Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

How to stop Ordertide (Rebalance, New Settlements and Factions)

SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
edited February 8 in General Discussion
Total War Warhammer has been plagued by this problem on and off for a while now. There are far to many 'good guy' factions in the Old World and because they all have a common enemy, they get on like a house on fire. Vampire Counts only have about 7 factions across the whole Mortal Empires map (mostly with 1 settlement) and CA made their AI really passive a while back, so they don't stand a chance. Similarly, the Greenskins are very weak at the moment thanks to their infighting, weak mechanics and being surrounded by stronger Order factions.

Some say this will all work out in WH3, when Chaos comes to ruin everything, but what can be done in the meantime?


Simple Diplomacy Rebalances


Not everyone gets on as well in the lore as they do in the game. The Bretonnian’s and the Empire are at war on and off, Toddy in Middenland nearly had a civil war against Karl Franz...Averland literally did have a Civil war with him and so on. How could we affect the map so that the goodies don't get along so well from this basic standpoint?

-Don't let mutual enemies drown out past grievances as much as they currently do. At the moment, Skaven and the Dwarfs are able to become BFF's simply because they share a common enemy. This is also the main reason all of the Order factions end up making daisy chains together and singing kumbaya. Reduce the effects of these kinds of diplomatic actions, make factions react more to things you do for them and their allies specifically and make some alliances harder/impossible to forge.

-Set Reikland and Middenland on a course to Civil War from turn 1, give them both a stronger aversion to each other that diminishes over time, or has to be rectified with a quest or something.

-Do the same with Reikland and Averland.

-Give Bretonnia and the Empire factions a natural aversion to one another.

-Karak Hirn should have a natural aversion to the Dwarfs traditional allies (Empire, Bretonnia) because King Alrik is an extremist who never forgives a Grudge, Unlike Thorgrim who is more willing to negotiate. This could make Karak Hirn a real issue when it comes to diplomacy between the Dwarfs and their allies, as Hirn could drag the other Dwarf factions to war with the Empire and cause their relations to plummet.

-More traditional Holds like Karak Hirn, Azul and Belegar's faction should have a natural aversion to more radical reformist Holds like Zhufbar and Barak Varr, causing a rift in the Karaz Ankor.

-Gelt and Wissenland should be at odds due to his rivalry with Elsbeth von Draken. (they sort of already do have a rivalry).

-Gelt and Nordland should also hate each other, and Nordland should have a greater aversion to Marienberg.

-Nordland and Hochland should hate each other since Nordland tried to go to war with them not so long ago.

-Tilea and Estalia should hate each other because of their religious differences and the fact their city-states war with each other on a regular basis.


I think doing this would be a good start towards making the Old World a bit more war-torn and give the evil factions a fighting chance. Some rivalries do exist already in the Empire, but it seems to just be that everyone hates Talabecland and they all bond over fighting them. Typically, 1 Empire faction gets taken out, but the rest fall in line (either way, if you've got confederations turned on it’s only a matter of time. More extreme division would help fix this somewhat).

Now onto the New factions and Settlements, CA could add to really spice up the Old World and give the Order factions more problems:

Cragmere (Karak Varn)




Backstory:

The vast lake in the image above is known as "Black Water" (or Varn Drazh in the Dwarf's language) and it was created thousands of years ago when a meteor struck the planet and the resulting crater was flooded with the water that runs down from the surrounding mountains. This Meteor contained one of the strongest metals in the Warhammer World and the Dwarfs of the Worlds Edge Mountains built many settlements in the surrounding area to try and carefully extract as much of it as they could (This is why Zhufbar and Karaz-a-Karak became 2 of the strongest and most wealthy holds in the Karaz Ankor).

Karak Varn was once one of the strongest of these holds, as it was built overlooking the great lake and was able to mine the most of its many riches, but sadly the Dwarfs greed got the better of them, as they dug their caverns so deep that they ended up burrowing under the great lake, and thus when the Time of Woes fell upon the Dwarfs, the Earthquakes caused the lake to flood the lower floors of Karak Varn and the remaining Dwarfs were caught between Greenskins above ground and Skaven bellow. Many have tried and failed to reclaim this hold and its many riches, but they have all inevitably failed, and today the Skaven (and things yet worse) still hold dominion over the once great Karak.

Since it has been lost, Karak Varn has become known as "Cragmere" and is said to be ruled by a hulking beast of a Skaven, known as "Warlord Fisk". Fisk holds an unsavoury reputation amongst the Skaven race, as he has a great fondness for large and noisy weaponry, purchasing many such weapons from Clan Skyre. It was whispered on the Underway that he liked to coffle his prisoners before strafing the lines with Warpstone shells, not letting up until the weapon detonated in its unfortunate handler's paws.

The Warlord was a hulking giant of a Skaven, bedecked in silver plate scoured to an impossible shine. A pair of segmented horns spiralled down from the side of his helm, and red eyes gleamed from beneath its thick iron brow. His fur carried an unhealthy green-tinge, lending him the repulsive appearance of a hulking Orc-thing.


