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Why noone talks about Wood Elves?

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  • SeanJeanquoi#3490SeanJeanquoi#3490 Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    Reghis said:

    WE need a full rework

    1. Amber rework
    2. World root system (Maybe in order to expand the world root you need amber)
    3. outposts rework (like Arne said make them like pirate coves or skaven undercities)
    4. get rid of the awful office system (generals should join the wild hunt and get different boni)
    5. More LL (Araloth, Ariel, Twilight Sisters are the top picks + maybe Drycha or Skaw as LH)

    So quite a lot of work

    That's not all that specific.

    Ever played Endless Space 2? there is a faction in it called "The Unfallen", a species of trees and they expand by extending their world roots into adjacent regions.

    Personally I think the Wood Elves should follow in these footsteps. Get rid of their outposts completely and don't make them occupy normal territory at all. Instead, have them expand the Oak of Ages into adjacent regions from turn 1 (this would work like the construction of a building).

    Once the expansion into a region is complete, that region visually changes to look like a WE region (when the WE capture a region it becomes alot more forested and the trees change) though they aren't yet in control of the region.

    CA should create a new type of hidden settlement that can be established similar to Pirate Coves, however they actually exist on the map seperate to normal settlements and armies can garrison and thus hide within them.

    WE's can make these hidden groves anywhere, but they cannot be built up into larger bases until the Wood Elves extend the Worldroots to the same region.

    Once the Worldroots have extended and you have an outpost there that's properly built up, it'd be really cool if you could then destroy the normal settlement in that region by attacking it and once its destroyed it becomes "overgrown" which locks it from colonisation until someone finds and destroys your outpost in the region.

    This could be optional and a great way to make WE expansion alot more survivable since no one can just waltz in, take out your outpost and be all good.

    Aside from that main change, amber should be removed and you should be able to create teleport points via the world roots in certain locations so you can easily dart between your lands (part of the victory conditions should be to re-connect Avelorn and Lorelorn with Athel Loren and you should be able to revive old dead forests like in Naggaroth.
  • SeanJeanquoi#3490SeanJeanquoi#3490 Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    By creating this new hidden settlement type, the Wood Elves would finally be able to act how they're supposed to: wandering the world through the woods and wildlands away from the eyes of civilization, yet always present close by, watching and waiting.

    Also think the Wood Elves shouldn't take diplomatic penalties from moving through other people's lands because this is a part of what they do and normally they wouldn't be spotted, so how would the owners know?

    These hidden settlements would also work great for Greenskins and Vampire Counts. Greenskins have the Black Pit and other little hidden enclaves all over the place, while the Vampire Counts have barrows and crypts they could secretly take up residence in (as well as creating secret lairs hidden by magic within the Drakwald Forest)

    Also, If CA makes the Greenskins semi-nomadic (like they should be) then giving them the ability to settle normally, roam as nomads, AND create secret bases would play into their "jack of all Trades" playstyle and really emphasize what a scourge on the world they are. How hard they are to get rid of.

  • Neodeinos#5871Neodeinos#5871 Registered Users Posts: 16,076
    I'd like to have some sort of corruption with them, it'd slowly turn a region into a forest and once you reach a certain amount of corruption you could turn your outpost into a regular settlement with new buildings. Haven't put too much thought about it but I really love the idea of having a corruption with the WE.
  • Sir_Godspeed#8395Sir_Godspeed#8395 Registered Users Posts: 3,641

    @ArneSo @Mogwai_Man @Sir_Godspeed

    When people say "Broken" to describe the Wood Elves they don't mean it literally. They mean that they are so outdated that they aren't a faction anybody really plays (and when people do, its in spite of their terrible campaign and tiny roster)

    You might say this is an incorrect use of the term, but the reason is that saying they're 'outdated' is not strong enough language and doesn't let you know that they are a faction that most of us avoid, even if we want to play them, because they're so bad.

    This is also how I've felt about the Greenskins for a year or more. They're just too outdated for me to play them in their current state. In fact, Greenskins, Beastmen, Chaos, Wood Elves, Bretonnia, at least 1/4th of the games Races feel like they're in early access which is a shame. You can't convey that kinda frustration by simply saying 'they're a little outdated'.

