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I May Have Discovered Why Chaos Dragons Suck

AerocrasticAerocrastic Registered Users Posts: 485
edited August 2022 in Warhammer Battle Feedback
So, there's a running inside joke that with Chaos Sorcerer Lords on dragon mounts, the battle can look great but as soon as you land it you lose. That's because he always gets stuck, gets bursted, routs, and basically just dies after he lands. Now, this isn't really an issue if it were solely a player-end problem, however there are a couple of reasons why you can't use this dragon the same way as a dark elf sorceress on a dragon for example.


Chaos dragons as far as I can tell are missing a critical attack animation that every other dragon has: the leap.
Why is this important? The leap animation is what lets dragons get a double hit on charge, and will occasionally isolate a single entity in a blob or free the unit from dense clusters of infantry or light cavalry. Instead, when attempting to cycle charge this unit, it will land, perform one of the slow-ish tail thwaps, and then summarily spend enough time on the ground to get stuck if your opponent is attentive. In other words, you land your dragon anywhere, he dies. This is also in addition to major issues with his statline.

Normal chaos lord on a dragon - statline is fine, but the pendant of slaanesh and filth mace are one pump chump items. Dragons should never be in combat long enough to recharge these, and since chaos dragons can't heal, if he is in combat that long, he's probably already dead or about to die. Remove the recharge in melee condition and with a fix to the animation he should be a competitive contender with Kholek who punches harder but doesn't have breath attacks or flies.

Chaos Sorcerer Lord Chaos Dragon base price 2100
70 Armor
65 LD
46 MA (fire attacks)
40 MD (technically 45 because of evasion)
520 WS
45 CB

Supreme(TM) Sorceress Black Dragon base price 2300
80 Armor
75 LD
46 MA
50 MD
520 WS
50 CB


Chaos Lord Chaos Dragon base price 2300
70 Armor
75 LD
54 MA (fire attacks)
44 MD
550 WS
50 CB

Melee Dreadlord Black Dragon base price 2300
80 Armor
80 LD
54 MA
52 MD
520 WS
50 CB


My proposition would be +10 LD, +4 MA, +2 MD, +5 CB and +200 cost alongside an animation fix.

Unrelated to dragons, the shadow hero sorcerer is the only one that keeps the evasion ability on a manticore. Is this intentional?
Post edited by CA_Will#2514 on

Comments

  • HSK#4606HSK#4606 Registered Users Posts: 4,475
    Nice thread. +1
  • alpaca2alpaca2 Registered Users Posts: 31
    edited April 2020
    After these changes Chaos Dragons still suck.
    Chaos Lord Chaos Dragon will have base price 2500 (100 more than Star Dragon)
    70 Armor (10 less than Star Dragon)
    85 LD (5 more than Star Dragon)
    58 MA (2 less than Star Dragon)
    46 MD (8 less than Star Dragon)
    550 WS (30 less than Star Dragon)
    55CB (5 more than Star Dragon)
    pay 100 cost for +5CB -10Armor +5LD -2MA -8MD -30WS -735HP?
    DE Black Dragon Lords also need some buffs (except Malekith) , because they can not be healed like other SEMs.
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Registered Users Posts: 485
    alpaca2 said:

    After these changes Chaos Dragons still suck.
    Chaos Lord Chaos Dragon will have base price 2500 (100 more than Star Dragon)
    70 Armor (10 less than Star Dragon)
    85 LD (5 more than Star Dragon)
    58 MA (2 less than Star Dragon)
    46 MD (8 less than Star Dragon)
    550 WS (30 less than Star Dragon)
    55CB (5 more than Star Dragon)
    pay 100 cost for +5CB -10Armor +5LD -2MA -8MD -30WS -735HP?
    DE Black Dragon Lords also need some buffs (except Malekith) , because they can not be healed like other SEMs.

