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CA's comments on the lopsided quality of LP's

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  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    edited April 2020
    @Draxynnic

    "I don't see a problem with the "different campaigns for different preferences" thing. Sometimes, you want to run a relatively quick campaign of under a hundred turns rather than a 300+ turn marathon. Nakai's campaign being "short", therefore, is not something I consider to be inherently a bad thing."


    I don't have a problem with it. Variation is a really good thing in a game like this. The problem is that Mitch was using it in this context as a bs excuse for half of the DLC's being lackluster.

    I don't mind Nakai having a relatively short main campaign, but the problem is that there isn't really any substance within it, less than 100 turns is a joke and the final battle is A. way too OTT and B. It doesn't even work. You can't kill Markus's heroes for good, they're immortal and doing the final battle shows you a cutscene of the men returning home but it doesn't destroy their factions as a result.

    You cannot affect change. you have 2 objectives and both are hollow, then you're done, no structure for his entire campaign after that and no interesting mechanics to keep you around, beyond the vassal which is atrocious and outright broken.

    Short/long campaign's should be optional and if you're gonna make them real short, you need to add in some long term goals after the fact so that people who wanna stick around, can. Or at the very least, give the faction fun mechanics that make you wanna stick around for their sake alone.

    Nakai's campaign right now isn't just 'short' its a novelty that wares off after 1 playthrough.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    @Draxynnic

    If Nakai had no vassal and instead he was the vassal of all the other real LM factions, then you'd have a long term goal there: keep all your fellow LM alive.

    CA could build on this in multiple ways:

    - give Nakai Bonuses dependant on which Faction he's helping out. Is he helping out Tehenhauin or a Skink faction? then he could get buffs to those units and some abilities or special units related to them. Is he helping Mazdamundi? he gets buffs to Slann and so on.

    - Give Nakai the objective of returning the LM civilization to its former glory, not just defending its current survivors but also resurrecting dead LM factions and reinstating old temple cities (something that should come in the WH3 Lizardmen Rework anyway)

    - Let him teleport back and forth from Albion to Lustria and back (like he did in the lore)

    - give him a home base like "the heart of the Jungle", similar to the Oak of Ages, which would give his faction way more survivability and again, give you more long term goals if you choose to peruse them.

    - Similar to Malus Darkblade, Nakai should be able to secure Vortex resources for the other LM factions, but unlike Malus, this could be optional.

    - Similar to the Tahuknids from Total War Attila, as Nakai goes around liberating factions and bequeathing territory, eventually, there could come a point where the other Lizardmen factions offer you every single settlement you've liberated/gifted in confederation. Meaning, once you reach a certain point, you have the option to become a settled faction and consolidate all you've gained.

    - similarly, It'd be pretty cool if you had the option to go feral, go off the books and become some kind of savage warlord of the Jungle. Creating your own little state but also p*ssing off the other Lizardmen.

    - The Lizardmen of the Dragon Isles are feral Lizardmen. So Is Nakai. CA could potentially flesh out both of these at the same time and give Nakai an alternate roster that doesn't have any Slann or temple Guard or anything like that, but has more feral, berserker type units. Less Rypperdon/cold one/terradon riders and more just the feral creatures themselves.

    These are just a few examples of how his faction could have been fleshed out to be more interesting and more in line with Wulfhart. You could have still had the relatively short storyline, but things like these would keep people actually playing, give them a hook to stay on if they want and give them a taste of something they cant get anywhere else in WH2, so they'd have to replay it, even if they didn't get past the short main story.
  • Mogwai_Man#4978Mogwai_Man#4978 Registered Users Posts: 6,059
    I'm still waiting for Grimgor to be "Da Best". Not that I have my hopes up though.
  • Pandabaron#6593Pandabaron#6593 Registered Users Posts: 268
    I don’t think the AMA comment was even about a ‘lack of quality’ for Tehen. I think most of the reason why CA might have thought Tehen looked average against Ikit is because of the massive amount of backlash at the time for not including either Nakai or Gor-Rok. (So much so that we may well have got both at once with next LP just because of it) There were reams of debate on the issue of which one of the two lizardmen lords fans would get, and we got neither. I’m sure CA felt a little crestfallen at realizing that they had banked on LL’s that were not anywhere near crowd favourites. I’m sure I could count the people who actually wanted/expected Tik on a single hand. But turns out his campaign was great for an FLC.

    I too much preferred playing Tehen than Ikit, the campaign is much harder so he didn't Feel at all ‘average’ to me. A harder campaign is always more fun for me, I still play him now. it was much better than Ikit nuking any army into oblivion imo.
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,108

    neodeinos said:

    I loved Tehens LP and disliked Ikit.

