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How to make the Old world enjoyable again.

ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 4,269
Ordertide is a huge problem, but we know that CA is aware of it and will fix it as soon as possible. This is why I want to make a thread to collect and discuss some suggestions and ideas.

The Dawitide will hopefully be fixed with the GS rework but there are other things that need to be done to make the Old World interesting again.

Right now all Empire and Bretonnia factions are to friendly towards each other. All Empire and Bretonnia factions are just holding hands and singing kumbaya. They only wake up from that stand-by mode when an evil factions appears on the map.
Mostly a poor little and absolutely harmless BM faction that spawned somewhere in the woods.
As soon as such a faction arrives, all Order buddies collectively hunt it down without Mercy. When this particular evil faction is wiped out they all go back to their campfire to sing kumbaya again.

This attitude might be loreful but it also makes that whole area absolutely boring. In my opinion the empire rework was excellent but what we need are more enemies and threats.

In the following I want to share some ideas that could help to make the old world feel more dynamic and interesting again for the player. Interesting for Order and Evil factions at the same time, than lets be honest, both sides are nearly unplayable now.
Norsca, VC and BM are just a slog and the Empire and Bretonnia are plain boring because they have no enemies to fight.
(I used some points again from the „more Vampires“ thread I made a few days ago)

Here are my suggestions that could help to improve the Old World:

1. Karak Azul should just start with one settlement. The rest should be owned by GS and Skaven factions.

2. Vlad should own the whole province of western Sylvania and also the settlement of Niedling in Stirland. This would force the AI to expand into Stirland. (Of course the braindead VC AI needs to be fixed as well).

3. Make Mordheim a 10 slot settlement and it’s own province like Hellpit and Skavenblight. Then put a Skaven faction there.

4. Add the forest of Shadows as a new 1 settlement Province near Ostland and place a VC faction there. Zacharias the Everliving ruled this forest so a VC faction there would be loreful. Instead of a new province it could also be a new minor settlement in Ostland.

5. Add a VC faction in Middenstag.
Dieter Helsnicht terrorised Middenland so a VC faction with only Necromancer Lords would be loreful.

6. Add a VC faction in Akendorf.
Gashnag ruled over his tiny Kingdom in the BP so a VC starting there would be loreful.

7. Add a VC faction to Aquitaine.
Normally the Red Duke should be there and not in Mousillion.

8. Add a GS faction in the Brass Keep. It’s in the Mountains so it would make sense. The settlement skin should of course stay Empire like.

9. Add a Skaven faction in Ubersreik. Vermintide! Would be a good starting Enemy for Reikland.

10. Add more BM factions spawning in the Drakenwald and in Talabecland. BM hordes should spawn as fullstacks and depending on the number of turns, with better units. A new BM faction spawning with only Ungor units around turn 100 is just a joke.

11. Add more GS horde factions spawning in the empire every few turns.

12. Add the Black Chasm to the Massif Orkal with a Skaven Faction.

13. All Major Dwarf, GS and Skaven factions should start at war with each other without the chance to make peace. Its ridiculous to see Queek and Thorgrim always ending up as BFF.


I know these are a lot of points but adding some factions here and there shouldn’t be a big Deal for CA. More enemy factions are necessary to make the Empire interesting again.

So what else could be done to make the Old World great (enjoyable) again? Feel free to share your thoughts and ideas.
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Comments

  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 3,225
    edited January 30
    I thought it was Helsnicht in the Forest of Shadows. Also adding all these factions wouldn't just stop the Empire doomtide but it would make the Empire more interesting. Starting with Reikland can be quite boring because there are not much enemies in the Empire.
  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Registered Users Posts: 1,977
    The Brass Keep is actually Chaos Warriors in the lore, iirc, but that might not be doable, I don't know.
  • sophonttekssophontteks Registered Users Posts: 44
    IMO the best solution is to resurge the tides of chaos. This is supposed to be the event. The great downfall of the lands of men. Currently feels like a few errant barbarians causing mischief.
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 4,269
    edited January 30
    neodeinos said:

    I thought it was Helsnicht in the Forest of Shadows. Also adding all these factions wouldn't just stop the Empire doomtide but it would make the Empire more interesting. Starting with Reikland can be quite boring because there are not much enemies in the Empire.

