unpopular opinion: No Pre-Order Race

Ferestor#5771

So guys let me talk before you bring the pitchforks and the torches.

If we go with the information from the AMA and the way CA had done there DLC's than we can come to this conclusion.

First let's look at WH1 DLC's. The main DLC were the WE, BM, FLC Bretonnia and Norsca. WE and BM have brought there own mini-campaign wich were not well liked so CA dismissed this idea for WH2. They had 2 LL at the beginning (BM gets one free with WE) and then came Norsca with 2 LL as an pre-order. So from this we can conclude that in WH1 DLC races get 2 LL.
In WH2 the race DLC were TK and VP with each 4 LL. So we the player will expect 4 LL for the pre-order race pack.

Second the pre-order must fit in the campaign from the game before. So in WH1 Norsca was not a problem. But let's look at WH2. The main candidate would be Southern Realms (DoW) or Kislev (to a lesser). Where would they fit in the map?
If we go with 4 LL for the pre-order race, where would you put them in Vortex. And that is the important factor, the new race must be fully playable in Vortex, because that's what WH2 core campaign is. In ME it would be no problem but in Vortex i don't see 4 new LL and a new race.

Then we must look at WH3 core races. We don't know what races we will get but we all know that Chaos Dwarfs, Ogre Kingdom and Demons of Chaos will come. In WH1 and WH2 we got 4 core races at the beginning and WH3 needs a "good" race to counter the chaos and destruction factions. I think here would fit Kislev. So now we have 4 core races. If we look then at the DLC races we all expect at least 2 race packs, because that's what we got in every game. there lies the next problem. We don't have enough races left if we get an pre-order race for 2 new races. In my opinion the DLC races will be Cathay and Southern Realm (DoW).

The next point is the AMA. CA said that they would like to bring all WH1 races to WH2 standard. That would include the WE, the BM and Norsca. The WoC i think get there overhaul with WH3. That's 3 races that would then need an overhaul in WH2. Norsca personally i think don't need a big overhaul. I think that they function well enough. But they could need an new LL. They also said that there will be 2 more LP to come. That was before the new LP was announced, so we must assume that we only get 1 more LP.

And then we look at the last LP for WH2. I think we can all agree that it looks like CA will bring all WH2 core races to 6 LL. LM are done and with the new DLC the HE are also done. This leaves the SK and DE with each 1 LL. Also it looks like CA want's to bring all core races from WH1 into Vortex.

So all this brings me to the following conclusion. The next LP will finish the WH2 core races to 6 LL and brings one WH1 core race into the Vortex campaign.
My bet here is on Skaven (Throt) vs Dwarfs (Thorek) with FLC Dark Elves (Rakarth). My reasons here are that Clan moulder is prominent in the game today and is one of the last great Skaven clans missing. The Dawi would make sense as an nemesis. Also Thorek would fit good in ME now. Rakarth would make sense, because we already got the Master Beastmaster and he would be the LL.

That would then leave only the VC missing in Vortex for the WH1 core races. Here i think CA could make an FLC (maybe Everchosen event) I hope for Neferata, because she is already mentioned in the game today.

That then would leave the BM/WE and Norsca missing. And here i see the pre-order. A second WE&BM&Norsca DLC with overhaul for all three races. (more for BM and WE) As this is then a replacement for an race pack we should expect 4 LL. I hope here for 2 WE LL (Twilight sister and Drycha), 1 BM LL (Taurox) and 1 Norsca LL(Egil Styrbjorn). For units i think BM need the most. WE and Norsca could get maybe one new Lord and Hero and some new units. BM need a lot more units then the other 2 factions. For FLC in this i'm torn. From a faction perspective it would make sense to include the WoC (Valkia the Bloody) but this would only make sense if we get a first look in the new Chaos mechanic, wich i think will come in WH3. Maybe the FLC will be the missing VC LL.


So that's my thoughts on why we won't get an pre-order race. I know that's this is an unpopular opinion but in my opinion it's the most realistic one. What are you thinking on this? And please leave the torches and pitchforks at home. ^^

Captain_Rex#1635

I think the preorder will be a semi unique race for the WH3 stand alone campaign.

We don’t have space on the vortex for new races and Kislev fits better as a core race and DoW as a 20€ campaign pack.

Good choices for a cheap 10€ preorder would be:

Legions of Nagash
Not really a unique roster but of Characters and mechanics.

Cult of Ulric
Could be part of the empire or a semi unique race with confederation options.
The Cult of Ulric list is to long for a LP but not enough for a completely new race.
Perfect for a DLC on the same level as Norsca.


