Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Top 14 uncontentious buffs for uncompetitive heroes for next patch

WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 474Registered Users
Is anyone opposed to any of these buffs, or at least the idea these units need a buff? Please focus on simple stat adjustments, as CA can't realistically change many game mechanics for the next patch.

1. Orion: Increase mass and knockback resistance to the level of Throgg so he can at least pretend to be an anti-large hunter.

2. Chaos lord & chaos sorcerer lord: +5 leadership.
These guys have terrible leadership (sorcerer lord has only 3 more than red skinks...), whereas on table top they had great leadership. Honestly they could use +10.

3. Sigvald: Give him his Sliverslash legendary sword for 200 g that doubles his attack speed for 40 seconds with 120 second cooldown.
He's basically Grimgor in stats without AP, not to mention Gotrek. 'Not dying' is not enough to be a cool legendary lord.

4. Khalida: Give Dodge (20% phys resist) and +10 bonus vs. infantry on foot (neither on serpent).
At 1100 base with absolutely nothing to offer on foot, she makes Sigvald look amazing. This way at least she can be the tanky foot lord and kill some infantry in the process, giving her a niche perhaps (probably still not). Her abilities all need a cost reduction too IMO, but let's start with giving her a niche.

6. Lokhir: Add Terror to Helm of the Kraken and reduce the price of it by 50 gold.
Felkon suggested making the Helm free to make him competitive, which is probably right, but let's start small and buff him mostly on foot first.

7. Khainite Assassin: Give Concealment Bombs.
On table top he could hide in units and pop out in surprise to kill an enemy character. He's not very sneaky in this game, more like a bodyguard than an assassin.

8. Hellebron: Reduce price of all abilities except Gaze of Khaine to 50 gold (not items).
Way too squishy and expensive. If she's to be a glass cannon, let's at least make her a cannon.

9. Nakai: -100 gold.
Still just way too expensive. He's worse than Throgg yet more expensive.

10. Gor-rok: +5 melee attack. 45 is exceptionally poor for a legendary melee lord.

11. Ungrim: +2 speed so he can catch most infantry. He's a slayer after all, albeit super heavily armored. He's honestly amazing compared to all the other foot lords in this list, but in the dwarf roster that's warranted.

12. Tehenhauin: +5 melee defence except when on stegadon. 45 is again terribly poor for a hybrid melee lord.

13. Tretch: Reduce price of 'stay here and I'll get help' to 40 g. He doesn't offer much other than staying alive, so let's make him better at that in a thematic way.

14. Queek: +5 charge bonus so he can maybe take some actual heads.

Discuss! :)
«13

Comments

  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,479Registered Users
    Most suggestions seem pretty sensible, although some won't be enough to make them competitive.

    I quite like the idea of sliverslash increasing attack speed, very slaaneshi.

    Orion getting more mass will only help him be a hunter if he gets more speed too, otherwise he can only "hunt" little foot lords.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,422Registered Users
    edited February 12


    Discuss! :)

    Right now. There is 4 Tier 1 factions in game, DE, Skaven, LZD, Empire(last one can be disscused).
    So

    1. WE
    2. Chaos
    3. Chaos
    4. TK
    6. DE check
    7. DE check
    8. DE check
    9.LZD check
    10. LZD check
    11. Dawi
    12. LZD check
    13. Skaven check
    14. Skaven.check

    So out of 13 suggested buffs 8 are for strongest factions in game right now(or 61% of proposed changes). Do not think that it is such good idea. I suggest main focus should be on nerfing overperfoming Lords of those factions.

