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Wood Elf Wishlist

tballs09tballs09 Registered Users Posts: 16
edited March 26 in Balancing Discussions
Tack this onto the plethora of posts asking for changes to WE. Do I think my drop in the bucket will sway CA? No, but it is cathartic. That being said, here are my most wanted changes to WE units in no particular order. Please feel free to add your own.
EDITING FOR SERIOUSNESS.


-Make flesh to stone overcast an AOE

-Reduce cost of Wild Riders by 100 for regular, 50 for shielded.

-Please make Durthu a mixed beast AND life caster. He's expensive as is for a vanilla beast spell book. (Yes I know he's expensive not for the spells but for being a BOSS but still)

-Give more hp to glade lords. They are laughably bad. If you're gonna give your lord 40 armor, at least 3,000 health is fair.


-Also, take off the duellist tag from glade lords. They can't duel literally anything else that also has the duellist tag. It's just embarrassing.


-Make treemen not garbage. I created an entire post based on this so I wont go into detail, but their attacks never hit. They dont synthesize at all and are one of the coolest units that never gets picked. Please add more WD and splash targets or make them more accurate. Also, some bound Awakening of the Wood wouldn't hurt.

-Please implement the sisters. please.

-Actually, before you implement the sisters, please make Drycha. That would be badass. Even cooler if she's a death/life caster. A cool combo.

-up the health pool or model count on eternal guard/dryads. I like their design; lower model count in exchange for beefy stats. However, this makes them disproportionately affected by artillery that doesn't give a damn about beefy stats. Eternal Guard losing 4 models per artillery strike is more detrimental than say, spearmen that get 90 or even 120 models.

-Make Hawk Riders Great Again! #MHRGA But seriously they are just not good. Or lower their cost to 800. If 800 is too drastic, I'll suffice by saying that Hawk Riders are in no way worth almost 1000 gold.

-Calculate Orion better in MP balance of power. Orion getting low on health should have less of an effect on army morale with Cloak of Isha. Many times I see Orion tank out 4 units while his army flees. If he stays, they stay. At least until he's actually at 5%. Orion at 25% is worth most lords at 50%.

Oof that was a lot thanks for making it this far. Sincerely, Mr. Balls, Wood Elf main.
Post edited by tballs09 on

Comments

  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,672
    edited March 26
    Only thing I agree with here is an MA buff for Treemen.

    EDIT: New lords/heroes/units/lores are always welcome but that isn't really related to balance.
    Post edited by OrkLads on
  • tballs09tballs09 Registered Users Posts: 16
    edited March 25
    OrkLads said:

    Only thing I agree with here is an MA buff for Treemen.


    Lol didn't even say MA, I said WD so it splits across more splash targets.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,415
    Big old nope for most of them.

    1)OC Flesh to stone impacts a lot more factions than just woodies. I agree it should be different than double duration, but giving it an AOE literally just makes it a glittering robe clone, big old nope, id much rather see something else like beefing up of resistances or something of that nature.
    2)Riders are perfectly fine for cost
    3)No - Durthu is already really good
    4+5)No - Glade Lords are really damn good
    6)The tag just denotes their low number of splash attacks, its functionally irrelevant.
    7)No
    8)Treemen aren't bad. A little more MA in exchange for some MD(as suggested by Lotus Moon at some point) would be more than adequate.
    9-10)Sure. I'd also like to see melee glade riders and hawk riders with spears, maybe Ariel and Araloth, such additions would probably actually help woodies a good bit in their weaker MU's.
    11)Dryads could maybe use a slight upward tweak in offensive stats, eternal guard are perfectly fine. Wood Elves struggle from lacking chaff, but overbuffing their line infantry isnt going to fix their trouble matchups.
    12)Glade Guard is fine as is. Main issue for them is the lack of WE chaff/throwaway units, and the general issue of protecting foot skirmishers being difficult. This isn't a problem unique to them though, empire and high elves and dark elves all dont run foot skirmishers in a lot of their MU's for the same reason.
    13)Hawk Riders are great.
    14)No dispute here really.
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,880
    Flesh to Stone should confer knockdown immunity. You'd see it more often if it did, guaranteed.

  • tballs09tballs09 Registered Users Posts: 16

    Flesh to Stone should confer knockdown immunity. You'd see it more often if it did, guaranteed.