Implementation:

CA Could make Cragmere a 10 slot Major settlement all to itself and place Warlord Fisk within it as a really strong Skaven faction in the early game, with access to lots of Skryre units. Fisk could be programmed to be aggressive and reach havoc on the surrounding Dwarfs, while also having a really bulky garrison, so he can't be easily taken out in the early game. (Cragmere is out of the way for most factions anyway, so it'd be naturally protected from the AI in the same way Nagashazzir is at the moment). Skaven, Dwarf and Greenskin factions who take this settlement would gain access to a unique building chain "Gromril Mine of Varn Drazh" which would act as a special Iron mine/gold mine.

However, because the Hold is flooded, Skaven and Greenskin factions would never be able to fully utilize all 10 slots of the settlement (and never be able to fully upgrade the unique building chain; that would be left to the Dwarfs who, upon recolonizing it, could hire Dwarf Engineers to drain the caverns and probe its depths, as mentioned here:

"The Dwarfs have relinquished the corrupted stronghold, but haven’t forgotten the precious Gromril within its mines - expeditions frequently brave the terror of the dark beneath Karak Varn for the remnants of the Gromril still to be found in the deeper passages. Dwarf Engineers have built many cunning devices to enable the Dwarfs to probe the depths, even those underwater, where the richest and as yet unplumbed workings can be found. "

This would be a great way to give the Dwarfs something else to think about, add in a piece of their history and Fisk could be a great little Boss Battle type challenge for Karaz-a-Karak or any other Dwarf faction in the area. (he could also be an interesting playable lord, but I suppose the Skaven are fully booked for present and future lord options ;_;)


Mordheim




Backstory:

Mordheim, the City of the Dammed is the former capital of Ostermark and the main focus of the GW spin-off Tabletop game by the same name. The City was once the mightiest in the Eastern Empire, being the only settlement large enough to withstand the onslaught brought by Gorbad Ironclaws Waaagh during the time of the 3 Emperors, but it fell into a corrupt and decadent period when a Twin Tailed Comet appeared in the nights sky. Many hailed it as a sign of the return of Sigmar and that he would return in the City of Mordheim, so thousands upon thousands of people migrated to the city, filling it well overcapacity.

The overpopulated city quickly became ungovernable and descended into madness as food stocks ran low, crime ran high and the seeds of Chaos were secretly sewn within its walls. Finally, on new year’s eve, the comet was said to arrive with Sigmar at its helm...the comet arrived alright, but there was no Sigmar in sight and the city was reduced to rubble in an instant.


Implementation:

Clan Eshen had an infamous under-city here during and after the Events of Mordheim, with the Clan being led by Executioner Veskit, the only other real eligible Clan Eshen Lord that might make an appearance in a future DLC (he's a Skaven Cyborg Assassin).

Whether or not CA puts him in the game, they should turn Mordheim into a 10 slot major settlement and place an "Eshen Clan nest" faction there to give the Empire more to think about within their borders.


Bitter Stink and/or Rat Rock




Backstory:

Bitter Stink, sometimes known as Bitter Stump, is a Skaven stronghold located within the marshes of the Wasteland, controlled by the Grey Seers of Clan Scruten. Marienburg, being the infamous trading port of the Old World, lies in the midst of the stinking swamplands called the Cursed Marshes. It is within these marshes that the Skaven of Clan Scruten have their hidden stronghold, from where they launch their insidious raids beneath Marienburg and its surroundings. Around the year 2000 IC, the Clan was led away from Skavenblight by the Grey Seer Kritislik. Deep beneath the marshes of Marienburg he led them, into the ancient and abandoned Skaven stronghold known simply as Rat Rock, to the north-east of the human city.

It is said that several Warlord clans once competed for dominance within the keep and it was once teeming with thousands of Skaven and their slaves. However, the stronghold was doomed once a new threat became apparent. The rival Warlords united, combining their strengths to fight this menace, yet it was to no avail. Who this foe was, has been covered by the shroud of time, though stories tell of some form of daemonic, cyclopean swamp-dwellers (the Fimir).

It is said that these ancient daemons were somehow a part of the marsh itself, able to control the mists and command the creatures that dwelt within them. Whoever this enemy was, the locals believe that the daemons had the Skaven wiped each other out. Marienburgers fear the swamplands, and venture into them only when necessary as a result. The Skaven of Clan Scruten take advantage of this, and many of their activities are attributed to mythical daemons of the swamp - whether they ever existed or not.


Implementation:

The Wasteland is meant to be inhabited by many Skaven Clans based out of the hidden Strongholds "Bitter Stink" and "Rat Rock". Adding one or both of these Strongholds to the Wasteland and an Undercity on Marrienberg, all under Clan Scruten's control, would make this side of the Empire a bit more hectic.


Black Chasm and the Barrows of Cuileux




Black Chasm


Backstory:

In ages past, The Black Chasm was one of the first places Clan Pestilens colonized outside of Skavenblight (Before their fateful trip to Lustria). The Clan constructed many fortresses within the infinite depths of the Chasm but abandoned their holdings when they made their journey across to the New World.

