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God you can just picture the chaos snakeman/marauder versions of these. It's a really cool aesthetic you don't see in games often.
I like these chaos cultists from Age of Sigmar Warcry. The "Splintered Fang". Mentions in the fluff that they "carry the blood of the daemonic coiling ones" - possible reference to old world Khuresh? Really cool models, although they don't fit a low fantasy style at all. The gladiatorial aesthetic doesn't fit either, they'd need to look more south-east asia inspired. But if you were to tone down these designs and rework them to fit they'd make great followers/occasional victims for the serpentine higher tier units.
I see that coming up with logical start positions for LL isn't anywhere near as awkward as I thought. These could work great.
1 top dog Blood Queen ruling from the racial capital of the Lost City of the Old Ones. Her campaign would be about unifying the other Blood Queens and Kings and expanding from there, similar to other racial leaders.
2 Melee lord is a named Blood King Starts Northwest edge of Khuresh at the Hinterlands Edge, poised to lead an assault either west into Ind, north into Cathay or northwest into the Lands of the Celestial Dragon Monks.
3 Krait Assassin character Would start across the Sea of Dread at the Temple Avenue of Gold in the Southlands, not to far from Kroq-Gar (needless to say campaign difficulty would be Very Hard).
4 monstrous lord that also uses magic Starts in exile at the north of the Mountains of Mourn, roughly Hissing Pit on the map provided (yes I like the name). Would face Ogre Kingdoms, Greenskins, Hobgoblins, Cathay and Norscans (Hung) relatively early in game.
Honestly the Naga are a fascinating race! I would pay good money for such a DLC.
It’s so sad that CA is limited in what they can add to the game.
I really don’t understand why GW never showed races like the Naga some love. Instead of Killing WHFB, they could’ve made them a new race together with Cathay and maybe even Tigermen of Ind.
Honestly the Naga are a fascinating race! I would pay good money for such a DLC.
It’s so sad that CA is limited in what they can add to the game.
I really don’t understand why GW never showed races like the Naga some love. Instead of Killing WHFB, they could’ve made them a new race together with Cathay and maybe even Tigermen of Ind.
I’m hoping the resurrection of WHFB allows further lore from the East.
Honestly the Naga are a fascinating race! I would pay good money for such a DLC.
It’s so sad that CA is limited in what they can add to the game.
I really don’t understand why GW never showed races like the Naga some love. Instead of Killing WHFB, they could’ve made them a new race together with Cathay and maybe even Tigermen of Ind.
I’m hoping the resurrection of WHFB allows further lore from the East.
this yes,
will it happen in game, many doubts, but i do want the far east.
Honestly the Naga are a fascinating race! I would pay good money for such a DLC.
It’s so sad that CA is limited in what they can add to the game.
I really don’t understand why GW never showed races like the Naga some love. Instead of Killing WHFB, they could’ve made them a new race together with Cathay and maybe even Tigermen of Ind.
I’m hoping the resurrection of WHFB allows further lore from the East.
I hope so. From my knowledge that new WHFB ed is still like 3-5 years away from now. But all the concepts are probably drawn on paper way earlier so CA could use them. We know that CA and GW work together all the time so there is definitely hope.
I personally don’t need every minor race in the Far East, but if I would get Tigermen, Cathay and the Naga I would be very happy.
Those are in my opinion the most interesting ones.
Honestly the Naga are a fascinating race! I would pay good money for such a DLC.
It’s so sad that CA is limited in what they can add to the game.
I really don’t understand why GW never showed races like the Naga some love. Instead of Killing WHFB, they could’ve made them a new race together with Cathay and maybe even Tigermen of Ind.
I’m hoping the resurrection of WHFB allows further lore from the East.
I hope so. From my knowledge that new WHFB ed is still like 3-5 years away from now. But all the concepts are probably drawn on paper way earlier so CA could use them. We know that CA and GW work together all the time so there is definitely hope.
I personally don’t need every minor race in the Far East, but if I would get Tigermen, Cathay and the Naga I would be very happy.
Those are in my opinion the most interesting ones.
Honestly the Naga are a fascinating race! I would pay good money for such a DLC.
It’s so sad that CA is limited in what they can add to the game.
I really don’t understand why GW never showed races like the Naga some love. Instead of Killing WHFB, they could’ve made them a new race together with Cathay and maybe even Tigermen of Ind.
I’m hoping the resurrection of WHFB allows further lore from the East.
I hope so. From my knowledge that new WHFB ed is still like 3-5 years away from now. But all the concepts are probably drawn on paper way earlier so CA could use them. We know that CA and GW work together all the time so there is definitely hope.
I personally don’t need every minor race in the Far East, but if I would get Tigermen, Cathay and the Naga I would be very happy.
Those are in my opinion the most interesting ones.
Regarding the Tigermen: They've been described in (I believe) the RPGs as revered by the humans of Ind, and they help the local people as much as they attack them. The RPGs even have a picture of one stalking an elephant, and he's has pretty fine clothes and weapons on him. So they're definitely a lot more civilized than typical Beastmen.
Personally, rather than make a Tigerman race, I'd make them part of a wider Ind roster as mid- to high-tier infantry plus a couple other units and a LL. As cool as they are, they aren't the main power on the subcontinent, and I'd like to see the humans of Ind explored just as much.
Honestly the Naga are a fascinating race! I would pay good money for such a DLC.
It’s so sad that CA is limited in what they can add to the game.
I really don’t understand why GW never showed races like the Naga some love. Instead of Killing WHFB, they could’ve made them a new race together with Cathay and maybe even Tigermen of Ind.
I’m hoping the resurrection of WHFB allows further lore from the East.
I hope so. From my knowledge that new WHFB ed is still like 3-5 years away from now. But all the concepts are probably drawn on paper way earlier so CA could use them. We know that CA and GW work together all the time so there is definitely hope.
I personally don’t need every minor race in the Far East, but if I would get Tigermen, Cathay and the Naga I would be very happy.
Those are in my opinion the most interesting ones.
This 3 to 5 year wait involves TT options doesn't it? I just don't understand why they don't start releasing novels ASAP as they'll be riding on the tide of TW and Vermintide.
This 3 to 5 year wait involves TT options doesn't it? I just don't understand why they don't start releasing novels ASAP as they'll be riding on the tide of TW and Vermintide.
They probably will. The Horus Heresy wargame, which this WHF reboot is explicitly compared to by Games Workshop, was preceded by it's own novel line. Said novel line has had 50+ entries, and an 8 volume finale is currently being published. If the warhammer fantasy reboot has anywhere near the amount of fiction I think that would be very promising for Khuresh, Ind, Cathay etc for Total War. Since new material would take care of the main problem in fleshing out DLC. Even if there are no new armies, fluff counts. That's mostly where the Vampire Coast came from.
I think the idea is good and I like the idea of Snakemen but better do an army that works very different than the Lizardmen. I see the Skaven it's the opposite of the Lizardmen in gameplay and basically everything.
I think the Snakemen should relay in poisoning to be effective, poisoning and hypnosis units and mages like cobra priests to use hipnosis to paralize units
No flaying units they should hate flying things like the eagles that prey on them so they also hate high elf's.
Infantry based in good mobility, not a very strong but good ambush capabilities,
Not a strong artillery in terms of damage but something that favors their gameplay style like poison spitters, and simple missile units like Brtetonia.
This army should be not very strong or with high morale, they should be kind of a week in terms of infantry or prolonged combat, but good at slowing the enemy flow and the flanking of the enemy, to counter atack with ambush units and win the flank.
As monster units goes just don't use any prehistoric animals, they are kind of the point of the Lizardmen, something more like gigantic centipedes with high mobility well armored and armor piecing, basilisks, and other demons from the South Asia or slave criatures like toadmen and goblins slaves, or other kind of weak beastmen that they use to move around their warmachines.
The idea is good but they should work different of the Lizardmen, not just Lizardmen with a skin of snakes everything in gameplay tactics and personally should feel different and twisted.
I think the idea is good and I like the idea of Snakemen but better do an army that works very different than the Lizardmen. I see the Skaven it's the opposite of the Lizardmen in gameplay and basically everything.
I think the Snakemen should relay in poisoning to be effective, poisoning and hypnosis units and mages like cobra priests to use hipnosis to paralize units
No flaying units they should hate flying things like the eagles that prey on them so they also hate high elf's.
Infantry based in good mobility, not a very strong but good ambush capabilities,
Not a strong artillery in terms of damage but something that favors their gameplay style like poison spitters, and simple missile units like Brtetonia.
This army should be not very strong or with high morale, they should be kind of a week in terms of infantry or prolonged combat, but good at slowing the enemy flow and the flanking of the enemy, to counter atack with ambush units and win the flank.
As monster units goes just don't use any prehistoric animals, they are kind of the point of the Lizardmen, something more like gigantic centipedes with high mobility well armored and armor piecing, basilisks, and other demons from the South Asia or slave criatures like toadmen and goblins slaves, or other kind of weak beastmen that they use to move around their warmachines.
The idea is good but they should work different of the Lizardmen, not just Lizardmen with a skin of snakes everything in gameplay tactics and personally should feel different and twisted.
I actually genuinely toyed with the idea of a massive centipede monster based on the Con Rit (Vietnamese centipede/sea serpent cryptid).
As for the current build I created I actually haven't taken the time to evaluate it's strengths and weaknesses so I should probably do that now.
Pros: - Lots of Stalk - Lots of Physical resistance - Good Missile resistance - Many good infantry options across the board - Above average MA - Lots of Poison and other debuffs - Strong Monsters and monstrous infantry - Several sources of healing
Mediocre Bits: - Limited flying options - Mediocre HP - Variable LD (low tier is lower than average, high tier higher than average) - Decent ranged infantry but limited options
Cons: - Only token cavalry, none fast - Only one artillery option (Pliodon War Barge) - No sources of magical damage outside of magic itself - Low average MD - Infantry vulnerable to Magic Damage
Snakemen should get several flying units, even because some of them should blessed with wings.
Threfore they lack completly cavalry, with only barge and or altar dragged by something (maybe slaves^^).
In my view thry are a infantry and monster based army with good air supply and lack of cavalry and artillery. They have should have strong infantry but yeah not like LM, quick hard hitters and only the highest tier with good armour.
Giant centipede is very great for them.
In air supply the have no big air monsters but, the flying serpents as tier 1 and 2 and some flying kraits/nagas (melee and archers?) with tier 3/4. Only flying monster is cockatrice. So their air units are completly diferent from LM.
They should even lack classical artillery, their mages should do it for them. Or some poison spitting monsters against infantry. Only wall breaking monsters.
I want to commend the OP on a very interesting and fleshed-out concept.
For some inspiration, I wanted to share these images from a now largely defunct TT game called Confrontation, from the bankrupt French miniature manufacturer Rackham. They were part of a faction called the Ophidians, they are gloriously serpentine, and while they might lack the Southeast Asian influences and some of the savagery of the Blood Naga perhaps, they are still absolutely worth taking a look at.
I want to commend the OP on a very interesting and fleshed-out concept.
For some inspiration, I wanted to share these images from a now largely defunct TT game called Confrontation, from the bankrupt French miniature manufacturer Rackham. They were part of a faction called the Ophidians, they are gloriously serpentine, and while they might lack the Southeast Asian influences and some of the savagery of the Blood Naga perhaps, they are still absolutely worth taking a look at.
Thanks for this! I like finding about new fantasies, especially when reptiles are involved. Time to read up!
I want to commend the OP on a very interesting and fleshed-out concept.
For some inspiration, I wanted to share these images from a now largely defunct TT game called Confrontation, from the bankrupt French miniature manufacturer Rackham. They were part of a faction called the Ophidians, they are gloriously serpentine, and while they might lack the Southeast Asian influences and some of the savagery of the Blood Naga perhaps, they are still absolutely worth taking a look at.
IMAGES
Between these and the OP post.. I really wish CA and GW would team up to flesh out a proper roster for Khuresh now lol. Excellent models though, thanks for sharing.
Here is my take on designing the Naga: (Note: most likely, they have done the designs for TWW3 already, but I wanted to bring my ideas down regardless.)