    That wouldnt work well on SEM's though.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 5,592
    tballs09 said:


    -Make flesh to stone overcast an AOE

    would make blobs broken. Wild Riders, Wardancers biggest winners. Definitely no considering it has already a fairly long active time at 44s. Also we don't know how this would influence the non-WE factions.
    tballs09 said:


    -Reduce cost of Wild Riders by 100 for regular, 50 for shielded.

    I see no need for this. They already have some features of heavy cav while being light cav. They also have bonuses such as Forest Strider (cav fights in a forest can be common and decisive). Definitely not an underpowered cav when you consider their utility. I could maybe get behind a -25g for the regular, but more than that I don't think is deserved. Definitely not -100g that's madness.
    tballs09 said:


    -Give more hp to glade lords. They are laughably bad. If you're gonna give your lord 40 armor, at least 3,000 health is fair.

    Sure indeed after a quick consultation of TWstats, it seems they are 120 HP behind the "default HP value" of human lords.
    tballs09 said:


    -Give glade lords poison ranged attacks.

    You know that all archer characters from WE have homing arrows yeah? I don't see this as a good suggestion at all. For the same reason why I think it wouldn't be a good suggestion to have Poison on Alith Anar or Wulfhart.
    tballs09 said:


    -Give WE a light caster. Too cheesy with too many nets? Maybe, lets find out.

    the whole idea of Prey of Anath Raema is that you commit to picking a Glady. It's not about having nets or not, but also how they limit you in the rest of the army building. Here specifically you have to pick a melee lord so you need to spend more in a character you might not want. Also, this game needs less nets, not more. I see no strong need for WE to have additional nets right now and I think also it would break them (especially in QB where you could chain 2 nets in a row but not only). In any case, I do think WE deserve more spells. Maybe lore of Heavens and Death could be added without unbalancing too many (if any) WE matchups.
    tballs09 said:


    -Actually, before you implement the sisters, please make Drycha. That would be badass. Even cooler if she's a death/life caster. A cool combo.

    Ok so the whole idea of your last 2-3 remarks is that WE need more content. I agree on that. But I am not sure how high it is on the priority list for CA. I don't think it's impossible but I would classify it as "low priority". Probably you'll have to wait game 3.
    tballs09 said:


    -up the health pool or model count on eternal guard/dryads. I like their design; lower model count in exchange for beefy stats. However, this makes them disproportionately affected by artillery that doesn't give a damn about beefy stats. Eternal Guard losing 4 models per artillery strike is more detrimental than say, spearmen that get 90 or even 120 models.

    That's Elves for you: low HP count and low model count. If you want big units, WE are not for you. I think Eternal Guards are balanced. They are expensive BUT unlike every other spear in the game they have AP majority. This means that an engagement such as Demis + Emp Spearmen vs Wild Riders + Eternal Guard will probably be won by the WE where if you replaced the WE Spears with any other faction in the game the Demis + Spearmen would win. Just an example. You underestimate AP.

    About Dryads, their loose formation makes it ineffective to shoot artillery at them. They are indeed very very slightly below average but playable in rush builds. I don't think Elves should have the best melee infantry since that's the exclusive of less versatile factions such as Chaos or Norsca. Elves typically have good missiles. Melee units are used as support and not as the main unit that wins the game.
    tballs09 said:


    -Would giving glade guard 360 shooting ability be too cheesy? Maybe, but i'll include it here.

    yep definitely. I don't think the devs will consider this suggestion for a moment you're essentially asking for 650g Waywatchers (without Stalk, granted).
    tballs09 said:


    -Make glade guard have 69 models instead of 60 cause nice.

    if you check, their missile damage per arrow is already slightly higher than most other archers in the game to compensate for the fact that they have 8 less models than other "generic" archer units.
    tballs09 said:


    -Make Hawk Riders Great Again! #MHRGA But seriously they are just not good. Or lower their cost to 800.

    this is kinda madness. I don't think you will have much support on this. The only thing that makes Hawk Riders hard to use is that they have a delay before firing after you order them to. Other than that, they are a good unit and for sure don't deserve a -150g cost drop. In fact I don't think they need a cost drop at all.
    tballs09 said:


    -Calculate Orion better in MP balance of power. Orion getting low on health should have less of an effect on army morale with Cloak of Isha. Many times I see Orion tank out 4 units while his army flees. If he stays, they stay. At least until he's actually at 5%.