    I'm saying that chaos lord dragons should stay the same, it's only the sorcerer lord which needs a direct buff
  • alpaca2alpaca2 Registered Users Posts: 31

    alpaca2 said:

    After these changes Chaos Dragons still suck.
    Chaos Lord Chaos Dragon will have base price 2500 (100 more than Star Dragon)
    70 Armor (10 less than Star Dragon)
    85 LD (5 more than Star Dragon)
    58 MA (2 less than Star Dragon)
    46 MD (8 less than Star Dragon)
    550 WS (30 less than Star Dragon)
    55CB (5 more than Star Dragon)
    pay 100 cost for +5CB -10Armor +5LD -2MA -8MD -30WS -735HP?
    DE Black Dragon Lords also need some buffs (except Malekith) , because they can not be healed like other SEMs.

    I'm saying that chaos lord dragons should stay the same, it's only the sorcerer lord which needs a direct buff
    Sorry for my mistake.
  • The_real_FAUST#6885The_real_FAUST#6885 Registered Users Posts: 2,144
    Good thread! Agree.
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,928
    edited April 2020
    I have a different idea. Remove double attack animation from other Dragons. Why should you have a double attack in the first place? That's a 1000 damage attack for free.

    Then add 5LD to Sorcerer lord on a dragon.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited April 2020

    I have a different idea. Remove double attack animation from other Dragons. Why should you have a double attack in the first place? That's a 1000 damage attack for free.

    Then add 5LD to Sorcerer lord on a dragon.

    Exactly. SEMs with obnoxious shoving animations that allow them to jump out of surrounds is a problem to be solved, not a privilege to be shared.
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,364

    I have a different idea. Remove double attack animation from other Dragons. Why should you have a double attack in the first place? That's a 1000 damage attack for free.

    Then add 5LD to Sorcerer lord on a dragon.

    I have a different idea remove double attack animation from all the charecters and mosnters that get it, gotrek, sknitich, arinesa, dragons, and many other monsters and characters.
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,928
    edited April 2020

    I have a different idea. Remove double attack animation from other Dragons. Why should you have a double attack in the first place? That's a 1000 damage attack for free.

    Then add 5LD to Sorcerer lord on a dragon.

    I have a different idea remove double attack animation from all the charecters and mosnters that get it, gotrek, sknitich, arinesa, dragons, and many other monsters and characters.
    I agree. Absolutely no reason to have a double or triple attack animation. I would guess that doubling or tripling damage is a bug, not a feature and certainly don't think bug should be introduced to other units instead of fixing it.
  • Odysseus95Odysseus95 Registered Users Posts: 303
    CA loves their multiple attack animations *laughs in Gotrek*.
  • mightygloin#2446mightygloin#2446 Registered Users Posts: 6,270
    edited April 2020

    The leap animation is what lets dragons get a double hit on charge

    Finally i see someone else openly mention this double attack thing. It makes flying SEMs even more devastating than they are. Like 1k massive damage in second after charge-landing.

    I have a different idea. Remove double attack animation from other Dragons. Why should you have a double attack in the first place? That's a 1000 damage attack for free.



    Not just dragons, but Gryphons etc. too.

    Some land entities like Nakai also have this double attack on charge issue, but the target has to be slow and fat like Thorgrim as far as i've noticed.

    I have a different idea. Remove double attack animation from other Dragons. Why should you have a double attack in the first place? That's a 1000 damage attack for free.

    Then add 5LD to Sorcerer lord on a dragon.

    I have a different idea remove double attack animation from all the charecters and mosnters that get it, gotrek, sknitich, arinesa, dragons, and many other monsters and characters.
    Yeeeeees agree with this too, so much agreement today B)
  • JDog91JDog91 Registered Users Posts: 526
    Chaos dragons have been a huge disappointment from the day TWW1 was released. They just feel like a sponge, and I totally agree that the sorcerer really struggles with it.