First, start to listen to some dark indonesian Gamelan music.This sets up the theme. Given their location corresponding to earths south east asia and indonesia, let's get some design from there. We take Khmer architecture like Angkor Wat, deep in jungles, where dark unspoken rites are done by a magical race. Clad in the fashion of Khmer, wearing brazen armors and wearing Kris swords, those creatures have the skin and faces of snakes. Some are bipedal, some have the lower body of a snake. They are quick, silent and deadly, and lead by horrific yet beautiful creatures with multiple arms, wings and even several heads.
Picture showing Khmer architecture.
Basic history: The Naga were originally a bred of lizardmen, embedded in their society, working mostly as assassins, mages and coordinators of the Skink. They were smarter and more cunning than other breds, save the Slann, and they desired more. Ultimatively, this had to result in a Paradise Lost like scenario, and after a civil war, they fled from Lustria to an old lizardmen stronghold in Khuresh, originally build by the Old Ones. Centuries later, they faced a severe problem. Just like other lizardmen, they were created in Spawnings. However, for this, a special ingredient is required, of which they were running out. So far, they had used reserves they brought with them, but the recipe to create it was kept secret by the Slann. The Naga faced extinction. Having become desperate, they were encountered by the Druchii from the Cult of Pleasure, and they forged a sort of shaky alliance. In exchange for knowledge and wealth, the Druchii told them some of their secrets. In detail, they learned some abilities in utilizing True Dhar, which they craved as they never managed to use Qhaysh, but in the end, they never mastered Dhar as the Druchii have. Also, a fundamental change came to the Naga society, which was the introduction of the deity Khala, who might be an aspect of Khaine. The Naga developed a grand ritual using this newfound deity. They captured hundreds of humans from Ind which they sacrifized to Khala, ripping the souls out of their bodies using Dhar. Then, they sacrificed themselves. From that, a new kind of Naga rose. A kind which had human genders. Society was restructured, and they overtook a lot of concepts from the Cult of Pleasure, with a female ruling case, the Blood Queens. However, they also strife to imitate the lizardmen, while mixing in designs from Ind. The Naga like to stay on their own, keeping their strongholds, and sometimes abduct other creatures for their rituals. However, in the recent times, they noticed portents of things to come.
Metamorphosis: Naga can change their body, in a process that is part nature, part will and part magic. They do so in a skin shedding process, emerging as a different creature. They start their life by a female Naga giving birth to a whole swarm of dozens of creatures looking pretty much like snakes, which then slither into the jungle swamps, living the first years as a beast. With puberty comes their first metamorphosis, in which they get arms and legs, and also sentience. Their appearance is somewhat between that of a Skink and that of a Saurus, but with the face of a serpent. They return to the cities and are adopted in a lower house. In their society, membership to a house equals rank, and to rise in rank, they have to be adopted by a higher house. A part of this is often metamorphosis. Most higher houses require the lower body to be that of a snake, and to increase in size. Especially mystic houses require a cobra metamorphosis, in which they develop the frills of a cobra, and also the ability to spit poison. For the highest houses, they metamorphose into creatures with several arms, four or even six, or they develop wings or snake-hair like appendages (the Kanya Naga). In the priest caste of Khala, some have several heads, but this is rare, and those creatures become *weird*.
Picture of a Kanya Naga. Wouldn't use the human face, of course.
Atavism: Another line of metamorphosis is that of the atavists. This faction of Naga discards the houses and instead embraces their beast like aspects, regressing to one. They enlarge their claws and fangs and strenghten their poisons. Some take on cobra aspects, focusing on spitting poison. But furthermore, they manage to transform into large beasts. Some become giant snakes (the Phaya Naga), with only a part of their sentience being kept. But one of the epitome of this is becoming a Hydra, totally giving in to beasthood. This is how Hydras were created in the first place, and a part of their dealings with the Druchii. (Note: this lacks explanation why there are Hydras in the Old World.) As atavists still need a magical component for the higher metamorphosis, there are mystics overseeing their process.
A Phaya Naga.
Architecture: Aside from the Khmer style for the bigger structures, resembling Angkor Wat, the smaller temporary buildings are more after Malaysian fashion, in particular the Rumah Gadang style.
Rumah Gadang palace.
Units: Naga have regular infantry made out of swordsmen (wearing the Kris), spearmen and archers. They wear Khmer style armor with brazen features (another source of inspiration would be Majapahit soldiers). One kind of irregulars are the cobra-like, which spit poison before they charge, somewhat comparable to roman legionaries throwing javelins. Another line are the atavist units, starting with troops using claws and fangs, to dedicated cobra-like troops who spit, arriving at war-beasts like the Phaya Naga and the Hydras. There is also a winged unit. Higher ranks of warriors usually master a long version of the kris, a glaive (Arbir) or dual-wielding the kris. This culminates in multi-armed Naga wielding four or even six swords (probably a Hero and/or Lord). Then there are the mystics. The line starts with spiritual warriors wearing enchanted weapons that do spirit damage, and from that line come the spell-casting Heroes and Lords. Hero level units cast regular Aethyr like Azyr, Ghyran or Shyish, while a Lord level unit might be able to use Dhar (if that is not to be kept Druchii unique). Mystics follow different orders corresponding to their respective Wind, with the priests of Khala on top. Another line is that of scouts and assassins, with skirmishing units and an assassin Hero. On the whole, Naga units tend to be fast, accurate, acceptably armored, but not that resilient. Naga infantry has a faster walking speed than most other infantry.
Question of Cavalry: I haven't added cavalry yet, and I want to emphasize that there are several considerations in which I am torn. Possibility 1: They ride some native species, possibly jaguars (fast light skirmisher cavalry), black jaguars (assassin line version) and war elephants. War elephants might carry ballistas, being their primary siege weapon. Possibility 2: They have some lizardmen mounts, like Cold Ones and Teradons, but not the bigger dinosaurs. I don't like the dinosaur theme for them, though. Possibily Salamanders. Possibility 3: Some new kind of giant lizard mounts, like crocodiles or turtles, maybe sea serpents. Possibility 4: Catoblepas, or Gorgon Bulls. Bull like creatures with scales, breathing poison. Would be very heavy slow cavalry, but don't really fit the overall style of being agile.
Other ideas: One thing I thought of were Yaksa auxiliaries, which are ogre-sized monsters wielding maces. Probably won't fit well in, though. The Naga might have been a vital part of the Great Plan, and the secession a reason why things gotten out of hands. Embedded in lizardmen troops, they might have been an ideal counter to Skaven. Also thought about including firearms, using the indonesian designs. I find the idea of Naga troops with blunderbusses interesting, and likewise them having war elephants with swivel guns. Doesn't really fit into the overall concept. A part of what they have access to should also be fitting to what Ind and Cathay have.
The Ruinous Powers: Naga do not directly serve Chaos. They are, however, evil, and they use some powers of Chaos, pretty much like the Druchii or the vampires do. My basic reason here is that I like a certain style, which is silent, beautiful but deadly jungles with forbidden temples. Unbound Chaos does not fit to that. There can be, however, a faction which does serve Chaos, spreading corruption. This might be a schism amongst Khala worshippers, who essentially serve Khorne (although other Chaos Gods also fit). They are opposing the other factions, somewhat like Arkhan does with the Tomb Kings. I haven't included actual vampirism at all. One could, but as I haven't designed it like this, I'll skip it. In any case, I'd find hordes of skeletons or the like unfitting, if anything, I'd see a few Lords and Heroes being vampires. The Beastmen in Khuresh are drawn to sanctuaries of Khala, in which Chaos is strong. They are still enemies. The Ruinous Powers might want to use them to dispose of the factions opposing them.
Other Relations: Lizardmen: Anathema, arch-enemies. High elves: are wary of the Naga. One reason for their outposts in Khuresh is to monitor them. Ind: They noted the abductions, but they are not full fledged enemies. Trade is not ruled out. Cathay: No bad blood, but no alliance either. Trade is possible.
Just realized that this is actually the second page of a thread, and begun to read the first one. I want to address several of the posts there, and what ideas I really like and would overtake into my concept.
First of all, there is the initial collection of canon sources by Wyvax. It is quite informative and I like that we have all such information collected at one place. But let me be very clear here: One should not let the small amount of information that GW dropped then and there block creative process. GW themselves changed things in the past, and we should not think of stuff like that at an absolute canon. Of course, it is still some baseline one can follow. What I'd do is to see it as the rumors that travellers heard about the region, some of which might be true, some not at all and some being exxagerated. Just wanted to emphasize this.
But I think that at least to Wyvax this was clear, as for his concept, he dropped the soul trade parts. All in all I think it might be impossible to create a *good* conception while fulfilling all of the canon source stuff.
Wyvax unit roster: While he doesn't do the "magic race" stuff that I did, there are some parts I really like. But right from the start, I would drop the concept of "Druchii mirror High Elves, Naga mirror Lizardmen *in units*". Thing is, the Druchii are in nature not different to High Elves, the Naga however are. But just saying that this should not dictate. What Wyvax did with the basic infantry roster is absolutely solid and should work well, like it.
I really love the monstrous units Wyvax introduced. Varanids are very stylish, Jaculi are stylish. I also like the line beginning with Cockatrices. One thing I'd do here however is to consider making new creatures based on those concepts, instead of taking over the preexisting WH creatures. I think their already exitisting descriptions don't fit in well. Have there being a genus of magical creatures which have those properties of causing fear, breathing poison, and possibly the earth affinity (stone turning gaze) that ties the real world mythologies of Cockatrices, Basilisks, Gorgons and the Gorgon Bull (Catoplebas) together, even though we need to be aware that we then go for a more greek/european vibe.
A weak point of Wyvax in my eyes is the weak emphasis on magic, especially in regard of the Blood Queen concept. I think if I was to work on his concept, I'd actually introduce vampirism, maybe with something that Neferata gave the Naga the elixir about the same time when she created the Jade-Blooded in Cathay. Thing is, I don't see the Blood Queens as primitive casters akin to Greenskin shamans. The rest of the roster looks quite savage and doesn't scream culture to me, so I'd say that mages like the elves or humans have don't really fit. The intuitive magic that a vampire is given access to, however, does.
As for Wyvax question: "Do you think it fits in with Warhammer, if not what would you change, or is it all just a piece of garbage fanfiction?" I think it fits very very well. I still prefer my own concept as I prefer the concept of a magic and mysterious race over creatures of chaos, but I can't deny that Wyvax concept is very well made, and absolutely in the style of Warhammer. Unlike the blowing-up-the-planet stuff that I can't really understand. Not sure why they are giving up their old stuff. The new stuff would easilywork as a universe on it's own, just like WH40k is different from WH and yet similar. Don't understand why GW never developed the east either.
In regards of what I'd use for my concept:
The Jaculus inspired me somewhat. I'd make it a feathery creature, maybe a serpentine paradise bird, but more of an animal. The part about "poisonous fell bats" I'd overtake instantly. I see their role as melee skirmishers and scouts, quite weak but exactly what you need to take out that siege engine in the back. The line starting with the cockatrice I'd make a line of a single species in different sizes and races. The skirmisher creature from above would probably be their smallest kind. Then there'd be a slightly larger creature which breathes poison all around it which also flies (based on the cockatrice) and a horse sized creature which doesn't fly (based on the basilisk). Their appearance would be comparable in any case, without things like the several pairs of legs. All in all, in combat role, they'd be somewhat comparable to the feral units of the vampire counts, Fell Bats, Vargheists and Varghulfs, with additional poison aura. Given that their concept seems to be quite related to the Naga, I'd consider them to be either degenerated Naga or a creature originally created along with the Naga by the Old Ones. Because of the likeness to the concept of the feathery serpent from mesoamerican mythology I'd say that some of those creatures also live in Lustria, probably untamable by the lizardmen, with only the Naga being close enough in nature to have a connection with them.
With the Varanid, I have some problems in overtaking. My roster is somewhat based on agile tactics, but monitor lizards appear to me more like heavy cavalry. On the other hand, I really like their concept. In my roster, I use jaguars, and that choice was due to those being fast and agile, but replacing them by something more scaly would be quite appropriate. Huh, dunno. Another option I consider is having some of my atavist Naga as mounts, somewhat looking like Necropolis Knights in composition.