    Oh and not suggesting buff for Ghorst. Are just biased.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,968Registered Users
    Could get behind most of them but I'd like to test 3... if we're talking about a flat 100% dps increase for 40 seconds that is a pretty big deal. If it's cutting the attack time in half it probably doesn't translate into as much though... okkams is +50% for 32 secs iirc for reference. Red ruin is 75% but then with a MD handicap.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,520Registered Users
    Ghorst r so bad he got left out of the bad lord list lol
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,422Registered Users

    Could get behind most of them but I'd like to test 3... if we're talking about a flat 100% dps increase for 40 seconds that is a pretty big deal. If it's cutting the attack time in half it probably doesn't translate into as much though... okkams is +50% for 32 secs iirc for reference. Red ruin is 75% but then with a MD handicap.

    It is foot Lord, that in 90% of cases would be cutting zombies/insert other chaff. Only reason to take him are that he is hard to kill.
    And Chaos faction lack tools to pin something in place for him to hit it.
    I suppose only dawi would be affected by this.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 474Registered Users
    edited February 12
    tank3487 said:


    Discuss! :)

    Right now. There is 4 Tier 1 factions in game, DE, Skaven, LZD, Empire(last one can be disscused).
    So

    1. WE
    2. Chaos
    3. Chaos
    4. TK
    6. DE check
    7. DE check
    8. DE check
    9.LZD check
    10. LZD check
    11. Dawi
    12. LZD check
    13. Skaven check
    14. Skaven.check

    So out of 13 suggested buffs 8 are for strongest factions in game right now(or 61% of proposed changes). Do not think that it is such good idea. I suggest main focus should be on nerfing overperfoming Lords of those factions.
    I'd say tier lists are almost uninformative at this point. What you call tier 1 is mostly factions that you cannot counterpick easily. It's better to look at balance from a MU-specific perspective. In that sense, for DE for example, I really don't see how a buff to the assassin, Lokhir and Hellebron will make any favorable MU any more favorable or vice versa. Maaaybe dwarfs.

    For Lizardmen, these buffs will I think help them particularly in their weakest MUs, namely Skaven and Dwarfs, so they should improve MU-specific balance.

  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 474Registered Users
    yst said:

    Ghorst r so bad he got left out of the bad lord list lol

    I forgot him, ha. Not sure how to balance him. I'm not even sure what he does without his corpse cart...
  • another505another505 Posts: 1,297Registered Users
    How about generic melee lords?

    HE Prince is trashed by princess which is already a niche choice too
    Bretonnian and Empire Lord/general, they arent worth their price and have horrible stats.
    Norsca generic lord that i forgot its name
    Dwarf lord - belegar is a better choice in tank for 100 gold more, you get silver shield and better MD.

    there are probably more of them being useless
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 2,208Registered Users
    I don't know if lady is supposed to support this thread if there is no Paladin change on this list. x) But I would not go so far and say that Lokhir is bad is just Malekith is just too good.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,422Registered Users
    edited February 12


    For Lizardmen, these buffs will I think help them particularly in their weakest MUs, namely Skaven and Dwarfs, so they should improve MU-specific balance.

    Dawi are not bad matchup for LZDs since last LZD DLC. It is map dependent, but if you check tournaments stats you would see that it is quite even. LZDs have all tools.
    As for Skaven, i do not agree that buffing two strong factions are the way to go.


    What you call tier 1 is mostly factions that you cannot counterpick easily.

    It is not just cannot counterpick easily, it is plenty of favorable matchups too.


    Maaaybe dwarfs.

    For DE. It is definitely dwarfs. Probably one more good option vs VC. I think nerf to Malekith are more healthy way for game balance to make Lokhir viable for example.

    Either way i do not see reason to focus on already oberbuffed factions. There is plenty of problematic Lords in Tier 2+ factions. And Ghorst of course.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,422Registered Users


    Norsca generic lord that i forgot its name

    Marauder Chieftain i believe
    This guy are at least 100 gold overpriced while on horse or foot.

  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 474Registered Users

    How about generic melee lords?