Other options for minor races would be:
- Kurgan
- Hobgoblins

davedave1124#4773

I don’t think we’d go for 4 LLs.. it would be 2 just like Norsca.

Ferestor#5771

Hobgoblins i don't know if there should be a own race. They should be part as the Chaos Dwarfs and maybe have a unique LL with GS units (so like Archon).

Are Kurgan not like Norsca only with more horses?

SerPus#7395

Ferestor said:

Second the pre-order must fit in the campaign from the game before.

Just because it happened once doesn't mean that it's some kind of a rule.

55JoNNo#4925

ArneSo said:

I think the preorder will be a semi unique race for the WH3 stand alone campaign.

We don’t have space on the vortex for new races and Kislev fits better as a core race and DoW as a 20€ campaign pack.

Good choices for a cheap 10€ preorder would be:

Legions of Nagash
Not really a unique roster but of Characters and mechanics.

Cult of Ulric
Could be part of the empire or a semi unique race with confederation options.
The Cult of Ulric list is to long for a LP but not enough for a completely new race.
Perfect for a DLC on the same level as Norsca.


Other options for minor races would be:
- Kurgan
- Hobgoblins

We're definitely seeing Toddy at some point. Question is, if it's implemented before WH3 it would have to be as content for Mortal Empires rather than game 2?

Captain_Rex#1635

Ferestor said:

Hobgoblins i don't know if there should be a own race. They should be part as the Chaos Dwarfs and maybe have a unique LL with GS units (so like Archon).

Are Kurgan not like Norsca only with more horses?

NO!

The Hobgoblins fighting for Chaos Dwarfs are just slaves and mercenaries.

The real Hobgoblins have their own nation called the Hobgoblin Khanate, which is the largest empire in the warhammer world.

Ferestor#5771

SerPus said:

Ferestor said:

Second the pre-order must fit in the campaign from the game before.

Just because it happened once doesn't mean that it's some kind of a rule.

But a DLC for WH2 must fit in WH2 and Vortex is the core of WH2. Everything else doesn't make sense.

55JoNNo#4925

Ferestor said:

Hobgoblins i don't know if there should be a own race. They should be part as the Chaos Dwarfs and maybe have a unique LL with GS units (so like Archon).

Are Kurgan not like Norsca only with more horses?

I agree with you on both points here. Kurgan could be cool but they are thematically very similar to the Norscans. Less snow, more tanned and more in the conan archetype. What I would have loved was a barbaric race of humans that weren't affiliated with Chaos in any way; this is why I liked the concept of Albion so much.

SerPus#7395

Ferestor said:

But a DLC for WH2 must fit in WH2 and Vortex is the core of WH2. Everything else doesn't make sense.

And we don't even know yet if the pre-order DLC will be for TWW2 and not for TWW3.

Ferestor#5771

ArneSo said:

Ferestor said:

Hobgoblins i don't know if there should be a own race. They should be part as the Chaos Dwarfs and maybe have a unique LL with GS units (so like Archon).

Are Kurgan not like Norsca only with more horses?

NO!

The Hobgoblins fighting for Chaos Dwarfs are just slaves and mercenaries.

The real Hobgoblins have their own nation called the Hobgoblin Khanate, which is the largest empire in the warhammer world.

Okay, but are there unique enough to be a own race. They are only slightly different then GS o am i wrong?

Ferestor#5771

SerPus said:

Ferestor said:

But a DLC for WH2 must fit in WH2 and Vortex is the core of WH2. Everything else doesn't make sense.

And we don't even know yet if the pre-order DLC will be for TWW2 and not for TWW3.

Ok you got a point there.

Captain_Rex#1635

goliath55 said:

ArneSo said:

I think the preorder will be a semi unique race for the WH3 stand alone campaign.

We don’t have space on the vortex for new races and Kislev fits better as a core race and DoW as a 20€ campaign pack.

Good choices for a cheap 10€ preorder would be:

Legions of Nagash
Not really a unique roster but of Characters and mechanics.

Cult of Ulric
Could be part of the empire or a semi unique race with confederation options.
The Cult of Ulric list is to long for a LP but not enough for a completely new race.
Perfect for a DLC on the same level as Norsca.


Other options for minor races would be:
- Kurgan
- Hobgoblins

We're definitely seeing Toddy at some point. Question is, if it's implemented before WH3 it would have to be as content for Mortal Empires rather than game 2?

We already got Markus in WH2, Toddy and Emil Valgeir would better fit for WH3.