Ad Draxynnic: I am somewhat opposed to the elf mutation idea. I think the biggest reason is that this sounds too much like Warcraft Naga. But I am clad that Draxynnic brought Dechala and Bloodwrack Medusae to my attention. Both look very Naga-like. The Bloodwrack Medusae are most interesting to me, because they totally fit with my narrative of the Cult of Pleasure being involved with the Naga. Perfectly fits to my idea of the Hydras being taken over from the Naga. Note that the backstory about Sorceresses of Ghrond is something that *is said*, as in *might totally be not the case*. Aside from regular high tier Naga, given my Naga background story, another possibility is that they are the result of different experiments with Dhar manipulating souls, maybe what happens when this is done with a Druchii instead of a human (all in all, I don't see Morathi having problems in sacrifizing her own people).
I like Abmongs idea of connecting them to the Amazons. Not going to explore that further, though, different direction. I think if I'd redesign the whole world, I'd make a distinction between Gorgons (greek themed, based on poison aura) and Naga (indonesian themed, based on magic), maybe one original species which diverged at some point.
I also like Draculasaurus mentioning the Urumi and the Chakram. Would fit in nicely in my roster. As the Urumi is a somewhat special weapon, I think I'd make them something a Hero tier unit would wear, or at least high tier.
Most of xBlood_Ravens ideas would be easy to incorporate into my roster given my concept of metamorphosis. The ideas are nice. In the end, I'd base what to take over on considerations of army balance.
I think thematically, those should be a thing. This holds for pretty much any concept of Naga, including that of Wyvax and that of mine. Basically, both become a resource, and you acquire them by battles and by conquering cities (with razing and sacking resulting in more). They are the main resources spend on things such as rites and magic item creation. Different things require different fractions of blood and soul. After a battle, you decide whether you want more blood or more souls. Another way to obtain them is the Abduction stance for armies, which essentially functions like raiding, just that you get that resource instead of money.
In my concept, they could also be used in order to upgrade units, being required to trigger Metamorphosis. This would actually change the appearance of the troops in question, like making them bigger, giving them frills, et cetera. It might also be a resource required to unlock Lords and Heros. Maybe there is one basic type of both which requires only money, but especially types with wings or multiple arms require the resources. And it might be even required to hire higher tier units, like winged troops.
Optional: blood and soul corruption.
One interesting option would be that spending those resources in some ways might cause unwanted corruption, either in all regions if spend globally (a global ritual) or in the current region if spend locally. Of course, one could use this by going into an enemy region and then upgrade ones units, causing an order debuff there, and then attack when the garrison is weakened from a rebell attack, although of course then you'd conquer a tainted region.
There might be buildings which allow usage without causing corruption, and also buildings which make doing so more effective.
One possible design would be that blood causes corruption where it is used, while souls cause corruption where they are harvested, as this is where the required Dhar magic is cast.
Optional: appeasing the Ruinous Powers
This is a somewhat unprocessed idea that I just wanted to mention. Basically, the Ruinous Powers would have a particular interest, or the veil to the Immaterium might be weak in Khuresh. In any case, the Naga got a problem with the Chaos Gods. In order to solve it, they feed them souls, appeasing them temporarily. Alternatively, in my concept, the souls might be fed to Khala, who demands those. If she is appeased, she might reward you, but if you don't feed her, horrible things might happen.
Optional: corruption as tactical weapon
One could use the resources in order to purposefully create corruption in a remote place as a sort of weapon, like a corruption nuke. Note that one could do this especially in the enemies region you *don't* want to invade, at least right now. As for mechanics, I see this happening over several turns, with the enemy being able to stop it somehow. It might look somewhat like a Vortex ritual, with some cities being the source. It could allow for the enemy to spend money on intervention armies. Not sure if this fits here, though. Might be rather something to give to the Chaos armies themselves, or to factions such as the Skaven.
I like everyones ideas. Everyone agrees that the Naga should have their origins with the Lizardmen. Either created intentionally flawed or corrupted by chaos. Personally, I prefer them not being part of the Great Plan. That they’re servants of a minor Chaos entity. Similar to how the Chaos Dwarfs are with Hashut, but instead of being corrupted over a long period of time slowly, they were created by accident. We know the Lost Temple City of the Old Ones is in Khuresh, and it makes sense for that to be their Capital. That being said, all the Temple Cities server/served a purpose of the Old Ones. I prepose that the Lost Temple City’s purpose was the study of the winds of Magic and development a way to harness Chaos.
My Origins of the Naga:
Before the Great Catastrophe, the Old Ones were working on a prototype called “Sotek.” This was not The Sotek that the Skink’s would will into existence during the war of the rat and the serpent, but does share its originals as part of the Old Ones great plan. Before the Old Ones could either finish this Entity for its intended purpose or scrap it as a failure, the Polar Gateways Collapsed and flooded the world with Chaos. While this climatic battle was taking place and with new found strength, the Not-Sotek breach containment. Taking in everything it came into contact with and was “denied” by the Old Ones as it ran rampant through the Temple City. All it new was that it was meant to be worshipped and it wanted everything the Old Ones possessed for itself. Eventually finding its way to the Spawning Pools, it dipped its fangs into each and its venom turned the Pools blood Red. After the Great Vortex stopped chaos, The Lizardmen and their Slann masters that had survived the Catastrophe found themselves cut off from the other Temple Cities and surrounded by a new unknown enemy. Twisted demonic serpentine parodies of themselves. Bigger than a Saurus, quick as Skinks, and some even possessing an extra pairs of arms. What the Naga lacked in Cold Blooded Cunning or magic, they made up for in voracity, venom, and numbers. Plus they would just take the weapons off dead Lizardmen. While the Lizardmen fought to the very end, slowly but surly they were defeated and what remained of their Temple Cities were destroyed in the conflict. Now in full control of the area, the Not-Sotek intended to continue spreading its influence and eventually across the entire world. Unfortunately for it, the Naga proved too beastial and disinterested in building a civilization or in world domination. The Naga were unable to maintain their own spawning pools and made for poor followers. Sure they could kill and make sacrifices to Not-Sotek, but they couldn’t make use of what remained of the more advanced Old Ones tech and they weren’t much interesting beyond their next meal. Breaking up into smaller warbands and with no immediate foes to fight, most simply went into hibernation. These Dormant Naga would take on the appearance of large menacing Statues that litter the Hinterlands. Try as It might, Not-Sotek simply didn’t yet have the power to reawaken and command them in its current state. It wouldn’t be until centuries later when the first human tribes began to settle the region that an new opportunity presented itself. After observing them for a time and taking the name of Nagendra(yes from Warcry), it presented itself to the humans as a benevolent goddess(these humans are matriarchal), only asking for worship and sacrifices in return. Soon enough the first Serpent Cults started to take shape and would spread like a slithering bloody tide. Installing the more powerful magic users as their spiritual leaders. These human worshippers would grown in numbers, taking to rebuilding the Lost Temple City in devotion to Nagendra. Next they were tasked with gaining the favor of the “Coiled Ones.” For their efforts were rewarded with various snake mutations and being lead to “sacred” artifacts, but in reality these were forgotten old one devices. These devices are unpredictable, possibly broken, but after many “unworthy” cultists they would learn to use these artifacts to deadly effect. As the Cult grew and coiled its way every facet of Khureshi society, the more powerful Nagendra became. Eventually powerful enough to reawaken the dormant Naga and her new servants were be able to command them using Blood Magic Rituals. A mix of human cultists and mutated “Snakemen” devotees(a new type of Beastmen) would make up the core of their forces, infantry and light ranged units. They’d also be able to use cavalry. My idea is either using a kind of aquatic quadruped drake/reptile or a limbless flying serpent created using flesh magic or both. Naga are the Warlord and heavy shock troops. The High Priestesses of the Serpent Cults are the magic users and keep the Naga in line. The ones that command the largest number of Naga, which requires a lot of daily sacrifices, have earn the title of “Blood Naga Queens.” Not-Sotek, turned Nagendra, goes from just an Old Ones’ science experiment to the new Chaos God of Envy and Toxins. Slowly spreading its own brand of Chaos Corruption to every corner of the Far East. Leaving rivers of tainted Blood and toxic Souls in its wake.
The End.
As a side note, I liked the idea of Neferata having interacted with them. It would be in character for her trying to gain influence. That being said, I think the Blood Naga Queens shouldn’t be Vampires, as that would imply Undead units. However, I think they should have had some sort of influence upon them. Maybe it was because of Llamians that the original human tribes were Matriarchal, and Not-Sotek simply took advantage of this for its own purposes. Maybe Nagendra saw Vampirism as a potential weapon to use against other Chaos Factions. Since the humans cultists see becoming a “Snakemen” as a great blessing, it’s not impossible that they could have a special vampiric unit type. However used sparing, like a blood ritual/elixir they use empower Naga Warriors, but are not able to pass the curse on to others. I took a lot of influence from Conan the Barbarian’s Serpent-Men and the Cult of Sett.
I have a few ideas to make the Blood Nagas stand out from the Lizardmen. One posted before is to have monstrous units that aren’t dinosaurs or too many snakes. Maybe have a giant serpent with two heads, so it’s not just another Hydra, and a flying variety as a mount for a hero and Legendary Lord to ride into battle.
What would really make them stand out would be some carnivorous and poisonous giant flora. Since Khureshi Society revolves around blood, capturing enemies would be a priority. Maybe using a type of living artillery seed launcher that tangles up enemies with a slowing mechanic? Squads that spend too much time in areas where these vines spread find themselves as easy targets for even the slowest of Snakemen units.
In addition to an Mobile Sacrificial Alter for boosting Spells, they could have a type of platform that’s used to transports a big Corpse Flower looking thing that spreads spores on the battlefield that either weaken enemy units or powers up friendly units.
In addition to the big units, the infantry or lords could have access to a kind of living whip. Like a vine with fangs that has a poison effect. Things like this would really make them stand apart from other armies. To help visually, as opposed to the Wood Elves having Treekin with bark armor, Snakemen would have lightly armored blood hungry Piranha plants capable of regenerating HP with enough time and enough enemies to feed off of.
Who to say that only humans could be part of the Serpent Cults? Maybe after a lengthy period in the cobra pit, some captured Elves would prefer to join them over being sacrificed. For those who know the lore behind the Splintered Fang in Warcry, they’re one of the few chaos warbands that has at least one elf member. I don’t see why that would be lore unfriendly, and it would gives them another explanation for their powerful magic units and access to Blood Ritual Magics or their own unique brand of Vampirism.
I like the your concept of the faction being human cultists with Naga devotees. Especially since something like that isn't done so far. Another variant of this would be a ruler class made out of Snakemen and everything else being human serfs, with a clear difference in rights. Fits somewhat to real world Naga being essentially deities. Has a drawback, though, which is that if humans make out most of their units, we'd have less diversity in actual snakemen units. On the other hand, it might be more relatable for the human players. Human factions tend to be more liked for that reason I heard.
The closest thing of humans being led by non-humans so far are the sylvanian archers and gunners that the Vampire Counts have access to, and those are only auxiliaries. Makes me think about a faction which has Lahmia vampires as overlords but hosts made mostly of humans. Maybe no raised dead at all. I mean, after all, vampires would need to have at least some human levies for their blood, right?
As for you talking about Blood Queens being vampires would imply undead hordes, why? Vampires seem to have an affinity towards necromancy, but would any of them automatically be able to do so by Warhammer lore? And couldn't there be no line that has no innate ability to raise the dead? Actually asking here.
I also like those ideas of weaponized plants. Not sure if that fits to the concepts of Naga in this thread so far, though. Thing is, the plants are a very strong flavor, which bears the risk to dominate other flavors. But in any case sounds like something I'd want to see. One could extend that concept a lot. Make it a whole new faction, maybe situated on that big island east to Khuresh and south of Nippon. One possibility would even to make this a Dryad faction (without wood elves), but the concept of humans or snakemen or whoever utilizing the plants closer to your original concept sounds very enticizing as it is. One time, I played with the concept of Dryads in unusual bodies. Like maybe a crawling carpet of vines, mangrove treemen et cetera. Maybe even a Chaos tainted version of Dryads.
