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Where are most Mercenaries from? Oh yeah from Tilea.
Incorrect.
Most Mercenaries are BASED in Tilea. That does not mean they originate from there. It simply means that most of the mercenary work is available in Tilea.
Where are all those DoW LLs from again? Oh yeah from Tilea.
Incorrect.
Many of the DoW characters come from different places than Tilea. If you are asking where the Tilean LLs (as in the rulers of Tilean cities), then obviously they come from Tilea. But then they aren't Dogs of War... See how taht works?
Where is Tilea again? Oh yeah in the Southern Realms.
Correct. So? Geographical location have very little bearing on the subject matter at hand. Especially considering the fact that TIlea has a very distinct and different culture from Estalia and the Border Princes' (non-existant) cultures.
Playing Borgio the Besieger means ruling Miragliano, period.
Indeed. However... Borgio is not a Dog of War... Borgio is a Tilean lord who made use of the mercenary armies that make their services available for hire.
How is taht such a hard concept to fathom?
Are you for real?
Borgio is THE DoW armybook character, next to Lucrezzia, Lorenzo, Mydas and Marco Colombo who is dead. All of them are from Tilea or live there.
Borgio is like Karl Franz for the DoW.
SR don’t have any source material so DoW would work to make them playable.
Where are most Mercenaries from? Oh yeah from Tilea.
Incorrect.
Most Mercenaries are BASED in Tilea. That does not mean they originate from there. It simply means that most of the mercenary work is available in Tilea.
They actually are by majority Tilean. Even then half of Mercenary regiments in any DoW list had Tilean origins and thus making a DoW race that isn't Tilea-based would be inaccurate to the TT.
Where are all those DoW LLs from again? Oh yeah from Tilea.
Incorrect.
Many of the DoW characters come from different places than Tilea. If you are asking where the Tilean LLs (as in the rulers of Tilean cities), then obviously they come from Tilea. But then they aren't Dogs of War... See how taht works?
Mercenary captains are but actual character choices, that is mercenary generals, are by majority Tilean. Mercenary captains are just named characters in these mercenary bands but they aren't really built to be LL choices fom that. Now, few of them like Golgfag could but that's because a different book brought them up to this level not because they were so in DoW. Borgio, Lucrezzia, Lorenzo, Mydas, those are the actual characters and generals.
And what are they doing there? Oh yeah they rule city states.
Incorrect.
Dogs of War do not rule city states. Local lords in Tilea rule the city states. These lords make use of mercenary armies.
Yeah, the characters as stated before do for the most part. Only living character from DoW book that doesn't is Mydas and among the dead Leonardo. ArneSo was talking about characters, mercenary generals, not mercenary captains. The sole exception from the two lists is that one Hobgoblin who appeared in the 6th ed ravening hordes DoW list.
Where is Tilea again? Oh yeah in the Southern Realms.
Correct. So? Geographical location have very little bearing on the subject matter at hand. Especially considering the fact that TIlea has a very distinct and different culture from Estalia and the Border Princes' (non-existant) cultures.
Which isn't entirely in line with how they're treated by the books. The main rulebooks usually conflate Estalia and Tilea as the two southern human realms and do note the distinction between them but Estalia never really was developed so much. Giving it the same culture as Tilea is better representative of Estalia than keeping it an Empire clone.
Border Prince however aren't even united in culture but it does serve as the single place where mercenaries can create their homes. In fact, it is noted that Tilean and mercenary characters aren't that different when they settle in the Border Princes so keeping some parts as SR isn't incorrect. Still, Border Princes are a unique case because they really have no unifying feature other than that they are all different.
Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
Let's be realistic here - if the Southern Realms got their own list, what's it going to be based on? Bingo - the DoW list.
I think it is fair to say that there's a distinction between whether a particular character is a Tilean prince or a mercenary general (although some characters were both during their lives - Borgio the Besieger, for instance, was a mercenary general until he became powerful enough to take over a city) - but this is on the level of the distinction between Nakai and Gor-rok, not different races. Mercenary generals using horde mechanics and Tilean princes using conventional settled faction mechanics can and probably should use the same lists as one another.
I would agree with you on everything other than horde mechanics. Get that nonsense out of here, if there's one thing CA proved it's that hordes don't blend well into an empire building game. The only ones that worked are the ones that are primarily settled with horde stuff as secondary additions. Namely Norsca(great raiding), Wood Elves(replenish and rebuilt armies on the run) and Vampire Coast(although they lack some drawbacks).
Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
I am so extremely tired of people equating Dogs of War with Southeren Realms....
Yeah it’s not like half of the LL of the dogs of wars ruled cities in the southern realm... ho wait they did !
The Lords in the Dogs of War list, are not actaully mercenaries, but are literally Tilean princes and lords... Is that cocnept really so hard? It isn't complex.. It isn't abstract.. It is really straight forward....
I am so extremely tired of people equating Dogs of War with Southeren Realms....
Yeah it’s not like half of the LL of the dogs of wars ruled cities in the southern realm... ho wait they did !
The Lords in the Dogs of War list, are not actaully mercenaries, but are literally Tilean princes and lords... Is that cocnept really so hard? It isn't complex.. It isn't abstract.. It is really straight forward....
Yep, the LL of the dog of war are southern realms but they are different you see because... oh yeah, you say so. 🤣
I am so extremely tired of people equating Dogs of War with Southeren Realms....
Both are the same.
Southern Realms are City states using mercenaries and DoW are mercenaries fighting for City states in the southern realms. Combine these two things and you get a great race.
The faction will be a SR City state while the unit roster is represented by DoW units.
But DoW alone as a bunch of wandering mercenaries is not enough for a race and also doesn’t make munch sense.
SR alone also don’t have enough units to become a race without using DoW material.
SR + DoW + Amazons + Araby + Halflings = a perfect race
Incorrect in the extreme....
Dogs of War are mercenaries. Period. End of story. They do not exclusively fight for, or even originate from, Tilean city states. Dogs of War are groups of mercenaries from literally all of the Warhammer races, fighting for whoever gives them the coin they require.
"Southeren Realms" are a disparate group of nations in the southeren part of the Old World, that have literally no cultural commonality.
Tilea is a connection of city states, with varying and tumultuous relations between each other and the world. They often use mercenaries to fight their battles, since actually supplying the manpower for their continued conflicts on their own, would decimate the city states' populations.
Estalia is a collection of destitute kingdoms in the Southwestern part of the Old World. And while they are also lacking a centralized government as Tilea, they have a very distinct and seperate culture from the Tileans. In fact, the Estalians get so offended by being confused for Tileans, that they have been known to slay any person who makes that mistake. No mention in ANY of the Estalian lore, says that they have an extensive use of mercenaries.
The Border Princes are a hotpodge of different and distinct cultures and "states". Often a Prince is a political or religious refugee from The Empire, Kislev or Bretonnia. Militarily speaking, a Prince in the Border Princes would most likely not be able to afford a large Mercenary army, and would probably band together with neighboring Princes, if the need to amass forces were ever to rise.
Dogs of War, as a faction, is one of the few factions where having them in a "horde style gameplay" would actually make sense. Since to play as the Dogs of War, would NOT be to play as Tilea. PLaying as the Dogs of War you would be controlling a mercenary army, not a city state.
Except that one of the dogs of war LL rules Miragliano which is probably the most powerful city state in Tilea, and another of the Dogs of War lords rules over the Principality of Pavona in Tilea. And a third LL is the ruler of city-state of Luccini in Tilea and home to one of the strongest navy's in the old world.
A short summary of Estalia and Tilea in each edition, sources:
Warhammer Battle Bestiary (4ed) Warhammer Battle Book (5ed) Warhammer Fantasy Battles (7ed) Warhammer Fantasy Battles (8ed)
7th and 8th edition had world reviews integrated into their rulebooks while 4th and 5th had separate books for that.
So they are usually summarized alongside each other, with 7th edition mentioning them under their own heading. Making them of the same culture isn't that bad if you ask me.
Tilea is also noted as having actual mercenary tendencies rather than simply utilizing mercenaries. Thus, making the mercenary armies theirs wouldn't be that far off from the truth as it isn't simply that they hire them but also are renowned for their homebrew mercenaries. It also means that the armybook material can be adapted without wondering why your predominantly Tilean armies are under a Hobgoblin in the Chaos Wastes.
Why are we having these discussions constantly? DoW aren't a unified race, they are disparate bands of mercs that are unified by an employer, which can't be any one of the mercenary captains as they are that, mercenaries that only want cash. Also, I would argue different areas have different mercenaries there so you won't even have a consistent army composition of mercenary armies across the world. On the other hand, we know mercenary armies of Tilea when that's been the focus of the book AND other supplements!