    He was originally from Middenheim, but after he was detected as a Necromancer he was forced to flee into the Forest of Shadows where he build a fortress.
    Zacharias was actually his student before he got the blood Kiss by Melkhior.

    Later Helsnicht went on an undead crusade to terrorise Middenland and Zacharias took over the Fortress in the Forest of shadows.

  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 4,269

    IMO the best solution is to resurge the tides of chaos. This is supposed to be the event. The great downfall of the lands of men. Currently feels like a few errant barbarians causing mischief.

    Yes Chaos invasions are desperately needed but that wouldn’t make playing the empire more interesting. The Empire factions need starting enemies and regions to conquer.
  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 3,225
    ArneSo said:

    neodeinos said:

    I thought it was Helsnicht in the Forest of Shadows. Also adding all these factions wouldn't just stop the Empire doomtide but it would make the Empire more interesting. Starting with Reikland can be quite boring because there are not much enemies in the Empire.

    He was originally from Middenheim, but after he detected as a Necromancer he was forced to flee into the Forest of Shadows where he build a fortress.
    Zacharias was actually his student before he got the blood Kiss by Melkhior.

    Later Helsnicht went on an undead crusade to terrorise Middenland and Zacharias took over the Fortress in the Forest of shadows.

    Interesting. I didn't know much of these two before. As long as we get the Forest of Shadows I'm all for it.
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 703
    ArneSo said:

    Make Mordheim a 10 slot settlement and it’s own province like Hellpit and Skavenblight. Then put a Skaven faction there.

    Mordheim shouldn't belong to any faction. Instead it should either have a landmark for every faction, or have unique "search the ruins" quests.

  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 4,269
    neodeinos said:

    ArneSo said:

    neodeinos said:

    I thought it was Helsnicht in the Forest of Shadows. Also adding all these factions wouldn't just stop the Empire doomtide but it would make the Empire more interesting. Starting with Reikland can be quite boring because there are not much enemies in the Empire.

    He was originally from Middenheim, but after he detected as a Necromancer he was forced to flee into the Forest of Shadows where he build a fortress.
    Zacharias was actually his student before he got the blood Kiss by Melkhior.

    Later Helsnicht went on an undead crusade to terrorise Middenland and Zacharias took over the Fortress in the Forest of shadows.

    Interesting. I didn't know much of these two before. As long as we get the Forest of Shadows I'm all for it.
    From my knowledge the Forest is part of the Midden Mountains, which are just a useless part of Hochland right now. They have a similar Size like the Massif Orkal so a small Province would fit in there pretty well.
  • MrDragonMrDragon Registered Users Posts: 309
    Having recently played two co-op campaigns as Sartossa with my friend playing Isabella and Vladdydaddy, we both got sick of the campaign, installed some mods to to limit armies with TT caps because the stacks the Karak, Reikland and even Black Crag had running around were stupid.
    Second campaign I try to more aggressively support him on the mainland by making friends with Black Crag, hoping they distract the dwarves long enough for me to slip through and back up Vlad and Isabella's march on Reikland.
    I sail to Akendorf, get caught out by 8! full dwarf stacks.
    Meanwhile the VC march on Altdorf gets surrounded also.

    Now I'm not going to pretend I'm a good player, I have trouble winning a 25(me)-75(AI)% odds auto resolve half the time without playing pretty much the entire battle on slow-mo.
    My Partner however can easily beat much worse odds on regular speed but against those numbers he was also just powerless.

    Having more VC minor factions in the region would help soooooo much because right now, as an "evil" faction in the old world you are surrounded on all sides by more enemies than you can count.


    We got so fed up with it we just took a mulligan and formed the unlikely alliance of Lokhir and Teclis instead to be as far away from all the friggin dwarves as possible.