But I have one large critisms of your background story: That the Snakemen were brought into existance by a proto-Sotek created by the Old Ones. Basiclly all in does in the end is making the origin of the real Sotek more confusing. When the Old Ones experimented with a prototype and were forced to flee, before they could finish this prototype, how did the real one came into existance, e.g.? Currently it is often indicated that Tehenuain created Sotek by creating his cult and performing sacrifices in his name, after he found a prophecy containing him on a sacred plaque. A proto-Sotek created directly by the Old Ones only makes it more confusing and less stream-lined. And functionally the existance of this proto sotek does nothing more, what e.g. a greater demon or another minor chaos god akin to Hashut or the Great Horned Rat couldn't have done too, e.g. by corrutping the spawning pools. If Nagendra would have been just a demon or minor chaos god, he would not have confusing implications for the real sotek, but probably still be able to do everything you mentioned.
Otherwise I like the idea of a human civilisation based around the Snakemen of Khuresh. I would still prefer a snakemen society, but I can see potenial in a more southeastasian influenced human faction with snakemen as their leaders or special units. And I really like your ideas about using plants as weapons. It is fitting for a jungle based civilization to use such things.
--- Origin --- Were a breed of Lizardmen that ranked second right after the Slann. Intelligent, magically adept and headstrong. Didn't wanted to be second in command, and desired Qhaysh, which ultimatively led to a rebellion. Those in Lustria were slain, but those in Khuresh (which was originally a major stronghold of the Lizardmen) had ideal terrain (lots of water in wide rivers and jungle bogs) to use to their advantage, driving the Slann and their servants out of that area. Without the Slann, their breeding was imperfect, and their numbers declined. They struck a pact with the Dark Elves, learning Dhar and developing their own rituals, in which they use blood and souls to improve their breeding, and furthermore allowing them to metamorphosize into stronger forms. Those could be reached before (and the Coatl are in fact just that), but required a lot of effort and, more important, humility (basically a mechanism the Old Ones installed to make sure those who transform are of the right mind). The Dhar variant also results in them getting some humanoid traits in some forms, especially more human-like faces and sexes, by taking over properties of the victims soul. In return, the Dark Elves acquired Hydras and Bloodwreck Medusae.
Basic religion based on three deities, the Svarbhanu, each associated with a Lore: Kali (Death), Rahu (Heavens), Ketu (Life) The priesthood of Kali focuses on assassination and the necessary Dhar rituals to extract souls, that of Rahu are the scholars and architects of the Naga, and that of Ketu are atavists, caretakers of forests, medicine and breeding. The society is made up of commoners, those priesthoods and nobles (which govern).
Naga: The basic race, encompasses all of the below except for some beasts. Also means the default Naga who hasn't used metamorphosis, or only a little bit, and is bipedal with a large tail. About the size of a human. Kanya: A Naga who has metamorphosized quite a bit, is notably bigger than a human and instead of legs slithers on a massive tail. Phaya: A Naga who fully methamorphosized into a giant snake-like creature. Cobra: A special kind of default Naga that has a wide neck and can spit poison.
--- Standard Rules ---
- Naga are highly mobile and agile. Basic Naga are already faster than a human, and Kanya are nearly as quick as cavalry. - All Naga are aquatic. - All Naga have a venomous bite. It can be used instead of the weapons they wear. (Trivial to do in the tabletop, but no idea what this means for Total War: Warhammer.) - All Naga have at least a small amount of Natural Armor. - Naga have access to basic mettalurgy, allowing them to create proper simple metal armor. In that regard, they are clearly ahead of Lizardmen, but quite behind the Empire. Naga armor often features intricate designs and a decorative layer of brass. - Cobras can spit poison. This is considered to be a missile attack which can be used despite wearing other weapons and is subject to Quick to Fire. It is usually used similar to how a roman Hastatus throws his javelin before entering melee. - All Naga and their beasts are immune to the venom of each other. - Nobles, Heroes, Lords and everything of position is a Kanya. - Kanyas can't mount other creatures, but can develop such things as wings or multiple arms. - Naga units are used to perfectly move in dense jungles. Thus, Naga cavalry and flyers do not consider forest terrain as dangerous terrain when marching, charging, overruning, taking off or landing. (In terms of the tabletop - not sure what this means for Total War.) - In terms of Total War, Naga units can move quicker through jungles and watery terrain (Marsh, River, Swamp). As a special stance, Naga armies can submerge in watery terrain, reducing the movement speed but becoming extremely hard to spot (including a high ambush chance).
--- Blood and Souls ---
The ritual that substituted their breeding was that they used human souls to acquire some human properties. The most important one was that they acquired sexes, including being able to reproduce just like a human, instead of using breeding pools like Lizardmen. However, the process was incomplete. A pregnant Naga requires the blood of a human (or a humanoid race, like a dwarf) in order to give birth - otherwise it will result in a stillbirth. In order to metamorphosize, they additionally need souls. This holds especially for becoming a Kanya or a Phaya, but also to develop such things as sharp claws, better natural armor, sprouting wings et cetera. Given that they learned Dhar from the Dark Elves, they have access to basic blood magic. They have little use for such things as rejuvenating themselves by such means, as transformation provides a better mean for longevity, but they make use of blood magic especially when it comes to crafting magic items and casting rituals.
For Total War, they will have to acquire the blood and soul resources by defeating armies, conquering cities and raiding. In order to have normal city growth, blood has to present. Otherwise it is slowed (it is assumed that they have some blood stored). While by the description it has to be humanoid blood, for reasons of simplicity I'd relax that. Although one could explicitely state that attacking creatures without blood - especially the undead - doesn't yield any blood. Another possibility is to have a building that represents a flock of humanoids for the purpose of harvesting blood, like "Sacrificial Stables". Souls would have to be paid when unit types other than standard infantry and mounts are being recruited.
Using a high amount of those resources in a short period of time might cause Chaos Corruption due to the usage of Dhar involved (to which Naga are not immune at all).
--- Basic Infantry ----
Naga Infantry: By standard wear a Kris, a buckler and light armor. Can be equipped with spears. Naga Archers: Given the natural armor and the close combat ability of all Naga, Naga archers are also able melee fighters, compared to archers from other races. A rear charge from enemy cavalry is still something to avoid. Naga Skirmishers: Usually equipped with a Kris, a light bow or javelins.
Cobra Infantry, Cobra Skirmishers: Close to their standard Naga counterparts, and mostly about spitting poison. Regular infantry will do so during a charge. Skirmishers might focus on this kind of attack, alternating spitting poison and using range weapons.
Kanya Infantry: Elite infantry. usually use Arbirs (halberds), a great Kris (great weapon) or two Krises. Kanya Greatbow: Armed with giant bows that might be closer to a bolt thrower than a regular bow, although slightly smaller than that of an Ushabti.
--- Religious Infantry ---
Disciples of Ketu: Naga atavists, wear no armor, use claws enhanced by metamorphosis, have improved natural armor, and are hard to spot in foliage. Disciples of Rahu: Naga with a kris that do magic damage. Disciples of Kali: Naga with two poisoned krises. Hidden, Ambusher.
Dedicated of Ketu: Kanya atavists. Excellent against infantry. Dedicated of Rahu: Kanya with two krises that does magic damage. Dedicated of Kali: Kanya with two poisoned krises, Hidden, Ambusher, very fast attacks.
--- Cavalry and ground-based Monsters ----
Feathered One: Related to Cold Ones, but lighter and faster. Are covered in multi-colored feathers. Mounted by a Naga. Buwaya: Giant Crocodile. Monstrous Cavalry mounted by a Naga. Marcupo: Big snakes that spit poison and are excellent chargers. Have a poisonous miasma. Comparable to the Salamander. Monstrous Beast. Phaya Newborn: The ultimative transformation of a Naga. A grand snake. Monster that does a lot of damage. Doesn't have a lot of staying power and is meant for charge cycles instead. As it is still a Naga, it has human-like intelligence. "Newborn" refers to them being freshly transformed from a Kanya, not their actual age. They are quite comparable to a Sepulchral Stalker in appearance including size, although they do not have arms. Monstrous Beast. Phaya Elder: With age and being fed more souls, Phaya increase in size. This has no actual limit, although at some point it becomes tedious to move on land, and the truly ancient Phaya tend to retreat to the ocean. Phaya Elders are towering creatures that can take on Carnosaurs or Dragons, although again they have a relatively low staying power. Monster.
--- Flyers ---
Amphitere: Winged serpent like creatures, used for skirmishing. Comparable to Fell Bats. Winged Kanya: Wields a flamberged spear. Associated with Rahu. Mikonawa: A flying mount. Bird-like, with a serpentine snout and talons (think Archaeopteryx). Usually mounted by two Naga, one being an archer. Comparable to a Terradon, but lighter. Bakunawa: A Phaya that developed four wings. Flying Monstrous Beast. Phaya that take this route stop increasing in size and rather tend to develop their mental aspects.
--- War Machines ---
Buwaya with Mounted Bow: A bolt-throwing siege weapon consisting of several metal bow arms, comparable to a chinese Chuangzi Nu (see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Chuangzi_Nu1.jpg), mounted on a Buwaya. More mobile than most siege weapons, but quite weak (a standard bolt thrower).
(Naga are supposed to be at a clear disadvantage to most other races when it comes to artillery. I even consider them having no artillery at all.)
--- Heroes and Lords ---
Mage-Priest, High Priest: the wizards of the Naga. Lore of Life, Death or Heavens. Worship the deity associated with their lore.
Naga Assassin, Hand of Kali: Use kerambits or a bow. Stealthy.
Preah, Oknha: Nobility, melee-based commanders.
The Blood Queen: A melee based commander and caster of the Lore of Death. Head-priest of Kali.
Some of those can upgrade to having wings, four arms, six arms and snake-like apendages on their head (which grant magic protection and gives a breath attack). Those are to be understood as replacements for the mounts that Heroes and Lords of other races get, wings replacing something like a Pegasus, six arms and/or the appendages something like a Dragon. Another possibility is for them to transform into a Phaya, including the Bakunawa. Every Hero and Lord is a Kanya, or possibly a Phaya, but never a default Naga. While default Naga are human-like in their capabilities and thus could train to be great fighters and wizards, the point is that there is no reason for them not to transform into a Kanya at some point. Theoretically, a default Naga would have the advantage of being able to ride a mount, but Naga culture priorizes personal transformation rather than relying on mounts. Also, Buwayas and Mikonawas are not exactly the most impressive mounts, not being able to compare to the mounts a leader of another race would ride, like for example a Griffon. The only other reason a Naga wouldn't become a Kanya is a lack of available souls. But without souls being present, a community of Naga would be in decline anyway.
--- Relations to other things in the Warhammer world ----
Coatl: Remnants of the Naga that did not rebell against the Lizardmen. The counterpart to a Phaya, without the imperfection that comes from using Dhar to reach the state. Tepok: The original deity they had before rebelling. Bloodwreck Medusae, Hydras: Experiments conducted in cooperation with the Dark Elves, sacrifizing insurgents from Ghrond by merging them with Naga. Given that those lost most of their intelligence, a failure in the eyes of the Naga, and therefore not used by the Naga. Medusae are technically Kanya, and Hydras are technically Phaya. Dragon Isles: Originally an outpost of the Lizardmen that was tied to their holdings in Khuresh. Them losing Khuresh resulted in the current savage state of the Lizardmen there. City of Quetza: Was originally the most important breeding pool for Naga and had a massive population of those. Most of the inhabitants were killed in the rebellion, and the survivors fled to Khuresh. Fell into ruin afterwards, allowing the Skaven to claim it. Ind: Some solitary Kanya tend to offer their services as mercenaries to armies from Ind. Those are usually outcasts from Naga society, but nevertheless capable fighters. Basilisks: Might be Chaos-mutated Marcupos, but them being spread in the Old World doesn't fit with that. Cockatrices: Likewise might be Chaos-mutated Feathered Ones.