The most prominent employer for them has been Tilea in both lists. You can't exactly make a distinction between Tilea and DoW when Tilea has been built into DoW armybook so heavily. Sure, mercs exist everywhere but the ones that got explored were the ones within the confines of Tilea.
I won't say only Tileans would use these armies. I always argued for Morgan Bernhardt to be an LL Mercenary General for DoW and he would probably be the odd one out of the bunch. I would also argue for making mercenaries available to at least their original homeland if they had one. But majority of DoW character would be based in Tilea one way or the other.
Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
Well I don't think the term "southern realms" ever existed in the lore or TT... its something CA created more or less accidental.
in the TT they only had the DoW represent them for a while at least.
And while people may cry that mercenaries don't run cities (some of the same want WoC cities...) or identical with the government, for TW you are the defactor government if you control the military.
First of all, Dogs of War never got a 6th edition Army Book. They were discontinued after the 5th ed.
Second of all, even that army book underlines that the mercenaries aren't primarily Tilean, but rather that mercenaries are primarily HUMAN. The Dogs of War however, mostly operate out of Tilea, since that is where business is most plentiful. The point of a Dogs of War list, contrary to a Tilea (or even the "Southeren Realms" abomination people seem to fancy), is that it would give a "Dogs of War experience". Meaning you would be playing a roaming band of mecenaries. Not an empire builder.
Sure, one of the factions could be led by Borgio (or one of the other princes) and offer the more traditional "static" Total War experience. But if you want to stay true to the spirit of the Dogs of War, you need to implement them as a "Horde-style faction". Of course the current Horde-gameplay would need to be overhauled and improved, but what better time to do so, than with the inroducting of such a faction?
Their Legendary Lords could be literally any of the named characters in both the Army Book and the Regiments of Renown articles from White Dwarf.
In summary: If you want a Tilea faction, then it will be drawing exclusively on the Dogs of War list. If you want a Dogs of War list, it have no geographical shackles and would offer a creative freedom for the developers at CA, to make something actually worthy of the Dogs of War.
First of all, Dogs of War never got a 6th edition Army Book. They were discontinued after the 5th ed.
Second of all, even that army book underlines that the mercenaries aren't primarily Tilean, but rather that mercenaries are primarily HUMAN. The Dogs of War however, mostly operate out of Tilea, since that is where business is most plentiful. The point of a Dogs of War list, contrary to a Tilea (or even the "Southeren Realms" abomination people seem to fancy), is that it would give a "Dogs of War experience". Meaning you would be playing a roaming band of mecenaries. Not an empire builder.
Sure, one of the factions could be led by Borgio (or one of the other princes) and offer the more traditional "static" Total War experience. But if you want to stay true to the spirit of the Dogs of War, you need to implement them as a "Horde-style faction". Of course the current Horde-gameplay would need to be overhauled and improved, but what better time to do so, than with the inroducting of such a faction?
Their Legendary Lords could be literally any of the named characters in both the Army Book and the Regiments of Renown articles from White Dwarf.
In summary: If you want a Tilea faction, then it will be drawing exclusively on the Dogs of War list. If you want a Dogs of War list, it have no geographical shackles and would offer a creative freedom for the developers at CA, to make something actually worthy of the Dogs of War.
It's funny because I'm looking at the DoW 6th ed armybook right now but it must be a dream since it doesn't exist ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The real reason the Southern Realms will be implemented as "The Dogs of War" is because it's a better name. Same way "Vampire Coast" beat out "Zombie Pirates" even though the name only refers to one faction. It'll sell better.
First of all, Dogs of War never got a 6th edition Army Book. They were discontinued after the 5th ed.
Second of all, even that army book underlines that the mercenaries aren't primarily Tilean, but rather that mercenaries are primarily HUMAN. The Dogs of War however, mostly operate out of Tilea, since that is where business is most plentiful. The point of a Dogs of War list, contrary to a Tilea (or even the "Southeren Realms" abomination people seem to fancy), is that it would give a "Dogs of War experience". Meaning you would be playing a roaming band of mecenaries. Not an empire builder.
Sure, one of the factions could be led by Borgio (or one of the other princes) and offer the more traditional "static" Total War experience. But if you want to stay true to the spirit of the Dogs of War, you need to implement them as a "Horde-style faction". Of course the current Horde-gameplay would need to be overhauled and improved, but what better time to do so, than with the inroducting of such a faction?