    It's that simple, some folk will like one side and others will like the other.

    I like Tehenhauin too and I just said I've never gotten into Ikit's campaign but this is not a matter of opinion its a matter of quality and consistency.
    Exactly, objectively there is a disparity in the quality of the content. It's most likely not intentional though.
    What objective measure are you using?
    Did you enjoy getting 50 sacrifices per battle and having to grind out loads and loads and loads of battles just to complete the sacrificial pyramid? Personally I found that rather tedious. And then there's the difference in number of ROR units. Ikit just has more, since he has normal unlocks and then workshop unlocks on top, where Tehen only has those from sacrifices. Blessed spawns makes up for it somewhat, but you can't control your blessed spawn quests.

    Expansion is another question as well. Ikit really isn't having problems with confederating the other Skaven factions, because they're all rather far away and if they don't want to confed then oh well, no big deal. T is boxed in with a whole lot of Lizardmen around him and if they decide to not want to confederate then you get into a weird situation. It makes very little sense that they don't, since T is chosen by their deity, but there's no faction mechanic to help it along and WH2 diplomacy is what it is.

    And of course there's the general level of usefulness of the lord-specific units. Ikit's units are generally extremely useful. They serve a strong purpose. Arguably even too strong, but at least there's some point to having them.

    The units added with Tehen? Hunting packs are okay early game, but they're very mediocre due to rubbish pathfinding and short range. By the time they're done with their tippy-tappy shuffle-in-place dance routine, the target melee unit has closed ground. Red skinks? Decent'ish early game melee infantry, but you just can't buff them enough that they're even half-decent for mid-game and they are horrendous on VH and legendary. AI bonuses combined with the red skinks having no defense to begin with is just brutal.

    When one campaign is hell on wheels and everything just works and there appears to be a meaning in everything and the other feels like a disjointed mess that wasn't playtested much at all and the added stuff appears to be random bits and pieces that are held together with shoe-strings and duct tape, I personally would not reach the conclusion that similar levels of effort were put into the campaigns.

    That all being said, I do think that T's campaign is now fairly decent. Once you start playing the follower lootbox game and get your building costs down to flat zero, you start to go places. I just wish I didn't have to start fighting other lizardmen factions to expand. It feels so damn wrong potentially having to murder Gor-Rok and Mazda.
    I never said Tehen can't be improved?

    VH and Legendary are supposed to stuff with balance so you can't complain about that. With Tehen they were fine on Hard. Now with fluffy brawny Kroxigors? Easy.

    If you're not min maxing Tehens units add a lot more. Ikits units were fantastic additions, but you could build armies around Tehens.
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  • RikRiorik#9890RikRiorik#9890 Registered Users Posts: 12,088
    As always I am on hand and ready to call absolute bullexcrement on anything that says Tehenhauin is in any way shape or form a lesser quality LL. To be honest outside of the story driven elements of Wulfhart’s campaign Tehenhauin is my favourite DLC LL for TWW2 and I had an absolute BLAST playing him, using the all new Skink armies as well as using the Sacrifices. This at release when you didn’t get showered in captives for sacrifices and it mattered more when you used your buffs.

    On the other hand it took me approximately a year before I played any meaningful amount with Ikit because I simply found his mechanic a little boring.

    Nakai is also the best Horde out there and in terms of Hordes the single greatest leap they’ve made on them. With a few kinks though.

    Malus however got the short end of the stick though but to be frank Clan Eshin’s mechanic feels like little else than a constant food, money and free levels pinata which in and of itself is also incredibly boring. You might think there are loads of options too but in reality all but a small handful are clearly suboptimal.
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  • RikRiorik#9890RikRiorik#9890 Registered Users Posts: 12,088
    Enforest said:

    LMAO CA saying that Cult of Sotek campaign is "hard". Have they actually launched the Tehen campaign at least once outside of the testing dev build?

    Vortex, launch build was a relatively hard start. Admittably if you knew what you were doing and wiped out the starting enemy quickly you gained control procent ver your campaign. But it still required a few hard battles.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,108
    RikRiorik said:

    Enforest said:

    LMAO CA saying that Cult of Sotek campaign is "hard". Have they actually launched the Tehen campaign at least once outside of the testing dev build?

    Vortex, launch build was a relatively hard start. Admittably if you knew what you were doing and wiped out the starting enemy quickly you gained control procent ver your campaign. But it still required a few hard battles.
    When it came out it was deliciously hard for me at least. Took quite a few hours of trying things.

