with shadows coil, the wardancers lose more often than they win.

    I know why, coz i made a mistake with wildwood lol. I was thinking afterwards hang on, cannot be right they should be similar not skewed so one sided.
    ah, nice. Yeah wildwood makes more sense!
  • AsamuAsamu Posts: 633Registered Users
    edited January 24
    eumaies said:

    They are really meh
    Still.. they just dont hold as long as you would like to
    I dont need high speed flanking footmen since chaos has mounted horses
    Cav charge is very effective
    Sure their DPS is great but the MD and model count plus leadership drags them down
    CW with shields are simply safer pick in all cases

    CW shields are not a safer pick vs a kiting enemy like wood elves because they can't catch them. And the trouble with chaos is they don't have a medium-cost cavalry unit for flanking - they have very light cav that are easily countered by spears and easier to shoot up, while forsaken aren't.

    To flip it around, what's the point of wardancers? They don't fight better than forsaken and they are anti-infantry specialists and slower. They're better vs AP ranged units and that's about it.
    Depends on what units are kiting and the rest of your army really. A lot of kiting units (Cham skinks, pretty much any missile cav) can kill a unit of forsaken before it can reach them if you put them on skirmish mode, but will fail to kill a unit of Chaos warriors w/ shields despite using all of their ammunition.
    It takes waywatchers ~80% of their ammunition to route a unit of chaos warriors that's chasing them, it takes them only 4-5 volleys to route a unit of forsaken. Neither actually catches the waywatchers, but the forsaken route quickly, which gives the waywatchers more time to shoot at something else.

    There's also the problem of forsaken getting annihilated by cav charges because of their low melee defense and HP, and they don't have a way to avoid them.

    Generally, if you want something to catch a kiting unit, warhounds, knights, or marauder horsemasters/throwing axe cav are significantly better than forsaken.

    Forsaken are good/decent when you want to break a front line chaff wall (Ex: empire spears) quickly to get at ranged units that can't kite. Often, such units will hold for too long against chaos warriors, but will crumble quickly against forsaken. Even if forsaken trade less efficiently in melee in the long run, it can be worth having them just to get through to the missile units faster.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,875Registered Users
    Asamu said:

    eumaies said:

    They are really meh
    Still.. they just dont hold as long as you would like to
    I dont need high speed flanking footmen since chaos has mounted horses
    Cav charge is very effective
    Sure their DPS is great but the MD and model count plus leadership drags them down
    CW with shields are simply safer pick in all cases

    CW shields are not a safer pick vs a kiting enemy like wood elves because they can't catch them. And the trouble with chaos is they don't have a medium-cost cavalry unit for flanking - they have very light cav that are easily countered by spears and easier to shoot up, while forsaken aren't.

    To flip it around, what's the point of wardancers? They don't fight better than forsaken and they are anti-infantry specialists and slower. They're better vs AP ranged units and that's about it.
    Depends on what units are kiting and the rest of your army really. A lot of kiting units (Cham skinks, pretty much any missile cav) can kill a unit of forsaken before it can reach them if you put them on skirmish mode, but will fail to kill a unit of Chaos warriors w/ shields despite using all of their ammunition.
    It takes waywatchers ~80% of their ammunition to route a unit of chaos warriors that's chasing them, it takes them only 4-5 volleys to route a unit of forsaken. Neither actually catches the waywatchers, but the forsaken route quickly, which gives the waywatchers more time to shoot at something else.

    There's also the problem of forsaken getting annihilated by cav charges because of their low melee defense and HP, and they don't have a way to avoid them.

    Generally, if you want something to catch a kiting unit, warhounds, knights, or marauder horsemasters/throwing axe cav are significantly better than forsaken.

    Forsaken are good/decent when you want to break a front line chaff wall (Ex: empire spears) quickly to get at ranged units that can't kite. Often, such units will hold for too long against chaos warriors, but will crumble quickly against forsaken. Even if forsaken trade less efficiently in melee in the long run, it can be worth having them just to get through to the missile units faster.
    Good points. Yeah i'm always a fan of the "pick the right army and just endure" strats with chaos warriors and similar units - can work surprisingly well.

    In addition to the uses you mentioned vs chaff, forsaken are nice vs the hybrid ranged units like lothern sea guard, bugmans, waywatchers, that can just kill a light cav unit themselves.