    HE Prince is trashed by princess which is already a niche choice too
    Bretonnian and Empire Lord/general, they arent worth their price and have horrible stats.
    Norsca generic lord that i forgot its name
    Dwarf lord - belegar is a better choice in tank for 100 gold more, you get silver shield and better MD.

    there are probably more of them being useless

    I agree. Most generic lords could be made cheaper. I think that's the most thematic way to balance them: make generics cheaper and legendary ones better at doing something unique.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 2,208Registered Users

    How about generic melee lords?

    HE Prince is trashed by princess which is already a niche choice too
    Bretonnian and Empire Lord/general, they arent worth their price and have horrible stats.
    Norsca generic lord that i forgot its name
    Dwarf lord - belegar is a better choice in tank for 100 gold more, you get silver shield and better MD.

    there are probably more of them being useless

    Bretonnian Lord and Empire General are far worse then most of these Lords on this list. They are pure Trash.
  • alpaca2alpaca2 Posts: 25Registered Users
    Mostly agree,
    Chaos sorcerer lord should also available for Norsca.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,422Registered Users


    Bretonnian Lord and Empire General are far worse then most of these Lords on this list. They are pure Trash.

    If you think that Empire General are bad. Try Norsca Chieftain.he cost 100 gold more and due to switch from MD to MA are more likely to get sniped.

  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Posts: 379Registered Users
    edited February 12
    Good thread and pretty good list, some in addition/ alternatives.

    1. Sliverslash
    Give Sliverslash Damage over Time (DOT)
    As an activatable ability. Counters cycle charging of Sigvald to an extent. Loreful and assists him as a dualist.

    2. Empire General. Hold your ground as standard ( no cost) -50 gold

    3. Bret Lord -100 gold

    4. HE Prince -50 gold

    5. Exalted hero -50 gold

    6. Bret paladin -50 gold

    7. Nakai -200 gold. 100 isn't enough

    8. Norse Chieftain -100 gold +50 to mammoth mount.

    9. Tretch - Bound slave summon x2

    10. Loremaster of Hoeth -25 gold. Beast passive as an option

    11. Repanse + speed to equal normal bret Knights.

    12. Arch Lector Mace of Helstrum. Inflicts -5 MA on the user +50% weapon damage AND + 50%AP damage. Cool down to 90 secs

    14. Witch Hunter -25 gold.

    15. Hellebron- 25 gold

    16. Malekith -2 MD on Seraphon. -25 gold to each item
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 2,208Registered Users
    Bret paladin des not need - cost but either AP and up cost or blue armor sudner active.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Posts: 1,749Registered Users
    11. Ungrim: +2 speed so he can catch most infantry. He's a slayer after all, albeit super heavily armored. He's honestly amazing compared to all the other foot lords in this list, but in the dwarf roster that's warranted.


    If you need speed to make a dwarf lord competitive, then there is something wrong with his design. The only amazing thing about Ungrim is his 16 MD once Red Ruin is activated. Truly unique. Judging by TT and other similar statted lords, he's missing about 20 MD.

    Likewise Grimgor and Grombrindal need more MD or HP. Grimgor can't even make it to frontline sometimes.

    Grombrindal can also use ITP or even unbreakable. The White Dwarf himself getting terrorised is a bit silly.

    Lastly another obligatory mention of knockdown immunity..

    ..there is no wonder Thorgrim and Skarsnik are better against large targets than Ungrim and Grimgor since the former are immune to constantly falling down, slowly getting up, getting hit in the back without responding, staggering around drunkenly etc.


    Chaos lord & chaos sorcerer lord: +5 leadership.
    These guys have terrible leadership (sorcerer lord has only 3 more than red skinks...), whereas on table top they had great leadership. Honestly they could use +10.