    And btw, Nakai is just as bad. His vassal is a train wreck and it literally feels like CA pushed out a playtest beta for Hore faction improvements and sold it to us (Again, something that you can't describe by merely saying 'its outdated).

    I'm sorry, but I'm just sick and tired of adult men becoming whiny thirteen year olds on this forum and charging headlong into every thread with exaggerations. It's the same with the people whining about a race being "unplayable" because it lacks armor piercing, or people screeching over the game being dead because some CA hired hand hasn't tweeted in a while or whatever, or when they howl about "reskins" whenever there's a DLC.

    It always comes down to "I don't like how it's done."

    Just say it like it is, stop dragging in terms you don't understand to look dramatic. It's embarassing.
  • Reeks#2417Reeks#2417 Registered Users Posts: 10,363
    The WE roster works very well, not all factions/races NEED to have the same amount of content to play great.



    Nurgle is love

    Nurgle is life

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  • Bonutz#3949Bonutz#3949 Registered Users Posts: 5,763
    I’ve never cared too much for the Wood Elves personally. I like their army roster but their campaign is pretty bad. Until that gets fixed, I won’t be giving them a go anytime soon.
    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I’m all out of bubblegum.
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414
    Amber is irritating, I really don't think there's much debate on this solitary point.

    It's not a broken faction though. You don't need to paint the map. You don't need allies You don't even need amber. You don't really need to do anything besides sack and raze to your hearts content.

    Does it help to have allies? Yes it does. Is it advantageous to paint the map and accrue stupid stacking bonuses that make your armies invincible? Yes it is.

    Can you take either of these avenues in multiplayer? Why yes, you can!

    It's childs play to wipe the floor with Bretonnia, use it to build up a huge pile of cash, and then fund a dozen armies expanding out through the Old World. Multiplayer or not.

    It's also childs play to make friends with Bretonnia, use it to build up amber, and fund dozens of armies expanding out through the Old World. You can do it with Empire too, or both, or you can make buddy buddy with Dwarfs. You can even say **** all and make allies out of High Elves while you raze the world around you.

    We all want the Amber mechanic to change, but it's literally no contest. The people who can't rapidly expand with the faction, just aren't aggressive enough.

    Wood Elves only have around 12 units total! With their complete roster (including generic heroes and lords) coming up to 18...as opposed to the 30-40 which is standard for every other faction (even Vampire Coast).

    Wood Elves and Beastmen have 18, Bretonnia has 24. Things will only worsen for them until they're updated.

    Dude, crack is bad for you.

    NOT counting unshielded variants, and relatively superfluous non upgraded Glade Guard and Glade Riders, you come to 18 units, without including any characters at all. Where the hell are you getting 12? Their total, including caster variants, is 30.

    Even if you excluded amber costing units, you still wouldn't get 12. Even Skaven barely crack 40, including all the non poison and unshielded variants, and different character types including caster sphere variants. 30 to, I think, 42, for a faction with a substantial roster count advantage.

    They're only five short of High Elves at 35, and that's a roster padded with five spheres of magic, three dragons, unarmored Archers, unshielded Sea Guard and Silverhelms, and the Alith Anar exclusive Shadow Walkers.
  • lucibuis#6195lucibuis#6195 Registered Users Posts: 7,168
    edited April 2020
    psychoak said:

    Amber is irritating, I really don't think there's much debate on this solitary point.

    It's not a broken faction though. You don't need to paint the map. You don't need allies You don't even need amber. You don't really need to do anything besides sack and raze to your hearts content.

    Does it help to have allies? Yes it does. Is it advantageous to paint the map and accrue stupid stacking bonuses that make your armies invincible? Yes it is.

    Can you take either of these avenues in multiplayer? Why yes, you can!

    It's childs play to wipe the floor with Bretonnia, use it to build up a huge pile of cash, and then fund a dozen armies expanding out through the Old World. Multiplayer or not.

    It's also childs play to make friends with Bretonnia, use it to build up amber, and fund dozens of armies expanding out through the Old World. You can do it with Empire too, or both, or you can make buddy buddy with Dwarfs. You can even say **** all and make allies out of High Elves while you raze the world around you.

