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Dev Diary: Balancing Total War: THREE KINGDOMS

2

Comments

  • randomGodrandomGod Registered Users Posts: 48
    Could you please add back the attack chance to hit stat back? Both Lu Bu and a militia unit have the same chance to hit their opponent because it is entirely dependent on the melee evasion value. Bringing back the chance to hit will achieve the followings to the game.

    1. Allow you to fine-tune the balance in more detail because you don't have to rely on charge alone to overcome evasion.

    2. Diversity unit roles as opposed to being either just good or bad; you will have offensive anvil and defensive anvil for instance

    3. Make elite units more distinguished and unique.

    4. Steer the game's direction from cavalry-centred to more diversity. As of now only charge bonus can easily overcome high evasion which means inclusion of sizable cavalry is a must in any army which reduces viability of more unique army composition such as infantry-only army. By giving elite infantry units power to penetrate the enemy defense with their high chance to hit, the game roaster can be diversified.

    5. Unit variety; two-handed axe unit for a glass cannon for example. The current elite units can't do much once their charge bonus is gone and they are bogged down in a fight against inferior armmy

    I know it will require much work for the changes to be brought across the board, but I think it will be worth it. Many overhaul mods that changes the gameplay fundamentally (namely TROM mod) saw this problem with the lack of melee attack too and have introduced the hit chance back to the game, which battles feel much more organic and diverse as a result; try it yourself.

    I really hope you guys bring the melee attack hit chance back.
  • kweassa1kweassa1 Registered Users Posts: 814
    edited February 2020
    SUGGESTION FOR MORE INTUITIVE ADMINISTRATION

    This idea has been around before, but I would like to suggest an overhaul to internal administration to make easier, intuitive, and at the same time more effective.

    1. Deploying administrators should work on the PROVINCIAL level.

    2. Deployment becomes possible ONLY if a full control of a province is gained
    .....● Vassalized faction territories within the province count toward "full control."
    .....● Allied, coalition territory will NOT count toward "full control."

    4. Instead of limiting the number of individual administrators you can deploy
    .....● When gaining full control of province, all province unlocks 3 slots.
    .....● 1 slot for "Military" / 1 slot for "Governance" / 1 slot for "Economy"
    .....● "Military" slot buffs recruit/mobilize rates, supply efficiency, buffs military buildings
    .....● "Governance" slot handles faction support, anti-corruption, buffs government buildings
    .....● "Economy" slot buffs economy buildings
    .....● Slots with administrator deployed to, will affect ALL commandaries under the province

    4. All provinces you have full control of, can use max 3 hired personnel to boost stats

    5. At default, only 1 Province can be deployed the max 3 administrators

    6. Previous buffs that offer "+1 administrators" will be changed to "+1 provinces"

    7. A separate "Administration" screen to offer a clear info on where you have deployed administrators

    8. AI factions will make priority of taking control of a full province, when considering expansion

    9. Just like contesting a commandary, contesting the full control of a province will negatively impact diplomatic relations




    I predict these line of changes will...

    (1) Increase overall efficiency and ease of using "deploy administrators" function

    (2) Taking full control of provinces become that much more important for both player and AI, discouraging wild expeditionary expansion zillion miles away from your capital, and coercing all factions to form a solid area of influence in defensible positions.

    (3) Make conflicts more dynamic, as factions that are based within the same province will be experiencing tensions -- just like how Liu Bei and Sun Quan's relationship fell apart slowly over the control of Xing province. This will act as a trigger to have long-standing alliances and coalitions gradually fall apart in time... until alliances/coalitions happen between factions that are based on FULL provinces... which, in turn, will become to display territories more similar to actual historical progression.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,733
    I am actually sorry about this... this got so long I have to split into two posts... I'll put the spoiler tag so it doesn't nom all the frigging page. Honnestly I even decided to cut it short because I was getting so wordy and I just kept adding things... so yeah, yeet.

    Units balance :

    Yellow Turbans 190 Roster :

    - Give Peasant Yellow Turbans the same weapons as Militia, remove the Attack speed penalty from all Yellow Turbans. (Right now they use the base weapons with a penalty to attack rate, but in the case of Peasant archers vs Militia archers, the YT ones have an extra 20 range which means they have the first volley)
    - In general just remove the gimmicky hidden penalties/buffs to the YT roster (reduced attack speed for units, hidden melee defence for generals such as He Man)
    - Completely remove smaller unit counts for the following units (values are based on Ultra unit count) : Virtuous Noblemen (28 -> 40), Jiazi Raiders (20 -> 40), Arm of the Supreme Peace (40 -> 160), Huanglao Parangons (80 -> 160), Scholar Warriors (80 -> 160)
    - Increase Youxia men count from 80 to 120.
    - Either increase Venerable Wu men count from 80 to 120 or increase their armor so they are not so easily picked apart by ranged fire.
    - Decrease Chanters men count from 160 to 120
    - Add Protectors of Heaven and Defenders of the Earth to the YT Roster as Imperial Units. Add a Shield Shock Cavalry with a name related to the People to complete the trio of YT Imperial Units.
    - Change Defenders of the Earth men count from 40 to 160.
    - Change Defenders of the Earth bow to long range bow (250 range).
    - Add the "Explosive shot" option to the Defenders of the Earth (Current DoE shot type damage, range reduced to 75)

    Han 190 Roster :

    - Remove the Protectors of Heaven and Defenders of the Earth from the Han Roster
    - Basic units should be Peasant units. Peasant Bows (even lower Morale Archer Militia pretty much), Peasant Spear Band (old Peasant Band), Peasant Axe Band (old Axe Band), Peasant Raiders (old Peasant Raiders), Peasant Scouts (Light cavalry with Axe and shield)
    - Imperial Units do not require Technology. Instead they would require high character rank (8/9 or even 10 why not) on top of Emperor status.
    - Units unlocked with Technologies are unlocked for all classes.
    - No more additional cost to recruit factionnal units (more below)

    Jin 291 Roster :

    - Remove PoH and DoE from the roster. Add Imperial Units for Imperial Prince rank techs.