    Balance of power doesn't affect morale of your troops until army losses hit. If Orion gets low, and you get hit by army losses, this is an intended mechanic just like EVERY other expensive unit causes army losses when it drops to low HP if you suffered enough damage in the rest of the army. Overall not sure what you expect here to happen exactly.


    Overall after reading your post it seems to me you are a relatively new player, I suggest talking to people in the Tournament Discord (someone can provide a link if you're interested) and watching Youtube videos (Turin, Dahv etc.) to see how WE are played. They are definitely not a weak faction but one of the harder ones to play. Definitely the buffs you ask for are out of line and I think have 0% chance to be listened to and implemented.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,628
    This is just madness.

    I mean 360 glade guards. Enough said really
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 8,332
    Yep gotta disagree with Big Majority of them, if i had to make proper balance suggestion for WE's it be

    Glade lords (make their banners useful or just reduce gold).
    Waystalker - fix his item
    Dryads - +HP or +MD but minor
    Hawk riders - +5LD or cause Fear
    Add Melee Glade Riders and Hawk Riders
    Adjust Treemen - less MD more MA and/or give 1 around himself only awakening of the woods.
    Wild Riders - Slight Stat buff, personally i think +5 LD is the way to go, they only have 70 and +5 would help their frenzy last longer and would be a buff in general, considering they got ItP i think thats quite a nice yet balanced buff.
    Treekin Still need more MA maybe at expense of MD
    Orion Item Rework and +Speed

    Add Sisters of Twilight :)


    My list has a lot of minor buffs but i think it makes a lot of sense for most part.
  • tballs09tballs09 Registered Users Posts: 16
    Overall after reading your post it seems to me you are a relatively new player, I suggest talking to people in the Tournament Discord (someone can provide a link if you're interested) and watching Youtube videos (Turin, Dahv etc.) to see how WE are played. They are definitely not a weak faction but one of the harder ones to play. Definitely the buffs you ask for are out of line and I think have 0% chance to be listened to and implemented.

    I'm in the top 200 bro. Not the best, far from the worst. Some of these ideas are meant to be jokes, like 360 glade guard and extra nets from light caster. The rest have merit I assure you.

  • tballs09tballs09 Registered Users Posts: 16
    edited March 26
    Also having glade guard have 69 models is literally just a 69 joke and you completely missed it. "cause nice." dont take everything too seriously.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 446
    edited March 26
    Probably best not to put joke suggestions mixed with the serious ones if you want your proposals to gain actual traction.
  • tballs09tballs09 Registered Users Posts: 16
    Edited for serious proposals only.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,536

    Yep gotta disagree with Big Majority of them, if i had to make proper balance suggestion for WE's it be

    Glade lords (make their banners useful or just reduce gold).
    Waystalker - fix his item
    Dryads - +HP or +MD but minor
    Hawk riders - +5LD or cause Fear
    Add Melee Glade Riders and Hawk Riders
    Adjust Treemen - less MD more MA and/or give 1 around himself only awakening of the woods.
    Wild Riders - Slight Stat buff, personally i think +5 LD is the way to go, they only have 70 and +5 would help their frenzy last longer and would be a buff in general, considering they got ItP i think thats quite a nice yet balanced buff.
    Treekin Still need more MA maybe at expense of MD
    Orion Item Rework and +Speed

    Add Sisters of Twilight :)


    My list has a lot of minor buffs but i think it makes a lot of sense for most part.

    yep pretty much this, also glade lords AP (melee) should be adjusted to match high/dark elf lords. They have some of the worst AP values in the game, even lower than some casters (teclis, fay)
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,383
    Hawk riders definitely dont need buff
    While not the best in range their melee ap and cb very much make up for it
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,536

    Hawk riders definitely dont need buff
    While not the best in range their melee ap and cb very much make up for it

    All hawk riders need is to cause fear, right now they have quite low leadership and can be routed super easily in air fights and of course on the ground. Giving them fear would help them not rout to a pair of fellbats and would help help in their rear charging ability, which is the only thing they arent terrible at. Even terradons cause fear
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,383
    edited March 26
    Loupi_ said:

    Hawk riders definitely dont need buff
    While not the best in range their melee ap and cb very much make up for it

    All hawk riders need is to cause fear, right now they have quite low leadership and can be routed super easily in air fights and of course on the ground. Giving them fear would help them not rout to a pair of fellbats and would help help in their rear charging ability, which is the only thing they arent terrible at. Even terradons cause fear
    They arent suppose to fight in melee unless they want to. They are 110 speed iirc, and are air range units. They have one of the best "initiative" to choose when to fight.