    Side note: could the AI stop declaring war and sending doomstacks to you just for existing as an evil player faction?
    In our Lokhir/Teclis campaign, because of our naval/trading adventures we pretty much have contact with 80% of factions and 60% are at war with me despite me never having even been near their continent, let alone their provinces.
    Cus even in that campaign, by turn 40, the Karaz-a-Karak declared war on me... I actually have agents parked in the ocean because I suspect that any day now they will send a ship my way and I need a few turns notice to pull armies back from my campaign against Itza.
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 4,269
    MrDragon said:

    Having recently played two co-op campaigns as Sartossa with my friend playing Isabella and Vladdydaddy, we both got sick of the campaign, installed some mods to to limit armies with TT caps because the stacks the Karak, Reikland and even Black Crag had running around were stupid.
    Second campaign I try to more aggressively support him on the mainland by making friends with Black Crag, hoping they distract the dwarves long enough for me to slip through and back up Vlad and Isabella's march on Reikland.
    I sail to Akendorf, get caught out by 8! full dwarf stacks.
    Meanwhile the VC march on Altdorf gets surrounded also.

    Now I'm not going to pretend I'm a good player, I have trouble winning a 25(me)-75(AI)% odds auto resolve half the time without playing pretty much the entire battle on slow-mo.
    My Partner however can easily beat much worse odds on regular speed but against those numbers he was also just powerless.

    Having more VC minor factions in the region would help soooooo much because right now, as an "evil" faction in the old world you are surrounded on all sides by more enemies than you can count.


    We got so fed up with it we just took a mulligan and formed the unlikely alliance of Lokhir and Teclis instead to be as far away from all the friggin dwarves as possible.


    Side note: could the AI stop declaring war and sending doomstacks to you just for existing as an evil player faction?
    In our Lokhir/Teclis campaign, because of our naval/trading adventures we pretty much have contact with 80% of factions and 60% are at war with me despite me never having even been near their continent, let alone their provinces.
    Cus even in that campaign, by turn 40, the Karaz-a-Karak declared war on me... I actually have agents parked in the ocean because I suspect that any day now they will send a ship my way and I need a few turns notice to pull armies back from my campaign against Itza.

    The Situation you described here perfectly shows the current problem. Order factions don't have any real Enemies in their Teritory so they will hunt every evil faction over the whole map as soon as they have contact with it.
  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 3,225
    SerPus said:

    ArneSo said:

    Make Mordheim a 10 slot settlement and it’s own province like Hellpit and Skavenblight. Then put a Skaven faction there.

    Mordheim shouldn't belong to any faction. Instead it should either have a landmark for every faction, or have unique "search the ruins" quests.

    Nah, it should be Skaven.
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 4,269
    SerPus said:

    ArneSo said:

    Make Mordheim a 10 slot settlement and it’s own province like Hellpit and Skavenblight. Then put a Skaven faction there.

    Mordheim shouldn't belong to any faction. Instead it should either have a landmark for every faction, or have unique "search the ruins" quests.

    Its a warpstone infested and ruined hell of a city. Humans shouldn't be able to live there anymore.
    Right now its just a free settlement for Ostermark or Stirland without any penalties.
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 703
    neodeinos said:

    Nah, it should be Skaven.

    That doesn't make any sense.
  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 3,225
    SerPus said:

    neodeinos said:

    Nah, it should be Skaven.

    That doesn't make any sense.
    It used to be Skaven so I don't really care if it makes no sense right now. It's not a big deal.
  • _Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Registered Users Posts: 1,118
    Introducing Dilemma events of raiding DE and Norscan. Those can spawn as new factions like BM and SorC hordes or mercenary.
    They should mainly raid or raze and attack coastal settlement mainly of Bretonnia, TEB and Empire, but around the workd is possible too (except naggaroth^^)

    Maybe something similar with a newly spawned skaven army in a rondom city without skaven underempire. This can effect nearly everywhere and should happen to the 5 biggest empires in the cutrent campaign - so minor factions cant be wiped out.
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 703
    neodeinos said:

    It used to be Skaven

    What?