    Custom battles Roster :

    - Give Imperial Units to every character at highest character rank (right now I believe that only He Jin and Huangfu Song can recruit Imperial Units) - Remove PoH and DoE for the Han/Jin characters, add them for the YT

    Units weapon balance :

    - Decrease Crossbow range from 250 to 150
    - Increase Repeating Crossbows range from 100 to 150.
    - Increase Repeating Crossbows damage from 21 to 40
    - Increase 1H and 2H Spear Attack Speed from 20 to 24.
    - Increase Jian Attack Speed from 24 to 30 (also affects Jian Sword Cavalry)

    Water units balance :

    - Remove Flaming Shot from Archer Militia and Peasant Archers. (and Peasant Bows if added)
    - Reduce all foot Archers units total ammo by 25%. Don't touch Mounted Archers total ammo
    - Increase Crossbows (and Repeating Crossbows + their respective heavier variants) units total ammo by 25%.
    - Increase Mounted Crossbows ammo by 100%.
    - Multiple Bolt Crossbows and Trebuchets : Campaign movement range down from 1900 to 1500.
    - Multiple Bolt Crossbows now require rank 4 strategist to be recruited
    - Trebuchets now require rank 7 strategist to be recruited
    - Repeating Crossbows do not require tech anymore, only strategist ranks (3/6)
    - Mounted Crossbows do not require tech anymore, only strategist rank 6.
    - Archer Militia now require Private Tutors to be recruited
    - Archers and Mounted Archers now require Diplomatic Missions to be recruited
    - Heavy Mounted Archers now require Silk Road Expeditions to be recruited
    - Imperial Palace Cavalry unit count from 80 to 40 (this one is a bug and has been reported as such but it's also part of the balancing process)
    (- Add Heavy Archers that would require Silk Road Expeditions to be recruited.)
    - Prevent the AI to fire ranged weaponry when engaged in melee (because yes, they do that)

    Wood units balance :

    - Add Spear Wall and Hollowed Square to Spear Warriors
    - Switch up the Azure Dragon bow from the Siyah horn bow (that's used by Yi Archers/Marksmen) to the more standard Archer bow. (It's a big difference in damage)
    - Ji Militia now require Resettlement Incentives to be recruited
    - Ji Infantry now require Agricultural Tax Relief to be recruited
    - Heavy Ji Infantry now require Sharecropping to be recruited

    Metal units balance :

    - Remove Formations for Axe Band as it would now be a tier 0 unit.
    - Sabre Militia now require Currency-based Economy to be recruited
    (- Add Heavy Sabre Infantry that would require State Monopolies to be recruited.)
    (- Add Axe Infantry that would require Register of Land&Population to be recruited)
    (- Add Heavy Axe Infantry that would require Iron&Salt Agencies to be recruited)
    (- Add Heavy Jian Sword Guards for rank 6 Sentinels)

    Earth units balance :

    - Increase Mounted Sabre Militia armor from 7% to 20%
    - Increase Sabre Cavalry armor from 25% to 32%
    - Mounted Sabre Milita now require Eunuch Secretaries to be recruited
    - Move Yellow Dragons in the tech tree from Mandate of Heaven to Six Bureaus of Bureaucracy.
    - Increase all Han&YT Earth Cavalry Attack rate by 20%. (And reduce Qiang Raiders attack rate from 50% to a more reasonable 25%).
    (- Add Heavy Jian Sword Cavalry for rank 6 Commanders)
    (- Add Axe Cavalry that would require Civil Service Recommendations to be recruited)
    (- Add Heavy Sabre Cavalry that would require Metropolitan Superintendants to be recruited.)

    Fire units balance :

    - Cataphracts and their Heavier version do not require tech anymore, only vanguard ranks (3/6)
    - Mounted Lancer Militia now require Regional Commissioners to be recruited
    - Buff to the Cataphracts + Heavy Cataphracts "melee CP" value. (as it's really low right now)
    - Reduce Catraphracts + Heavy Cataphracts upfront recruitment cost to be more in line with regular cavalry costs.
    (- Add Heavy Lance Cavalry that would require Hereditary Buqu to be recruited)

    Imperial Units balance :

    - As mentionned earlier, these units should not be technology dependant but purely Faction Rank (Emperor/Imperial Prince) and Character Rank (from 8 to 10 take your pick) dependant.
    - Basic Replenishment Rate buffed from -28% to -14% (Effectively buffing from -24% to -10% as the base replenishment rate for all the other units is 4%)
    - Base unit rank is 1 rather than 10
    - However in Liu Hong campaign, levels of Dynasty will reduce/increase the replenishment rate (-18% at rank 0, -12% at rank 1, -6% at rank 2, 0% at rank 3, 5% at rank 4 and 10 at rank 5)
    - Additionnally as the support in the Dynasty is increased then unit base levels go up (new imperial units starting at rank 1 for the first levels and actually getting the rank 10 start with rank 3 or 4 as the Dynasty army is being properly reformed for the Empire)
    - Double (Triple in the case of the Imperial Swords) the unit upkeep costs.
    - Perhaps buff the "melee/ranged CP" value ? I didn't check it properly but I'm not sure if it's as high as the Dragon units "melee/ranged cp"

    Factional Units balance :

    - As mentionned above : get rid of most of the additionnal recruitment cost.

    The only faction that should have an inflated cost to recruit compared to the actual troop quality should be Sun Jian because his units deploy at full strength. All other warlords special units should deploy with a price tag that reflects properly the unit quality.

    Battle balance

    - Remove the Morale Penalty when fighting cavalry. Like cavalry was already overbearing why give them another buff especially with adding more "recent casualty" penalty...

    - Check out how damage reflection works, I had several cases where my generals got dismounted when charging from the back, also had several cases where my shock cav just randomly took massive damage when charging into a spear unit back/flank as well.

    - Check out how attack orders work. Not only we have the issue of ranged units not opening fire unless asked to do so manually in ambush battles, but there has been several occasions where my heroes just "stopped" doing whatever they were supposed to be doing.



    Generals/Heroes balance :

    - Allow the player to "respec" their generals for X * 4000 (X being the general rank). Cost very slightly reduced by building schools within your faction. (even a -1% per school rank would make it cheap when stacked a bit)

    Weapons&Armor

    - Run a balance overview of Generals weapons in both Romance and Records, right now it's not uncommon that weapon used by regular units are either weaker or stronger than the weapons of the same tiers used by generals.
    Some examples of this include : General Ji (Bronze rarity) deals 27/27 while Lance Cavalry using corresponding regular Ji deals 25/25. And on the opposite side of the spectrum : General 1H Axe (Bronze rarity) deals 7/16 while AXE BAND using lower tier militia Axes deals 6/17. (Which means the general weapon is worse because 1 AP > 1 MD)

    Such inbalances in power naturally translates to Romance as well. 1H Axes are one if not the weakest Romance weapons imho (which is weird because I believe the DW Axes are actually fine). Other big "offenders" are in my opinion :
    - The 2H Maces and Axes. Reducing the attack speed of the weapon from 20 to 15 would be a good start (as it's the attack speed of the regular units 2H mace as well) to compensate the massive AP damage value of the weapons (hence attack slow, hit really hard of it hits)
    - The one handed and two handed Ji's.
    - Liu Bei's Shuang Gu Jian which somehows manage to be worst statwise than Silver quality Kindred Jian.