    That said, I do wish there is a melee version to support them,
    I wouldnt mind fear, +25 gold for for it

  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,536
    edited March 26

    Loupi_ said:

    Hawk riders definitely dont need buff
    While not the best in range their melee ap and cb very much make up for it

    All hawk riders need is to cause fear, right now they have quite low leadership and can be routed super easily in air fights and of course on the ground. Giving them fear would help them not rout to a pair of fellbats and would help help in their rear charging ability, which is the only thing they arent terrible at. Even terradons cause fear
    They arent suppose to fight in melee unless they want to. They are 110 speed iirc, and are air range units. They have one of the best "initiative" to choose when to fight.

    That said, I do wish there is a melee version to support them,
    I wouldnt mind fear, +25 gold for for it

    they are mostly a melee unit, compare their total ranged damage potential to other flying missile units and you'll see. In fact they arent even a melee unit, since they lose to pretty much any other unit if they dont get a clean charge. They are a rear charge unit with a secondary range attack.
  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Registered Users Posts: 765
    Loupi_ said:

    Loupi_ said:

    Hawk riders definitely dont need buff
    While not the best in range their melee ap and cb very much make up for it

    All hawk riders need is to cause fear, right now they have quite low leadership and can be routed super easily in air fights and of course on the ground. Giving them fear would help them not rout to a pair of fellbats and would help help in their rear charging ability, which is the only thing they arent terrible at. Even terradons cause fear
    They arent suppose to fight in melee unless they want to. They are 110 speed iirc, and are air range units. They have one of the best "initiative" to choose when to fight.

    That said, I do wish there is a melee version to support them,
    I wouldnt mind fear, +25 gold for for it

    they are mostly a melee unit, compare their total ranged damage potential to other flying missile units and you'll see. In fact they arent even a melee unit, since they lose to pretty much any other unit if they dont get a clean charge. They are a rear charge unit with a secondary range attack.
    First number is effective ammo, second is effective ammo vs 100 armour:

    Hawk riders 10692 5049
    Deck droppers 10800 4320
    Deck droppers (handguns) 14256 11097
    Raven heralds 16128 13536

    Furthermore hawk riders are the most expensive of these units, so have much less ammo per gold.

    While they certainly are more melee orientated than their peers, I would still say they are primarily a missile unit, just as say seaguard are primarily a missile unit even if they are less specialised for this than their peers.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 2,387
    My wishlist is pretty much the same it has always been:


    - Make treekin useful. They are laughably bad. It's not a stats problem is a design problem. Proof? Treemen are finally semi useful with AP attacks.


    - Give dryads a better ap ratio: in a game were armour has definetely become less importat due to higher AP ratios, they are still hard countered by anything with a bit of armor due to their pathetic ap ratio.

    - Rework Orion: currently its a "can do everything, but nothing well" type of lord. Mostly because it pays a lot for a useless ranged attack and some useless "spells".

    - Sisters of freaking twilight and freaking ARIEL.

    - More lores of magic.

    - Some of the regiments of renown are still completely useless and terribly overpriced. On the other hand, others are still a bit too good.

  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,182
    Hawk riders are amazing when used properly, like for harassing with their missiles and then rear charging armored units in melee. I like them a lot against chaos, and in other matchups they can be made to work. Dropping their cost by 100 would make them OP for sure.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,362
    Hawk Riders are fine. They could be made toxic if buffed too much. I'd rather they stayed niche.

    Wild Riders could use +5 LD.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,628
    They probably could, +5 ld on wild actuallys not bad
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  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 2,387
    Otherss that I forgot:

    - Increase mass of Wild Riders by 100.

    - Give the WE prince a shield and an asrai spear instead of a bow.


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