    We all want the Amber mechanic to change, but it's literally no contest. The people who can't rapidly expand with the faction, just aren't aggressive enough.

    Wood Elves only have around 12 units total! With their complete roster (including generic heroes and lords) coming up to 18...as opposed to the 30-40 which is standard for every other faction (even Vampire Coast).

    Wood Elves and Beastmen have 18, Bretonnia has 24. Things will only worsen for them until they're updated.

    Dude, crack is bad for you.

    NOT counting unshielded variants, and relatively superfluous non upgraded Glade Guard and Glade Riders, you come to 18 units, without including any characters at all. Where the hell are you getting 12? Their total, including caster variants, is 30.

    Even if you excluded amber costing units, you still wouldn't get 12. Even Skaven barely crack 40, including all the non poison and unshielded variants, and different character types including caster sphere variants. 30 to, I think, 42, for a faction with a substantial roster count advantage.

    They're only five short of High Elves at 35, and that's a roster padded with five spheres of magic, three dragons, unarmored Archers, unshielded Sea Guard and Silverhelms, and the Alith Anar exclusive Shadow Walkers.
    I think he wasn’t counting lords.

    Eternal guards
    Wardancers
    Wildwood rangers

    Dryads
    Treekin
    Treeman

    Glade guards
    Deep wood scouts
    Waywatchers

    Glade riders
    Wild riders

    Eagles
    Hawk riders
    Dragon

    14 units. The lowest of all.

    Because of amber restrictions, in most campaigns players use about half of those
    Ariel only, no fads allowed.

  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414
    That's not any kind of a practical unit count. You're not even differentiating between the two types of Wardancers, and you still didn't get down to 12.
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,729
    As to the roster, they have their full TT roster.
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  • Mogwai_Man#4978Mogwai_Man#4978 Registered Users Posts: 6,096
    edited April 2020
    Wood Elves don't need anymore units. They have their roster already, the only thing to flesh out is heroes and legendary lords.
  • Draxynnic#3149Draxynnic#3149 Registered Users Posts: 11,434
    edited April 2020

    And btw, Nakai is just as bad. His vassal is a train wreck and it literally feels like CA pushed out a playtest beta for Hore faction improvements and sold it to us (Again, something that you can't describe by merely saying 'its outdated).

    The main problem with Nakai seems to be that vassal diplomacy has been under-the-radar broken for yonks, and then CA made a faction that is forced to rely on a vassal.

    lucibuis said:

    psychoak said:

    Amber is irritating, I really don't think there's much debate on this solitary point.

    It's not a broken faction though. You don't need to paint the map. You don't need allies You don't even need amber. You don't really need to do anything besides sack and raze to your hearts content.

    Does it help to have allies? Yes it does. Is it advantageous to paint the map and accrue stupid stacking bonuses that make your armies invincible? Yes it is.

    Can you take either of these avenues in multiplayer? Why yes, you can!

    It's childs play to wipe the floor with Bretonnia, use it to build up a huge pile of cash, and then fund a dozen armies expanding out through the Old World. Multiplayer or not.

    It's also childs play to make friends with Bretonnia, use it to build up amber, and fund dozens of armies expanding out through the Old World. You can do it with Empire too, or both, or you can make buddy buddy with Dwarfs. You can even say **** all and make allies out of High Elves while you raze the world around you.

    We all want the Amber mechanic to change, but it's literally no contest. The people who can't rapidly expand with the faction, just aren't aggressive enough.

    Wood Elves only have around 12 units total! With their complete roster (including generic heroes and lords) coming up to 18...as opposed to the 30-40 which is standard for every other faction (even Vampire Coast).

    Wood Elves and Beastmen have 18, Bretonnia has 24. Things will only worsen for them until they're updated.

    Dude, crack is bad for you.

    NOT counting unshielded variants, and relatively superfluous non upgraded Glade Guard and Glade Riders, you come to 18 units, without including any characters at all. Where the hell are you getting 12? Their total, including caster variants, is 30.

    Even if you excluded amber costing units, you still wouldn't get 12. Even Skaven barely crack 40, including all the non poison and unshielded variants, and different character types including caster sphere variants. 30 to, I think, 42, for a faction with a substantial roster count advantage.