    A common theme about the weapons that are "bad" is that they have no Wu Xing drawbacks (or more Wu Xing stats than usual), but that's not a good way to balance things as Wu Xings bonuses are quite "niche". All to say more often than not it's better to get the better raw stats over the Wu Xing bonuses. And then you have some weapons such as the 1H Ji that just do not have anything for it compared to say a Warblade.

    - Other simple actions such as removing the armour ignoring effect of the Blue Blade and Blade of Xiang Yu and instead "just" transfer respectively 50% or 25% of the Base Damage the weapon does to the Armour Piercing Damage the weapon does. It would just "simplify" the weapons.

    - The same problems kinda spill into armor balance. Heavy Armor generally means debuffs on Movement speed (understandable) but also Melee attack rate (why tho ?).

    Overall I believe Weapon and Armor ancillaries should focus on what they offer compared to the others, be it on raw stats or Wu Xing points while staying with positives. For exemple going into higher armor tiers is trading Melee evasion (which is RNG) for Armor (which is a flat damage reduction.value) - be it in Romance AND Records. Another point : using heavier armor should reduce the unit speed but also increase unit mass – and that should be in Records only.

    - Generals should also be able to access bows if equipped with a bow ancillary. (hence turning into a bow cav unit)

    - Heroes should get the Dynasty treatment for ammunition and pretty much have 9999 ammo (this is highly debatable but I do not think it would matter too much, as long as you make the AI react to their general being sniped)

    - All Armour ancillaries should give at least +40% ranged block chance to the general/hero. (yeah well, "obviously" ... value could perhaps be lowered for generals but I don't think it should be below 20%)

    - All Unique armour should give the same amount of effects which is the "armour"/"evasion" ratings (balancing each others), "speed debuff"/"mass increase" ratings (balancing each others), ranged block chance for the character and then one additionnal effect for the character (ex : increased character speed, Unbreakable, reduced Cooldown) and one effect for the retinue (ex : Retinue upkeep reduction, melee attack rate buff, Stalk to the whole retinue).
    Additionnally to compensate the fact that "Randomo Character" unique armor has access to Sets bonus, "Main Character" unique armor should get another bonus : either for the character or the retinue.

    Set bonus

    - Big overview needed for this as some items give factionwide bonuses but their set gives a bonus to the administered commandery. Very hard bonus such as the Fortress only give a minor bonus while more common bonuses such as Lord of Fire give a pretty big bonus.

    - Add. More. Sets.

    Innate stats flattening :

    - As mentionned before, remove hidden buffs/debuffs to some of the heroes/generals (such as He Man incredible buff to melee defence). Strategists should loose their melee attack speed debuff,

    - Vanguards have varying Charge bonus values they should be flattened

    - All Generals have varying Morale values they should be flattened (at something like 44 for all classes and characters and the rest can come out of Authority and buffs such as friendship/oathswornship)

    Basically : most stats differences should come from the Skills, Traits and Wu Xing stats. Not from some hidden values that generals possess outside of that scope.

    Skills

    - Diligence : +5% melee evasion for all infantry in retinue rather than just melee infantry.

    - Trust : +10% armour for all infantry in retinue rather than just spear infantry.

    - Nobility : +20% ranged block chance for all cavalry in retinue rather than just melee cavalry.

    - Passion : +25% melee damage for all cavalry in retinue rather than just shock cavalry.

    - Meditation : Remove Unbreakable, change +10 Morale to army when defending (when commanding) to +10 Morale to army (when commanding).

    - Resourcefulness : Change effect +10 Military supplies in enemy territory (own army) to +10 Military supplies in enemy territory (when commanding)

    - Zeal : Change effect +40% Melee attack rate (character) to +10% Melee attack rate (when commanding) to be more consistent with the Precision skill.



    Campaign Balance

    - Romance : Add +1 Resilience to all characters with specific careers.
    - Records : Remove Resilience. Entierely. Back to hardcore Total War. (So no more level 4+ point of Resilience and no Resilience from career)

    - Remove the cost to colonize for the human player OR add it back to the AI player. Right now Humans must pay 4000 (minor) or 8000 (major) while the AI can just resettle for free. That ain't cool. (nor balanced)

    Han Buildings

    - Remove flat food costs from the food market line. Either remove the negative completely or instead food market should reduce food produced in commandery by 50%.

    - Remove public order penalty from the Tax Collector building (but keep fervor increase in 182 start)

    - Military forge level 3's. Increase Industrial modifier from 20% to 40%

    - Revert Palace line to 1.3. (Except for Liu Hong). Add a faction-wide effect (+1 administrator ? Public order ? Satisfaction ?) to buff it up slightly as it's a "one-of-a-kind" building.

    - Give back a full retinue to minor settlement level 2. (1 captain + 6 units)

    - Give Tao Qian minor settlements a decent garrison (Right now he's stuck with one retinue while other Han gets two starting at level 3)

    YT Buildings

    - Buff YT garrisons to be on par with Han garrisons.(Same stuff, they are struck with one retinue while the Han get two starting level 3)

    Both YT and Han buildings

    - Military Supply Village and Military Supply Town, now provide factionwide recruitment cost reduction for both Melee and Spear Infantry

    - Composite Wood Maker Camp, now provides factionwide recruitment cost reduction for Ranged Infantry.

    - Legendary Armourer : Now grants +3/+5/+8 flat Armor to all units in the faction. Instead of spawning unique armour ancillaries

    - Legendary Weaponsmith : Now grant +4/+7/+10 flat Weapon damage to all units in the faction. Instead of spawning unique weapon ancillaries

    - Legendary Animal Tamer : Now grant +5/+10/+15 flat charge bonus to all cavalry units in the faction. Instead of spawning unique horse ancillaries

    - Jade Artisans income increase from 140 (commerce) + 200 (industry) to 150 (commerce) + 250 (industry)
    - Jade Master Artisans income increase from 170 (commerce) + 250 (industry) to 190 (commerce) + 290 (Industry)

    Ancillaries spawn

    - Remove the current gacha system for ancillaries (random spawning + random spawning on random generals in rebellions + random spawning on random generals that joins the faction through events).
    Battle plan : Ask Jack Lusted to make a corgi commando led by one of his most trusted team member (so preferably one with the Loyal, Dutiful, Fraternal, Honourable, Humble or Modest trait... or any combination of the six) in order to kidnap the guy that coded the ancillary forge system that the dwarves have in WH2 and put it in Three Kingdom. Seriously.

