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Expanding Bretonnia's Map

SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
edited February 16 in General Discussion
Despite their update and the addition of Massif Orcal, Bretonnia is still a rather static part of the map and 5-6 of the Bretonnian Dukedoms still don’t have factions of their own. If the Empire update is anything to go by, CA will no doubt add more regions to the map and make it physically bigger, but here’s an illustration of what they could do with the map they have now based on this map from the lore:






Here is the list of changes this would bring:

-This would add 10 new settlements and 5 new factions to Bretonnia, including Brionne, Aquitaine, the Skaven of Black Chasm, the Vampires of the Barrows and Quenelles.

-Lyonesse in the lore (just like in the Arthurian legend) exists on an island off the coast, similar to Mont Saint-Michel which still exists in the real-life Brittany:



-CA could now move the Red Duke to his rightful place in Aquitaine.

-No 5 would either be Larret, the second largest settlement in Artois, or Sigmarsheim, an Empire outpost in Bretonnia. If CA expanded the map size, both of these could be added and given to their proper faction, but for right now, It could go to Mousillon to give them better survivability.

-No 22 “Grave of Cuileux” would be ruins without an owner at the start of the game. Cuileux was once a Bretonnian Dukedom that was completely destroyed by a Greenskins horde in the year 900IC.

-No 17 “The Barrows of Cuileux” was the site of the Knights of Cuileux’s last stand against the Greenskin horde that destroyed their Dukedom. The noble knights were buried here In a Barrow the size of a town. Once a sacred place, the locals now stay away as it is said to be full of undead. This would make the perfect spot for a Vampire counts faction and since its right next to Aquitaine (Where the Red Duke is actually supposed to be) It would make for an excellent starting ally for him.

-No 18 Black Chasm is a massive abyss full of Skaven underground fortresses. In ages past, This was one of the first places Clan Pestilens colonized outside of Skavenblight before they became the repulsive plague rates we know them as today. The Clan abandoned all their holdings when they made their journey across to the New World and in their absence, Clan Eshen stepped in and colonized the derelict fortresses.

but when Pestilens returned from the new world, Eshen refused to give up their holdings and so the two Clans have been fighting ever since. In the Modern day, Pestilens has regained much of its strength and both Clans hold roughly equal control of the Chasm's Under-Empire, with the help of their allies (Eshen relies on Clan Moulders support, while Pestilens is supported by their uneasy alliance with Clan Flem).

There are a few options for who should be placed here: They could add a "Pestilens/Eshen Clan Nest" to the Chasm, just like they did with Rictus in Crookback Mountain, they could add Clan Flem here, or even place a Skaven LL here at some point if they saw fit.
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Comments

  • steph74steph74 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,355
    Good start, but I think each duchy should be independant with two regions. So no Parravon + Montfort or Artois + Gisoreux.

    I'll try to propose an alternate map if possible.
  • LabriaLabria Registered Users Posts: 716
    I like this idea. I hope CA will add more Bretonnia factions and Black Chasm in the future.
    Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne!
    Dwarfs need Slayer Lord pack: https://imgur.com/x74HxxU
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 4,292
    I really hope Bretonnia, SR and Kislev will get a rework for the final combined campaign map!
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    edited February 16
    steph74 said:

    Good start, but I think each duchy should be independant with two regions. So no Parravon + Montfort or Artois + Gisoreux.

    I'll try to propose an alternate map if possible.

    I agree wholeheartedly, The only reason I didn't do that is because there is no room for Monfort, Gisoreux or L'Anguille at the moment.

    I'd Love to see Larret going to Artois, Mousillon getting Castle Rochard, Sigmarsheim being its own thing, L'Anguille getting Grasgar Castle, Couronne getting Tancred Castle, Parravon getting Sanglac Castle, Gisoreux getting Castle Desfleuve, Monfort getting Tharravil (a secret town built on the richest goldmine in the world) and so on.

    They could even make almost every dukedom a 3 settlement province if they wanted to.
  • _Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Registered Users Posts: 1,119
    Yeah, absolutly Sean.