    They're only five short of High Elves at 35, and that's a roster padded with five spheres of magic, three dragons, unarmored Archers, unshielded Sea Guard and Silverhelms, and the Alith Anar exclusive Shadow Walkers.
    I think he wasn’t counting lords.

    Eternal guards
    Wardancers
    Wildwood rangers

    Dryads
    Treekin
    Treeman

    Glade guards
    Deep wood scouts
    Waywatchers

    Glade riders
    Wild riders

    Eagles
    Hawk riders
    Dragon

    14 units. The lowest of all.

    Because of amber restrictions, in most campaigns players use about half of those
    A lot of races would have much smaller numbers* if not padded out with variations.

    Wood Elves probably do it more than most, but some of the variants you've brushed over are probably a lot more significant than the shield/no shield variants that a lot of races get (Glade Guard with Starfire Shafts are practically budget Sisters of Avelorn, for instance). I note that you've broadbrushed Wardancer weapon variants together... should we also broadbrush all Bretonnian men-at-arms of Empire State Troops together because they're basically the same unit with different weapons? Equipping Wardancers with an Asrai spear is a substantial shift from being a unit focused towards fighting unarmoured infantry (doesn't actually have anti-infantry, but compared to the rest of the WE list, that's what you'd use it for, similar to how you don't use Bleakswords against infantry if you have Dreadspears) to one that is oriented towards fighting armoured large units.

    Ignore weapon variants, for instance, and you get the following for Beastmen:

    Ungors
    Gors
    Bestigors

    Ungor Raiders

    Centigors

    Centigors (Throwing Axes)

    Razorgor Chariot

    Chaos Spawn
    Minotaurs

    Warhounds
    Razorgors
    Harpies
    Giant

    Cygor

    There's the same 14 units... and I'm not sure that I should be considering Centigors with Throwing Axes as a separate unit.

    Now, Wood Elves are still a fairly tight list, as they were on the tabletop, but ignoring all unit variants creates some skewed results. It's probably reasonable to ignore things like shielded and unshielded variants, and possibly even poison or no poison variants, but variants that substantially changes a unit's role (such as going from a non-AP primary weapon to an AP primary weapon) really should be included. With this sort of analysis, too, I'd question whether it's fair to count units where one is a strict upgrade of the other as separate units even if they have different names.

    *EDIT: To clarify, by this, I mean much smaller numbers than they have on paper, not much smaller than the Wood Elves. Although if you take some races and lump variations together as one unit, you certainly would get below what the Wood Elves have if you count variations, as shown with the Beastmen example.
    Post edited by Draxynnic#3149 on
  • RockNRolla92#9743RockNRolla92#9743 Registered Users Posts: 2,294
    lucibuis said:

    psychoak said:

    Amber is irritating, I really don't think there's much debate on this solitary point.

    It's not a broken faction though. You don't need to paint the map. You don't need allies You don't even need amber. You don't really need to do anything besides sack and raze to your hearts content.

    Does it help to have allies? Yes it does. Is it advantageous to paint the map and accrue stupid stacking bonuses that make your armies invincible? Yes it is.

    Can you take either of these avenues in multiplayer? Why yes, you can!

    It's childs play to wipe the floor with Bretonnia, use it to build up a huge pile of cash, and then fund a dozen armies expanding out through the Old World. Multiplayer or not.

    It's also childs play to make friends with Bretonnia, use it to build up amber, and fund dozens of armies expanding out through the Old World. You can do it with Empire too, or both, or you can make buddy buddy with Dwarfs. You can even say **** all and make allies out of High Elves while you raze the world around you.

    We all want the Amber mechanic to change, but it's literally no contest. The people who can't rapidly expand with the faction, just aren't aggressive enough.

    Wood Elves only have around 12 units total! With their complete roster (including generic heroes and lords) coming up to 18...as opposed to the 30-40 which is standard for every other faction (even Vampire Coast).

    Wood Elves and Beastmen have 18, Bretonnia has 24. Things will only worsen for them until they're updated.

    Dude, crack is bad for you.

    NOT counting unshielded variants, and relatively superfluous non upgraded Glade Guard and Glade Riders, you come to 18 units, without including any characters at all. Where the hell are you getting 12? Their total, including caster variants, is 30.