And again, just because Norsca was for WH1 doesn’t mean the next preorder bonus will be for WH2.

Norsca was the only TW Preorder bonus like that.

There is no space on the vortex map anymore for a new race, especially not if we get at least 1 more LP + FLC.

Daruwind

Neferata as Skull event makes no sense. So far we got stuff like Gone Giant, Krell, Amethyst Wizard....we would get unit, hero or mount..definitely not whole FLC LL with new mechanics...

Throt (moulder clan) ,FLC being DE (Rakarth..or Tullaris, Shadowblade...) make sense. Dwarfs not. They already got update (albeit being the worst one) thus getting second makes no sence. So at best FLC LL as Dwarfs. Forget all runic magic etc for all Dwarfs...Plus much bigger sense makes Dwarfs wc Chaos Dwarfs and other option in Wh3. There is just not enough mountains/dwarfs in Vortex. Better put there beastmen as CA won´t do more then singular update per DLC ....one DLC for Beastmen, WE update with Wh3 pre-order. Beastmen and WE cannot be in one DLC to be meaningful

Bloodydagger#9716

Not for me. Ive been saying its going to be another LP with a rework.

Captain_Rex#1635

Kelefane said:

Not for me. Ive been saying its going to be another LP with a rework.

Wouldn’t mind that to be honest.

If the preorder bonus would be another WH2 vs WH1 crossover for the WH3 stand alone map it would actually be pretty neat.

Rob18446

ArneSo said:

I think the preorder will be a semi unique race for the WH3 stand alone campaign.

We don’t have space on the vortex for new races and Kislev fits better as a core race and DoW as a 20€ campaign pack.

Good choices for a cheap 10€ preorder would be:

Legions of Nagash
Not really a unique roster but of Characters and mechanics.

Cult of Ulric
Could be part of the empire or a semi unique race with confederation options.
The Cult of Ulric list is to long for a LP but not enough for a completely new race.
Perfect for a DLC on the same level as Norsca.


Other options for minor races would be:
- Kurgan
- Hobgoblins

That seems rather unlikely, while they did that for the WH1 preorder with the WoC it was fairly universally panned, while Norsca as a WH1 race for the preorder was considered to be a great success, cant see them picking the less successful option.

Red_Dox#2328

1. NOBODY promised 4 LLs for a preorder race in the first place. And it does not make sense either, no matter what. Norsca had two, which was the custom then anyway WoC had three if we remember rigth and will probably get more in the far away future of game#3. But Beastmen already have stocked up to three thanks to FLC early, so Norsca could too. If wanted (which obviously so far CA does not).
   
2. That brings us to "best candidate is now Dogs of War". I agree here. And we have the Tilean New World Colonies around
   
   to drop one LL there. And then can still scatter the second around the map for Vortex. In ME we can even drop one of in the New World and keep one around Tilea itself. Future FLCs could then still add more, if needed/wanted.
   
3. Also keep in mind that the Vortex & Mortal Empire map had some upgrades already. It can be done again for example the flesh out the New Colony region or just find a place in the Lustria Thunderdome again. Or the flooded Southlands. God beware we drop LLs like Grom directly on the Ulthuan coast and disturb the fragile ecosystem for the endangered species there -.-
   

-----Red Dox

Daruwind

Your example of Throt vs Dwarfs + DE FLC ...there is no update ,rework ....so it would be wasted LP. Beastmen, WE still would need rework and you cannot fit both into one.

zuendl86

Well we have more than enough races for WH 3...

Southern Realms (they also have more than enough space on the Vortex map)
Kislev
Ogre Kingdom
Chaos Dwarfs
4 Chaos Gods (I hope so)


Next as @SerPus said… only cause it happend once it doesn´t mean this is a rule…

This bothered me since the first DLC came out...

After the first DLCs for Warhammer I everyone was like oh after a Race Pack there will be one Lord Pack cause we had it once before?!

Ferestor#5771

Red_Dox said:

1. NOBODY promised 4 LLs for a preorder race in the first place. And it does not make sense either, no matter what. Norsca had two, which was the custom then anyway WoC had three if we remember rigth and will probably get more in the far away future of game#3. But Beastmen already have stocked up to three thanks to FLC early, so Norsca could too. If wanted (which obviously so far CA does not).
   
2. That brings us to "best candidate is now Dogs of War". I agree here. And we have the Tilean New World Colonies around
   
   to drop one LL there. And then can still scatter the second around the map for Vortex. In ME we can even drop one of in the New World and keep one around Tilea itself. Future FLCs could then still add more, if needed/wanted.
   