    Included your post to my conpilation list in the feedback and suggestion part of the forum:

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/258887/reworking-the-old-world-map-and-physically-extend-tilea-and-estalia/p1?new=1
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    edited February 16
    @_Mad_D0c_

    that's some really great work you did there Mad Doc and i'm glad to have added to it :)

    You can take my images and add them if you want.
  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 3,234
    More Vampires ? Sounds good.
  • steph74steph74 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,355

    Here is my own view of the map of Bretonnia
  • ChesterMcGirrChesterMcGirr Registered Users Posts: 383
    Concerned that adding more towns/province capitals to "good" factions will just feed order tide. Early undead, skaven and to an extent greenskins have poor AR chances with their opening units so not sure adding 1-2 isolated "bad" factions provides enough balance here.

    Lore is great and I'm all for more battle maps but balance needs to be upheld.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    edited February 16
    @steph74

    Wow that's really good, did you make that just now?

    a few things I'd say about it though is that some of the locations are lore-friendly, but don't make as much sense from a balancing perspective.

    Humble Chapel is now right outside Black chasm, probably less than 1 full turns worth of movement away. I moved it to the otherside of Bastonne because there's almost nothing over there, it creates a bit of a crossroads between Mousillon and Turris Vigilans and now Black chasm has to go past the walled settlement to get to the minor one.

    This is the same reason I placed Summerfall Fort on the otherside of Carcassone, now its sitting on the otherside of Athel Loren and acts as a stepping stone betwene Carcassone and Estalia.

    The Chateau D'Epee is even closer to Bordeleux than the other 2 I mentioned.

    Lyonesse isn't on an Island in the map.

    I totally agree with monfort, Couronne and L'angulle.

    maybe flip the settlements in Parravon.

    Gisoreux has named settlements you could use rather than calling it "the forest". There is Castle Desfleuve and Valle Florida (the largest village in the province). you could also name it "Nomadic Enclave" or something like that, to represent the nomads that live in the forest of the province.
  • steph74steph74 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,355
    I made it a bit quickly from a world map I'm using as a support for the design of my mod.

    I agree it's not perfect, but that comes also from the strange shape CA used for their map compared to some of the refences we have, like the map you included in the OP. Look at Brionne or l'Anguille for exemple, they are not where they should be.

    And I tried not to move too much things (l'Anguille is the exception to put it next to the river), so I don't screw my "official" map too much. I agree Lyonesse should be an island, but here I just used existing landmasses.

    The Humble Chapel maybe better eastwards, but maybe this also require reshaping the border of Bastonne (and may be moving Bastonne a bit to the South).

    For Parravon, I thing the settlements shouldn't be flipped, but Parravon should actually be moved north of the River.

    Castle Defleuve would be too close to Fort Bergbres I think, maybe we could use Uesin instead, even if it is in Artois.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,704
    edited February 16

    Concerned that adding more towns/province capitals to "good" factions will just feed order tide. Early undead, skaven and to an extent greenskins have poor AR chances with their opening units so not sure adding 1-2 isolated "bad" factions provides enough balance here.

    Lore is great and I'm all for more battle maps but balance needs to be upheld.

    Yep, that's all that happens. If that much territory is added to Bretonnia, then greatly worsen the relationships between the Bretonnian so frequent feuds are the results. NO. MORE. ORDERTIDE! Ever again.

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    @setph74

    Yeah, Like I said in my OP, I think CA will need to actually expand and reshape the Bretonnian Landmass to accommodate alot of this new stuff.

    Castle Defleuve basically is Fort Bergbres, but they could Just use the name and shift it where it needs to be (they've done it before). Uesin or Valle Florida would probably be a better bet.
  • ReghisReghis Registered Users Posts: 446
    Labria said:

    I like this idea. I hope CA will add more Bretonnia factions and Black Chasm in the future.

    and rework their confederation mechanics to stop the brets from getting even more powerful with all that extra provinces
    My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperial, can you say the same?


  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    Reghis said:

    Labria said:

    I like this idea. I hope CA will add more Bretonnia factions and Black Chasm in the future.

    and rework their confederation mechanics to stop the brets from getting even more powerful with all that extra provinces
    I don't think Bretonnia should be able to confederate at all, it doesn't fit their lore, they should be all about vassals and creating new Dukedoms (similar to defenders fo the great plan, except they can defend themselves)
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 4,292
    steph74 said:


    Here is my own view of the map of Bretonnia

    Perfection!