    Even if you excluded amber costing units, you still wouldn't get 12. Even Skaven barely crack 40, including all the non poison and unshielded variants, and different character types including caster sphere variants. 30 to, I think, 42, for a faction with a substantial roster count advantage.

    They're only five short of High Elves at 35, and that's a roster padded with five spheres of magic, three dragons, unarmored Archers, unshielded Sea Guard and Silverhelms, and the Alith Anar exclusive Shadow Walkers.
    I think he wasn’t counting lords.

    Eternal guards
    Wardancers
    Wildwood rangers

    Dryads
    Treekin
    Treeman

    Glade guards
    Deep wood scouts
    Waywatchers

    Glade riders
    Wild riders

    Eagles
    Hawk riders
    Dragon

    14 units. The lowest of all.

    Because of amber restrictions, in most campaigns players use about half of those
    You missed sisters of the thorn, they aren't a unit varient.
  • Lin_HuichiLin_Huichi Registered Users Posts: 483
    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    Basically everyone agrees they're broken but at the same time they aren't actually missing that much from their official roster. They never got that much attention so no one can shout from the rooftops that they want x or y unit because they don't exist. CA will have to make them up.

    This is the same problem Bretonnia has.

    They're not really broken, just limited and lackluster, campaign-wise.
    Their mechanics are absolutely broken. They were fun back in the day but right now they are unplayable.

    Outposts need to work like pirate coves. WE are an isolationistic race and no map painters that conquer Bretonnian Castles to live in towers made of stone.

    Their whole campaign is pointless and lorebreaking right now.

    WE living in Dwarf Karaks or Empire Giant Cities? No thank you...
    That isn't broken though. The campaign design always sucked and it's outdated since it's so old but the army plays well.
    - To recruit units, research tech and to upgrade the Oak you need Amber

    - you get all your Amber from conquering Settlements which are just weak outposts

    - you loose Amber if you loose outposts

    - so you have to babysit your outposts all the time.

    - what Leads to a super defensive campaign where you just run between your little outposts to defend them.

    - that makes Amber a very very unreliable resource that is more annoying than actually enjoyable.


    That is what I would call a broken campaign.

    CA already said they don’t like how Amber work so they will obviously fix it one day.
    Turning outposts into secrets hideouts (like they should be) similar to pirate coves would solve the problem.
    You wouldn’t have to protect your baby outposts anymore and also not lose Amber all the time what completely destroys your economy.

    Instead you could travel around the world and go on wild hunts everywhere from Naggaroth to Lustria to have a good time.
    That’s how WE should be and not like they are right now.
    Lol is this how people play Wood Elves? No wonder people complain about them.

    I have completed several Wood Elf campaigns and they remain my second favourite faction. Sometimes I go to Ulthuan to fight the High elves and take the Sword of Khaine, sometimes I stay home and fight Bretonnia, sometimes I go to the Badlands and fight Greenskins. You can go anywhere you want easily.

    Their economy relies on raiding and razing settlements. Outposts dont generate much except ports and the port tech. At first you may struggle to protect them but there is no need, early priority should be making as much money as possible, not gaining Amber. For Durthu, smashing through Parravon and Bretonnia is standard, for Orion cutting south for Mirangliano, Sartosa and Skavenblight is really good since all three have full stack garrison, give thousands in gold and 2 Amber each.

    Wood elves are far from unplayable, in fact I like the variance they have at the moment. Do you help the order races so you can get Amber later as allies? Or do you raid and raze them to bits for money then invade later with 5 stacks for rapid conquest?

    Problem is you cannot win by being truly isolationist.
  • Blacksphemy#9850Blacksphemy#9850 Registered Users Posts: 642

    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    Basically everyone agrees they're broken but at the same time they aren't actually missing that much from their official roster. They never got that much attention so no one can shout from the rooftops that they want x or y unit because they don't exist. CA will have to make them up.

    This is the same problem Bretonnia has.

    They're not really broken, just limited and lackluster, campaign-wise.
    Their mechanics are absolutely broken. They were fun back in the day but right now they are unplayable.