Clan Eshen stepped in and colonized the derelict fortresses, but when Pestilens returned as the plague-ridden monstrosities we know them today, Eshen refused to give up their holdings and so the two Clans have been fighting ever since. In the Modern day, Pestilens has regained much of its strength and both Clans hold roughly equal control of the Chasm's Under-Empire, with the help of their allies (Eshen relies on Clan Moulders support, while Pestilens is supported by their uneasy alliance with Clan Flem).


Implementation:

There are a few options here: They could add a "Pestilens/Eshen Clan Nest" to the Chasm, just like they did with Rictus in Crookback Mountain, they could add Clan Flem here, or even place a Skaven LL here at some point if they saw fit.

Barrows of Cuileux


Backstory:

Cuileux was one of the Dukedoms of Bretonnia that was completely destroyed and assimilated by Qunelles in the year 900IC. The Barrows of Cuileux is the site of the last battle between the Knights of Cuileux and the Greenskin horde that destroyed their Kingdom, and it is where those brave nobles who stood against the tide that day find their rest.

The barrows are scattered over a wide area north of the Gilleau river, some in the Forest of Châlons and some in the mountains of the Massif Orcal. A typical barrow has about twenty burial chambers linked by tunnels, but some are far, far larger. Adventurers claim to have seen a barrow the size of a town within the forest but said that they were driven off by the Undead guarding it. Most of the barrows in the lowlands are now merely empty shells, long looted of grave goods by Orcs and Bretonnians alike. There are a few with Undead guardians, and these still survive intact.


Implementation:

Here CA could give the Greenskins of Massif Orcal a bit more survivability, by giving them another settlement, or alternatively they could place another Undead faction here (it's quite Close to Aquitaine, so if we ever see that region fleshed out and CA puts the Red Duke in his rightful place, this could be another settlement they give him or a generic Vampire faction that could make for an early game ally of his).


As a couple more suggestions: add another settlement to the Leaf-Cutters Orc tribe within the Drakwald forest to make them stronger in preparation for a potential Snagla Grobspit DLC being placed there and Move Skarsnik to a better start position and give Karak Azgaraz to the Skullmasherz or a random Skaven faction.

What do you think though? and would you add anything to this list? let me know below as always :)
Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
«1

Comments

  • DeathsDayOffDeathsDayOff Registered Users Posts: 420
    Best way to stop the order tide is pretty simple, first nerd dwarfs AR, since the AI uses only AR, nerfing that will make dwarfs less powerful, empire needs to not Confederate the entire empire in the span of 8 turns, Britannia isn't that bad, they get strong, but only because the no real enemy **** with them, so nerfing the ally's will nerf them, high elves should just be removed from the game, because **** elves, also side note, need to lower the rate that people like eachother for being at war with a common foe, because it pretty much ensures dwarfs become friends with filthy skaven
  • EterlikEterlik Registered Users Posts: 92
    I like many of those ideas. Especially cragmire sounds interesting.
    Down side of it, it could lead to an orc and/or skaventide if all of it would be implemented.

    On the other hand a skaventide might not be as bad ^^
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 5,947
    edited February 8
    I think your diplomacy changes are too extreme in a wrong way.

    The Empire should not be in a Civil War at start. Karl Franz was elected by the entire Electorate almost unanimously. And even then especially not Averland.

    A "natural" aversion doesn't exist between Empire and Bretonnia and really shouldn't. They have been allies more often than not.

    King Alrik still welcomes all other races into his hold. He does settle grudges with great fervor but he's still a king of an open hold.

    I think Nordland vs anyone hasn't yet happened in canon until after Karl Franz's coronation. Although I think Marienburg already has an aversion with the rest of the Empire.

    Elspeth isn't in command of Wissenland. In fact, neither is Emmanuelle. This does make sense since she only came about a year later after Franz. I'm also of the opinion that any Nuln based character will be on an expedition in game 3 sooner than standing around in Nuln when we already have Reikland and Gold Order as starting locations.

    Also despite your talks about Elspeth's popularity you have yet to write her name right.

    Tilea and Estalia follow the same goddess. The only city states that are at war are the ones in western Tilea from what I know. And that place is under Estalia right now. Besides, individual city states don't actually have much interest in the state of other city states. If anything, it's low level rivalry and it doesn't solve much as both Estalia and Tiles die to Skryre/Dreadfleet/Khazrak and Sartosa respectively.



    The one thing diplomacy wise I would do is remove or limit Shield of Civilization trait.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 6,996
    Interesting ideas. Beware that you don't give away too many 10-slots, though.

    One thing worth noting is that the beta patch is supposed to at least reduce the passivity of vampire counts, since as I understand it they were one of the factions affected by the "only one army" bug.
  • Pr4vdaPr4vda Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 977
    I do not agree with the diplomacy aspect. The empire looks now like a real empire. Do not destroy that. Also the good races, even if they could still fight each other for some reasons, will always choose to fight the bad guys if they appears.