    If you make a comparison here:
    • HE Prince 10 LD on TT / 80 in game
    • Dreadlord 10 LD on TT / 80 in game
    • H. Beastmaster 9 LD on TT / 80 in game
    • Glade Lord 10 LD on TT / 70 in game
    • Dwarf Lord 10 LD on TT / 75 in game
    • Chaos Lord 9 LD on TT / 75 in game
    • Chaos S. Lord 8 LD on TT / 65 in game
    Unsurprisingly there is some inconsistency and WH2 characters are in another league here. So in comparison, Chaos Lord's LD seems fine, Chaos Sorcerer Lord could use +5
  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Posts: 698Registered Users
    edited February 12
    For an 'uncontentious' buff that Silverslash +100% attack speed ability for only 200g is pretty mad. It's more or less equivalent to +100% AP and +100 damage, more than any ability in the game gives you.

    There'll always be a market for a shielded, armoured, high HP, fast regen footlord in one or two MUs. There's no need for him to be a destroyer of worlds on top of that.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,875Registered Users
    agree on ungrim's buff, but no he's not amazing at all he's absolutely terrible and useless and his items are even worse.
  • another505another505 Posts: 1,297Registered Users

    How about generic melee lords?

    HE Prince is trashed by princess which is already a niche choice too
    Bretonnian and Empire Lord/general, they arent worth their price and have horrible stats.
    Norsca generic lord that i forgot its name
    Dwarf lord - belegar is a better choice in tank for 100 gold more, you get silver shield and better MD.

    there are probably more of them being useless

    I agree. Most generic lords could be made cheaper. I think that's the most thematic way to balance them: make generics cheaper and legendary ones better at doing something unique.
    Make them 100 gold cheaper to start
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,312Registered Users
    edited February 12
    Give me a 100 gold cheaper Glade Lords, pls. :)

    Good thread and pretty good list, some in addition/ alternatives.

    1. Sliverslash
    Give Sliverslash Damage over Time (DOT)
    As an activatable ability. Counters cycle charging of Sigvald to an extent. Loreful and assists him as a dualist.

    2. Empire General. Hold your ground as standard ( no cost) -50 gold

    3. Bret Lord -100 gold

    4. HE Prince -50 gold

    5. Exalted hero -50 gold

    6. Bret paladin -50 gold

    7. Nakai -200 gold. 100 isn't enough

    8. Norse Chieftain -100 gold +50 to mammoth mount.

    9. Tretch - Bound slave summon x2

    10. Loremaster of Hoeth -25 gold. Beast passive as an option

    11. Repanse + speed to equal normal bret Knights.

    12. Arch Lector Mace of Helstrum. Inflicts -5 MA on the user +50% weapon damage AND + 50%AP damage. Cool down to 90 secs

    14. Witch Hunter -25 gold.

    15. Hellebron- 25 gold

    16. Malekith -2 MD on Seraphon. -25 gold to each item

    1. Anything for Siggy

    2. Really? Empire General is decent

    3. Ok for Bret lord

    4. HE prince is also quite good

    5. Much more than -50 for Exalted Hero. Easily -100 or -150.

    6. Bret paladin -50? For God's sake, why???

    7. Ok, I guees, I've never used Nakai, so I can't say.

    8. Hmm... -100/+100 might work out better.

    9. Ok.

    10. Loremaster is ok, I think. You get competent fighter AND a caster, with 2 spells that are almost always useful (spirit leech and earthblood)

    11. Sure.

    12. Ok. Arch lector is decent. Rather have 120 sec cooldown, though.

    13. Witch Hunter - ok.

    14. Hellebron - ok

    15. Malekith - ok
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,875Registered Users
    8 9 and 10 aredebatable. I’ve seen the units do quite well.

    Otherwise good changes.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 8,156Registered Users
    tank3487 said:


    Discuss! :)

    Right now. There is 4 Tier 1 factions in game, DE, Skaven, LZD, Empire(last one can be disscused).
    So

    1. WE
    2. Chaos
    3. Chaos
    4. TK
    6. DE check
    7. DE check
    8. DE check
    9.LZD check
    10. LZD check
    11. Dawi
    12. LZD check
    13. Skaven check
    14. Skaven.check

    So out of 13 suggested buffs 8 are for strongest factions in game right now(or 61% of proposed changes). Do not think that it is such good idea. I suggest main focus should be on nerfing overperfoming Lords of those factions.