    Ancillaries balance.

    - Change the Trade Influence Follower-type ancillaries so it has an effect when equipped by everybody in the faction and not only the faction leader.
    - Additionnally increase the Trade Influence Accessory-type ancillary so it actually gives +50% trade influence or something.
    - Change the Experience Follower-type ancillaries so it has an effect for the characters in the Army rather than needing it to be equipped on the faction leader for a boost akin to a level 2 school.
    - Change the Concubine so it only affects the character she's equipped to. (because right now except the Wu Xing there's no reason to use the Legalist Fanatic over the Concubine... and I mean why would a Concubine increase the Satisfaction of all the faction members anyw-... oh... that's terrible CA)

    The Han (190 start)

    - Make it so they don't spend money on characters anymore and make them play Sim City instead with spending all their income into building up their cities and stuff so they just don't hoard their money like they are some kind of dragon or something.

    - Make Wang Yun the leader of the Han faction rather than Huangfu Song like in the 182 start ? (so we can hope he gets released into the character pool before the Hans are wiped out)

    Faction placement ? (190 start)

    - Cao Cao should start provinceless next to Dong main settlement (reduced to Large Town (3) level instead of Small City (4) level) with Xiahou Dun and Xiahou Yuan in his starting army. (so he doesn't always release poor Xiahou Yuan)

    - Liu Chong starts with all of Chen under his command. Giving him a strong start..

    - Liu Bei starts provinceless next to Pingyuan main settlement.

    - Henei Farmland and Dong main settlement given to YT Rebellion faction

    - Huang Shao starts with Taishan Town - now upgraded to a Small City - and its Trade Port, add the Farming building level 2 to the city second slot so he doesn't outright starve, leave the new third slot empty.

    (To be fair I'm quite clueless about the real positions of the warlord so I'm kinda throwing the things I saw on the forums over here. IMHO now that Liu Chong is in, most of these would make sense)

    Faction currencies

    - Liu Bei Unity currency pool : From 1000 max to 2000 max. Keep the current spacing between thresholds.

    - Cao Cao Credibility currency pool : From 100 max to 500 max. Increase Proxy War initiation cost from 75 to 250 (75 to 50% of the max currency) –. Manipulate opinion cost increased from 25 to 50 (25% to 10% of the max currency).
    Credibility can now be gained through all three branches of the Administration office buildings.
    Higher levels of Credibility increase relations with all Han factions as well as reducing the perceived threat level - as hinted by the descriptive text. They also should increase Prestige (up to 125 like Liu Bei's).
    So using or not using Credibility should be a thing the same way Sima Lun needs to mind how he uses his subterfuge... this should also favor AI Cao Cao going up in ranks and help him get a spot for the Three Kingdom phase.

    - Sun Jian Heroism currency pool : reduce heroism won in battle by 50%. From 200 max to 1000 max. Sleeping Tiger for the first 200 points, Awoken Tiger from the 201 to 500, Furious Tiger from 501 to 900. Tiger of Jiangdong triggers from 901 to 1000. (Those 99 points are the reserve so he doesn't auto loose the Tiger of Jiangdong trait since even without the decay you can loose heroism if you loose more men than the enemy).
    Sleeping Tiger Satisfaction penalty should be higher (-5 to -10), slightly increase the Recruitment cost (+10%) and Retinue upkeep (+4%) as well as decreasing Prestige by 25 in order to give the Sun a slightly "harduous" start. However starting with Awoken Tiger those penalties would go away (keeping the simple +5 Satisfaction effect). Furious Tiger and Tiger of Jiangdong would slightly increase Prestige on top of the current buffs. (say 25/50)

    - Liu Biao Governance : Should be +1 per county owned by vassals rather than +1 per vassal. Perhaps increase the county limit by 25% per Governance level as the map state in 182 and 190 is quite different from the one in 291.

    - Yuan Shao Lineage : Increase max value from 100 to 500. Lineage is gained by leading an army, with the amount of members in his current coalition/alliance (not just the ones he initiates because it's wonky) and the Yuan administration.
    Lineage bar should now be split in 4 rather than 3.
    As the Lineage goes up instead of gaining what he used to (Captain Retinue recruitment cost reduction); Yuan Shao would now gain Prestige (basically his whole administration gives him Prestige rather than individual buildings) and additionnal chance to capture characters after a battle on top of the bonus to replenishment.
    He wouldn't require Lineage to recruit characters anymore. But he would get special assignements to recruit either a regular character (starts at level 1 – relatively low Lineage cost) or a legendary character (starts at level 4 – medium Lineage cost). His Lineage should also be able to be used to "grease" Coalition/Alliance deals. (but only those deals)


    - Yuan Shu Legitimacy : Increase max value from 400 to 800. Legitimacy is gained through the special Legitimacy deal (+8 Legitimacy per turn unchanged), building the special Zhong administration building (Reverse the decay on this) and throwing his special assignements Business Venture (From -6 it should gives +4 Legitimacy per turn and instead of increasing income by +75%/+25%/+25% [commerce/industry/peasantry] it should increase it by 30%/+10%/+10%)
    Legitimacy now rapidly decays over time at all levels (let's say a big -15 flat reduction per level per turn so -15/-30/-45/-60) making it hard to maintain
    Remove the penalty to diplomacy with Han factions, make it a bonus instead (as your legitimacy is recognized they should be willing to work with you more, not the opposite). Keep the other buffs.
    Yuan Shu wouldn't have to spend Legitimacy to recruit new characters and should get access to captain retinues like his brother.
    _________________________________

    My personal collection of hazardous tests and quickfixes (yes this is a link).
    Wondering why you get some traits on your characters this may give you a vague idea

    Balance enthusiast, I like tinkering and messing with stuff and values. Cool heads prevails !
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,733
    Part 2 : much smaller however.

    Diplomacy

    - One-off stain for annexing a vassal reduced from -20 to 0
    - Permanent stain for annexing a vassal reduced from -2 to 0.
    - One-off stain for annexing a vassal whose autonomy was guaranteed increased from -20 to -40
    - Permanent stain for annexing a vassal whose autonomy was guaranteed increased from -2 to -5
    - Permanent stain for declaring war while breaking a non-aggresion pact increased from 0 to -1
    - Permanent stain for declaring war while breaking a military access pact increased from 0 to -2
    - Permanent boost for fighting ennemies of the alliance increased from 0 to 0,2 (yes 0,2)
    - Permanent boost for defending a vassal increased from 0 to 2 (at least you get something out of it on the long run zzz)

    - Empires should function like a Master and his vassals in regard with income : All members of the Empire pay 20% of their income to the Emperor.