    Feels like an ok niche. Would you say wardancers are any better than forsaken? If so, what do they bring to the table by comparison?
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,519Registered Users
    Forsaken are working as intended, you pay for speed in return for a bit low HP and low MD.

    Can't have a rush unit with only strong stats.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,391Registered Users
    I think forsakens issues are a combination of factors really. Theyre a fast flanking infantry with non ap punch. They wreck squishy, low cost infantry and thats...It basically.
    Compared to chaos warriors, horsemasters and chariots, all of which cost the exact same, they are just far less useful in the majority of circumstances. Hell, 2 marauders cost the same and are likely to be more useful most of the time.
    One can quibble about minute, unlikely situations where forsaken are better than the other units in their price bracket, but in practical situations they just don't cut the mustard.

    Tbh, I'm not entirely sure it's a stat issue either. It's not like forsaken are actually that horrid for the cost. One could argue for slight upward tweaks in stats, or slight downward tweaks in cost, but if compared to other 750 gold infantry they aren't exactly terrible, they're just lackluster in light of the rest of their roster.
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  • Meteor18Meteor18 Posts: 92Registered Users
    eumaies said:



    Good points. Yeah i'm always a fan of the "pick the right army and just endure" strats with chaos warriors and similar units - can work surprisingly well.

    In addition to the uses you mentioned vs chaff, forsaken are nice vs the hybrid ranged units like lothern sea guard, bugmans, waywatchers, that can just kill a light cav unit themselves.

    Feels like an ok niche. Would you say wardancers are any better than forsaken? If so, what do they bring to the table by comparison?

    Wardancers are protected by best archers in the game.
  • thoek92thoek92 Posts: 1Registered Users
    The tournament rules are fundamentally flawed and need to be reworked to be less restrictive. There is a middle ground between not kiting forever and always attacking.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,519Registered Users
    at the same time, going for a 20 min game where you heal kite and often use a cycle charging SEM is NOT balanced and too strong. If that’s the average use of SEMs, they would need to be FAR more expensive to account for their late-game behavior which in turn would make them unplayabale in general (to get to the late game you need to survive early game, which with drastically more expensive SEMs you wouldn’t), AND in the hands of “average players”.

    It seems a “lockdown” of units, or at the very least CA encouraging playing in a sportsmanlike fashion would be the way to go forward.

    There’s no denying that heal kiting late-game is a game-changer and too strong and when done as part of kite armies, fairly cheesy (because it denies the opponent participation).

    Some factions such as HE WE DE Empire Brets Chaos also tend to win with monsters and have gaps in the rosters elsewhere... so in my opinion monsters should stay as they are but their late-game prowess be toned down.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,479Registered Users
    thoek92 said:

    The tournament rules are fundamentally flawed and need to be reworked to be less restrictive. There is a middle ground between not kiting forever and always attacking.

    Green0 said:

    at the same time, going for a 20 min game where you heal kite and often use a cycle charging SEM is NOT balanced and too strong. If that’s the average use of SEMs, they would need to be FAR more expensive to account for their late-game behavior which in turn would make them unplayabale in general (to get to the late game you need to survive early game, which with drastically more expensive SEMs you wouldn’t), AND in the hands of “average players”.

    It seems a “lockdown” of units, or at the very least CA encouraging playing in a sportsmanlike fashion would be the way to go forward.

    There’s no denying that heal kiting late-game is a game-changer and too strong and when done as part of kite armies, fairly cheesy (because it denies the opponent participation).

    Some factions such as HE WE DE Empire Brets Chaos also tend to win with monsters and have gaps in the rosters elsewhere... so in my opinion monsters should stay as they are but their late-game prowess be toned down.

    how are these points related to forsaken?
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 3,062Registered Users
    They perform to their cost at their specific job. What more do you want?
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,220Registered Users
    edited February 5
    I use forsaken on certain match ups, vs vampires who have no range and low melee skill they shine. They are also useful vs greenskin and Bretonnia due to lack of squads using ap missiles. Not every unit is meant to be used everywhere.
    P. S. Demonspew are a must among with regular forsaken so the enemy MA gets reduced due to forsaken having low melee defence.
    Post edited by DandalusXVII on
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