    I like the changes proposed, I also entirely agree about the obnoxious leaping animation maybe needing a change in general with many large entities. There's kind of two sides to it, one is that it makes single targets a nightmare to hit (They often leap and totally miss the target) and it makes the survivability of large monsters far too reliable as they totally ignore any mass around them. If anything, the leap should be an engagement animation and not used at all in the middle of combat as it is. It rewards sloppy placement of SEM's, punishes players who surround efficiently and generally feels like a get out of jail free card, and monsters all seem to spam it more than other attacks.

    Anyway, I kind of feel like the Chaos Dragon should be somewhere between moon and star dragons. Either that, or it should have unique properties such as armour reduction or MA/MD reduction considering its supposed to have corrosive breath on top of the tzeentchian flames.
  • HSK#4606HSK#4606 Registered Users Posts: 4,475
    Let me add, you can retreat your dragon back in the air through your units. It's not impossible.
  • Asamu#6386Asamu#6386 Registered Users Posts: 1,661

    alpaca2 said:

    After these changes Chaos Dragons still suck.
    Chaos Lord Chaos Dragon will have base price 2500 (100 more than Star Dragon)
    70 Armor (10 less than Star Dragon)
    85 LD (5 more than Star Dragon)
    58 MA (2 less than Star Dragon)
    46 MD (8 less than Star Dragon)
    550 WS (30 less than Star Dragon)
    55CB (5 more than Star Dragon)
    pay 100 cost for +5CB -10Armor +5LD -2MA -8MD -30WS -735HP?
    DE Black Dragon Lords also need some buffs (except Malekith) , because they can not be healed like other SEMs.

    I'm saying that chaos lord dragons should stay the same, it's only the sorcerer lord which needs a direct buff
    They're both pretty bad really. Chaos lord dragons < dark elf dragon lords for the same cost though. They could use a small buff; if anything, the Chaos lord dragon should be a bit stronger.
    Sorc lords need more though.

    A Chaos Sorcerer lord on dragon being worse than a Sorceress lord on dragon in almost every way makes no sense though. On TT, the only thing the Sorceress lord would have going for it is leadership; Chaos sorc lords were way stronger in melee, and the dragon stats were the same, except that the Chaos dragon had 2 breath attacks (making it a bit better).

    It's weird that the DE sorceress on dragon has +10 melee defense, +10 armor, a faster attack interval, and +5 CB. It also has 12 more hp (but that's insignificant).

  • AENARlONAENARlON Registered Users Posts: 887
    Wouldn't removing the double attack as some are suggesting simply make all dragons worthless like the chaos one? Seems a bit throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
  • AENARlONAENARlON Registered Users Posts: 887
    Asamu said:


    It's weird that the DE sorceress on dragon has +10 melee defense, +10 armor, a faster attack interval, and +5 CB.

    I'd actually suggest just giving them a price and stat swap. It would make much more sense for the supreme sorceress to be 200 cheaper but with these stat disadvantages.
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,928
    Chaos Dragon is not worthless. One of the reason it sucks is low leadership of Chaos Sorcerer. On the other hand, should Sorcerers have same leadership as combat lords?

    Why Chaos Dragon Lord is not often picked is because it is very expensive and there is not much support, either in the air or from the ground, and of course, mediocre magic support at best (no tempest, no healing...).


  • Kayosiv#7489Kayosiv#7489 Registered Users Posts: 2,871
    Asamu said:



    A Chaos Sorcerer lord on dragon being worse than a Sorceress lord on dragon in almost every way makes no sense though. On TT, the only thing the Sorceress lord would have going for it is leadership; Chaos sorc lords were way stronger in melee, and the dragon stats were the same, except that the Chaos dragon had 2 breath attacks (making it a bit better).

    It's weird that the DE sorceress on dragon has +10 melee defense, +10 armor, a faster attack interval, and +5 CB. It also has 12 more hp (but that's insignificant).

    Chaos dragons have actually have +1 attack compared to a standard moon/black dragon to represent the extra head. So not only is the guy riding it more than a match for the dark elf naked lady, but the chaos dragon should be equal or stronger in every way as well.
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