    - If the Emperor decides to get the "Mandated Power" the income taxing goes from 20% to 80%. Drastically draining the diplomatic standing of the members of the Empire with the Emperor over time (from a max of -40 currently to a max of -200)

    - If the Emperor decides to present an "United Front" then the current system where all wealth is garnered and then evenly split between factions is put in place. Slightly increasing the diplomatic standing of the Emperor with its members (as that measure would be a show of confiance I guess ?)

    (Liu Hong should get the choice of either get the Mandated Power or present the United Front when the Mandate War begins)

    - In both cases the Emperor can cancel the call after ten turns. (Liu Hong can't until the Mandate War is won however)

    - When a faction with Vassals reach Emperor Status they should automatically make an Empire with all the Vassals in it. Additionnaly Emperor and members of an Empire shouldn't be able to make vassals (nor ask for Cooperation)

    - Emperors during the Three Kingdoms phase should be able to form Coalitions and Alliance with each others (but the AI would pretty much not accept breaking a status-quo of forces between the three Emperors)

    - Having very high prestige over another Emperor should make it so you have more chances of peacefully asking for his abdication. (Every 100 Prestige would reduce the "Demand Abdication" threshold when at peace by 10, or something like that at least)

    - Holding two Emperor seats should pretty much guarantee a permanent war against the last Emperor

    - Base diplomatic standing between Empire members should be higher

    Court Management

    - Han "Title ranks" (aka Military ranks afaic) should have a similar effects as court ranks (aka more civil ranks such as administrators, chancellor and so on) : effectively removing the penalty for desire of higher office per military rank instead of simply giving a bit of satisfaction (ex : Lu Bu being rank 7 he would have to be Lieutenant General in order to not have any penalty, but obviously you could settle for a lower promotion if he has a role in your civil court).

    - In order to balance the massive buff to management, actual salary and price to promote should be even further increased as the ranks go up (Highest rank of General in Chief currently adds +500 salary, let's say it could be tripled to compensate the gigantic buff)

    - Also this kinda ties up with the fact that I mentionned higher than Authority from the guy in charge of the faction shouldn't give factionwide satisfaction anymore.

    - Yellow Turbans on the other hand would gladly take that Satisfaction per rank for their own "pupil ranks". (as they represent their understand of the Tao and their comradship afaic)

    - Yellow Turban faction leaders should gain back their access to their own special "teacher ranks" (that they lost because it was probably wonky when a faction leader went to a new faction... you just had to reset it CA)

    - QoL : Please add an option to dismiss a character within the recruitment pool without actually recruiting him/her




    I think I could have kept going... I really had to stop myself... :(
    _________________________________

    My personal collection of hazardous tests and quickfixes (yes this is a link).
    Wondering why you get some traits on your characters this may give you a vague idea

    Balance enthusiast, I like tinkering and messing with stuff and values. Cool heads prevails !
  • nephlitenephlite Registered Users Posts: 407
    @Rewan
    Too specific ask like that doesn't help official balancing. We should only ask for direction and style.
  • LESAMALESAMA Member Registered Users Posts: 2,152
    NoXlenS said:

    Thanks for all the hard work you guys do!

    Some Campaign / UI Suggestions?

    1. Let us preview the effects/bonuses of characters in an occupied role. At the moment we have to kick out the current incumbent before we can preview the bonuses. I.e. the faction heir needs to be removed before we can even preview what another heir's bonus would be.

    2. Let us swap and move administrators around to different cities without first kicking them out of office.

    3. Give us a tooltip when we mouse over faction flags. Some of them are hard to identify factions especially when its sometimes just the character that differs in the flag design.

    4. Let the faction leader be changed / abdicate the position similar to the faction heir.

    5. Update MoH mechanics for other factions besides Liu Hong.
    - Tooltips like Prime Minister reference a role that isnt explicitly used anymore post the MoH update, it should reference the rank of the 2 minister roles now.
    - Empire subjects can't be annexed (even at a cost) with other non Liu Hong empires
    - Empires dont have war-coordination with empire subjects with other non Liu Hong empires
    - We should be able to invite factions into an empire even if they are in a coalition / alliance (similar to vassalising)
    - Other empires should be able to abdicate their thrones similar to how it was done before

    With most of the empire mechanics limited to Liu Hong, at the moment its better to avoid empire-ing entirely and vassalise or join in an alliance with other factions instead.

    6. Use prestige as "currency" for certain actions, i.e. commissioning weapons or armor , or even trying to coerce generals in other factions to join you. Similar to the WH2's dwarves runeforge or Empire Prestige

    Fully agree. It's annoying to kick out court members if you want them to move to another position.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Registered Users Posts: 0
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  • usedorcusedorc Registered Users Posts: 1
    I suggest decreasing the damage of arrow towers but increasing its fire rate in the meantime to balance it out or even make a tower that fires two arrows at a time so that it'll do a fair amount of damage to units like infantry, cavalry and hero units
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,733
    edited February 2020
    Too specific ask like that doesn't help official balancing. We should only ask for direction and style.


    Well yes and no, the exact changes I'm giving that's obviously a no but what I'm proposing to change (and the base idea behind it when I bothered putting an explanation) that's actually a yes (... well at least I hope).

    To be fair nearly everything I put in there has been talked about in the forum anyways (and again I kept it short), and to give you an exemple as far as I can tell : I'm not the only one that would like to see a reduction in crossbow range for exemple.