  • MrDragonMrDragon Registered Users Posts: 309
    I literally in the Lokhir campaign went as far as to quickly declare war on Black Crag, Sylvania, the Dreadfleet and a few other "evil" armies purely because I knew they wouldn't be a threat even if they tried something and it gets me credit with all the "good" factions.
    I'm actually at +34 points now with Ulthuan factions, just 27 points to find and maybe I can get Avelorn and Lothern off my shoreline. Mostly farming co-op battles with Teclis for points and sending them gold. But I just want them to leave me alone.
    Dwarves no such luck because I'm only at war with factions they've never heard about. (And they hate Teclis anyway.)
  • Nico_NINico_NI Registered Users Posts: 150
    With unit caps, and more roaming BM warherds (I havn't seen them in TWW 2), and better AI for "bad" factions.
  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 3,225
    edited January 30
    SerPus said:

    neodeinos said:

    It used to be Skaven

    What?

    Clan Eshin held Mordheim for some time. So putting some Skaven here it's not that much of a stretch.
  • MrDragonMrDragon Registered Users Posts: 309
    edited January 30
    Nico_NI said:

    With unit caps, and more roaming BM warherds (I havn't seen them in TWW 2), and better AI for "bad" factions.

    They generally exist for about 2 turns minimum to 10 turns maximum unless you babysit them by killing any stack that tries to take them out. But the ungrateful gits will just end up raiding you anyway, even if you're allied with them. I tried.
  • _Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Registered Users Posts: 1,118
    Like the chaos invasio nevent, they could introduce a little bit smaller Events of spawning several armies of BM or Orcs (Real AI WAAAGH) randomly in the old world.

    So those would have a better chance to survive and make trouble.
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 4,269
    _Mad_D0c_ said:

    Introducing Dilemma events of raiding DE and Norscan. Those can spawn as new factions like BM and SorC hordes or mercenary.
    They should mainly raid or raze and attack coastal settlement mainly of Bretonnia, TEB and Empire, but around the workd is possible too (except naggaroth^^)

    Maybe something similar with a newly spawned skaven army in a rondom city without skaven underempire. This can effect nearly everywhere and should happen to the 5 biggest empires in the cutrent campaign - so minor factions cant be wiped out.

    Interesting Idea to slow down steamrollers!
    Something similar to the Chaos invasion, but only focused on 1 faction would be nice.

    So if Dwarfs conquer a certain amount of settlements they would have to face a major GS incursion. That incursion should work like the ritual armies in the Vortex.

    Those incursions should be thematically and unique for every race:
    - Skaven for LM and GS
    - DE Raiders for Bretonnia
    - Chaos Incursion for HE and DE
    - BM Brayherds for WE and Empire

    It wouldn't make the Empire more interesting but it would slow down Steamrolling races like HE and Dwarfs.
  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 703
    neodeinos said:

    Clan Eshin held Mordheim for some time.

    Where is that from?

  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 3,225
    _Mad_D0c_ said:

    Introducing Dilemma events of raiding DE and Norscan. Those can spawn as new factions like BM and SorC hordes or mercenary.
    They should mainly raid or raze and attack coastal settlement mainly of Bretonnia, TEB and Empire, but around the workd is possible too (except naggaroth^^)

    Maybe something similar with a newly spawned skaven army in a rondom city without skaven underempire. This can effect nearly everywhere and should happen to the 5 biggest empires in the cutrent campaign - so minor factions cant be wiped out.

    Also while we're on the Dark Elves. Give Lokhir the shipbuilding mechanic and put him on his bloody black ark and move him in one of the coastline of the old world. It would be so much more interesting than sharing a province with Skrolk and you could have a start a bit like Noctilus where you could chose where to settle. Or if you prefer you could just sack the coast of the old world, live like a pirate. Lokhir has so much potential but CA just wasted it, hopefully they'll rework him during the Warhammer 3 cycle, it should be easy to do.
  • _Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Registered Users Posts: 1,118
    ArneSo said:

    _Mad_D0c_ said:

    Introducing Dilemma events of raiding DE and Norscan. Those can spawn as new factions like BM and SorC hordes or mercenary.
    They should mainly raid or raze and attack coastal settlement mainly of Bretonnia, TEB and Empire, but around the workd is possible too (except naggaroth^^)

    Maybe something similar with a newly spawned skaven army in a rondom city without skaven underempire. This can effect nearly everywhere and should happen to the 5 biggest empires in the cutrent campaign - so minor factions cant be wiped out.