    LM are a campaign I'd really like to do sans supply lines. It opens up a lot of builds if you don't need to Saurus and Dino Spam. Not-Moses Skink is probably their most interesting character for me, though I have a thing for the whole religious warrior trope.
    "It's no fun fighting people weaker than you." - The Beast

    "There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla

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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,388

    I don’t think the AMA comment was even about a ‘lack of quality’ for Tehen. I think most of the reason why CA might have thought Tehen looked average against Ikit is because of the massive amount of backlash at the time for not including either Nakai or Gor-Rok. (So much so that we may well have got both at once with next LP just because of it) There were reams of debate on the issue of which one of the two lizardmen lords fans would get, and we got neither. I’m sure CA felt a little crestfallen at realizing that they had banked on LL’s that were not anywhere near crowd favourites. I’m sure I could count the people who actually wanted/expected Tik on a single hand. But turns out his campaign was great for an FLC.

    I too much preferred playing Tehen than Ikit, the campaign is much harder so he didn't Feel at all ‘average’ to me. A harder campaign is always more fun for me, I still play him now. it was much better than Ikit nuking any army into oblivion imo.

    I don't think there was any backlash with Tehen being the P&W lord - in fact, there'd probably have been more backlash if he wasn't.Tehen was the lord that everybody basically knew was coming, because who else would you use in a rivalry pack with skaven? It was just the question of who would be the FLC. Some people had their hearts really set on Gor-rok or Nakai. Conversely, there are some people who really enjoy Tik, so I don't think we can really say CA made the wrong call there.

    Tensions were probably also heightened by the fact that back then we didn't know that Lizardmen were going to get a second installment at all, let alone so soon. We knew there was a Slann update planned that wasn't included with P&W, but it was a while before we had any indication that this would come alongside a lord pack rather than an independent FLC fix.
  • Lin_HuichiLin_Huichi Registered Users Posts: 483
    I dont see a problem with Mitchs response. I bought the last 3 lord packs and enjoyed the sides people complain about immensely.

    P&W I mostly bought for the units. The Ancient Salamander and Hunting packs are some of my favourite units. Tehen I havent played outside of confederation but his skink buffs are insane. I'm fighting off the Chaos invasion in Norsca as Spirit of the Jungle currently with Tehen, and he only has redcrested skinks chameleons and salamanders but the army demolishes the Chaos hordes.

    Again H&B I bought for the Dread Saurian. That unit is my favourite in the Lizardmen roster and Nakai is my second favourite LL. His campaign is very fun and I've never had a problem with it, done about 5 campaigns now as Nakai. The way he gets blessed units really sets him apart from other LM factions. As a horde you can go anywhere and fight anyone, you dont need to protect your vassal.

    Early on allies will attack your vassal because Wirik is weak. But the massive garrison ensures enemies take forever to take territory from them while Nakai is blitzing 2 or 3 settlements per turn. Once your vassal gets 20 or more settlements most other factions leave them alone, including your allies. I have 15 allies as Nakai for 30 turns now and none have attacked my vassal, who owns Norsca entirely.

    In S&B I got for the Medusa initially. Obviously the model looks incredible and drew my eye but Malus/Tzarkan campaign is really interesting. Malus can basically fight without an army if you spec him right, but you need to cover ground so other armies are needed. Then there is a balance between no replenishment and godlike Malus and replenishment and a weaker Malus.

    I never play Skaven but my brother has played all I didnt and he says Ikit and Snikch are very strong and fun campaigns. Markus campaign I did not like as much as Nakai. It was ok and interesting but I find Empire meh overall anyway.

    I'm not saying those campaigns cant improve, and CA can go back and add to them like with Tehens sacrifices. Malus just needs a few tweaks so the changes are not so jarring, maybe Nakai can give settlements to other Lizardmen etc.
  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 1,533
    edited April 2020
    Tehen Vortex start was certainly hard and challening, especially in the first turns. Clan Fester comes at you with some pretty mean early-game stacks, which you have to defeat with a relatively weak Skink army. The Ark of Sotek literally carries you in the early game.
    ME start is a whole different story, and especially today with Ordertide, it really is easy and anti-climatic. His Skaven World War just doesn't work in ME unfortunately (another big reason why game 3 needs a full Lustria...).

    Anyways, i've always loved Tehen's fluff and couldn't wait to play him. Honestly, i really enjoyed the multiple campaigns because i love him and his Skink army quite a lot. I think that the idea and concept behind his campaign is awesome, but i do agree that with just a few small tweaks his campaign could've been a lot better. The Skaven World War is an awesome idea and the sacrificial pyramid is great and had a lot of potential. Arguably, i find the pyramid way more unique and compelling than Ikit's Workshop. The former has you thinking and deciding what to do ever X turns, the latter really is just a click and forget mechanic. Everything in the Workshop is a straight up buff so everything's a no brainer (and dont' get me wrong i love Ikit specifically because he's so bonkers).