--- some ideas for quests ---
Conquer Quetza: The breeding pool might still be used. Could be the goal of a campaign, or provide a very useful Landmark (like a global increase for city growth).
Mamelu: A legendary Phaya of enormous size that lives somewhere in the ocean. The quest could be to find it and then strike an alliance.
--- The Gorgons ---
An additional idea, more of a talking point. Meant as a non-player faction.
Gorgons are a splinter faction, living in another part of the world. Currently I'm thinking of the east coast of the Southlands, maybe wedged between Skaven and Lizardmen territories. While the Naga are just evil, the Gorgons make strong use of daemonic powers and spread corruption.
Instead of the creatures in the Naga roster, they directly use Hydras, Cockatrices, and Basilisks. They retain Amphiteres, and instead of Feathered Ones have regular Cold Ones. In addition, they have the Catopleba or Gorgon Bull, a creature roughly resembling the stature of a bull, but with reptiloid features like scales, and a poisonous breath. They also feature a unit closely resembling the Bloodwreck Medusa. Gorgons are savage and technologically inferior, pretty much similar to Beastmen. Their armies are often bolstered by other creatures affine to Chaos, ranging from Ungors to Daemons.
Gorgons have access to the Lores of Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch, possibly also to a new Lore that deals with petrification and poison.
--- The Quetzal ---
Quetzal were the original Naga, before they separated from the Lizardmen. A typical Quetzal looked like an elongated Skink with serpentine features and colorful feathers all over the body. Just as Naga, they are lithe, agile and highly mobile, and also intelligent. They were able to learn any basic lore of magic and reach the status of a Loremaster. Unlike Naga, they did not have venom. While the Slann were hibernating, it often fell to a Quetzal to rule, with them being seen as second in command. With age and a righteous mind, they metamorphosized into a High Quetzal, looking similar to a fully feathered Kanya, but with a clearly serpentine face. The most devout to Tepok were further able to transform into a Coatl, achieving immortality. The Coatl are the only surviving Quetzal. The Quetzal had two major centers that contained their largest breeding pools, the city of Quetza in the southern parts of Lustria, and what is known as The Lost City of the Old Ones in Khuresh (both of them dedicated to the Old One Tepok).
After their rebellion, they kept their appearance, but were unable to transform. Given that, it was only a question of time until they lost most of the High Quetzal, which is why the Lizardmen chose to wait instead of invading Khuresh. The appearance and properties the Naga have today are a result of them deliberately making themselves more human-like by infusing themselves with human souls in order to acquire sexual reproduction instead of having to rely on breeding pools.
--- TODO ---
- A lot of races have their own lore of magic. I am not good at designing those, however. - Need more legendary lords. - The three priesthoods might be developed into something bigger. - Not sure but I think the unit list should contain a bigger variety of melee infantry in terms of tiers of ability. Right now, one could say that the default Naga units are Core, the religious default Naga and the basic Kanya infantry are Special, and the religious Kanya are Rare, but I think this should be tinkered with. - Thinking about renaming the Amphitere. Every other name is from south east asian mythology, and this being a greek entry is kind of an outlier. The Jaculus from Wyvax post might be a possible candidate, although I'd prefer a name that sounds more south east asian. - Should Cathay and/or Ind have superior firearm technology, I'd consider giving Khuresh it's own firearm unit. Important is that they have significantly less advanced technology than Cathay or Ind. - Can't determine whether Kanya are Monstrous Infantry or regular Infantry. The mass of an average Kanya is more comparable to that of a Saurus than that of a Kroxigor, which points to Infantry. However, their tails are long enough for them to tower over men when they stand upright, possibly reaching a height comparable to that of a Kroxigor. I think I'd classify them as Infantry, although some of them might make the step across the boundary to Monstrous Infantry. This might especially hold for Lords and Heroes.
Comments
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0 · Disagree AgreeI like these chaos cultists from Age of Sigmar Warcry. The "Splintered Fang". Mentions in the fluff that they "carry the blood of the daemonic coiling ones" - possible reference to old world Khuresh? Really cool models, although they don't fit a low fantasy style at all. The gladiatorial aesthetic doesn't fit either, they'd need to look more south-east asia inspired. But if you were to tone down these designs and rework them to fit they'd make great followers/occasional victims for the serpentine higher tier units.
I see that coming up with logical start positions for LL isn't anywhere near as awkward as I thought. These could work great.
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5 · Disagree AgreeIt’s so sad that CA is limited in what they can add to the game.
I really don’t understand why GW never showed races like the Naga some love. Instead of Killing WHFB, they could’ve made them a new race together with Cathay and maybe even Tigermen of Ind.
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2 · Disagree Agree- Report
2 · Disagree Agreewill it happen in game, many doubts, but i do want the far east.
#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
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0 · Disagree AgreeI personally don’t need every minor race in the Far East, but if I would get Tigermen, Cathay and the Naga I would be very happy.
Those are in my opinion the most interesting ones.
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1 · Disagree Agree#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
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1 · Disagree AgreePersonally, rather than make a Tigerman race, I'd make them part of a wider Ind roster as mid- to high-tier infantry plus a couple other units and a LL. As cool as they are, they aren't the main power on the subcontinent, and I'd like to see the humans of Ind explored just as much.
Araby - https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/216388/ultimate-araby-unit-list-the-canon-edition#latest
Estalia - https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/219062/ultimate-estalia-unit-list-the-canon-edition#latest
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3 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree Agree- Report
2 · Disagree AgreeI see the Skaven it's the opposite of the Lizardmen in gameplay and basically everything.
I think the Snakemen should relay in poisoning to be effective, poisoning and hypnosis units and mages like cobra priests to use hipnosis to paralize units
No flaying units they should hate flying things like the eagles that prey on them so they also hate high elf's.
Infantry based in good mobility, not a very strong but good ambush capabilities,
Not a strong artillery in terms of damage but something that favors their gameplay style like poison spitters, and simple missile units like Brtetonia.
This army should be not very strong or with high morale, they should be kind of a week in terms of infantry or prolonged combat, but good at slowing the enemy flow and the flanking of the enemy, to counter atack with ambush units and win the flank.
As monster units goes just don't use any prehistoric animals, they are kind of the point of the Lizardmen, something more like gigantic centipedes with high mobility well armored and armor piecing, basilisks, and other demons from the South Asia or slave criatures like toadmen and goblins slaves, or other kind of weak beastmen that they use to move around their warmachines.
The idea is good but they should work different of the Lizardmen, not just Lizardmen with a skin of snakes everything in gameplay tactics and personally should feel different and twisted.
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0 · Disagree AgreeAs for the current build I created I actually haven't taken the time to evaluate it's strengths and weaknesses so I should probably do that now.
Pros:
- Lots of Stalk
- Lots of Physical resistance
- Good Missile resistance
- Many good infantry options across the board
- Above average MA
- Lots of Poison and other debuffs
- Strong Monsters and monstrous infantry
- Several sources of healing
Mediocre Bits:
- Limited flying options
- Mediocre HP
- Variable LD (low tier is lower than average, high tier higher than average)
- Decent ranged infantry but limited options
Cons:
- Only token cavalry, none fast
- Only one artillery option (Pliodon War Barge)
- No sources of magical damage outside of magic itself
- Low average MD
- Infantry vulnerable to Magic Damage
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0 · Disagree AgreeThrefore they lack completly cavalry, with only barge and or altar dragged by something (maybe slaves^^).
In my view thry are a infantry and monster based army with good air supply and lack of cavalry and artillery. They have should have strong infantry but yeah not like LM, quick hard hitters and only the highest tier with good armour.
Giant centipede is very great for them.
In air supply the have no big air monsters but, the flying serpents as tier 1 and 2 and some flying kraits/nagas (melee and archers?) with tier 3/4.
Only flying monster is cockatrice.
So their air units are completly diferent from LM.
They should even lack classical artillery, their mages should do it for them. Or some poison spitting monsters against infantry. Only wall breaking monsters.
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0 · Disagree AgreeFor some inspiration, I wanted to share these images from a now largely defunct TT game called Confrontation, from the bankrupt French miniature manufacturer Rackham. They were part of a faction called the Ophidians, they are gloriously serpentine, and while they might lack the Southeast Asian influences and some of the savagery of the Blood Naga perhaps, they are still absolutely worth taking a look at.
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5 · Disagree 1Agree- Report
2 · Disagree Agree- Report
2 · Disagree AgreeMedieval II is still the best Total War.
Damnatio memoriae to Arcade Mode
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1 · Disagree Agree(Note: most likely, they have done the designs for TWW3 already, but I wanted to bring my ideas down regardless.)
First, start to listen to some dark indonesian Gamelan music.This sets up the theme. Given their location corresponding to earths south east asia and indonesia, let's get some design from there. We take Khmer architecture like Angkor Wat, deep in jungles, where dark unspoken rites are done by a magical race.
Clad in the fashion of Khmer, wearing brazen armors and wearing Kris swords, those creatures have the skin and faces of snakes. Some are bipedal, some have the lower body of a snake. They are quick, silent and deadly, and lead by horrific yet beautiful creatures with multiple arms, wings and even several heads.
Picture showing Khmer architecture.
Basic history:
The Naga were originally a bred of lizardmen, embedded in their society, working mostly as assassins, mages and coordinators of the Skink. They were smarter and more cunning than other breds, save the Slann, and they desired more. Ultimatively, this had to result in a Paradise Lost like scenario, and after a civil war, they fled from Lustria to an old lizardmen stronghold in Khuresh, originally build by the Old Ones.
Centuries later, they faced a severe problem. Just like other lizardmen, they were created in Spawnings. However, for this, a special ingredient is required, of which they were running out. So far, they had used reserves they brought with them, but the recipe to create it was kept secret by the Slann. The Naga faced extinction.
Having become desperate, they were encountered by the Druchii from the Cult of Pleasure, and they forged a sort of shaky alliance. In exchange for knowledge and wealth, the Druchii told them some of their secrets. In detail, they learned some abilities in utilizing True Dhar, which they craved as they never managed to use Qhaysh, but in the end, they never mastered Dhar as the Druchii have. Also, a fundamental change came to the Naga society, which was the introduction of the deity Khala, who might be an aspect of Khaine.
The Naga developed a grand ritual using this newfound deity. They captured hundreds of humans from Ind which they sacrifized to Khala, ripping the souls out of their bodies using Dhar. Then, they sacrificed themselves.
From that, a new kind of Naga rose. A kind which had human genders.
Society was restructured, and they overtook a lot of concepts from the Cult of Pleasure, with a female ruling case, the Blood Queens. However, they also strife to imitate the lizardmen, while mixing in designs from Ind.
The Naga like to stay on their own, keeping their strongholds, and sometimes abduct other creatures for their rituals.
However, in the recent times, they noticed portents of things to come.
Metamorphosis:
Naga can change their body, in a process that is part nature, part will and part magic. They do so in a skin shedding process, emerging as a different creature.
They start their life by a female Naga giving birth to a whole swarm of dozens of creatures looking pretty much like snakes, which then slither into the jungle swamps, living the first years as a beast.
With puberty comes their first metamorphosis, in which they get arms and legs, and also sentience. Their appearance is somewhat between that of a Skink and that of a Saurus, but with the face of a serpent. They return to the cities and are adopted in a lower house. In their society, membership to a house equals rank, and to rise in rank, they have to be adopted by a higher house. A part of this is often metamorphosis.
Most higher houses require the lower body to be that of a snake, and to increase in size.
Especially mystic houses require a cobra metamorphosis, in which they develop the frills of a cobra, and also the ability to spit poison.
For the highest houses, they metamorphose into creatures with several arms, four or even six, or they develop wings or snake-hair like appendages (the Kanya Naga). In the priest caste of Khala, some have several heads, but this is rare, and those creatures become *weird*.
Picture of a Kanya Naga. Wouldn't use the human face, of course.
Atavism:
Another line of metamorphosis is that of the atavists. This faction of Naga discards the houses and instead embraces their beast like aspects, regressing to one. They enlarge their claws and fangs and strenghten their poisons. Some take on cobra aspects, focusing on spitting poison. But furthermore, they manage to transform into large beasts. Some become giant snakes (the Phaya Naga), with only a part of their sentience being kept.