    Outposts need to work like pirate coves. WE are an isolationistic race and no map painters that conquer Bretonnian Castles to live in towers made of stone.

    Their whole campaign is pointless and lorebreaking right now.

    WE living in Dwarf Karaks or Empire Giant Cities? No thank you...
    That isn't broken though. The campaign design always sucked and it's outdated since it's so old but the army plays well.
    - To recruit units, research tech and to upgrade the Oak you need Amber

    - you get all your Amber from conquering Settlements which are just weak outposts

    - you loose Amber if you loose outposts

    - so you have to babysit your outposts all the time.

    - what Leads to a super defensive campaign where you just run between your little outposts to defend them.

    - that makes Amber a very very unreliable resource that is more annoying than actually enjoyable.


    That is what I would call a broken campaign.

    CA already said they don’t like how Amber work so they will obviously fix it one day.
    Turning outposts into secrets hideouts (like they should be) similar to pirate coves would solve the problem.
    You wouldn’t have to protect your baby outposts anymore and also not lose Amber all the time what completely destroys your economy.

    Instead you could travel around the world and go on wild hunts everywhere from Naggaroth to Lustria to have a good time.
    That’s how WE should be and not like they are right now.
    Lol is this how people play Wood Elves? No wonder people complain about them.

    I have completed several Wood Elf campaigns and they remain my second favourite faction. Sometimes I go to Ulthuan to fight the High elves and take the Sword of Khaine, sometimes I stay home and fight Bretonnia, sometimes I go to the Badlands and fight Greenskins. You can go anywhere you want easily.

    Their economy relies on raiding and razing settlements. Outposts dont generate much except ports and the port tech. At first you may struggle to protect them but there is no need, early priority should be making as much money as possible, not gaining Amber. For Durthu, smashing through Parravon and Bretonnia is standard, for Orion cutting south for Mirangliano, Sartosa and Skavenblight is really good since all three have full stack garrison, give thousands in gold and 2 Amber each.

    Wood elves are far from unplayable, in fact I like the variance they have at the moment. Do you help the order races so you can get Amber later as allies? Or do you raid and raze them to bits for money then invade later with 5 stacks for rapid conquest?

    Problem is you cannot win by being truly isolationist.
    Pretty much everything this guy said. My first playthrough with them was 2 months ago and on H/normal they thrashed everything from naggarond to kislev. Armies of basic archers and basic spearman were wiping the floor with everyone else well through mid game and making me endless gold from razing. Any new unit will add only to flavor, they have all the tools they need to stomp any other faction no matter the doomstack
  • Djau#5149Djau#5149 Registered Users Posts: 12,170
    Reeks said:

    The WE roster works very well, not all factions/races NEED to have the same amount of content to play great.

    All factions need at least 4 Legendary Lords minimum and two Generic Lords minimum.

  • Guillermidas#6283Guillermidas#6283 MadridRegistered Users Posts: 536
    Reeks said:

    The WE roster works very well, not all factions/races NEED to have the same amount of content to play great.

    As I stated in my comment at the very beginning, and many others afterwards, the rosters is perfectly fine, with almost if not all units already ingame. What it lacks is new start positiong and Legendary Lord.

    And probably, new campaign mechanics. I've read so far pretty great suggestions here.

    A pure magic user Generic lord would be nice too, and so does the High Elves. After all, they are friking elves.
    "It's small, filthy and noisy. H! Just like a dwarf!"
  • Draxynnic#3149Draxynnic#3149 Registered Users Posts: 11,434

    Reeks said:

    The WE roster works very well, not all factions/races NEED to have the same amount of content to play great.

    As I stated in my comment at the very beginning, and many others afterwards, the rosters is perfectly fine, with almost if not all units already ingame. What it lacks is new start positiong and Legendary Lord.

    And probably, new campaign mechanics. I've read so far pretty great suggestions here.

    A pure magic user Generic lord would be nice too, and so does the High Elves. After all, they are friking elves.
    There are some people who think there are roster gaps. I'm ambivalent. It is worth noting that as of last month, Wood Elves were regarded as being pretty low in the tier rankings, with the explanation being that they'd dropped so far basically because people figured out their skirmishing archers were very vulnerable to being run down by heavy cavalry and other fast melee units. Given that Wood Elves have a lot of armour-piercing anti-large options, though, that might not be something they need extra units to fix, just improvements to their existing units.