    (But funnily enough if I understood the dev diary properly : the data seems to indicate that archers are still more popular which is a headscratcher to me, sure they have much more ammo but the damage and range of the crossbows should make them superior...)
    _________________________________

    My personal collection of hazardous tests and quickfixes (yes this is a link).
    Wondering why you get some traits on your characters this may give you a vague idea

    Balance enthusiast, I like tinkering and messing with stuff and values. Cool heads prevails !
  • Fan3982173917524862Fan3982173917524862 Registered Users Posts: 1,550
    I think the release Tower damage was fine, maybe could have been tuned down a bit and scaled with settlement level, but it made attacking settlements an actual challenge instead of having the defenders roll over and die if they don't have an army. Also it required the player to have the hindsight to bring tools like fire arrows or trebuchets if they wanted to assault a settlement and not just rush it with their regular army. The instant retinue recruitment system is there for a reason, we can change units on the fly, players should be rewarded for using it to adapt to situations rather than just using the same units in their army.
    I'm glad the sword and axe units are being rebalanced, spears were simply better in every regard. The issue you bring up about ranged units still being recruited the most is due to how incredibly better the missile units are over melee infantry. It's the case in warhammer as well. Simply put, melee units risk losing health when fighting and they can suffer loses that heavily impact their next battle until they replenish. Meanwhile, ranged units can shoot from a safe distance until their ammo runs out, they also start with full ammo next battle on the same turn as well. And we know how mandatory and strong strategists are, by buffing ammo reserves and damage, as well as the skills like flaming shot being one of the best in the game. On higher difficulties, the balance between the melee vs melee fights is skewed towards the AI because of the handicap the player gets as well as the bonuses the AI has, while it doesn't affect ranged units. Ranged units have been dominant for a long time in recent TW titles, I think 3K even makes this more ridiculous by giving them a much larger range and firing radius. I was shocked when I saw this initially.
    Also please take a look at records mode and records mode generals.
    Another issue I have is the trait generation is random and not influenced by your actions. This was perfectly good in WH, why did we get random traits again? They can pretty much change the relationship of characters and satisfaction of your court without any way to expect it. Please make it so traits are gained by actions rather than randomly assigned.
  • LaowhLaowh Registered Users Posts: 13
    edited February 2020
    • Trebuchets and mutli shots crossbows are way to OP. I don't even usually field archers and crossbows in strategist retinues anymore. I think that because of that problem in balance enemies should not rush out of the settlements when outranged. They just blob up while trying to get out and get crushed by the artillery at the choke point. Here is an example of one of the many instances where i take a settlement with 0 casualties https://imgur.com/PnzFppb . 1000+ kills on the ballistaes. The autoresolve was supposed to be a 'crushing defeat'. Small settlement battle are actually way easier that open field battle because of this. But even in open field battle ballistae and trebs can destroy the entire enemy's army before it even reaches my units.
    • Overall, archers and crossbows are also too strong. Combined with ballistaes and trebs it encourages a very passive style of play that quickly gets repetitive.
    • I also find that units are unlocked very late in the tech tree. Usually, I unlock dragon units when the campaign is almost already over.
    • It is really difficult to make heroes and cavalry retreat when they are attacked. Every 2 seconds they drop the movement order and just charge back because 1 model is still in combat. I have lost countless cav units because of this. I don't have the time to keep telling them to move and even then they don't.
    • I don't know if it is intended or not but why is it not possible anymore to make other emperors abdicate ?
    • Shi Xie is nearly every time declared king even if he is weak. It is boring to get to him and he is not a challenge. It just takes 10+ turns to send a single army and beat him.
    • When making the transition from an alliance to an empire in the diplomatic menu (situation 1) most of my allies are against joining the empire. But when I form the empire alone and the alliance is dissolved (situation 2) they are more than happy to join my empire. This feels a bit stupid, to me the ia should check what would be its decision in situation 2 and apply it in situation 1. Overall, it feels weird because my allies nearly always reject the proposition in situation 1 but accept it in situation 2.
    • I also wished it would be possible once emperor to directly convert vassals into empire subjects. I often have 10+ vassals but only 1 empire subject

  • SorrowmirSorrowmir Registered Users Posts: 2
    edited February 2020
    While the melee vs melee balance has really improved most of the killing power still comes from cavalry and ranged troops, while melee troops mostly serve to restrict enemy movement. That might be the intended combat balance for the period, I'm not sure.
    On the topic of cavalry they seem to be sustain heavy losses and still be incredibly useful, it feels to me like they take to long to rout, especially when they are not supported in any way. On top of that I don't think a fighting vs cavalry morale penalty is necessary, they are very powerful even without it and it gave me quite the scare, how even my ji militia's morale would melt fighting cavalry. A halfhearted suggestion for ranged tropps might be reducing ammo and/or armour piercing damage maybe?
    Another thing that is definitely not part of period accurate combat, is the immense benefit of battlefield artillery. It allows you to sit back and pressure the enemy into an engagement and personally it feels like a sort of cheat mode to me.
    I second the notion that unlocking units is really unit unlocking is really tedious, they are allover the tech tree and I'd appreciate if you could focus on certain reform tree branches to unlock units and give up getting other benefits instead. The way it currently is you barely see most of the immense roster 3k has.
  • Dan_HornsbyDan_Hornsby Registered Users Posts: 4

    Multiplayer

    Implement the same restriction that Dynasty Mode has - you can only pick a character once. That would basically solve the multiplayer issues singlehandedly, since you can no longer double or triple up on the best characters (Xu Chu), and would also, y'know, make sense.

    Campaign

    Since Trebuchets are basically mandatory (simply to allow you to siege attack on turn 1), that means Strategists are basically mandatory in each army. Couple it with the fact that ranged units are very powerful in 3K, and your armies are almost always a Champion (for reach and flexibility when commanding), a Strategist (for trebuchets), and one other random character (usually a Vanguard or Commander, because cavalry is very, very powerful). This means that Sentinels (and the entire metal roster) go unused, because Champions give you a perfectly fine infantry core on the battlefield, and Sentinels have potent administrator and assignment skills.

    This is obviously bad for campaign diversity.

    As a fix, I'd suggest allowing Commanders access to siege units, just as they get access to certain units of the other classes. That means Strategists are no longer mandatory, and gives you more choice when building your armies.

    I'd also like if the "infantry" versions of "militia" units (sabre infantry, ji infantry, archers, sabre cavalry, lance cavalry) were locked to character level rather than reform - it would give more weight to higher level characters. As a vague idea, you could structure it in tiers:
    • Rank 1 characters get access to sabre militia, ji militia, archer militia, mounted sabre militia and mounted lancer militia.
    • Rank 3 characters get access to axe band, ji infantry, archers, sabre cavalry and lancer cavalry, restricted by their class
    • Rank 6 characters get access to sabre infantry, heavy ji infantry, jian sword guard cavalry and cataphracts, restricted by their class
    But if we're set on tying core units to tech unlocks, I really like how the 182 Yellow Turban tech tree handles it - four branches, one for economy, one for military, one for characters and one for unit unlocks. That means you're not scrabbling around for what random techs you need to unlock to give yourself access to better sword dudes, you can just see how far up the unit tree they are. Plus the fact that units and economy upgrades are tied together means that often you're pushed to go in certain directions (towards azure and onyx dragons), and never in others (yellow and pearl dragons). Since reforms are rationed (you get a flat one per year), you're pushed to not "waste" any on economic benefits or building unlocks you're not going to use, even if you might quite like the units that sit further up.
  • WesuWesu Registered Users Posts: 8
    edited February 2020
    1. An army with a trebuchet should not be able to attack a (walled) city straight away. -- This really takes away the value of having walls, and even grabbing a single unit of trebs on a strategist now ensures you can blitz entire regions.