But one of the epitome of this is becoming a Hydra, totally giving in to beasthood. This is how Hydras were created in the first place, and a part of their dealings with the Druchii. (Note: this lacks explanation why there are Hydras in the Old World.)
As atavists still need a magical component for the higher metamorphosis, there are mystics overseeing their process.
A Phaya Naga.
Architecture:
Aside from the Khmer style for the bigger structures, resembling Angkor Wat, the smaller temporary buildings are more after Malaysian fashion, in particular the Rumah Gadang style.
Rumah Gadang palace.
Units:
Naga have regular infantry made out of swordsmen (wearing the Kris), spearmen and archers. They wear Khmer style armor with brazen features (another source of inspiration would be Majapahit soldiers). One kind of irregulars are the cobra-like, which spit poison before they charge, somewhat comparable to roman legionaries throwing javelins.
Another line are the atavist units, starting with troops using claws and fangs, to dedicated cobra-like troops who spit, arriving at war-beasts like the Phaya Naga and the Hydras. There is also a winged unit.
Higher ranks of warriors usually master a long version of the kris, a glaive (Arbir) or dual-wielding the kris. This culminates in multi-armed Naga wielding four or even six swords (probably a Hero and/or Lord).
Then there are the mystics. The line starts with spiritual warriors wearing enchanted weapons that do spirit damage, and from that line come the spell-casting Heroes and Lords. Hero level units cast regular Aethyr like Azyr, Ghyran or Shyish, while a Lord level unit might be able to use Dhar (if that is not to be kept Druchii unique). Mystics follow different orders corresponding to their respective Wind, with the priests of Khala on top.
Another line is that of scouts and assassins, with skirmishing units and an assassin Hero.
On the whole, Naga units tend to be fast, accurate, acceptably armored, but not that resilient. Naga infantry has a faster walking speed than most other infantry.
Question of Cavalry:
I haven't added cavalry yet, and I want to emphasize that there are several considerations in which I am torn.
Possibility 1: They ride some native species, possibly jaguars (fast light skirmisher cavalry), black jaguars (assassin line version) and war elephants. War elephants might carry ballistas, being their primary siege weapon.
Possibility 2: They have some lizardmen mounts, like Cold Ones and Teradons, but not the bigger dinosaurs. I don't like the dinosaur theme for them, though. Possibily Salamanders.
Possibility 3: Some new kind of giant lizard mounts, like crocodiles or turtles, maybe sea serpents.
Possibility 4: Catoblepas, or Gorgon Bulls. Bull like creatures with scales, breathing poison. Would be very heavy slow cavalry, but don't really fit the overall style of being agile.
Other ideas:
One thing I thought of were Yaksa auxiliaries, which are ogre-sized monsters wielding maces. Probably won't fit well in, though.
The Naga might have been a vital part of the Great Plan, and the secession a reason why things gotten out of hands. Embedded in lizardmen troops, they might have been an ideal counter to Skaven.
Also thought about including firearms, using the indonesian designs. I find the idea of Naga troops with blunderbusses interesting, and likewise them having war elephants with swivel guns. Doesn't really fit into the overall concept.
A part of what they have access to should also be fitting to what Ind and Cathay have.
The Ruinous Powers:
Naga do not directly serve Chaos. They are, however, evil, and they use some powers of Chaos, pretty much like the Druchii or the vampires do. My basic reason here is that I like a certain style, which is silent, beautiful but deadly jungles with forbidden temples. Unbound Chaos does not fit to that.
There can be, however, a faction which does serve Chaos, spreading corruption. This might be a schism amongst Khala worshippers, who essentially serve Khorne (although other Chaos Gods also fit). They are opposing the other factions, somewhat like Arkhan does with the Tomb Kings.
I haven't included actual vampirism at all. One could, but as I haven't designed it like this, I'll skip it. In any case, I'd find hordes of skeletons or the like unfitting, if anything, I'd see a few Lords and Heroes being vampires.
The Beastmen in Khuresh are drawn to sanctuaries of Khala, in which Chaos is strong. They are still enemies. The Ruinous Powers might want to use them to dispose of the factions opposing them.
Other Relations:
Lizardmen: Anathema, arch-enemies.
High elves: are wary of the Naga. One reason for their outposts in Khuresh is to monitor them.
Ind: They noted the abductions, but they are not full fledged enemies. Trade is not ruled out.
Cathay: No bad blood, but no alliance either. Trade is possible.
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1 · Disagree AgreeI want to address several of the posts there, and what ideas I really like and would overtake into my concept.
First of all, there is the initial collection of canon sources by Wyvax. It is quite informative and I like that we have all such information collected at one place.
But let me be very clear here: One should not let the small amount of information that GW dropped then and there block creative process. GW themselves changed things in the past, and we should not think of stuff like that at an absolute canon.
Of course, it is still some baseline one can follow. What I'd do is to see it as the rumors that travellers heard about the region, some of which might be true, some not at all and some being exxagerated.
Just wanted to emphasize this.
But I think that at least to Wyvax this was clear, as for his concept, he dropped the soul trade parts. All in all I think it might be impossible to create a *good* conception while fulfilling all of the canon source stuff.
Wyvax unit roster:
While he doesn't do the "magic race" stuff that I did, there are some parts I really like.
But right from the start, I would drop the concept of "Druchii mirror High Elves, Naga mirror Lizardmen *in units*". Thing is, the Druchii are in nature not different to High Elves, the Naga however are. But just saying that this should not dictate.
What Wyvax did with the basic infantry roster is absolutely solid and should work well, like it.
I really love the monstrous units Wyvax introduced. Varanids are very stylish, Jaculi are stylish.
I also like the line beginning with Cockatrices. One thing I'd do here however is to consider making new creatures based on those concepts, instead of taking over the preexisting WH creatures. I think their already exitisting descriptions don't fit in well. Have there being a genus of magical creatures which have those properties of causing fear, breathing poison, and possibly the earth affinity (stone turning gaze) that ties the real world mythologies of Cockatrices, Basilisks, Gorgons and the Gorgon Bull (Catoplebas) together, even though we need to be aware that we then go for a more greek/european vibe.
A weak point of Wyvax in my eyes is the weak emphasis on magic, especially in regard of the Blood Queen concept. I think if I was to work on his concept, I'd actually introduce vampirism, maybe with something that Neferata gave the Naga the elixir about the same time when she created the Jade-Blooded in Cathay.
Thing is, I don't see the Blood Queens as primitive casters akin to Greenskin shamans. The rest of the roster looks quite savage and doesn't scream culture to me, so I'd say that mages like the elves or humans have don't really fit. The intuitive magic that a vampire is given access to, however, does.
As for Wyvax question: "Do you think it fits in with Warhammer, if not what would you change, or is it all just a piece of garbage fanfiction?"
I think it fits very very well. I still prefer my own concept as I prefer the concept of a magic and mysterious race over creatures of chaos, but I can't deny that Wyvax concept is very well made, and absolutely in the style of Warhammer.
Unlike the blowing-up-the-planet stuff that I can't really understand. Not sure why they are giving up their old stuff. The new stuff would easilywork as a universe on it's own, just like WH40k is different from WH and yet similar.
Don't understand why GW never developed the east either.
In regards of what I'd use for my concept:
The Jaculus inspired me somewhat. I'd make it a feathery creature, maybe a serpentine paradise bird, but more of an animal. The part about "poisonous fell bats" I'd overtake instantly. I see their role as melee skirmishers and scouts, quite weak but exactly what you need to take out that siege engine in the back.
The line starting with the cockatrice I'd make a line of a single species in different sizes and races. The skirmisher creature from above would probably be their smallest kind. Then there'd be a slightly larger creature which breathes poison all around it which also flies (based on the cockatrice) and a horse sized creature which doesn't fly (based on the basilisk). Their appearance would be comparable in any case, without things like the several pairs of legs.
All in all, in combat role, they'd be somewhat comparable to the feral units of the vampire counts, Fell Bats, Vargheists and Varghulfs, with additional poison aura.
Given that their concept seems to be quite related to the Naga, I'd consider them to be either degenerated Naga or a creature originally created along with the Naga by the Old Ones. Because of the likeness to the concept of the feathery serpent from mesoamerican mythology I'd say that some of those creatures also live in Lustria, probably untamable by the lizardmen, with only the Naga being close enough in nature to have a connection with them.
With the Varanid, I have some problems in overtaking. My roster is somewhat based on agile tactics, but monitor lizards appear to me more like heavy cavalry. On the other hand, I really like their concept. In my roster, I use jaguars, and that choice was due to those being fast and agile, but replacing them by something more scaly would be quite appropriate. Huh, dunno.
Another option I consider is having some of my atavist Naga as mounts, somewhat looking like Necropolis Knights in composition.
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Ad Draxynnic: I am somewhat opposed to the elf mutation idea. I think the biggest reason is that this sounds too much like Warcraft Naga.
But I am clad that Draxynnic brought Dechala and Bloodwrack Medusae to my attention. Both look very Naga-like.
The Bloodwrack Medusae are most interesting to me, because they totally fit with my narrative of the Cult of Pleasure being involved with the Naga. Perfectly fits to my idea of the Hydras being taken over from the Naga. Note that the backstory about Sorceresses of Ghrond is something that *is said*, as in *might totally be not the case*. Aside from regular high tier Naga, given my Naga background story, another possibility is that they are the result of different experiments with Dhar manipulating souls, maybe what happens when this is done with a Druchii instead of a human (all in all, I don't see Morathi having problems in sacrifizing her own people).
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I like Abmongs idea of connecting them to the Amazons. Not going to explore that further, though, different direction. I think if I'd redesign the whole world, I'd make a distinction between Gorgons (greek themed, based on poison aura) and Naga (indonesian themed, based on magic), maybe one original species which diverged at some point.
I also like Draculasaurus mentioning the Urumi and the Chakram. Would fit in nicely in my roster. As the Urumi is a somewhat special weapon, I think I'd make them something a Hero tier unit would wear, or at least high tier.
Most of xBlood_Ravens ideas would be easy to incorporate into my roster given my concept of metamorphosis. The ideas are nice. In the end, I'd base what to take over on considerations of army balance.
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0 · Disagree AgreeI think thematically, those should be a thing. This holds for pretty much any concept of Naga, including that of Wyvax and that of mine.
Basically, both become a resource, and you acquire them by battles and by conquering cities (with razing and sacking resulting in more). They are the main resources spend on things such as rites and magic item creation. Different things require different fractions of blood and soul. After a battle, you decide whether you want more blood or more souls.
Another way to obtain them is the Abduction stance for armies, which essentially functions like raiding, just that you get that resource instead of money.
In my concept, they could also be used in order to upgrade units, being required to trigger Metamorphosis. This would actually change the appearance of the troops in question, like making them bigger, giving them frills, et cetera.
It might also be a resource required to unlock Lords and Heros. Maybe there is one basic type of both which requires only money, but especially types with wings or multiple arms require the resources. And it might be even required to hire higher tier units, like winged troops.
Optional: blood and soul corruption.
One interesting option would be that spending those resources in some ways might cause unwanted corruption, either in all regions if spend globally (a global ritual) or in the current region if spend locally. Of course, one could use this by going into an enemy region and then upgrade ones units, causing an order debuff there, and then attack when the garrison is weakened from a rebell attack, although of course then you'd conquer a tainted region.
There might be buildings which allow usage without causing corruption, and also buildings which make doing so more effective.
One possible design would be that blood causes corruption where it is used, while souls cause corruption where they are harvested, as this is where the required Dhar magic is cast.
Optional: appeasing the Ruinous Powers
This is a somewhat unprocessed idea that I just wanted to mention. Basically, the Ruinous Powers would have a particular interest, or the veil to the Immaterium might be weak in Khuresh. In any case, the Naga got a problem with the Chaos Gods. In order to solve it, they feed them souls, appeasing them temporarily.
Alternatively, in my concept, the souls might be fed to Khala, who demands those. If she is appeased, she might reward you, but if you don't feed her, horrible things might happen.