    However, the additions of the various GS and Skaven settlements would be awesome. Well done ! Could you add in the same way Putrid Swamp and those in the badlands ?
    Team Dawis

    Dawis shall purge all their fallen Karaks, with the blood of the Greeskins and the skavens !
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    edited February 8
    @Crossil

    I didn't mean full-blown civil war, but they should be unfriendly at least. When I said that they should be on the path to civil war, I was Implying that when you play as Franz, Middenland should be your biggest worry and one of the factions you most have to worry about. As of right now, the Empire already fight each other every game to varying degrees. are you suggesting they never fight? if so, how would you tend to ordertide?

    Diplomacy shouldn't be 1 to 1 translated into the game, that would be far too restrictive, I'm just bringing up how making tweaks to fit the lore could help the game.

    Karl Wasn't Elected unanimously, Todbringer Was only 2 votes shy of becoming Emperor, meaning they had roughly equal votes.

    Tilea and Estalia war with themselves and each other over cultural and religious differences all the time. Also just for ambition, like why all the city-states fight. Tileans believe that Myrmidia was born Tilean and conquered Estalia. Estalians believe the opposite and they've fought many wars over this, including recently, when the head of the cult of Myrmidia defected from Tilea to Estalia. Their in-fighting is the reason why they get wiped out during the End Times, because they spent so much time fighting themselves and each other that they never dealt with Skavenblight which was built in the ruins of their peoples united old capital.

    The Timeline can and will be skewed to fit CA's needs. Vlad wasn't resurrected yet, but there he is. Repanse's story happened much earlier but there she is (obviously this has limits). In-game 3, if we get the End Times, will CA kill off Azag and Volkmar? Will they change Tyrion and Malekith? Besides, a -20 aversion isn't something most people would question or know the reason behind.

    Bretonnian's and the Empire have wared on and off and there is a cultural barrier. They aren't outright enemies but aren't best friends either. There isn't a way for them to stay neutral so they need something to set them apart from one another more and the only way to do that at the moment would be with some kind of -15 aversion due to cultural differences sort of thing.

    Most people call her Elsbeth because that's the normal spelling of how you say per name. Same with Edvard van der Krall, I would not begrudge anyone from calling him "Edward" or Markus Wulfheart instead of Wulfhart. I'm also dyslexic so cheers for that :)

    Nuln should be an expedition, yes, but I'm talking about balance right now, and I don't see why Making them at odds with each other is unfair. Elsbeth is still working within and around Nuln, Shes still very connected to the nobility and still one of Emanuelle's most trusted advisors. Nuln, in general, is very suspect because Emanuelle has Karl in her pocket and is trying to make the City her own personal kingdom with its own vote and everything. In Emanuelle's negligence, she has also formed a council of Merchants to rule in her sted. These merchants are rife with corruption and many are actual crime lords, so I think Gelt has alot to be wary of, where franz doesn't.

    It specifically says in his lore that "He has maintained tradition in spite of having to deal with other races who come to trade with Karak Hirn" Implying he's an isolationist who, despite being in constant contact with other cultures, refuses to allow other cultures to settle in, refuses to dilute his peoples traditions and procedures for the sake of getting on better with the other races. It also says that he will seek out every grudge and slight with a single-minded fervor and never forgive or negotiate anything, where Thorgrim and other kings might be more forgiving in considering a grudge settled, Alrik demands blood for blood, gold for gold. Its easy to see how this could translate to him being more hostile to even allies of the Dwarfs, where Thorgrim and others wouldn't be (I'm sure it says that outright somewhere although it escapes me where).

    Averland may have been a misstep, I thought I remembered Marius starting a rebellion against Franz when he was leading crazy campaigns all over the place, but I may have misconstrued that with Marius quelling a rebellion and not starting one. My mistake.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    Draxynnic said:

    Interesting ideas. Beware that you don't give away too many 10-slots, though.

    One thing worth noting is that the beta patch is supposed to at least reduce the passivity of vampire counts, since as I understand it they were one of the factions affected by the "only one army" bug.

    I think Varn, Black Chasm and Midenheim would be reasonable candidates for 10 slots IMO, a big reason for this would just be survivability: alot of the evil factions in the old world at the moment are sitting in places like Musillon, surrounded by bigger stronger enemies.
  • Lin_HuichiLin_Huichi Registered Users Posts: 384
    Green skin patch should change this anyway. The Chaos invasion is a joke atm, needs to be 5x or 10x stronger. Stuff like military actions against enables campaigns where Tyrion allies with Morathi, and generally makes it easier to make friends.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    Pr4vda said:

    I do not agree with the diplomacy aspect. The empire looks now like a real empire. Do not destroy that. Also the good races, even if they could still fight each other for some reasons, will always choose to fight the bad guys if they appears.

    However, the additions of the various GS and Skaven settlements would be awesome. Well done ! Could you add in the same way Putrid Swamp and those in the badlands ?

    Yeah I could do, though not this very moment. I wasn't planning on doing this, I just happened upon the Lore of one of these places and remembered all the other places I'd seen in the Old World that could use an extra settlement. Do you know of any other Locations like this in the Mortal Empires Map?
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,457

    Most people call her Elsbeth because that's the normal spelling of how you say per name. Same with Edvard van der Krall, I would not begrudge anyone from calling him "Edward" or Markus Wulfheart instead of Wulfhart. I'm also dyslexic so cheers for that :)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edvard
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elspeth
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    @TheGuardianOfMetal

    I'm not disagreeing, I'm saying that those are very strange spellings that most people wouldn't use (and evidently don't use).