    2. Not enough axe-type units. -- To really emphasise how axes can counter shielded units, we really need more axe-type units. Perhaps remove the reform dependancy on Axe Band units so they are always recruitable and for Metal units, then introduce a better Axe unit in the reform. As it stands right now, Axe Bands are just not good enough for the midgame.

    3. Commanders need more unit variety -- Commanders have access to better units from different elements, this is nice but should be added on. For instance, give the commanders access to the Bolt-throwers. Oh and, more cavalry for them perhaps?

    4. Yellow Turban commanders are confusing. -- Their skill trees are very different depending on their background. While the idea of it is nice (and perhaps could even be used for the other factions Han, Bandits etc), it makes it really hard to remember which unit is good at which roles and you end up staring at their skill trees for really long, comparing them with other generals. Tone it down a little.

    5. (More of a suggestion really) Give the generic han (etc) generals different skill trees -- Already said in #4, but I really want to emphasise this a bit more. Having more skill trees per general type - like we do with the yellow turbans - would really add a lot to the mix, so that we don't have to build every vanguard the same way.
    Post edited by Wesu on
  • _aassassinoo__aassassinoo_ Registered Users Posts: 143
    1-adding deceive and espionage from sima lun to cao cao(better option) or credibility should have some effects when it is in high level.
    2-there should be some way increase rate of research.
    And lu zhi that have
    acsess to great library should have an advantage in techs.
    3-liu bei that have discount on militia units should have better milita units too.
    4-some thing that have not changed since release of the game is SKILL TREE.skill tree should be more advanced in variation and have some characteristics for each faction based on its ability.for example for ma tengs characters should be some skills related to cavalry units.
    Also it could be better if characters have a little randomize skills.(like yellow turban)
    5.adding some playable and non playable factions to far south of china.it is so much challenging to engage all of china in war.
    6-diplomacy:when you sign (for example)nap to a faction honoring it in long term should improve relations(not decreasing over time).
    Player can include some postive factors(buying vote of other members or give some ancillary to the faction that we want add) to add a faction to existing alliance.
    7-other factions should have access to captain retuine.
    8-cunning add more deployables in an army.
    9-tao qian faction source and special unit is not so special.it can be improved.
    10-each factions should have more variety in units accord to its faction(for example cao cao cavlary units are so good but expensive.it should have less strong and less expensive units.or maybe sun jian should have more variety in mercenaries).
    10-recruitment should be a little
    13-milita units should be weaker but increased in size(and special units stronger and less size)
    14-ancillaries are good mechanics.but it will be interesting if factions that have access to weapon smith (for example)can forge special and customized ancillary(for a cost of course).or it should be more fun if a faction special ability is forging more special ancillary.
    15-more wood and metal female heroes.
    16-normal characters should became legendary for his or her great dids.for example a character that win to much battles or kiled a lot of pepole in batlles should gain some special traits or legendary stats.
    In the end i know some of my ideas are not historical or it takes a lot of time and energy to do it(or maybe not so popular ideas)
    But it worth to doing at least some of theese changes in long term(as patch or at least dlc).
    Thanks for your attention
  • Ostubaf_CattoOstubaf_Catto Registered Users Posts: 164
    edited February 2020
    Two handed spear units (Peasant Band and Spear Warriors)- From their stat, it seems Two handed spear units are made for more aggressive anti cavalry role unlike their more passive counter part Spear Guard. However, they can't compete with Spear Guard at all because of how strong the range unit is and how polearm vs cav work in this game. They get slaughtered by range unit and Spear Warriors can't even use formation. Give them some tool to make them a viable choice in the battlefield as an aggressive anti cavalry unit like Yari Samurai's Rush ability or something. At least give Spear Warriors Spear Wall
    Post edited by Ostubaf_Catto on
  • danes256danes256 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2
    Hello James, I'm typing this in hope that you will read it because it is something that doesn't make sense in the game and really bothers me a lot.

    My problem is that when you appoint a character as a minister, it doesn't matter what their competence is, the bonus will be all the same. A character's competence only matters when you appoint them as an administrator.

    It just doesn't make sense to me, this result in players being more inclined to appoint their highly competent characters as an administrator to make full use of their ability and just put some random or unimportant character to a ministerial position.

    I believe a character's competence should also give more bonus if you appoint them as a minister, and not just if you appoint them as an administrator, and the bonus of being a minister will affect the faction as a whole, not just one commandery.

    I hope that you will address this issue soon.
  • nephlitenephlite Registered Users Posts: 407


    Hail of arrows is the most imbalance skill for now.
    It must be rebalance.
  • Whiskeyjack_5691Whiskeyjack_5691 Registered Users Posts: 4,243
    Heroes in Romance mode have a tendency to break unit formations, like spear wall, shield wall, turtle, etc.

    One of the changes introduced in patch 1.3.0 was that well-positioned infantry in certain defensive formations could dismount heroes that charge them head-on. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to actually work. Sometimes the hero will pull out of the charge at the last moment, and sort of trot into the front of infantry formation. This means he isn't dismounted, but what's worse is that the hero's attack animations can then lead to the hero actually jumping into the middle of the formation and then wading around through it. And thanks to that circle effect that opens up around heroes in Romance mode, the hero will then push and shove infantry units all over the place, eventually distorting the formation to such an extent that the unit breaks apart. Even Strategists can do this.
  • Miyuki_2Miyuki_2 Registered Users Posts: 18
    Lowering the fire rate of high rank archers might help lower their damage. Overall, I think there is too big of a gap between a Rank 1 and a Rank 10 unit.

    Archers that are not led by a strategist is pretty weak and runs out of ammo too often. Maybe lower the effect of wisdom but buff the amount of baseline ammo might help?
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,129
    Oh definitely. Archers fire WAY too fast. And this is a bit of a silly thing, but I really miss how in the older TW games there would be a bit of a longer animation for archers to fire. In 3K they rapid fire that stuff, they go from a resting position to having fired an arrow in less than a second, and IMO it looks odd and unpleasant to watch. Meanwhile I could watch how archers fire in Medieval 2 all day.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited February 2020
    Yep, ranged troops are way, way too powerful in this game. Reload speed for practically all ranged units should be halved at the very least.
  • ParagonBadgerParagonBadger Registered Users Posts: 91
    Thank you for taking the time to listen to us here!