    Oh and not suggesting buff for Ghorst. Are just biased.
    You forgot TK in tier 1.

    But regardles of tiers of any faction, all things in a roster should be viable even in teir 1 factions.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,422Registered Users


    You forgot TK in tier 1.

    I view TK lower in tier power. Probably due to 3 factions that i play the most (VC, Norsca and dawi) being quite good pick vs TK. Even my secondary factions like HE or Chaos are not bad vs TK.


    But regardles of tiers of any faction, all things in a roster should be viable even in teir 1 factions.

    You can make them viable not by buffs. Nerfing things like Malekith on dragon can solve problems too.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 8,156Registered Users
    edited February 13
    tank3487 said:


    You forgot TK in tier 1.

    I view TK lower in tier power. Probably due to 3 factions that i play the most (VC, Norsca and dawi) being quite good pick vs TK. Even my secondary factions like HE or Chaos are not bad vs TK.


    But regardles of tiers of any faction, all things in a roster should be viable even in teir 1 factions.

    You can make them viable not by buffs. Nerfing things like Malekith on dragon can solve problems too.
    I view TK in top 3 with SKV and EMP, than DE and LZM closing the top 5 but i guess enough about tiers.

    But Nerfing stuff that doesn't deserve nerfs just to justify picking unpopular options is not how to balance.


    If you go by your statement than to make khalida viable you should nerf Sttra and arkhan? or to make sigvald and chaos lord viable you should nerf kholek and chicken? Nakai should be made viable by nerfing all other LZM lords? .... do you see how that approach is wrong way to attempt balancing.
    Post edited by Lotus_Moon on
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,422Registered Users


    I view TK in top 3 with SKV and EMP, than DE and LZM closing the top 5 but i guess enough about tiers.

    I suspect it is just different perception. For Elf factions silver shields undead chaff with strong SEMs and good long range options are quite scary options.For Dawi, Norsca, VC not so much.
    But with those 5 being above other factions i do agree.


    If you go by your statement than to make khalida viable you should nerf Sttra and arkhan? or to make sigvald and chaos lord viable you should nerf kholek and chicken? Nakai should be made viable by nerfing all other LZM lords? .... do you see how that approach is wrong way to attempt balancing.

    I just point that strong factions should be viewed from nerfs perspective more. Malekith dominating DE picks are main reason why quite good Lord options like Lokhir are not viable.

    As for Sigvald his main competition are other foot Lord option, not Kholek or Chicken. And he is too pricy for what he offers.
    Khalida on her snake are fine as it is, she is overpriced on foot, but it is not something unique.


    But Nerfing stuff that doesn't deserve nerfs just to justify picking unpopular options is not how to balance.

    If this stuff overshadow other good options maybe it does deserve nerf. Balancing just by buffs are wrong approach too. And if most of the list are already overbuffed factions there is something wrong.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,422Registered Users
    edited February 13


    8. Hmm... -100/+100 might work out better.

    He already got 200 gold price increase on Mammonth in last batch of Norsca nerfs. It is not cost effective to take basic chieftain right now.
    You perception are outdated.
  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 161Registered Users
    edited February 13
    Again, thread for buffing tier one factions mostly ?
    Yes , you want to buff unpicked things mostly which i like
    However nerfs for the autopicks for the certain MUs should come first OR buffs for the lower factions
    Tier one factions is still a thing-
    Lots of good MUs, little of bad or even NONE and big versatility
    These buffs will create even bigger chasm for those factions who lag behind
  • another505another505 Posts: 1,297Registered Users
    Yaa im iffy about buffing some tier one units
    They arent bad, but just outshined. And its unfair that bigger roster is so much better since they are good at everything.
Sign In or Register to comment.