    @CA_Rich_A @CA_James @CA_Duck
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    @ArneSo

    I found out recently that apparently you're meant to Personal message CA staff rather than @ing them (According to the terms and service). @ing them here won't bring a response I don't think.
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 4,292
    edited February 16

    @ArneSo

    I found out recently that apparently you're meant to Personal message CA staff rather than @ing them (According to the terms and service). @ing them here won't bring a response I don't think.

    Ehm I actually never directly messaged anyone from CA. You must mean someone else. 😂

    Edit:
    Oh sorry misunderstood your comment. Should read more carefully before commenting.
  • EdhwenEdhwen Registered Users Posts: 220
    edited February 16
    It would be nice! I hoped this in wood elves campaign on warhammer 1. But I doubt it... Perhaps in warhammer 3
  • Pr4vdaPr4vda Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 977
    I really like the 1st map. The 2nd seems a bit crowded on some parts.

    I think that even if 3 dukedoms are added, putting 2 undead towns + black chasm would even the odds.

    Cuileux, Black Chasm and Massif Orcal should start with a garrison building (like Moussilon) and a 10/15 units army to be sure they are an early threat and remains it for more than 10 turns though.

    That way, they would give a harder start for Bretonnia.

    In fact such things should be the same for some other places. Like the GS inside the empire for instance.
    Team Dawis

    Dawis shall purge all their fallen Karaks, with the blood of the Greeskins and the skavens !
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    @Pr4vda

    Oh yeah, the Leaf Cutters are a joke right now, and they actually make Empire campaigns annoying for the wrong reasons. Instead of weacking havoc, they instead make Marrienberg, Middenland and Nordland best friends because they all kick their teeth in. This makes taking Marienberg as a province back for the Empire a pain because now you're going to **** off the Ulric factions in the process.

    If we get Aquitaine, the Red Duke could go there and then Bretonnia would have to deal with Aquitaine, Massif Orcal, The Vampires in the Barrows, the Skaven and Mousillon (Mallabaude?). If CA gave them all inherently good relations with each other and made Kemmler and the WE's AI active again, then Bretonnia would be almost half and half.
  • VildvargVildvarg Registered Users Posts: 212
    edited February 16

    Concerned that adding more towns/province capitals to "good" factions will just feed order tide. Early undead, skaven and to an extent greenskins have poor AR chances with their opening units so not sure adding 1-2 isolated "bad" factions provides enough balance here.

    Lore is great and I'm all for more battle maps but balance needs to be upheld.

    I don't know if that would be as much of a problem if they fixed VC AI, putting Kemmler in Bretonia turned most of it into a vampiric wasteland before they lobotomized his AI.

    I'm aggravated at the Ordertide as well, but I do think adding in some early enemies might not be an entirely bad idea.
  • xBlood_RavenxBlood_Raven Registered Users Posts: 311
    Definitely agree with giving Bretonnia an expanded role in the campaign map. A few points to add:

    1. Just some more factions which are L'Anguille, Gisoreux and Montfort as they are Dukedoms as well.
    2. The ruler of Mousillon should be Mallobaude (a possible LL down the line I hope). The Red Duke can be moved elsewhere.
    3. I disagree with some users in terms of Ordertide as more Bretonnia factions should lead to more conflicts or make it harder to confederate each other. Bretonnia should then not be united as fast (or at all). Read my idea below in terms of a Civil War scenario.

    I made a post on how Bretonnia could be expanded in the future if anyone here is interested.

    https://old.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/aycg0l/bretonnia_expansion_and_ideasbastonne_and/
  • Ingr8Ingr8 Registered Users Posts: 423

    If the Empire update is anything to go by, CA will no doubt add more regions to the map and make it physically bigger, but here’s an illustration of what they could do with the map they have now based on this map from the lore:

    Bretonnia have already had their rework, back in April 2019:

    https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-ii-patch-notes-the-doomsayer-update/

    Look, it even says "rework" in the text.



    I doubt there are any plans to do anything with the regions again
    Dreaming of mighty Lumbria

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    @xBlood_Raven

    As I said in the OP, I'm working within the landmass we have right now. I agree that we should get those 3, but we cant with the current landmass, not if we add all this as well.