    However, what i would have preferred is the following:

    - Sacrifices needed to stack from the get go. On release it absolutely made no sense that no matter how many Skaven you killed, you got 50 sacrifices everytime. This limited his sacrifice play SO MUCH. I immediately downloaded a mod that made them scale with casualties, and the campaign became SO much more fun, with so much interaction with sacrifices, the pyramids and its bonuses. Luckily, CA has gone back to this and fixed it, but i'm still baffled that it initially got released that way.
    -
    - Honestly, i do agree with the lack of unique ROR's for his faction. It really made perfect sense to give him unique thematic ROR's. There were tons to choose from, from his actual army in the End Times. As it is, it's kind of weird having regualar RoR's locked behind sacrifices. And its even more awkward now since the H&B ones aren't, so he's got a bit of both. He really just needed 4-5 unique but basic reskins and 90% of the complaints would have been gone. And nah, i don't really count Blessed Spawnings. That's a very random mechanic shared with every LM faction.

    - i do agree with the final Sotek spell being extremely underwhelming compared to Ikit's infinite amount of nukes he can get. Especially back when sacrifices were locked at 50. It took SO long to get to the top and the spell was so not worth it at all. As is, its quicker for sure but it's still quite a disappointing spell to use. I wish it had been made differently, ahve it be way more impactful and gratifying to use. Now it's basically a "whatever" thing, it's not the ultimate goal to reach.

    Having said that, i might start another Tehen campaign now, cause at the end of the day he's just too awesome.


  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    @John_Kimble

    I wouldn't be quite so flattering as you, but I think that's one of the most reasonable takes I've heard on Tehenhauin. I think most of us who complain about him only do so because we want him to be the best he can be.

    I agree there is some deliberation with his sacrifice pyramid and it does cause you to think ahead, but the issue is that they aren't that impactful or unique at the moment and none of them are permanent, so whether you're on turn 1 or turn 100, you've seen no permanent gains to your campaign.

    The closest thing you get is unlocking the higher tiers but even then, you're constantly fighting an uphill battle, grinding for sacrifices and the ultimate payoff of the pyramid is a mostly broken spell that costs like 1000 sacrifices.

    He also suffers from the same problem as Skarsnik: both of them are meant to be focused on a traditionally weak unit of their faction (Goblins/Skinks) and for some reason, in WH2 both Skarsnik and Tehenhauin treat this as an obstacle to be overcome, rather than a strength that only they have.

    Scarsnik is worse because the main objective of his campaign is to take 8 peaks so he can get his Orcs back, like 'oh thank christ I don't have to use these stupid goblins anymore' which is so backwards.

    Both of these factions should be almost completely dedicated to Skinks/Goblins and they either need new Skink/Goblin units that are viable into the late game, or they need to get more and more buffs for these units as they progress in their campaign until they become late game viable.

  • Broggan123#5513Broggan123#5513 Registered Users Posts: 54
    IMHO, skaven needed a buff to the until roster desperately and we saw that. The mechanics are incredible, totally overshadowed the existing LLs. Who would do a Queek campaign now?

    I think the Lizardmen were in a much better state going into the DLC. Having a harder Teh campaign was fine, the mechanics were not as engaging but it compares favorably to some earlier lord packs.

    Nakai was disappointing. I really want to love it. Going to try it in ME again...
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,388
    edited April 2020
    Broggan said:

    IMHO, skaven needed a buff to the until roster desperately and we saw that. The mechanics are incredible, totally overshadowed the existing LLs. Who would do a Queek campaign now?

    I think the Lizardmen were in a much better state going into the DLC. Having a harder Teh campaign was fine, the mechanics were not as engaging but it compares favorably to some earlier lord packs.

    Nakai was disappointing. I really want to love it. Going to try it in ME again...

    The Lizardmen were better on release, but still had problems - missing a key unit niche in Salamanders and Razordons, Slann not being worth taking, and having campaign mechanics that are lackluster overall. Two of those got fixed, and the sacred spawning bug was fixed, but the Geomantic Web is still pretty lackluster. Both LM and skaven have had two packs, but skaven have gone from being the TWW2 core race that was in the worst shape to being the one that was in the best shape, while Lizardmen have pretty much consistently remained in third place while other races have moved around them. If High Elves get a good DLC this time around, Lizardmen could slip into last place.
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