    This is a public forum, we don't have to be so strict and formal. If you still understood who I meant then there is no issue, the words did their job.
  • spaspa Registered Users Posts: 89
    This is really overcomplicating it. Just buff the evil factions that always get wiped out to the level of Ordertide. You can see it works by using the mod that buffs/nerfs given factions (it's called Unnatural Selection). There's a 'settlements owned' chart on the mod page that shows it balances out nicely. Therefore good guys can have their alliance, but not overstomp anything with it. Additional bonus is there's no need for implementing some silly civil wars.

    I wholeheartedly suggest you try out Unnatural Selection, this will completely eliminate your annoyance with the Ordertide, and we won't have to post the same topics on the forum all the time. Download one now, get a Bretonnian peasant free!
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    edited February 8
    spa said:

    This is really overcomplicating it. Just buff the evil factions that always get wiped out to the level of Ordertide. You can see it works by using the mod that buffs/nerfs given factions (it's called Unnatural Selection). There's a 'settlements owned' chart on the mod page that shows it balances out nicely. Therefore good guys can have their alliance, but not overstomp anything with it. Additional bonus is there's no need for implementing some silly civil wars.

    I wholeheartedly suggest you try out Unnatural Selection, this will completely eliminate your annoyance with the Ordertide, and we won't have to post the same topics on the forum all the time. Download one now, get a Bretonnian peasant free!

    I didn't mean a proper civil war as a mechanic or anything, I was just suggesting some loreful reasons to make some factions not get along as well. I apologize if it was phrased poorly. We could just buff the Evil factions but then it might swing the other way again. The reason I put forward some of these Ideas is that it could force more in-fighting amongst the Order factions (the Evil factions have to deal with fighting each other as well as the Order factions most of the time). The Dwarfs, Empire and Bretonnia all fight amongst themselves to varying degrees as well as fighting their enemies (sometimes they even refuse to unite against a common foe, like with the Dwarfs, who are so stubborn, they will fight amongst themselves to settle a grudge, even when Greenskins are outside the door).
  • spaspa Registered Users Posts: 89
    Yea I get it, but thare's a lot of gameplay choices to consider here. Maybe I also didn't put in in a most specific frame. Say you play on legendary as Chaos or Norsca - if we make Empire provinces fight each other, this would make conquering Empire really easy. When I play on legendary, I want them united. If someone wants more loreful experience and is playing normal, then sure, bring on the civil wars and some lore-flavoured texts with it.

    Yet, in a case presented above, this mechanic can not exist on all difficulty levels (or the player should be able to turn it on and off), as it would disturb the balance of the game (make legendary too easy, for instance). And obviously, implementing something specifically for a given difficulty level is harder than implementing it for all the difficulty levels.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,457
    spa said:

    Yea I get it, but thare's a lot of gameplay choices to consider here. Maybe I also didn't put in in a most specific frame. Say you play on legendary as Chaos or Norsca - if we make Empire provinces fight each other, this would make conquering Empire really easy. When I play on legendary, I want them united. If someone wants more loreful experience and is playing normal, then sure, bring on the civil wars and some lore-flavoured texts with it.

    Yet, in a case presented above, this mechanic can not exist on all difficulty levels (or the player should be able to turn it on and off), as it would disturb the balance of the game (make legendary too easy, for instance). And obviously, implementing something specifically for a given difficulty level is harder than implementing it for all the difficulty levels.

    there used to be a time when the Empire didn't unite and/or was constnatly infighting... it usually ended with the Empire utterly devastated and taken over by Norsca and Undead... yey...
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
  • spaspa Registered Users Posts: 89

    spa said:

    Yea I get it, but thare's a lot of gameplay choices to consider here. Maybe I also didn't put in in a most specific frame. Say you play on legendary as Chaos or Norsca - if we make Empire provinces fight each other, this would make conquering Empire really easy. When I play on legendary, I want them united. If someone wants more loreful experience and is playing normal, then sure, bring on the civil wars and some lore-flavoured texts with it.

    Yet, in a case presented above, this mechanic can not exist on all difficulty levels (or the player should be able to turn it on and off), as it would disturb the balance of the game (make legendary too easy, for instance). And obviously, implementing something specifically for a given difficulty level is harder than implementing it for all the difficulty levels.

    there used to be a time when the Empire didn't unite and/or was constnatly infighting... it usually ended with the Empire utterly devastated and taken over by Norsca and Undead... yey...
    I remember, that's why I wouldn't like for it to happen again :<
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,457
    spa said:

    spa said:

    Yea I get it, but thare's a lot of gameplay choices to consider here. Maybe I also didn't put in in a most specific frame. Say you play on legendary as Chaos or Norsca - if we make Empire provinces fight each other, this would make conquering Empire really easy. When I play on legendary, I want them united. If someone wants more loreful experience and is playing normal, then sure, bring on the civil wars and some lore-flavoured texts with it.