    Interesting Idea to slow down steamrollers!
    Something similar to the Chaos invasion, but only focused on 1 faction would be nice.

    So if Dwarfs conquer a certain amount of settlements they would have to face a major GS incursion. That incursion should work like the ritual armies in the Vortex.

    Those incursions should be thematically and unique for every race:
    - Skaven for LM and GS
    - DE Raiders for Bretonnia
    - Chaos Incursion for HE and DE
    - BM Brayherds for WE and Empire

    It wouldn't make the Empire more interesting but it would slow down Steamrolling races like HE and Dwarfs.
    Once done they could easily copy paste them for fitting factions. Empire as most diverse/played faction and giant land should get
    BM brayherds, GS WAAAGHS, DE raider, Norscan raider and skaven dilemma.

    But this should happen to big AI factions too.
  • ChesterMcGirrChesterMcGirr Registered Users Posts: 383
    ArneSo said:



    Here are my suggestions that could help to improve the Old World:

    1. Karak Azul should just start with one settlement. The rest should be owned by GS and Skaven factions.

    2. Vlad should own the whole province of western Sylvania and also the settlement of Niedling in Stirland. This would force the AI to expand into Stirland. (Of course the braindead VC AI needs to be fixed as well).

    3. Make Mordheim a 10 slot settlement and it’s own province like Hellpit and Skavenblight. Then put a Skaven faction there.

    4. Add the forest of Shadows as a new 1 settlement Province near Ostland and place a VC faction there. Zacharias the Everliving ruled this forest so a VC faction there would be loreful. Instead of a new province it could also be a new minor settlement in Ostland.

    5. Add a VC faction in Middenstag.
    Dieter Helsnicht terrorised Middenland so a VC faction with only Necromancer Lords would be loreful.

    6. Add a VC faction in Akendorf.
    Gashnag ruled over his tiny Kingdom in the BP so a VC starting there would be loreful.

    7. Add a VC faction to Aquitaine.
    Normally the Red Duke should be there and not in Mousillion.

    8. Add a GS faction in the Brass Keep. It’s in the Mountains so it would make sense. The settlement skin should of course stay Empire like.

    9. Add a Skaven faction in Ubersreik. Vermintide! Would be a good starting Enemy for Reikland.

    10. Add more BM factions spawning in the Drakenwald and in Talabecland. BM hordes should spawn as fullstacks and depending on the number of turns, with better units. A new BM faction spawning with only Ungor units around turn 100 is just a joke.

    11. Add more GS horde factions spawning in the empire every few turns.

    12. Add the Black Chasm to the Massif Orkal with a Skaven Faction.

    13. All Major Dwarf, GS and Skaven factions should start at war with each other without the chance to make peace. Its ridiculous to see Queek and Thorgrim always ending up as BFF.


    I know these are a lot of points but adding some factions here and there shouldn’t be a big Deal for CA. More enemy factions are necessary to make the Empire interesting again.

    So what else could be done to make the Old World great (enjoyable) again? Feel free to share your thoughts and ideas.

    1. Sure. Be good if it was a mix within and across provinces of greenies and rats to make things spicy.

    2. Agree that Vlad should have western sylvania. Not so sure about holding land in stirland at campaign start (isn't Mannfred the rightful elector?)

    3. YES. A strong skaven presence right up the empire's grill is sorely needed. No reason the skaven and vamps can't work together short term to pressure the bucketload of settlements now in the empire since a few updates ago.

    4. Absolute yes to Zacharias joining ME. Keep Ostland on it's toes. They have a tendency to only fight kislev right now I think.

    5. Not sure about this one given the orks on Middenlands doorstep. I think I would prefer a beastman hideout/dedicated spawn to destabilise Middenland.