    Generic Spellweavers, and extra lores for them (on tabletop, High and Dark Magic was only available to Spellweavers) would definitely be an appropriate addition, but can probably be done as FLC.
  • Guillermidas#6283Guillermidas#6283 MadridRegistered Users Posts: 536
    edited April 2020
    Generic Spellweavers, and extra lores for them (on tabletop, High and Dark Magic was only available to Spellweavers) would definitely be an appropriate addition, but can probably be done as FLC.

    Exactly what I think. In addition to what I said, a spellweaver, extra lores just and maybe a new Wardancer hero too. But their unit kit is quite excellent if you ask me, and some change to stats to units like Hawk riders, Great eagles or whatever need helps is fine enough. FLC for DLC owners I guess? I don't know CA policy about that.
    "It's small, filthy and noisy. H! Just like a dwarf!"
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Draxynnic said:

    Reeks said:

    The WE roster works very well, not all factions/races NEED to have the same amount of content to play great.

    As I stated in my comment at the very beginning, and many others afterwards, the rosters is perfectly fine, with almost if not all units already ingame. What it lacks is new start positiong and Legendary Lord.

    And probably, new campaign mechanics. I've read so far pretty great suggestions here.

    A pure magic user Generic lord would be nice too, and so does the High Elves. After all, they are friking elves.
    There are some people who think there are roster gaps. I'm ambivalent. It is worth noting that as of last month, Wood Elves were regarded as being pretty low in the tier rankings, with the explanation being that they'd dropped so far basically because people figured out their skirmishing archers were very vulnerable to being run down by heavy cavalry and other fast melee units. Given that Wood Elves have a lot of armour-piercing anti-large options, though, that might not be something they need extra units to fix, just improvements to their existing units.

    Generic Spellweavers, and extra lores for them (on tabletop, High and Dark Magic was only available to Spellweavers) would definitely be an appropriate addition, but can probably be done as FLC.
    People didn't find that out only recently. It would also be utterly infuriating if they had an easy time of safekeeping their skirmishers since they have about some of the strongest in the game and Waywatchers are one of the best units in the game period.

    No, the real issue is that WE require a lot of micro to be played effectively and that's something the average TW player won't have simply because TW is usually more laidback when it comes to this. If people want to just pelt the enemy with massive firepower from afar in a static line, Dwarfs, Empire or Skaven are better picks.

    WE are under no circumstances a low-tier faction. They're a high skill-ceiling faction.
  • Draxynnic#3149Draxynnic#3149 Registered Users Posts: 11,434
    The last tier list I saw, which consulted with top MP players, disagrees with you. Wood Elves were placed just above rock bottom (Bretonnia).
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited April 2020
    Draxynnic said:

    The last tier list I saw, which consulted with top MP players, disagrees with you. Wood Elves were placed just above rock bottom (Bretonnia).

    Play some MP instead of trusting uncritically what some YTer tells you, and especially not tier lists that include Lotus_Moon's input.

    And even if you take that seriously, changes nothing from what I said. WE require a lot of skill to be played to their best and that's why many people think they are bad when they really aren't.
  • Draxynnic#3149Draxynnic#3149 Registered Users Posts: 11,434

    Draxynnic said:

    The last tier list I saw, which consulted with top MP players, disagrees with you. Wood Elves were placed just above rock bottom (Bretonnia).

    Play some MP instead of trusting uncritically what some YTer tells you, and especially not tier lists that include Lotus_Moon's input.

    And even if you take that seriously, changes nothing from what I said. WE require a lot of skill to be played to their best and that's why many people think they are bad when they really aren't.
    I think there is a degree to which the APM count required for the basic tactics is something that's going to play into its MP viability. Someone who's spending a lot of their time on micro required for basic tactics has less opportunity to spend time making the best use of abilities, responding to things the enemy might do like dodging spells or redeploying in response to an outflanking maneuver, pulling off outflanking maneuvers of their own, or just regularly surveying the battlefield looking for things to respond to or exploit. Even the best players are going to have some limit to their attention as long as the battles are being fought in real time, and the more micro devoted to managing the basic battleplan, the less that can be devoted to responding to changing circumstances.
  • MonochromaticSpider#5650MonochromaticSpider#5650 Registered Users Posts: 2,172

    ArneSo said:

    ArneSo said:

    Basically everyone agrees they're broken but at the same time they aren't actually missing that much from their official roster. They never got that much attention so no one can shout from the rooftops that they want x or y unit because they don't exist. CA will have to make them up.