    Yet, in a case presented above, this mechanic can not exist on all difficulty levels (or the player should be able to turn it on and off), as it would disturb the balance of the game (make legendary too easy, for instance). And obviously, implementing something specifically for a given difficulty level is harder than implementing it for all the difficulty levels.

    there used to be a time when the Empire didn't unite and/or was constnatly infighting... it usually ended with the Empire utterly devastated and taken over by Norsca and Undead... yey...
    I remember, that's why I wouldn't like for it to happen again :<</p>
    yeah, while the Empire is infighting, by the time of KF that's mostly small(ish) Border Skirmishes for a few villages and maybe a city or two, but that scale is not recreatable with the map scale of TW WH. basically, we'd have to have Thrones of Britannia level of scale for that to work.

    The times when bigger things are intended to happen (Looks at Theodoric Gausser planning to invade Hochland), KF usually knows how to deal with it (in that case, sending Gelt to turn Gaussers gold intended to pay mercenaries with, into lead)
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
  • GloatingSwineGloatingSwine Registered Users Posts: 171
    edited February 8

    Best way to stop the order tide is pretty simple, first nerd dwarfs AR, since the AI uses only AR, nerfing that will make dwarfs less powerful, empire needs to not Confederate the entire empire in the span of 8 turns, Britannia isn't that bad, they get strong, but only because the no real enemy **** with them, so nerfing the ally's will nerf them, high elves should just be removed from the game, because **** elves, also side note, need to lower the rate that people like eachother for being at war with a common foe, because it pretty much ensures dwarfs become friends with filthy skaven

    How well or badly the individual factions do in AR is not meaningful to the Ordertide, in fact if they get kicked in they're more likely to ally and allies are BFFs in almost all cases.

    It's a diplomacy level problem, where order factions have basically no reasons to ever fight each other, and they're also mostly neighbours so they can quickly establish trade and stack positive relations.

    A slightly more radical solution would be to remove Military Alliances.

    Leave Defensive Alliances, and leave the war join request, so factions can stil coordinate wars individually (and give the AI a better grasp of how relevant they are to the war based on distance to nearest enemy province), but remove the "massive pile on" button.
  • ErathilErathil Registered Users Posts: 625
    I like these ideas, but I think there's a simpler way to undermine the Order-Tide.
    1. Tweak AI Auto-Resolve values to favor playable factions and destructive races.
    2. Re-design Horde factions so they have one heavily defensible stronghold they can respawn at if their single army is defeated in battle.
    Beastmen and Warriors of Chaos have no sticking power. If the major factions had some remote stronghold, not an economic power but a heavily fortified home base in a one-settlement province with hostile terrain, then they may stick around long enough to actually have an impact. Better yet, it gives some structure to mid-late game Order races, as they'll need to manage constant pressure from the general direction of these strongholds until they can muster the strength to destroy the really challenging garrison and defenses.

    Ideally, I'd love to see Mortal Empires as the long, slow, inevitable decline of the Order Races. High Elves, Bretonnia, the Empire, and the Dwarfs should generally lose ground, bit by bit, and only survive by the efforts of a sympathetic player.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,700

    Best way to stop the order tide is pretty simple, first nerd dwarfs AR, since the AI uses only AR, nerfing that will make dwarfs less powerful, empire needs to not Confederate the entire empire in the span of 8 turns, Britannia isn't that bad, they get strong, but only because the no real enemy **** with them, so nerfing the ally's will nerf them, high elves should just be removed from the game, because **** elves, also side note, need to lower the rate that people like eachother for being at war with a common foe, because it pretty much ensures dwarfs become friends with filthy skaven

    How well or badly the individual factions do in AR is not meaningful to the Ordertide, in fact if they get kicked in they're more likely to ally and allies are BFFs in almost all cases.

    It's a diplomacy level problem, where order factions have basically no reasons to ever fight each other, and they're also mostly neighbours so they can quickly establish trade and stack positive relations.

    A slightly more radical solution would be to remove Military Alliances.

    Leave Defensive Alliances, and leave the war join request, so factions can stil coordinate wars individually (and give the AI a better grasp of how relevant they are to the war based on distance to nearest enemy province), but remove the "massive pile on" button.
    AR calcs are actually massively influential. Greenskins often get their butts kicked and confedertate, but this green blob is then taken apart quickly by the Dwarf steamroller. If you can't conquer any enemy settlements, can't defeat their armies and lose all settlements that are attacked due to AR shenanigans it really doesn't matter how much there's of you.

  • ErathilErathil Registered Users Posts: 625
    Hmm... another idea:

    Lower Dwarf auto-resolve values, BUT, give the primary Dwarf settlements massive inherent garrisons that are nearly impossible for the AI to fully destroy.

    Not every dwarf settlement, just the primary holds, like Karaz-a-Karak, Karak Kadrin, Zhufbar, Karak Norn, and Karak Hirn. It makes Dawitide much rarer, but keeps them from being snuffed out.
  • sandercohensandercohen Registered Users Posts: 184
    Eterlik said:

    I like many of those ideas. Especially cragmire sounds interesting.
    Down side of it, it could lead to an orc and/or skaventide if all of it would be implemented.