3. Also keep in mind that the Vortex & Mortal Empire map had some upgrades already. It can be done again for example the flesh out the New Colony region or just find a place in the Lustria Thunderdome again. Or the flooded Southlands. God beware we drop LLs like Grom directly on the Ulthuan coast and disturb the fragile ecosystem for the endangered species there -.-
   

-----Red Dox

The 4 LL are standard for WH2 and if this DLC is for WH2 then we should except this much.

Daruwind said:

Your example of Throt vs Dwarfs + DE FLC ...there is no update ,rework ....so it would be wasted LP. Beastmen, WE still would need rework and you cannot fit both into one.

Last LP didn't have a rework either if i remember correctly. This would give CA enough time to make the rework for BM and WE.

zuendl86 said:

Well we have more than enough races for WH 3...

Southern Realms (they also have more than enough space on the Vortex map)
Kislev
Ogre Kingdom
Chaos Dwarfs
4 Chaos Gods (I hope so)


Next as @SerPus said… only cause it happend once it doesn´t mean this is a rule…

This bothered me since the first DLC came out...

After the first DLCs for Warhammer I everyone was like oh after a Race Pack there will be one Lord Pack cause we had it once before?!

Please no Monogods. A LL for each god would be my choice.

Captain_Rex#1635

Rob18446 said:

ArneSo said:

I think the preorder will be a semi unique race for the WH3 stand alone campaign.

We don’t have space on the vortex for new races and Kislev fits better as a core race and DoW as a 20€ campaign pack.

Good choices for a cheap 10€ preorder would be:

Legions of Nagash
Not really a unique roster but of Characters and mechanics.

Cult of Ulric
Could be part of the empire or a semi unique race with confederation options.
The Cult of Ulric list is to long for a LP but not enough for a completely new race.
Perfect for a DLC on the same level as Norsca.


Other options for minor races would be:
- Kurgan
- Hobgoblins

That seems rather unlikely, while they did that for the WH1 preorder with the WoC it was fairly universally panned, while Norsca as a WH1 race for the preorder was considered to be a great success, cant see them picking the less successful option.

Norsca was the only preorder bonus like that. I doubt that CA will repeat that again after the debacle.

Furthermore, what race could we get on the Vortex map? There is no space anymore.

WhySoSalty#3990

A Nagash "race" with Neferata would be not a bad choice but they lack the units.
Then we still have DoW and they have a huge roster, tons of LL and can be placed everywhere

Daruwind

GW making reworks of Kislev sounds exactly as if pre-order were in pre-production....one article about Ice Guard....because Katarina is all about Ice magic, second article about bears because Boris. It is lining up perfectly. GW is fleshing out content because CA is coworking with them. Exactly 2 LL large faction. Good one. Instant pre-order for Wh3 for many...

Captain_Rex#1635

zuendl86 said:

Well we have more than enough races for WH 3...

Southern Realms (they also have more than enough space on the Vortex map)
Kislev
Ogre Kingdom
Chaos Dwarfs
4 Chaos Gods (I hope so)


Next as @SerPus said… only cause it happend once it doesn´t mean this is a rule…

This bothered me since the first DLC came out...

After the first DLCs for Warhammer I everyone was like oh after a Race Pack there will be one Lord Pack cause we had it once before?!

There is no space for DoW on the vortex map.

DoW should get at least 4 LLs so a preorder bonus would be a waste.

They are the best option for a 20€ campaign pack

SerPus#7395

Reghis said:

Then we still have DoW and they have a huge roster, tons of LL and can be placed everywhere

That's another reason to make them either core or campaign pack faction.

Captain_Rex#1635

Reghis said:

A Nagash "race" with Neferata would be not a bad choice but they lack the units.
Then we still have DoW and they have a huge roster, tons of LL and can be placed everywhere

I also think that makes the most sense.
- Nagash
- Neffy
- Wallach
- Dieter Helsnicht
- The Nameless

The new factions should be for WH3 and not for the Vortex in my opinion.

gekj#8548

araby still in the race

Ferestor#5771

gekj said:

araby still in the race

maybe in WH4

Captain_Rex#1635

gekj said:

araby still in the race

HAHAHAHAHA

Red_Dox#2328

Ferestor said:

The 4 LL are standard for WH2 and if this DLC is for WH2 then we should except this much.

No. Becasue the preorder DLC ranges in the under 10€ price tag, while your 4 LL game#2 race DLC cost double.
So just cut it 50% back, aka 2 LLs at least

------Red Dox