Their Legendary Lords could be literally any of the named characters in both the Army Book and the Regiments of Renown articles from White Dwarf.
In summary: If you want a Tilea faction, then it will be drawing exclusively on the Dogs of War list. If you want a Dogs of War list, it have no geographical shackles and would offer a creative freedom for the developers at CA, to make something actually worthy of the Dogs of War.
I think I pretty clearly said army list. The Ravening Hordes had an army list to represent the Dogs of War and it updated many of the RoR and characters to 6th ed. It is also one of the few places that gave some generic units rather than individual bands of mercs. These were still fully usable in 6th edition and were also part of the GW held campaigns of these editions. I can bring up the Albion campaign which actually was given official results in White Dwarf article with analysis of battles and contained Dogs of War as a valid army. For the record, it also included Chaos Dwarfs as a valid army as they were also given a Ravening Hordes article.
Except that mercenary armies don't exist as solitary entities. They exist in the employ of others. In addition, mercenaries in different areas of the world would not be the same so the only ones that were explored are Tilea based armies while what armies in, let's say, Far East, Darklands, MoM, Naggaroth would look like was not. To make them anything else would require material that doesn't exist.
Horde style gameplay will never work. There were several chances to fix it, none worked.
The same way you claim that Tilean rulers aren't mercenary generals by default I note that mercenary captains aren't mercenary generals at all. They command their own mercenary bands not entire mercenary armies. They are inherently not meant to lead armies or factions. Therefore, you have yet to name a mercenary general you would make out as LLs that make sense and aren't Tileans.
Uff, yes, CA can be completely creative with an armybook that quite clearly relies on Tilea for its composition. Let ME put it like this, Dogs of War were never independent armies. They were bands of units hired by other factions of Warhammer OR they were mercenary armies under Tilea. That's all they ever were. So when you talk of what is worthy of DoW, they are worthy of being regiments for other armies or the core element of Southern Realms. Your generalized mercenary armies would literally require CA to build them up from almost nothing.
Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
The real reason the Southern Realms will be implemented as "The Dogs of War" is because it's a better name. Same way "Vampire Coast" beat out "Zombie Pirates" even though the name only refers to one faction. It'll sell better.
"Riches of the Southern Realms" sounds like a fun title to me.
Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
Not just Ravening Hordes - Warhammer Chronicles 2004 updated DoW fully to 6E, and every 6E army book except Bretonnia had a space for inserting DoW as a Rare choice (and that's a Bretonnian thing - it's been a theme throughout 6E that the Bretonnians consider it dishonourable to use mercenaries).
It was a stopgap (there was a stopgap Wood Elves list in the same book) and obviously it got discontinued before a full army book was made, but the assumption that the Dogs of War would someday be a fully realised army book was there throughout 6E.
Not just Ravening Hordes - Warhammer Chronicles 2004 updated DoW fully to 6E, and every 6E army book except Bretonnia had a space for inserting DoW as a Rare choice (and that's a Bretonnian thing - it's been a theme throughout 6E that the Bretonnians consider it dishonourable to use mercenaries).
It was a stopgap (there was a stopgap Wood Elves list in the same book) and obviously it got discontinued before a full army book was made, but the assumption that the Dogs of War would someday be a fully realised army book was there throughout 6E.
And Chronicles 2003 had the characters updated. That is, the timeline recent ones in Borgio, Lucrezzia, Lorenzo, Mydas and, uh, Ghazak Khan.
Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
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Comments
Borgio is THE DoW armybook character, next to Lucrezzia, Lorenzo, Mydas and Marco Colombo who is dead. All of them are from Tilea or live there.
Borgio is like Karl Franz for the DoW.
SR don’t have any source material so DoW would work to make them playable.
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2 · Disagree AgreeBorder Prince however aren't even united in culture but it does serve as the single place where mercenaries can create their homes. In fact, it is noted that Tilean and mercenary characters aren't that different when they settle in the Border Princes so keeping some parts as SR isn't incorrect. Still, Border Princes are a unique case because they really have no unifying feature other than that they are all different.
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2 · Disagree Agree- Report
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1 · Disagree AgreeA short summary of Estalia and Tilea in each edition, sources:
Warhammer Battle Bestiary (4ed)
Warhammer Battle Book (5ed)
Warhammer Fantasy Battles (7ed)
Warhammer Fantasy Battles (8ed)
7th and 8th edition had world reviews integrated into their rulebooks while 4th and 5th had separate books for that.