    On the other hand a skaventide might not be as bad ^^

    Between warp bombs + menace from below, strong settlement garrisons and defensive towers, underway, corruption, kite units, very strong and diverse roster and good AR calculations, I'd say a Skaventide would be an order of magnitude worse than an order/dawi/vampiretide.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,700
    Erathil said:

    Hmm... another idea:

    Lower Dwarf auto-resolve values, BUT, give the primary Dwarf settlements massive inherent garrisons that are nearly impossible for the AI to fully destroy.

    Not every dwarf settlement, just the primary holds, like Karaz-a-Karak, Karak Kadrin, Zhufbar, Karak Norn, and Karak Hirn. It makes Dawitide much rarer, but keeps them from being snuffed out.

    How about nerf their economy, nerf their replenishment and make it infinitely harder for them to expand? Same as needs to happen to Elves and Lizardmen.

  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,457

    Erathil said:

    Hmm... another idea:

    Lower Dwarf auto-resolve values, BUT, give the primary Dwarf settlements massive inherent garrisons that are nearly impossible for the AI to fully destroy.

    Not every dwarf settlement, just the primary holds, like Karaz-a-Karak, Karak Kadrin, Zhufbar, Karak Norn, and Karak Hirn. It makes Dawitide much rarer, but keeps them from being snuffed out.

    How about nerf their economy, nerf their replenishment and make it infinitely harder for them to expand? Same as needs to happen to Elves and Lizardmen.
    nerfed Dwarf economy? *looks at Dwarf treasure vaults*. I don't think so, Umgi.

    THE AGE OF RECKONING IS AT HAND, GROBI SCUM!
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,700
    edited February 8

    Erathil said:

    Hmm... another idea:

    Lower Dwarf auto-resolve values, BUT, give the primary Dwarf settlements massive inherent garrisons that are nearly impossible for the AI to fully destroy.

    Not every dwarf settlement, just the primary holds, like Karaz-a-Karak, Karak Kadrin, Zhufbar, Karak Norn, and Karak Hirn. It makes Dawitide much rarer, but keeps them from being snuffed out.

    How about nerf their economy, nerf their replenishment and make it infinitely harder for them to expand? Same as needs to happen to Elves and Lizardmen.
    nerfed Dwarf economy? *looks at Dwarf treasure vaults*. I don't think so, Umgi.

    THE AGE OF RECKONING IS AT HAND, GROBI SCUM!
    Good, then increase recruitment and upkeep of all of their units by 100% (and instead give Angrund an even more punishing replenishment penalty). If they are rich, they soldiers need to be proportionally expensive.

    Also, their growth needs to be near 0 as well.

  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,457

    Erathil said:

    Hmm... another idea:

    Lower Dwarf auto-resolve values, BUT, give the primary Dwarf settlements massive inherent garrisons that are nearly impossible for the AI to fully destroy.

    Not every dwarf settlement, just the primary holds, like Karaz-a-Karak, Karak Kadrin, Zhufbar, Karak Norn, and Karak Hirn. It makes Dawitide much rarer, but keeps them from being snuffed out.

    How about nerf their economy, nerf their replenishment and make it infinitely harder for them to expand? Same as needs to happen to Elves and Lizardmen.
    nerfed Dwarf economy? *looks at Dwarf treasure vaults*. I don't think so, Umgi.

    THE AGE OF RECKONING IS AT HAND, GROBI SCUM!
    Good, then increase recruitment and upkeep of all of their units by 100% (and instead give Angrund an even more punishing replenishment penalty). If they are rich, they soldiers need to be proportionally expensive.

    Also, their growth needs to be near 0 as well.
    nope. the whole "dying race" thing usually was fluctuating in Warhammer so massively as not to matter. in one story a dwarf army of a 500 dwarfs is huge. in the next 5,000 dwarfs is small and just a shadow of theri former glory...

    And Dwarf warriors are MILITIA.

    Basically you guys dislike "ordertide" soo much that you do not care if the faction is still fun to play afterwards, or on the other hand will just get overrun in the first 50 turns...
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,700

    Erathil said:

    Hmm... another idea:

    Lower Dwarf auto-resolve values, BUT, give the primary Dwarf settlements massive inherent garrisons that are nearly impossible for the AI to fully destroy.

    Not every dwarf settlement, just the primary holds, like Karaz-a-Karak, Karak Kadrin, Zhufbar, Karak Norn, and Karak Hirn. It makes Dawitide much rarer, but keeps them from being snuffed out.

    How about nerf their economy, nerf their replenishment and make it infinitely harder for them to expand? Same as needs to happen to Elves and Lizardmen.
    nerfed Dwarf economy? *looks at Dwarf treasure vaults*. I don't think so, Umgi.

    THE AGE OF RECKONING IS AT HAND, GROBI SCUM!
    Good, then increase recruitment and upkeep of all of their units by 100% (and instead give Angrdun an even more punishing replenishment penalty). If they are rich, they soldiers need to be proportionally expensive.