    6. I think this might be a bit much if Vlad and Akendorf VC ganged up on Averland. The mad count has to have a dlc eventually right?

    7. Not sure CA will move it now, don't really mind as a player.

    8. I thought chaos were more relevant to the brass keep than the greenies? Don't know the lore enough to contribute sorry,

    9. Would prefer rats start in Azgaraz and have skarsnik moved to 8 Peaks. Given CA has been playing around with dynamic starts it's not unreasonable that AI Skarsnik might get moved but player Skarsnik won't.

    10. Not sure about spawning with full stacks. Rando AI build orders might mean outlying towns just get obliterated by persistent BM spawns.

    11. Maaaaybe only if greenskin faction controls an entire mountain province bordering the empire?

    12. More rats yes-yes! But they should perhaps not be too friendly with Ikkit.

    13. Yes! Rats greenies and dwarfs should all be stuck in a perpetual 3 way once they meet. Maybe CA will need to tone down the mutual enemy diplomacy bonus.

  • arghozarghoz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 331
    edited January 30
    The main thing it needs is more stuff happening on the campaign map, some big scary events (like chaos invasion) and some campaign mechanics for the old factions that has none yet.

    Also, some more sense of progression. Just having a text say 'destroy these 6 factions' is not very interesting, you should have something that is more impactfull to work towards. The empire getting some benefits for taking sylvania is a example of this.
    Its one of the reasons i like the vampire coast campaign, it has interesting mechanics and a sense of progression other than just taking x amount of settlements.

    For dwarfs for example this could be reclaiming old lost dwarf settlements and/or finding lost artifacts etc. With something interesting happening when you manage to do it. Bit like Belegar taking Karak Eight Peaks, but more since thats rather underwhelming. I would like to see more scripted battles, especially scripted sieges.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    Ever since they added that new section to ME Karak Azul has been less of an issue imo, they shouldn't start with only 1 settlement, 2-3 would be fine (less lorefull maybe but more survivable)

    Bretonnia and the Empire actually have had on and off wars with eachother, the reason they become friends so quick is because of their mutual hatred of Norsca and Kemmler.

    Kemmler needs reworked into something closer to Cataph's mod: needs to be a nomad with a unique roster and so on. Buffing his ai again and allowing it to move freely (and perhaps respawn like GS and BM would be a good way to give the ordertide a run for their money.

    Vlad is fine where he is but his settlement needs to be a major one or have more natural defenses. Him and the other VC need to be made more aggressive again.

    The brass keep is traditionally a WoC holdout, so if we're going to add anyone (and I think we should) then it should be WoC. There is also a loose affiliation to Azag as well (the original master of the crown of sorcery lived in the Brass Keep and Azag led his Waaagh down this area and got killed, so it could be a potential start position for Azag as well (since everyone's struggling to find where to put him).

    Regardless of the "who" I think the Brass Keep should be turned into a major settlement or into something like the Moot (for survivability sake and so corruption from this area doesn't spread as quick to other provinces).

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    We could do with more forest settlements but I think they should be a new type of settlement that's hidden from most factions by default. Wood Elves, Beastmen, Greenskins and Vampire Counts should be the only ones that can make/use these settlements and for everyone else, they need to find them with heroes like searching for an Undercity.

    This would be way more thematic and would help them be alot stronger than they otherwise would be.
  • _Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Registered Users Posts: 1,118


    Kemmler needs reworked into something closer to Cataph's mod: needs to be a nomad with a unique roster and so on. Buffing his ai again and allowing it to move freely (and perhaps respawn like GS and BM would be a good way to give the ordertide a run for their money.

    Thats great. CA shoukd integrate ann algorithm who checks which undead is wiped out by a specific turn and let him come back.

    This can happen in two ways.

    For example Vlad can spawn in his main province with some armies.

    or a more subtle way of a Dillemma chain, where at first comes a bad omen dilemma with vampiric corruption +5 in a handfull random provinces. Than some random dilemmas of something is found pay the scouts and led to an end of spawning different revolting vampire factions on different locations with Vlad among them.
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