    There's a couple balance things I can think of, off the top of my head. I'll mull them over and post them as my thoughts come together on it.

    Administrators

    Some character classes are a no-brainer for administrator. Generally, that means Champions or Strategists.

    Champions and Strategists both have 4(!) administrator skills. These two classes are ALSO really good in battle, given the established weakness of sword infantry and the strength of archer militia. Both of them can increase industry income and one or the other can boost commerce or peasantry income. Put the green guy in the green town and the blue guy in the blue town. Either of them can work for industry towns, largely squeezing out Sentinels under 'ideal' circumstances.

    Commanders, who ought to be really good administrators only have ONE administrator skill and a terrible one at that. -25% building upkeep is a pittance when upkeep is so cheap. Vanguards have the same skill.

    So Vanguards are pretty potent in battle (but their units are expensive!) and Commanders' melee cavalry is lackluster in comparison. Poor Commanders don't really have much of a place UNLESS you need a substitute strategist in an army. The Commander archetype includes many intelligent 'domestic' types. At the moment, most of them are faction leaders but as the game adds more heroes, I'm sure we'll get a bunch of commanders who... well, won't have much use for players.

    Another thing about administrators. They cannot perform assignments yet CAN lead armies. This is somewhat... strange.

    Speaking of assignments! It is strange that Vanguards exclusively get Conscription while assignments like Industrial Exploitation and Replenish Supplies/Reward the Filial & Incorrupt are shared between the others. Champions and Strategists are identical in this regard, while Sentinels also get an exclusive 'counteract corruption' assignment.

    All in all, I think on the domestic side of the game, Commanders are extraordinarily weak and the strongest classes for combat are really good domestically, too. Assuming no dearth of recruitment opportunities, I think you could really easily win the game with just Champions and Strategists.
  • GrandHistorian1GrandHistorian1 Registered Users Posts: 59
    Crossbows in Chinese history had consistently been said to hit harder and further than bows until around the mid-15th century in which what little crossbows they used became miniaturized into a side-arm (crossbows start firing at roughly 200 meters depending on source, whereas bows start firing at roughly 90 meters depending on source). Developers were correct to balance crossbows by slowing down their rate of fire.
  • Miyuki_2Miyuki_2 Registered Users Posts: 18
    Cavalry:
    There is always the issue of "why use melee cav to fight when you can just use shock cavs to wipe out a unit in 1 charge". This can go the other way around, why use shock cavs when melee cavs can charge just as good in wedge formation.

    A more diverse line of melee cavalry may help solve this issue. Shock Cavs remain as the unit with the most dangerous charge and lance giving shock cavs bonus vs large (which, for some reason, is hidden in unit stats).

    We can have axe cavs vs shielded units, some super tanky, non-jade-dragon cav unit similar to the grail guardian.

    Please look at the popularity of tech choices: maybe come techs can be made better.
  • ParagonBadgerParagonBadger Registered Users Posts: 91
    One way to balance Sword Cavalry is to give them force multiplier abilities befitting their relationship to commanders.

    Perhaps Sword Cavalry can have an inspiration aura that gives units a small morale boost. Much smaller than a hero's inspire but you can use it more often- and you can use their mobility to put them in thick battles where they're needed the most. While shock cavalry demands you micro manage them and cycle charge, sword cavalry is more of a 'bandaid' unit that you put in situations that need a little help.

    Given the recent rebalance's changes to morale, this is especially relevant.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,733
    edited February 2020
    Cavalry balance is harder than other units because of the additionnal layer of power coming from Impact Damage (aka the mass)

    ... I do wonder what would happen if CA tried to run tests where they reverted the AP damage ratio from 0.5 (Attila value) back to 0.3 (Rome 2 value). I seem to remember doing that for my own personnal soup in Attila and I seem to recall it did make it so cavalry wouldn't wipe units immediately... but it's been a while


    Anyways Earth cav should get a small innate buff to attack speed as I said in my "too precise" post because right now the only way to reliably do damage with cavalry is charging (and cycle charging) - sure they have higher Attack Rate than Fire cav but the difference is honnestly not very noticeable. Also again there have been multiple instances where my Earth cav tied a ranged unit but didn't charge (or at least didn't charge properly) because the unit was disjointed and then the AI just didn't give a flying damn about it (even going as far as shooting the cav point blank with bows...)
    _________________________________

    My personal collection of hazardous tests and quickfixes (yes this is a link).
    Wondering why you get some traits on your characters this may give you a vague idea

    Balance enthusiast, I like tinkering and messing with stuff and values. Cool heads prevails !
  • kweassa1kweassa1 Registered Users Posts: 814
    Oh, forgot this one.

    Unlike unit balance issues, I believe there is a undisputed consensus among players that...

    There is no reason to build tier9 and tier10 cities.

    The increase in bonus multipliers rarely overtake the disadvantages of exponential food requirements and increased public disorder. There is almost no advantage to build a glorious, top-level city... like, at all. As it stands, in most campaigns, tier9 and tier10 cities are just for show, and means to spend the extra money and food piling up .. because you have nothing else to do.


    I don't necessary disagree with the limitations imposed by food requirements, since it is an effective means to prevent players and AI from spamming the entire map with tier9, 10 cities. However, if a player decides to build just a handful of magnificent tier10 cities in his vast empire, there's got to be a reason for it.

    As it is, no such reason exists.



  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,733
    Upgrading to tier 9 gives you Tower level 3.
    And upgrading to tier 10 gives you a very high boost in commerce.

    I will agree I generally never build these cities either as the return on investment is poor but the AI still does - and sitll "foodrupts" itself doing so...
    _________________________________

    My personal collection of hazardous tests and quickfixes (yes this is a link).
    Wondering why you get some traits on your characters this may give you a vague idea

    Balance enthusiast, I like tinkering and messing with stuff and values. Cool heads prevails !
  • Miyuki_2Miyuki_2 Registered Users Posts: 18
    Units needs to be unlocked quicker, and the techs tied to them need to be more significant. By the time I get my onyx dragons, the game is pretty much over. For the important parts of the game, I am just using standard archers/crossbows, spearguards, standard tier 1 cavs. Mix in that one unique unit if it is worth using.

    The AI needs to learn how to replace units. This may have to do with how units never "die" in 3K. I should be seeing the AI use Imperial units more generously (but they also need to learn how to replenish those).
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