    This is the same problem Bretonnia has.

    They're not really broken, just limited and lackluster, campaign-wise.
    Their mechanics are absolutely broken. They were fun back in the day but right now they are unplayable.

    Outposts need to work like pirate coves. WE are an isolationistic race and no map painters that conquer Bretonnian Castles to live in towers made of stone.

    Their whole campaign is pointless and lorebreaking right now.

    WE living in Dwarf Karaks or Empire Giant Cities? No thank you...
    That isn't broken though. The campaign design always sucked and it's outdated since it's so old but the army plays well.
    - To recruit units, research tech and to upgrade the Oak you need Amber

    - you get all your Amber from conquering Settlements which are just weak outposts

    - you loose Amber if you loose outposts

    - so you have to babysit your outposts all the time.

    - what Leads to a super defensive campaign where you just run between your little outposts to defend them.

    - that makes Amber a very very unreliable resource that is more annoying than actually enjoyable.


    That is what I would call a broken campaign.

    CA already said they don’t like how Amber work so they will obviously fix it one day.
    Turning outposts into secrets hideouts (like they should be) similar to pirate coves would solve the problem.
    You wouldn’t have to protect your baby outposts anymore and also not lose Amber all the time what completely destroys your economy.

    Instead you could travel around the world and go on wild hunts everywhere from Naggaroth to Lustria to have a good time.
    That’s how WE should be and not like they are right now.
    Lol is this how people play Wood Elves? No wonder people complain about them.

    I have completed several Wood Elf campaigns and they remain my second favourite faction. Sometimes I go to Ulthuan to fight the High elves and take the Sword of Khaine, sometimes I stay home and fight Bretonnia, sometimes I go to the Badlands and fight Greenskins. You can go anywhere you want easily.

    Their economy relies on raiding and razing settlements. Outposts dont generate much except ports and the port tech. At first you may struggle to protect them but there is no need, early priority should be making as much money as possible, not gaining Amber. For Durthu, smashing through Parravon and Bretonnia is standard, for Orion cutting south for Mirangliano, Sartosa and Skavenblight is really good since all three have full stack garrison, give thousands in gold and 2 Amber each.

    Wood elves are far from unplayable, in fact I like the variance they have at the moment. Do you help the order races so you can get Amber later as allies? Or do you raid and raze them to bits for money then invade later with 5 stacks for rapid conquest?

    Problem is you cannot win by being truly isolationist.
    The one small problem here, is that you're basically playing greenskins with pointy ears. And while I know that it works, I just have a really hard time handling my woodies like that. It just feels wrong.
  • Draxynnic#3149Draxynnic#3149 Registered Users Posts: 11,434
    Eh. It actually fits fairly well. Wood Elves in the fluff aren't empire builders, but they do engage in a lot of raiding. They just call it a Wild Hunt instead...

    The campaign does require amping this up a bit, but let's face it, a campaign you could win without leaving Athel Loren probably wouldn't be all that interesting.
  • MonochromaticSpider#5650MonochromaticSpider#5650 Registered Users Posts: 2,172
    Draxynnic said:

    Eh. It actually fits fairly well. Wood Elves in the fluff aren't empire builders, but they do engage in a lot of raiding. They just call it a Wild Hunt instead...

    The campaign does require amping this up a bit, but let's face it, a campaign you could win without leaving Athel Loren probably wouldn't be all that interesting.

    It's not that I disagree with a bit of raiding and some outwards aggression being perfectly reasonable for the Wood Elves. It's just that when you're burning the entire old world down to the ground and eradicate everything, the difference between a somewhat discrete Wood Elf hunt and the frenzy of pillaging and murder that is a Waaagh! becomes academic.
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