    Its good to know you made a post similar to the one I'm working on currently, I'll defo give it a read :)

    I don't think bretonnia should confederate at all tbh, they're very decentralized and more about vassals than confeds.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    Ingr8 said:

    If the Empire update is anything to go by, CA will no doubt add more regions to the map and make it physically bigger, but here’s an illustration of what they could do with the map they have now based on this map from the lore:

    Bretonnia have already had their rework, back in April 2019:

    https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-ii-patch-notes-the-doomsayer-update/

    Look, it even says "rework" in the text.



    I doubt there are any plans to do anything with the regions again
    I'm not over exadurating when I say that other factions (I cant remember which) got more out of the bretonnian """"""""""""rework"""""""""""""" than bretonnia did.

    their rework amounted to what is essentially a bug fix, a patch and a nerf...that was it.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 1,950
    edited February 16
    @xBlood_Raven

    Hmm, I noticed you mentioned "avenging angels". it seems betonnia makes mention of many different ghost units, including ghostly bowman, spirits of the land, the knights of Cuileux and stuff like that.

    I'm not really a fan of the Idea of Bretonnia getting a load of ghost units. I know its in the lore and all but does it really fit their aesthetic?

    I feel they would be better giving them new, more grounded medieval units even if they have to make them up.

    Also, I think Crusades and errantry wars should be separate mechanics. Crusades should go to Repanse and function similar to the empire reinforcements and jungle escelation mechanics that Wulfhart has.

    Errantry wars on the other hand should work like Jihads from medieval 2 and be tied to public order. they could be linked to chivalry as you say, but be activated like rites, with a different one for each of the enemies of bretonnia. they'd give you buffs to public order, recruit rank and cost, but would put you on a ticking clock to finish the errantry war or else you start to suffer greatly for not fulfilling your promises.
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 4,292

    Definitely agree with giving Bretonnia an expanded role in the campaign map. A few points to add:

    1. Just some more factions which are L'Anguille, Gisoreux and Montfort as they are Dukedoms as well.
    2. The ruler of Mousillon should be Mallobaude (a possible LL down the line I hope). The Red Duke can be moved elsewhere.
    3. I disagree with some users in terms of Ordertide as more Bretonnia factions should lead to more conflicts or make it harder to confederate each other. Bretonnia should then not be united as fast (or at all). Read my idea below in terms of a Civil War scenario.

    I made a post on how Bretonnia could be expanded in the future if anyone here is interested.

    https://old.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/aycg0l/bretonnia_expansion_and_ideasbastonne_and/

    The Red Duke should get moved to Aquitaine.

    If each Dukedom would become its own province we would have 3 VC factions in or around Bretonnia to finally make that area a little bit more diverse and interesting.

    Then we would only need Dieter Helsnicht in Middenland and Zacharias in Ostland to make the Old world interesting again.
  • Ingr8Ingr8 Registered Users Posts: 423


    I'm not over exadurating when I say that other factions (I cant remember which) got more out of the bretonnian """"""""""""rework"""""""""""""" than bretonnia did.

    their rework amounted to what is essentially a bug fix, a patch and a nerf...that was it.

    You might not be "exadurating" but you are definitely exaggerating! They changed the Vows system, reworked their garrisons, amended the green knight mechanics etc.

    It was quite a comprehensive revisit. The release notes are all there in my previous post.
    Dreaming of mighty Lumbria

  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 3,234

    Ingr8 said:

    If the Empire update is anything to go by, CA will no doubt add more regions to the map and make it physically bigger, but here’s an illustration of what they could do with the map they have now based on this map from the lore:

    Bretonnia have already had their rework, back in April 2019:

    https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-ii-patch-notes-the-doomsayer-update/

    Look, it even says "rework" in the text.



    I doubt there are any plans to do anything with the regions again
    I'm not over exadurating when I say that other factions (I cant remember which) got more out of the bretonnian """"""""""""rework"""""""""""""" than bretonnia did.

    their rework amounted to what is essentially a bug fix, a patch and a nerf...that was it.
    Compared to other WH1 races Bretonnia didn't need much in their rework tbh. And they still don't.
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