Optional: corruption as tactical weapon
One could use the resources in order to purposefully create corruption in a remote place as a sort of weapon, like a corruption nuke. Note that one could do this especially in the enemies region you *don't* want to invade, at least right now.
As for mechanics, I see this happening over several turns, with the enemy being able to stop it somehow. It might look somewhat like a Vortex ritual, with some cities being the source. It could allow for the enemy to spend money on intervention armies.
Not sure if this fits here, though. Might be rather something to give to the Chaos armies themselves, or to factions such as the Skaven.
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0 · Disagree AgreeWe know the Lost Temple City of the Old Ones is in Khuresh, and it makes sense for that to be their Capital. That being said, all the Temple Cities server/served a purpose of the Old Ones. I prepose that the Lost Temple City’s purpose was the study of the winds of Magic and development a way to harness Chaos.
My Origins of the Naga:
Before the Great Catastrophe, the Old Ones were working on a prototype called “Sotek.” This was not The Sotek that the Skink’s would will into existence during the war of the rat and the serpent, but does share its originals as part of the Old Ones great plan. Before the Old Ones could either finish this Entity for its intended purpose or scrap it as a failure, the Polar Gateways Collapsed and flooded the world with Chaos.
While this climatic battle was taking place and with new found strength, the Not-Sotek breach containment. Taking in everything it came into contact with and was “denied” by the Old Ones as it ran rampant through the Temple City. All it new was that it was meant to be worshipped and it wanted everything the Old Ones possessed for itself. Eventually finding its way to the Spawning Pools, it dipped its fangs into each and its venom turned the Pools blood Red.
After the Great Vortex stopped chaos, The Lizardmen and their Slann masters that had survived the Catastrophe found themselves cut off from the other Temple Cities and surrounded by a new unknown enemy. Twisted demonic serpentine parodies of themselves.
Bigger than a Saurus, quick as Skinks, and some even possessing an extra pairs of arms. What the Naga lacked in Cold Blooded Cunning or magic, they made up for in voracity, venom, and numbers. Plus they would just take the weapons off dead Lizardmen.
While the Lizardmen fought to the very end, slowly but surly they were defeated and what remained of their Temple Cities were destroyed in the conflict. Now in full control of the area, the Not-Sotek intended to continue spreading its influence and eventually across the entire world. Unfortunately for it, the Naga proved too beastial and disinterested in building a civilization or in world domination.
The Naga were unable to maintain their own spawning pools and made for poor followers. Sure they could kill and make sacrifices to Not-Sotek, but they couldn’t make use of what remained of the more advanced Old Ones tech and they weren’t much interesting beyond their next meal. Breaking up into smaller warbands and with no immediate foes to fight, most simply went into hibernation. These Dormant Naga would take on the appearance of large menacing Statues that litter the Hinterlands. Try as It might, Not-Sotek simply didn’t yet have the power to reawaken and command them in its current state.
It wouldn’t be until centuries later when the first human tribes began to settle the region that an new opportunity presented itself. After observing them for a time and taking the name of Nagendra(yes from Warcry), it presented itself to the humans as a benevolent goddess(these humans are matriarchal), only asking for worship and sacrifices in return. Soon enough the first Serpent Cults started to take shape and would spread like a slithering bloody tide.
Installing the more powerful magic users as their spiritual leaders. These human worshippers would grown in numbers, taking to rebuilding the Lost Temple City in devotion to Nagendra. Next they were tasked with gaining the favor of the “Coiled Ones.” For their efforts were rewarded with various snake mutations and being lead to “sacred” artifacts, but in reality these were forgotten old one devices. These devices are unpredictable, possibly broken, but after many “unworthy” cultists they would learn to use these artifacts to deadly effect.
As the Cult grew and coiled its way every facet of Khureshi society, the more powerful Nagendra became. Eventually powerful enough to reawaken the dormant Naga and her new servants were be able to command them using Blood Magic Rituals.
A mix of human cultists and mutated “Snakemen” devotees(a new type of Beastmen) would make up the core of their forces, infantry and light ranged units. They’d also be able to use cavalry. My idea is either using a kind of aquatic quadruped drake/reptile or a limbless flying serpent created using flesh magic or both.
Naga are the Warlord and heavy shock troops.
The High Priestesses of the Serpent Cults are the magic users and keep the Naga in line.
The ones that command the largest number of Naga, which requires a lot of daily sacrifices, have earn the title of “Blood Naga Queens.”
Not-Sotek, turned Nagendra, goes from just an Old Ones’ science experiment to the new Chaos God of Envy and Toxins. Slowly spreading its own brand of Chaos Corruption to every corner of the Far East. Leaving rivers of tainted Blood and toxic Souls in its wake.
The End.
As a side note, I liked the idea of Neferata having interacted with them. It would be in character for her trying to gain influence. That being said, I think the Blood Naga Queens shouldn’t be Vampires, as that would imply Undead units. However, I think they should have had some sort of influence upon them. Maybe it was because of Llamians that the original human tribes were Matriarchal, and Not-Sotek simply took advantage of this for its own purposes.
Maybe Nagendra saw Vampirism as a potential weapon to use against other Chaos Factions. Since the humans cultists see becoming a “Snakemen” as a great blessing, it’s not impossible that they could have a special vampiric unit type. However used sparing, like a blood ritual/elixir they use empower Naga Warriors, but are not able to pass the curse on to others.
I took a lot of influence from Conan the Barbarian’s Serpent-Men and the Cult of Sett.
What do you think?
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2 · Disagree AgreeWhat would really make them stand out would be some carnivorous and poisonous giant flora. Since Khureshi Society revolves around blood, capturing enemies would be a priority. Maybe using a type of living artillery seed launcher that tangles up enemies with a slowing mechanic? Squads that spend too much time in areas where these vines spread find themselves as easy targets for even the slowest of Snakemen units.
In addition to an Mobile Sacrificial Alter for boosting Spells, they could have a type of platform that’s used to transports a big Corpse Flower looking thing that spreads spores on the battlefield that either weaken enemy units or powers up friendly units.
In addition to the big units, the infantry or lords could have access to a kind of living whip. Like a vine with fangs that has a poison effect. Things like this would really make them stand apart from other armies. To help visually, as opposed to the Wood Elves having Treekin with bark armor, Snakemen would have lightly armored blood hungry Piranha plants capable of regenerating HP with enough time and enough enemies to feed off of.
Who to say that only humans could be part of the Serpent Cults? Maybe after a lengthy period in the cobra pit, some captured Elves would prefer to join them over being sacrificed.
For those who know the lore behind the Splintered Fang in Warcry, they’re one of the few chaos warbands that has at least one elf member. I don’t see why that would be lore unfriendly, and it would gives them another explanation for their powerful magic units and access to Blood Ritual Magics or their own unique brand of Vampirism.
Just a few other ideas I had and wanted to share.
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2 · Disagree AgreeFits somewhat to real world Naga being essentially deities.
Has a drawback, though, which is that if humans make out most of their units, we'd have less diversity in actual snakemen units. On the other hand, it might be more relatable for the human players. Human factions tend to be more liked for that reason I heard.
The closest thing of humans being led by non-humans so far are the sylvanian archers and gunners that the Vampire Counts have access to, and those are only auxiliaries. Makes me think about a faction which has Lahmia vampires as overlords but hosts made mostly of humans. Maybe no raised dead at all. I mean, after all, vampires would need to have at least some human levies for their blood, right?
As for you talking about Blood Queens being vampires would imply undead hordes, why? Vampires seem to have an affinity towards necromancy, but would any of them automatically be able to do so by Warhammer lore? And couldn't there be no line that has no innate ability to raise the dead? Actually asking here.
I also like those ideas of weaponized plants. Not sure if that fits to the concepts of Naga in this thread so far, though. Thing is, the plants are a very strong flavor, which bears the risk to dominate other flavors. But in any case sounds like something I'd want to see.
One could extend that concept a lot. Make it a whole new faction, maybe situated on that big island east to Khuresh and south of Nippon. One possibility would even to make this a Dryad faction (without wood elves), but the concept of humans or snakemen or whoever utilizing the plants closer to your original concept sounds very enticizing as it is.
One time, I played with the concept of Dryads in unusual bodies. Like maybe a crawling carpet of vines, mangrove treemen et cetera.
Maybe even a Chaos tainted version of Dryads.
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1 · Disagree AgreeOverall I like your concepts.
But I have one large critisms of your background story: That the Snakemen were brought into existance by a proto-Sotek created by the Old Ones.
Basiclly all in does in the end is making the origin of the real Sotek more confusing. When the Old Ones experimented with a prototype and were forced to flee, before they could finish this prototype, how did the real one came into existance, e.g.?
Currently it is often indicated that Tehenuain created Sotek by creating his cult and performing sacrifices in his name, after he found a prophecy containing him on a sacred plaque. A proto-Sotek created directly by the Old Ones only makes it more confusing and less stream-lined.
And functionally the existance of this proto sotek does nothing more, what e.g. a greater demon or another minor chaos god akin to Hashut or the Great Horned Rat couldn't have done too, e.g. by corrutping the spawning pools.
If Nagendra would have been just a demon or minor chaos god, he would not have confusing implications for the real sotek, but probably still be able to do everything you mentioned.
Otherwise I like the idea of a human civilisation based around the Snakemen of Khuresh. I would still prefer a snakemen society, but I can see potenial in a more southeastasian influenced human faction with snakemen as their leaders or special units.
And I really like your ideas about using plants as weapons. It is fitting for a jungle based civilization to use such things.
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
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1 · Disagree Agree--- Origin ---
Were a breed of Lizardmen that ranked second right after the Slann. Intelligent, magically adept and headstrong. Didn't wanted to be second in command, and desired Qhaysh, which ultimatively led to a rebellion. Those in Lustria were slain, but those in Khuresh (which was originally a major stronghold of the Lizardmen) had ideal terrain (lots of water in wide rivers and jungle bogs) to use to their advantage, driving the Slann and their servants out of that area.
Without the Slann, their breeding was imperfect, and their numbers declined. They struck a pact with the Dark Elves, learning Dhar and developing their own rituals, in which they use blood and souls to improve their breeding, and furthermore allowing them to metamorphosize into stronger forms. Those could be reached before (and the Coatl are in fact just that), but required a lot of effort and, more important, humility (basically a mechanism the Old Ones installed to make sure those who transform are of the right mind). The Dhar variant also results in them getting some humanoid traits in some forms, especially more human-like faces and sexes, by taking over properties of the victims soul.
In return, the Dark Elves acquired Hydras and Bloodwreck Medusae.
Basic religion based on three deities, the Svarbhanu, each associated with a Lore:
Kali (Death), Rahu (Heavens), Ketu (Life)
The priesthood of Kali focuses on assassination and the necessary Dhar rituals to extract souls, that of Rahu are the scholars and architects of the Naga, and that of Ketu are atavists, caretakers of forests, medicine and breeding.
The society is made up of commoners, those priesthoods and nobles (which govern).
Naga: The basic race, encompasses all of the below except for some beasts.
Also means the default Naga who hasn't used metamorphosis, or only a little bit, and is bipedal with a large tail. About the size of a human.
Kanya: A Naga who has metamorphosized quite a bit, is notably bigger than a human and instead of legs slithers on a massive tail.
Phaya: A Naga who fully methamorphosized into a giant snake-like creature.
Cobra: A special kind of default Naga that has a wide neck and can spit poison.
--- Standard Rules ---
- Naga are highly mobile and agile. Basic Naga are already faster than a human, and Kanya are nearly as quick as cavalry.
- All Naga are aquatic.
- All Naga have a venomous bite. It can be used instead of the weapons they wear. (Trivial to do in the tabletop, but no idea what this means for Total War: Warhammer.)
- All Naga have at least a small amount of Natural Armor.
- Naga have access to basic mettalurgy, allowing them to create proper simple metal armor. In that regard, they are clearly ahead of Lizardmen, but quite behind the Empire. Naga armor often features intricate designs and a decorative layer of brass.