    Erathil said:

    Hmm... another idea:

    Lower Dwarf auto-resolve values, BUT, give the primary Dwarf settlements massive inherent garrisons that are nearly impossible for the AI to fully destroy.

    Not every dwarf settlement, just the primary holds, like Karaz-a-Karak, Karak Kadrin, Zhufbar, Karak Norn, and Karak Hirn. It makes Dawitide much rarer, but keeps them from being snuffed out.

    How about nerf their economy, nerf their replenishment and make it infinitely harder for them to expand? Same as needs to happen to Elves and Lizardmen.
    nerfed Dwarf economy? *looks at Dwarf treasure vaults*. I don't think so, Umgi.

    THE AGE OF RECKONING IS AT HAND, GROBI SCUM!
    Good, then increase recruitment and upkeep of all of their units by 100% (and instead give Angrund an even more punishing replenishment penalty). If they are rich, they soldiers need to be proportionally expensive.

    Also, their growth needs to be near 0 as well.
    nope. the whole "dying race" thing usually was fluctuating in Warhammer so massively as not to matter. in one story a dwarf army of a 500 dwarfs is huge. in the next 5,000 dwarfs is small and just a shadow of theri former glory...

    And Dwarf warriors are MILITIA.

    Basically you guys dislike "ordertide" soo much that you do not care if the faction is still fun to play afterwards, or on the other hand will just get overrun in the first 50 turns...
    They are a dying race, there's no sugarcoating it. They reproduce slowly and yet fight near constantly against all sorts of invaders.

    This needs to be reflected.

    All Dwarf units need to get vastly increased upkeep and recruitment cost. Them being milita is irrelevant, they still use tons of high quality gear and that's going to cost.

  • 10101010 Registered Users Posts: 245
    ASUR & DAWI Must Hate Each Other !
  • spaspa Registered Users Posts: 89

    Erathil said:

    Hmm... another idea:

    Lower Dwarf auto-resolve values, BUT, give the primary Dwarf settlements massive inherent garrisons that are nearly impossible for the AI to fully destroy.

    Not every dwarf settlement, just the primary holds, like Karaz-a-Karak, Karak Kadrin, Zhufbar, Karak Norn, and Karak Hirn. It makes Dawitide much rarer, but keeps them from being snuffed out.

    How about nerf their economy, nerf their replenishment and make it infinitely harder for them to expand? Same as needs to happen to Elves and Lizardmen.
    nerfed Dwarf economy? *looks at Dwarf treasure vaults*. I don't think so, Umgi.

    THE AGE OF RECKONING IS AT HAND, GROBI SCUM!
    Good, then increase recruitment and upkeep of all of their units by 100% (and instead give Angrdun an even more punishing replenishment penalty). If they are rich, they soldiers need to be proportionally expensive.

    Erathil said:

    Hmm... another idea:

    Lower Dwarf auto-resolve values, BUT, give the primary Dwarf settlements massive inherent garrisons that are nearly impossible for the AI to fully destroy.

    Not every dwarf settlement, just the primary holds, like Karaz-a-Karak, Karak Kadrin, Zhufbar, Karak Norn, and Karak Hirn. It makes Dawitide much rarer, but keeps them from being snuffed out.

    How about nerf their economy, nerf their replenishment and make it infinitely harder for them to expand? Same as needs to happen to Elves and Lizardmen.
    nerfed Dwarf economy? *looks at Dwarf treasure vaults*. I don't think so, Umgi.

    THE AGE OF RECKONING IS AT HAND, GROBI SCUM!
    Good, then increase recruitment and upkeep of all of their units by 100% (and instead give Angrund an even more punishing replenishment penalty). If they are rich, they soldiers need to be proportionally expensive.

    Also, their growth needs to be near 0 as well.
    nope. the whole "dying race" thing usually was fluctuating in Warhammer so massively as not to matter. in one story a dwarf army of a 500 dwarfs is huge. in the next 5,000 dwarfs is small and just a shadow of theri former glory...

    And Dwarf warriors are MILITIA.

    Basically you guys dislike "ordertide" soo much that you do not care if the faction is still fun to play afterwards, or on the other hand will just get overrun in the first 50 turns...
    They are a dying race, there's no sugarcoating it. They reproduce slowly and yet fight near constantly against all sorts of invaders.

    This needs to be reflected.

    All Dwarf units need to get vastly increased upkeep and recruitment cost. Them being milita is irrelevant, they still use tons of high quality gear and that's going to cost.
    It's still not enough imo. Maybe just remove them? Yes, that's it. Just remove Dwarfs. Ordertide solved. Damn I'm good.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,457


    All Dwarf units need to get vastly increased upkeep and recruitment cost. Them being milita is irrelevant, they still use tons of high quality gear and that's going to cost.

    so should CHaos Warriors and CHosen then.i'd say... 1500 or so for Warriors and 2,000 and more for Chosen would be appropriate and lore accurate for them in terms of lore.
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
Sign In or Register to comment.