So they are usually summarized alongside each other, with 7th edition mentioning them under their own heading. Making them of the same culture isn't that bad if you ask me.
Tilea is also noted as having actual mercenary tendencies rather than simply utilizing mercenaries. Thus, making the mercenary armies theirs wouldn't be that far off from the truth as it isn't simply that they hire them but also are renowned for their homebrew mercenaries. It also means that the armybook material can be adapted without wondering why your predominantly Tilean armies are under a Hobgoblin in the Chaos Wastes.
Why are we having these discussions constantly? DoW aren't a unified race, they are disparate bands of mercs that are unified by an employer, which can't be any one of the mercenary captains as they are that, mercenaries that only want cash. Also, I would argue different areas have different mercenaries there so you won't even have a consistent army composition of mercenary armies across the world. On the other hand, we know mercenary armies of Tilea when that's been the focus of the book AND other supplements!
The most prominent employer for them has been Tilea in both lists. You can't exactly make a distinction between Tilea and DoW when Tilea has been built into DoW armybook so heavily. Sure, mercs exist everywhere but the ones that got explored were the ones within the confines of Tilea.
I won't say only Tileans would use these armies. I always argued for Morgan Bernhardt to be an LL Mercenary General for DoW and he would probably be the odd one out of the bunch. I would also argue for making mercenaries available to at least their original homeland if they had one. But majority of DoW character would be based in Tilea one way or the other.
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1 · Disagree Agreein the TT they only had the DoW represent them for a while at least.
And while people may cry that mercenaries don't run cities (some of the same want WoC cities...) or identical with the government, for TW you are the defactor government if you control the military.
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0 · Disagree AgreeSecond of all, even that army book underlines that the mercenaries aren't primarily Tilean, but rather that mercenaries are primarily HUMAN. The Dogs of War however, mostly operate out of Tilea, since that is where business is most plentiful. The point of a Dogs of War list, contrary to a Tilea (or even the "Southeren Realms" abomination people seem to fancy), is that it would give a "Dogs of War experience". Meaning you would be playing a roaming band of mecenaries. Not an empire builder.
Sure, one of the factions could be led by Borgio (or one of the other princes) and offer the more traditional "static" Total War experience. But if you want to stay true to the spirit of the Dogs of War, you need to implement them as a "Horde-style faction". Of course the current Horde-gameplay would need to be overhauled and improved, but what better time to do so, than with the inroducting of such a faction?
Their Legendary Lords could be literally any of the named characters in both the Army Book and the Regiments of Renown articles from White Dwarf.
In summary: If you want a Tilea faction, then it will be drawing exclusively on the Dogs of War list. If you want a Dogs of War list, it have no geographical shackles and would offer a creative freedom for the developers at CA, to make something actually worthy of the Dogs of War.
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0 · Disagree AgreeExcept that mercenary armies don't exist as solitary entities. They exist in the employ of others. In addition, mercenaries in different areas of the world would not be the same so the only ones that were explored are Tilea based armies while what armies in, let's say, Far East, Darklands, MoM, Naggaroth would look like was not. To make them anything else would require material that doesn't exist.
Horde style gameplay will never work. There were several chances to fix it, none worked.
The same way you claim that Tilean rulers aren't mercenary generals by default I note that mercenary captains aren't mercenary generals at all. They command their own mercenary bands not entire mercenary armies. They are inherently not meant to lead armies or factions. Therefore, you have yet to name a mercenary general you would make out as LLs that make sense and aren't Tileans.
Uff, yes, CA can be completely creative with an armybook that quite clearly relies on Tilea for its composition. Let ME put it like this, Dogs of War were never independent armies. They were bands of units hired by other factions of Warhammer OR they were mercenary armies under Tilea. That's all they ever were. So when you talk of what is worthy of DoW, they are worthy of being regiments for other armies or the core element of Southern Realms. Your generalized mercenary armies would literally require CA to build them up from almost nothing.
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1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeIt was a stopgap (there was a stopgap Wood Elves list in the same book) and obviously it got discontinued before a full army book was made, but the assumption that the Dogs of War would someday be a fully realised army book was there throughout 6E.
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1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeAs a reminder folks, from the Forum Terms & Conditions:
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0 · Disagree Agree