- Cobras can spit poison. This is considered to be a missile attack which can be used despite wearing other weapons and is subject to Quick to Fire. It is usually used similar to how a roman Hastatus throws his javelin before entering melee.
- All Naga and their beasts are immune to the venom of each other.
- Nobles, Heroes, Lords and everything of position is a Kanya.
- Kanyas can't mount other creatures, but can develop such things as wings or multiple arms.
- Naga units are used to perfectly move in dense jungles. Thus, Naga cavalry and flyers do not consider forest terrain as dangerous terrain when marching, charging, overruning, taking off or landing. (In terms of the tabletop - not sure what this means for Total War.)
- In terms of Total War, Naga units can move quicker through jungles and watery terrain (Marsh, River, Swamp). As a special stance, Naga armies can submerge in watery terrain, reducing the movement speed but becoming extremely hard to spot (including a high ambush chance).
--- Blood and Souls ---
The ritual that substituted their breeding was that they used human souls to acquire some human properties. The most important one was that they acquired sexes, including being able to reproduce just like a human, instead of using breeding pools like Lizardmen. However, the process was incomplete. A pregnant Naga requires the blood of a human (or a humanoid race, like a dwarf) in order to give birth - otherwise it will result in a stillbirth.
In order to metamorphosize, they additionally need souls. This holds especially for becoming a Kanya or a Phaya, but also to develop such things as sharp claws, better natural armor, sprouting wings et cetera.
Given that they learned Dhar from the Dark Elves, they have access to basic blood magic. They have little use for such things as rejuvenating themselves by such means, as transformation provides a better mean for longevity, but they make use of blood magic especially when it comes to crafting magic items and casting rituals.
For Total War, they will have to acquire the blood and soul resources by defeating armies, conquering cities and raiding. In order to have normal city growth, blood has to present. Otherwise it is slowed (it is assumed that they have some blood stored). While by the description it has to be humanoid blood, for reasons of simplicity I'd relax that. Although one could explicitely state that attacking creatures without blood - especially the undead - doesn't yield any blood. Another possibility is to have a building that represents a flock of humanoids for the purpose of harvesting blood, like "Sacrificial Stables".
Souls would have to be paid when unit types other than standard infantry and mounts are being recruited.
Using a high amount of those resources in a short period of time might cause Chaos Corruption due to the usage of Dhar involved (to which Naga are not immune at all).
--- Basic Infantry ----
Naga Infantry: By standard wear a Kris, a buckler and light armor. Can be equipped with spears.
Naga Archers: Given the natural armor and the close combat ability of all Naga, Naga archers are also able melee fighters, compared to archers from other races. A rear charge from enemy cavalry is still something to avoid.
Naga Skirmishers: Usually equipped with a Kris, a light bow or javelins.
Cobra Infantry, Cobra Skirmishers: Close to their standard Naga counterparts, and mostly about spitting poison. Regular infantry will do so during a charge. Skirmishers might focus on this kind of attack, alternating spitting poison and using range weapons.
Kanya Infantry: Elite infantry. usually use Arbirs (halberds), a great Kris (great weapon) or two Krises.
Kanya Greatbow: Armed with giant bows that might be closer to a bolt thrower than a regular bow, although slightly smaller than that of an Ushabti.
--- Religious Infantry ---
Disciples of Ketu: Naga atavists, wear no armor, use claws enhanced by metamorphosis, have improved natural armor, and are hard to spot in foliage.
Disciples of Rahu: Naga with a kris that do magic damage.
Disciples of Kali: Naga with two poisoned krises. Hidden, Ambusher.
Dedicated of Ketu: Kanya atavists. Excellent against infantry.
Dedicated of Rahu: Kanya with two krises that does magic damage.
Dedicated of Kali: Kanya with two poisoned krises, Hidden, Ambusher, very fast attacks.
--- Cavalry and ground-based Monsters ----
Feathered One: Related to Cold Ones, but lighter and faster. Are covered in multi-colored feathers. Mounted by a Naga.
Buwaya: Giant Crocodile. Monstrous Cavalry mounted by a Naga.
Marcupo: Big snakes that spit poison and are excellent chargers. Have a poisonous miasma. Comparable to the Salamander. Monstrous Beast.
Phaya Newborn: The ultimative transformation of a Naga. A grand snake. Monster that does a lot of damage. Doesn't have a lot of staying power and is meant for charge cycles instead. As it is still a Naga, it has human-like intelligence. "Newborn" refers to them being freshly transformed from a Kanya, not their actual age. They are quite comparable to a Sepulchral Stalker in appearance including size, although they do not have arms. Monstrous Beast.
Phaya Elder: With age and being fed more souls, Phaya increase in size. This has no actual limit, although at some point it becomes tedious to move on land, and the truly ancient Phaya tend to retreat to the ocean. Phaya Elders are towering creatures that can take on Carnosaurs or Dragons, although again they have a relatively low staying power. Monster.
--- Flyers ---
Amphitere: Winged serpent like creatures, used for skirmishing. Comparable to Fell Bats.
Winged Kanya: Wields a flamberged spear. Associated with Rahu.
Mikonawa: A flying mount. Bird-like, with a serpentine snout and talons (think Archaeopteryx). Usually mounted by two Naga, one being an archer. Comparable to a Terradon, but lighter.
Bakunawa: A Phaya that developed four wings. Flying Monstrous Beast. Phaya that take this route stop increasing in size and rather tend to develop their mental aspects.
--- War Machines ---
Buwaya with Mounted Bow: A bolt-throwing siege weapon consisting of several metal bow arms, comparable to a chinese Chuangzi Nu (see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Chuangzi_Nu1.jpg), mounted on a Buwaya. More mobile than most siege weapons, but quite weak (a standard bolt thrower).
(Naga are supposed to be at a clear disadvantage to most other races when it comes to artillery. I even consider them having no artillery at all.)
--- Heroes and Lords ---
Mage-Priest, High Priest: the wizards of the Naga. Lore of Life, Death or Heavens. Worship the deity associated with their lore.
Naga Assassin, Hand of Kali: Use kerambits or a bow. Stealthy.
Preah, Oknha: Nobility, melee-based commanders.
The Blood Queen: A melee based commander and caster of the Lore of Death. Head-priest of Kali.
Some of those can upgrade to having wings, four arms, six arms and snake-like apendages on their head (which grant magic protection and gives a breath attack). Those are to be understood as replacements for the mounts that Heroes and Lords of other races get, wings replacing something like a Pegasus, six arms and/or the appendages something like a Dragon.
Another possibility is for them to transform into a Phaya, including the Bakunawa.
Every Hero and Lord is a Kanya, or possibly a Phaya, but never a default Naga. While default Naga are human-like in their capabilities and thus could train to be great fighters and wizards, the point is that there is no reason for them not to transform into a Kanya at some point. Theoretically, a default Naga would have the advantage of being able to ride a mount, but Naga culture priorizes personal transformation rather than relying on mounts. Also, Buwayas and Mikonawas are not exactly the most impressive mounts, not being able to compare to the mounts a leader of another race would ride, like for example a Griffon.
The only other reason a Naga wouldn't become a Kanya is a lack of available souls. But without souls being present, a community of Naga would be in decline anyway.
--- Relations to other things in the Warhammer world ----
Coatl: Remnants of the Naga that did not rebell against the Lizardmen. The counterpart to a Phaya, without the imperfection that comes from using Dhar to reach the state.
Tepok: The original deity they had before rebelling.
Bloodwreck Medusae, Hydras: Experiments conducted in cooperation with the Dark Elves, sacrifizing insurgents from Ghrond by merging them with Naga. Given that those lost most of their intelligence, a failure in the eyes of the Naga, and therefore not used by the Naga. Medusae are technically Kanya, and Hydras are technically Phaya.
Dragon Isles: Originally an outpost of the Lizardmen that was tied to their holdings in Khuresh. Them losing Khuresh resulted in the current savage state of the Lizardmen there.
City of Quetza: Was originally the most important breeding pool for Naga and had a massive population of those. Most of the inhabitants were killed in the rebellion, and the survivors fled to Khuresh. Fell into ruin afterwards, allowing the Skaven to claim it.
Ind: Some solitary Kanya tend to offer their services as mercenaries to armies from Ind. Those are usually outcasts from Naga society, but nevertheless capable fighters.
Basilisks: Might be Chaos-mutated Marcupos, but them being spread in the Old World doesn't fit with that.
Cockatrices: Likewise might be Chaos-mutated Feathered Ones.
--- some ideas for quests ---
Conquer Quetza: The breeding pool might still be used. Could be the goal of a campaign, or provide a very useful Landmark (like a global increase for city growth).
Mamelu: A legendary Phaya of enormous size that lives somewhere in the ocean. The quest could be to find it and then strike an alliance.
--- The Gorgons ---
An additional idea, more of a talking point. Meant as a non-player faction.
Gorgons are a splinter faction, living in another part of the world. Currently I'm thinking of the east coast of the Southlands, maybe wedged between Skaven and Lizardmen territories.
While the Naga are just evil, the Gorgons make strong use of daemonic powers and spread corruption.
Instead of the creatures in the Naga roster, they directly use Hydras, Cockatrices, and Basilisks. They retain Amphiteres, and instead of Feathered Ones have regular Cold Ones. In addition, they have the Catopleba or Gorgon Bull, a creature roughly resembling the stature of a bull, but with reptiloid features like scales, and a poisonous breath. They also feature a unit closely resembling the Bloodwreck Medusa.
Gorgons are savage and technologically inferior, pretty much similar to Beastmen.
Their armies are often bolstered by other creatures affine to Chaos, ranging from Ungors to Daemons.
Gorgons have access to the Lores of Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch, possibly also to a new Lore that deals with petrification and poison.
--- The Quetzal ---
Quetzal were the original Naga, before they separated from the Lizardmen.
A typical Quetzal looked like an elongated Skink with serpentine features and colorful feathers all over the body. Just as Naga, they are lithe, agile and highly mobile, and also intelligent. They were able to learn any basic lore of magic and reach the status of a Loremaster. Unlike Naga, they did not have venom.
While the Slann were hibernating, it often fell to a Quetzal to rule, with them being seen as second in command.
With age and a righteous mind, they metamorphosized into a High Quetzal, looking similar to a fully feathered Kanya, but with a clearly serpentine face. The most devout to Tepok were further able to transform into a Coatl, achieving immortality. The Coatl are the only surviving Quetzal.
The Quetzal had two major centers that contained their largest breeding pools, the city of Quetza in the southern parts of Lustria, and what is known as The Lost City of the Old Ones in Khuresh (both of them dedicated to the Old One Tepok).
After their rebellion, they kept their appearance, but were unable to transform. Given that, it was only a question of time until they lost most of the High Quetzal, which is why the Lizardmen chose to wait instead of invading Khuresh.
The appearance and properties the Naga have today are a result of them deliberately making themselves more human-like by infusing themselves with human souls in order to acquire sexual reproduction instead of having to rely on breeding pools.
--- TODO ---
- A lot of races have their own lore of magic. I am not good at designing those, however.
- Need more legendary lords.
- The three priesthoods might be developed into something bigger.
- Not sure but I think the unit list should contain a bigger variety of melee infantry in terms of tiers of ability. Right now, one could say that the default Naga units are Core, the religious default Naga and the basic Kanya infantry are Special, and the religious Kanya are Rare, but I think this should be tinkered with.
- Thinking about renaming the Amphitere. Every other name is from south east asian mythology, and this being a greek entry is kind of an outlier. The Jaculus from Wyvax post might be a possible candidate, although I'd prefer a name that sounds more south east asian.
- Should Cathay and/or Ind have superior firearm technology, I'd consider giving Khuresh it's own firearm unit. Important is that they have significantly less advanced technology than Cathay or Ind.
- Can't determine whether Kanya are Monstrous Infantry or regular Infantry. The mass of an average Kanya is more comparable to that of a Saurus than that of a Kroxigor, which points to Infantry. However, their tails are long enough for them to tower over men when they stand upright, possibly reaching a height comparable to that of a Kroxigor. I think I'd classify them as Infantry, although some of them might make the step across the boundary to Monstrous Infantry. This might especially hold for Lords and Heroes.
- Report
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